Wuhan Coronavirus [Archive] - Page 4 - Professional Soldiers ®

Badger52

03-29-2020, 16:00

Just my opinion of courseI happen to agree with you. The main press apparatus do not seem (to me) to be differentiating in the things that count (literally) when doing numbers. It's as if they don't have anyone's campaign coffers to count anymore and are just trying to keep score.

A case is discovered from a traveller; then 8 cases are discovered that are now :eek: "community spread." Could be me but it seems that they aren't bothering much to cover that, as investigations continue, the numbers themselves are going to climb. It's one of those silly 1st grade counting things, no? This, coupled with the most vulnerable getting the sickest and, perhaps frankly, they came to the end of their life which coincides with how long someone on a vent is typically on one before succumbing. Thus, bump in the death total. (?)

Perhaps an oversimplifcation but if they weren't so busy trying to insure that they could keep "All Virus All the Time" content updated, perhaps they could endeavor to do as good a job as that one breakdown we saw recently from the Houston area. I frankly get more/better information from the local folks who are joined at the hip with the county health dept.

I don't think one particular thing (the rant du jour from the talking heads) is going to fix shit. PPE to the health care providers & first responders - anyone holding on to warehoused stocks of same will be put in stocks w/o sustenance on the National Mall. Go after the anti-malarial regimen, and get the rapid testing methods that look promising (e.g., the Abbott Labs proposal) out. Any bureaukrat in the way is fired.

And, also just my opinion, the big metro hive denizens don't have the first clue as to what it means to isolate.

[/rant]
:munchin

Last hard class

03-29-2020, 19:49

A point on death numbers.

It still ain't good - but not as bad as the press is pumping it up to be.

I think the number we should be focusing on is how many people are being hospitalized. After all, that’s the idea of flattening the curve. Unfortunately, The virus is going to do it’s job. But if the system is overwhelmed then we will lose people who could otherwise be saved.

For example, on Thursday I saw that NY city had about 5000 patients hospitalized.
No idea how many it can handle but that is the number that matters most IMO.

LHC

PSM

03-29-2020, 20:34

For example, on Thursday I saw that NY city had about 5000 patients hospitalized.
No idea how many it can handle but that is the number that matters most IMO.

LHC

I saw something similar, but I'm also reading tweets and other direct sources that are saying that there are hospitals in NY that have no COVID-19 patients. Is there a reason (government order perhaps) that patients can't be transferred to other hospitals?

Airbornelawyer

03-29-2020, 21:38

The first confirmed case of COVID 19 in the U.S. was on 20 January 2020. As of March 29, 2020, 69 days later, the CDC is reporting 122,653 confirmed cases, although this is likely a low-ball estimate due to a lack of widespread testing.

The first and second confirmed cases of H1N1 in the US were on 15 April 2009 and 17 April 2009. On 25 June 2009, 71 days after the first confirmed case, the CDC estimated the US had reached one million cases of H1N1.

That seems significant. Again, you can argue that the case estimate is way too low for the coronavirus, but I don't recall widespread testing and quarantining in 2009, so arguably the H1N1 estimate was also a low-ball.

The questions I have are: does this reflect an effective flattening of the curve with regard to COVID 19, or is COVID 19 not nearly as virulent as H1N1? Or am I missing some other factor(s)?

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-pandemic-timeline.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

abc_123

03-29-2020, 23:38

ABC_123 my prayers are with you and your family.

It's disturbing to me that the hospitals are not allowing family in, patients need advocates.

If you are positive for COVID 19 and are in the hospital you will either survive or die on your own. No family. No human contact. Alone.

Sure, attended by caring Nurses (who will have issues later on), but no human contact, only infrequent contact wile suited up. You will live or die by yourself in your quarantined bubble.

frostfire

03-30-2020, 03:14

1. Hydroxychloroquine 200mg twice a day for 5 days
2. Azithromycin 500mg once a day for 5 days
3. Zinc sulfate 220mg once a day for 5 days

Thank you for the post. I had to refresh my patho and pharma.
This vid has been helping a lot (don't judge the dude by his outfit!)

COVID-19 | Corona Virus: Treatment, Prognosis, Precautions
youknowhatdotcom/watch?v=rdoN_XsHWBI

It will also help understand the course of care for our loved ones that the doc is explaining in greek ;) ie. ARDS --> SIRS --> MODS --> ....

Ret10Echo

03-30-2020, 05:40

Box

03-30-2020, 09:11

I saw something similar, but I'm also reading tweets and other direct sources that are saying that there are hospitals in NY that have no COVID-19 patients...

A family member in Atlanta talked with my wife - concerned because of local Atlanta news about the catastrophic state of COVID-19 where me and my wife live...
...which, is simply not true.

I've talked with my brother who lives in Atlanta and while it isn't good, he certainly didn't describe his local situation as catastrophic mess that I am seeing on the news where I live. My mom over reacts to everything and even she has a less than apocalyptic outlook on her local situation.

So... is it just me or does this type of disparity in reporting only make for a bigger shit show ??
American culture pressured me into finishing my degree - my degree path forced me to take statistics - statistics class forced me to acknowledge that numbers don't lie, but it also reinforced the fact that PEOPLE with numbers lie and misrepresent those numbers as though there is no tomorrow.

Because of so much hanging at the house I WATCHED the segment when Dr Fauci made his comments about 200,000 possible deaths from COVID-19
I also watched when he added the caveat that such modeling is based on worst case scenario algorithms. Oddly, no mention of such additional statements in the news. Only news reports that the governments top COVID doc just said that over 200,000 Americans are going to die from COVID-19.
It's so fucking hyper sensationalized that even PAO statements now mention the foretasted 200,000 threat statistics as though its a done deal.

Is it serious - you bet your ass this is serious. A pandemic viral infection is ALWAYS serious. There is a reason why every flu season people make such a big deal about being vaccinated - proper health care measures are well known for extending human life. The annual flu season KILLS PEOPLE. A pandemic virus KILLS PEOPLE.

The problem is, our culture has deteriorated into one that demands instant gratification, practices savage oneupsmanship, and willingly submits to the rabid impulse to politicize and overhype EVERYTHING...
...so here we are.

Whats real ??
Somebody is wrong and someone is reporting inaccurate information.
Who knows - maybe politicians and the media are telling us the truth and our family members, friends, Twitter, Facebook, and other randomly located direct sources are the ones that cannot be trusted. Disease is a very personal issue so I would tend to favor personal reporting as far more reliable than any source of "truth" that I get from a modern media outlet. FOX, MSDNC, CNN, CBS, ABC - the network alphabet reporting has become nothing more than white noise to me.
People are sick and dying from an angry virus - that much is fact - every single discussion beyond that quickly disposes itself of fact in order to keep the discussion going.

Interesting times for sure.

My garage redesign is going nicely. Since I usually keep my freezer full even when I'm not being threatened by a pandemic apocalypse, I'm going to spend my time at home smoking some delicious meats for diner this week.

Hopefully I won't get sick and die.

miclo18d

03-30-2020, 09:14

frostfire

03-30-2020, 09:31

Not sure if this has been posted yet. I can’t go thru each post.

This is a great resource for understanding the WCV and all of the factors in treating and preventing the spread.

Most notable are the vids containing the chloroquine references, to understand how and why it works (think Zinc)

You do need to sign up (free) on the site, otherwise you might find the vids somewhere else on YT.

https://www.medcram.com

I can vouch for the YT videos. I've been following along since COVID day 1. Sometimes he gets really deep in the weeds but I highly prefer his objective, just the facts, reporting than anything in twitter, MSM, facebook, etc. I've been using his ventilator series to refresh my skill working with one

Pete

03-30-2020, 09:54

Fake news at it again. Must pump the fear factor.

CBS News Caught Using Footage from an Italian Hospital to Describe Conditions in New York City (VIDEO)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/cbs-news-caught-using-footage-from-an-italian-hospital-to-describe-conditions-in-new-york-city-video/

"...CBS News painted a dire picture from New York City this week in their coronavirus coverage.

On Wednesday morning CBS aired this footage from a New York hospital.

The footage matches SKY News video from inside an Italian hospital from Sunday March 22....."

Badger52

03-30-2020, 10:30

Not sure if this has been posted yet. I can’t go thru each post.Thanks bigtime for that. Tagged.
I wonder how many 'signups' they've had in the last month with a professional perspective checkbox of 'Other/None'. Good resource.

Stobey

03-30-2020, 11:20

This post isn't about numbers. It is first-hand info from an ER doc in New Orleans. This may be very interesting to all docs here. (Personally, I don't like what I've read here, particularly the "bilateral interstitial pneumonia".)

"I am an ER MD in New Orleans. Class of 98. Every one of my colleagues have now seen several hundred Covid 19 patients and this is what I think I know..."

https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3102444

doctom54

03-30-2020, 11:31

I saw something similar, but I'm also reading tweets and other direct sources that are saying that there are hospitals in NY that have no COVID-19 patients. Is there a reason (government order perhaps) that patients can't be transferred to other hospitals?

Two actually.
First it ties up an ambulance, and civilian ambulances can only transport one at a time, that then has to be appropriately cleaned.
Second, the smart way to care for these patients is in cohorts where they are all together. It minimizes the number of HCW's exposed and saves on PPE.
We have two facilities and plan on putting all COVID patients in one facility in adjoining rooms.

Box

03-30-2020, 11:43

Wiseman

03-30-2020, 11:45

I'm wondering what the level of ACE2 expression is in COVID-19 patients that shrug off the virus with the sniffles/bed rest vs the ones that are on ventilator.

Ret10Echo

03-30-2020, 12:11

Nice - nothing like freedom of the press.
...and my sister in law still cant figure out why her local news reported that the hospitals where I live are being overwhelmed.

Truth in News died with Walter Kronkite

Click bait

Old Dog New Trick

03-30-2020, 13:22

I'm wondering what the level of ACE2 expression is in COVID-19 patients that shrug off the virus with the sniffles/bed rest vs the ones that are on ventilator.

Great question.

So if I read that right and by all means someone check my understanding -

It’s not my hypertension that makes me more susceptible it’s my ACE2 inhibiting “Statin” drugs used to treat my hypertension that might make me more susceptible.

While reading up on that it is also what “Ibuprofen” does as it binds to ACE cells and causes it to be more susceptible to the protein spikes in SARS-Cov-2.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6485/1444.full

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8/fulltext

Wiseman

03-30-2020, 13:37

Great question.

So if I read that right and by all means someone check my understanding -

It’s not my hypertension that makes me more susceptible it’s my ACE2 inhibiting “Statin” drugs used to treat my hypertension that might make me more susceptible.

While reading up on that it is also what “Ibuprofen” does as it binds to ACE cells and causes it to be more susceptible to the protein spikes in SARS-Cov-2.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6485/1444.full

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8/fulltext

It could be something (in this case compounds) that upregulates ACE2 expression or that some people have more of those receptors naturally. It is definitely something that they could screen for if they take a lung biopsy, but that sounds very intrusive on a person who already has trouble breathing. They would have to do that on people who died and on who have recovered (voluntarily).

WarriorDiplomat

03-30-2020, 13:37

Social movement theory in action using the media....of course the virus is real but separating the wheat from the chaff is critical unfortunately the media is what it is.....yeah for freedom of the press. Now ask yourself who is in charge of the social responses?

The media[edit]
The media plays a crucial part in delivering social reaction. According to Stanley Cohen, there are three processes that the media expresses: Exaggeration and distortion, prediction, and symbolization.

Exaggeration and distortion[edit]
In this process, the media can "over-report" with their choice of words. For example, the word "disturbance" can be used to mean having a noise complaint due to loud music next door and a group of people acting violently by throwing rocks and setting vehicles on fire. The wording of the stories can make a minor problem seem more serious than it really is. This can make people overreact in response to relatively minor problems and may lead them to believe that disturbances, acts of terrorism, riots, and instances have the same meaning.[2][page needed]

Furthermore, the headlines used by the media might cause society to act irrationally to a story about minor issues. They can be misleading and can report information that has nothing to do with the actual story. Negative words such as "violence" can be used when there was no violence involved. The media can also point to specific characteristics that are the reason for the crime that was committed. For example, a story can discuss a murder, but the headline might focus on the hoodie the culprit was wearing. Emphasizing the hoodie will draw attention to what the person was wearing instead of the murder that took place. This causes people to become paranoid and overreact when they see someone wearing clothing that looks suspicious.[citation needed]

Prediction[edit]
This is where the media speculates that an incident might occur again. The media can report that an event will occur in the future, which is not always the case. People involved describe what should be done the next time it happens and what precautions should be taken. Predicting the future can cause people to constantly think about what could go wrong and lead to catastrophe. This can cause major stress and cause people to have social panics more often.[citation needed] However, there are certain situations where making predictions is necessary for security, such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters.

Symbolization[edit]
This involves stereotypes, words and images that possess symbolic powers that can cause different emotions. Symbolization can be described in three processes. It includes words such as "deviant" and, as Cohen would say, "it becomes symbolic of a certain status."[2][page needed] By this he means that the word represents something meaningful. Then the object, which can include clothing, represents the word. Therefore, the object can also symbolize the status. Neutral words can symbolize an event or emotion. For example, people can have specific feelings connected to the word "Hiroshima" that remind them of the bombing that occurred there. Furthermore, the use of labels given to a person or word puts them in a certain group in society. Those individuals that are in that group are viewed and interpreted based on their label.

Symbolization, exaggeration and distortion are similar in the sense that they both use misleading headlines that creates negative symbols. For example, images can be posed to seem more dramatic or intense than they really are. Through both of these procedures, it is easy to cause people to come to conclusions that the news and photographs always display reality.[2][page needed]

Penn

03-30-2020, 13:46

Just in...Lets pray this is a go.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2020/03/30/johnson--johnson-is-already-ramping-up-production-on-its-1-billion-coronavirus-vaccine/#78662755aa66

twistedsquid

03-30-2020, 13:57

Reports of the constant heat blumes in Chinese crematoriums combined with the reduced cell phone activity around Wuhan suggest the Chinese death tolls are above 40,000?

PSM

03-30-2020, 15:24

Two actually.
First it ties up an ambulance, and civilian ambulances can only transport one at a time, that then has to be appropriately cleaned.
Second, the smart way to care for these patients is in cohorts where they are all together. It minimizes the number of HCW's exposed and saves on PPE.
We have two facilities and plan on putting all COVID patients in one facility in adjoining rooms.

The second part makes sense, but as to the first, if the need actually arises, this is where the National Guard would come in to provide air transport.

JJ_BPK

03-31-2020, 11:10

I had this in the back of my head, as a home solution.
Additionally, I would like to hear from the Spurts, can a typical portable O2 generator as use by COPD patients also augment home use of respirators?

Can Sleep Apnea Machines Treat COVID-19 Patients?
Article by Don Ward Hackett March 15, 2020

Fact checked by Robert Carlson, MD + 2 Updated 03/24/2020 - 19:08

March 15, 2020 – The expanding pandemic of COVID-19 disease cases in the USA could overwhelm the nation’s hospitals, which would force doctors into making respirator allocation decisions given their limited availability.

As demand grows, hospitals could sterilize and reuse ventilator tubing rather than discarding it after every patient.

And if supplies continue to run short, they could use transport ventilators or even positive airway pressure machines, similar to the devices sleep apnea patients use at home.

Furthermore, if demand continues to grow, hospitals could use sleep apnea machines, suggests George Washington University Law professor John Banzhaf, an MIT-trained engineer, and inventor.

Banzhaf suggested in an email newsletter distributed on March 15, 2020, the possibility of using existing CPAP (Continuous Positive Airway Pressure) machines, used to combat sleep apnea, as devices to help persons with respiratory problems due to coronavirus infection.

This potential use-case could fit especially in less serious cases which do not require the full power and sophistication of expensive hospital-type ventilator machines, says Banzhaf.

CPAP is a type of positive airway pressure, where the airflow is introduced into the airways to maintain a continuous pressure to constantly stent the airways open, in people who are breathing spontaneously. Positive end-expiratory pressure (PEEP) is the pressure in the alveoli above atmospheric pressure at the end of expiration.

CPAP is a way of delivering PEEP but also maintains the set pressure throughout the respiratory cycle, during both inspiration and expiration, said this NIH article published in May 2019.

Professor Banzhaf suggests these advantages of using CPAP machines:

the number of existing CPAP machines greatly exceeds the number of hospital ventilation machines,
they are simpler and less expensive to acquire,
manufacturing capability can be increased far more quickly,
CPAP machines, especially those with full-face masks, can provide a very significant increase in the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) a user can consume, and many can easily be adjusted to provide even higher air pressures than would ordinarily be required to overcome mild sleep apnea.
those most at risk of respiratory problems from the coronavirus virus are the elderly and/or have other medical problems - are also the population most like to already have and use CPAP machines already,
family members are therefore familiar with and comfortable with using them,
existing CPCP users could be asked to bring their units to the hospital where they might be used,
many CPAP units are used largely to limit snoring, and in some cases, users might be able to do without them in an emergency without risk of serious health problems such as cardiovascular events.

https://www.coronavirustoday.com/cpap-machines-treat-sleep-apnea

This is the 1st time I have seen articles from www coronavirustoday com. I hove no idea of the vilidity of content.

doctom54

03-31-2020, 11:25

I had this in the back of my head, as a home solution.
Additionally, I would like to hear from the Spurts, can a typical portable O2 generator as use by COPD patients also augment home use of respirators?

This is the 1st time I have seen articles from www coronavirustoday com. I hove no idea of the vilidity of content.

A really really bad idea. CPAP and BiPAP and Nebulizers all aerosolize the COVID-19 and make it much more transmittable. That is exactly what happened in WA state at the LTC facility.

O2 concentrators are fine.

twistedsquid

03-31-2020, 11:50

A really really bad idea. CPAP and BiPAP and Nebulizers all aerosolize the COVID-19 and make it much more transmittable. That is exactly what happened in WA state at the LTC facility.

O2 concentrators are fine.

Thanks for this. Im in arguments with my 83 year old mother who insists on donating and delivering her 2 CPAP machines after Coumo says the State will buy them.

Joker

03-31-2020, 12:02

mugwump

03-31-2020, 12:05

Grey = 7 days

36369

Badger52

03-31-2020, 12:14

A really really bad idea. CPAP and BiPAP and Nebulizers all aerosolize the COVID-19 and make it much more transmittable. That is exactly what happened in WA state at the LTC facility.

O2 concentrators are fine.That incident in WA I recall reading about. I would think that someone using an Albuterol nebulizer as a maint med could find an order to self-quarantine putting them between a rock & hard place. I suppose since the entire household comes under the quarantine it would be moot, but vigorous dispersion of the virus (if positive) while using a nebulizer can't be a good thing anywhere.

Further, our family doc & the wife's RT's advise against folks arbitrarily turning up their O2 concentrators due to potential "O2 flooding" if a person is a CO2 retainer, as I imagine many with COPD are. Leave this shit to the pro's; that's why RT's and Pulmo specialists get the big bucks, no?

TACJAM

03-31-2020, 13:52

A really really bad idea. CPAP and BiPAP and Nebulizers all aerosolize the COVID-19 and make it much more transmittable. That is exactly what happened in WA state at the LTC facility.

O2 concentrators are fine.

I use a bi-pap nightly and would like to understand this a bit more. Are you saying that if I were to have Covid-19 (with or without symptoms) and use the bi-pap, I am putting others in my household at more risk of infection?

ender18d

03-31-2020, 15:52

I use a bi-pap nightly and would like to understand this a bit more. Are you saying that if I were to have Covid-19 (with or without symptoms) and use the bi-pap, I am putting others in my household at more risk of infection?

Yes, your bipap will aerosolize your respiratory secretions and increase the risk of transmission, which is why we have essentially stopped doing BiPap in the ER.

-E

doctom54

03-31-2020, 16:55

I use a bi-pap nightly and would like to understand this a bit more. Are you saying that if I were to have Covid-19 (with or without symptoms) and use the bi-pap, I am putting others in my household at more risk of infection?

YES. BiPAP and CPAP turn a DROPLET transmitted infection into an AIRBORNE transmitted infection.

» What is transmission by droplet contact?
Some diseases can be transferred by infected droplets contacting surfaces of the eye, nose, or mouth. This is referred to as droplet contact transmission. Droplets containing microorganisms can be generated when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks. Droplets can also be generated during certain medical procedures, such as bronchoscopy. Droplets are too large to be airborne for long periods of time, and quickly settle out of air.

Droplet transmission can be reduced with the use of personal protective barriers, such as face masks and goggles. SARS and COVID-19 are examples of diseases capable of droplet contact transmission.

» What is airborne transmission?
Airborne transmission refers to situations where droplet nuclei (residue from evaporated droplets) or dust particles containing microorganisms can remain suspended in air for long periods of time. These organisms must be capable of surviving for long periods of time outside the body and must be resistant to drying. Airborne transmission allows organisms to enter the upper and lower respiratory tracts.

Diseases capable of airborne transmission include:

Tuberculosis
Chickenpox
COVID-19 with CPAP, nebulizers, suctioning etc

Cynic

03-31-2020, 17:36

This is being used in the Detroit area as necessary. It converts the bipap to a closed ventilator system.
I am not an RT, just passing this along.

https://www.facebook.com/547215488788904/posts/1546176928892750/?vh=e&d=n

TACJAM

03-31-2020, 17:51

Yes, your bipap will aerosolize your respiratory secretions and increase the risk of transmission, which is why we have essentially stopped doing BiPap in the ER.

-E

Thank you for this information. I had not heard this before and will have to consider whether and how to modify my bi-pap usage.

Gypsy

03-31-2020, 17:52

Read this article today. Would this be any "better" for patients with the virus?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52087002

TACJAM

03-31-2020, 17:53

YES. BiPAP and CPAP turn a DROPLET transmitted infection into an AIRBORNE transmitted infection.

» What is transmission by droplet contact?
Some diseases can be transferred by infected droplets contacting surfaces of the eye, nose, or mouth. This is referred to as droplet contact transmission. Droplets containing microorganisms can be generated when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks. Droplets can also be generated during certain medical procedures, such as bronchoscopy. Droplets are too large to be airborne for long periods of time, and quickly settle out of air.

Droplet transmission can be reduced with the use of personal protective barriers, such as face masks and goggles. SARS and COVID-19 are examples of diseases capable of droplet contact transmission.

» What is airborne transmission?
Airborne transmission refers to situations where droplet nuclei (residue from evaporated droplets) or dust particles containing microorganisms can remain suspended in air for long periods of time. These organisms must be capable of surviving for long periods of time outside the body and must be resistant to drying. Airborne transmission allows organisms to enter the upper and lower respiratory tracts.

Diseases capable of airborne transmission include:

Tuberculosis
Chickenpox
COVID-19 with CPAP, nebulizers, suctioning etc

Thank you for this response. Very informative and, as I replied to ender, I will have to consider whether and how to modify my bi-pap usage.

JJ_BPK

04-01-2020, 13:11

Quandary:

It looks like some city-state-federal agencies are getting ready to recommend that EVERYBODY wear an N95 or equivalent mask any time they are out.

SO,, Due to the short supply, I started looking around to see if the "single-use" masks could be sanitized for reuse?

Two scenarios:

1) The medical community is desperate, but they may have auto-claves and other methods to affect the cleaning. Stuff us pions don't have access to.

2)If the rumor is correct & enacted, the rest of us need a mask plan that does not acerbate the current shortage for the medical communities.. Additionally, we may be wearing the mask and not be infected nor near anybody that is.

While looking, I found this gem from 2009.

Opine??

Please remember, I do have a BSA 1st Aide Badge, so be nice with your comments :munchin

Ann Occup Hyg. 2009 Nov; 53(8): 815–827.
Published online 2009 Oct 4. doi: 10.1093/annhyg/mep070
PMCID: PMC2781738
PMID: 19805391
Evaluation of Five Decontamination Methods for Filtering Facepiece Respirators
Dennis J. Viscusi, corresponding author1 Michael S. Bergman,2 Benjamin C. Eimer,2 and Ronald E. Shaffer1,*
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Abstract

Concerns have been raised regarding the availability of National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)-certified N95 filtering facepiece respirators (FFRs) during an influenza pandemic.

One possible strategy to mitigate a respirator shortage is to reuse FFRs following a biological decontamination process to render infectious material on the FFR inactive.

However, little data exist on the effects of decontamination methods on respirator integrity and performance.

This study evaluated five decontamination methods

ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI)
ethylene oxide, vaporized hydrogen peroxide (VHP)
microwave oven irradiation
and bleach

Using nine models of NIOSH-certified respirators (three models each of N95 FFRs, surgical N95 respirators, and P100 FFRs) to determine which methods should be considered for future research studies.

Following treatment by each decontamination method, the FFRs were evaluated for changes in physical appearance, odor, and laboratory performance (filter aerosol penetration and filter airflow resistance).

Additional experiments (dry heat laboratory oven exposures, off-gassing, and FFR hydrophobicity) were subsequently conducted to better understand material properties and possible health risks to the respirator user following decontamination.

However, this study did not assess the efficiency of the decontamination methods to inactivate viable microorganisms.

Microwave oven irradiation melted samples from two FFR models.

The remainder of the FFR samples that had been decontaminated had expected levels of filter aerosol penetration and filter airflow resistance.

The scent of bleach remained noticeable following overnight drying and low levels of chlorine gas were found to off-gas from bleach-decontaminated FFRs when rehydrated with deionized water.

UVGI, ethylene oxide (EtO), and VHP were found to be the most promising decontamination methods; however, concerns remain about the throughput capabilities for EtO and VHP.

Further research is needed before any specific decontamination methods can be recommended.

Keywords: decontamination, filtering facepiece respirator, healthcare workers, N95 respirator, pandemic influenza, respirator reuse

link: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781738/)

Ret10Echo

04-01-2020, 13:53

UVGI and VHP are the ones I've heard being discussed

PSM

04-01-2020, 17:04

The N95 masks are reusable until damaged or air flow is restricted.

doctom54

04-01-2020, 18:14

Badger52

04-01-2020, 18:35

1) 2) Yes a 2 ply cotton masks keep you from infecting the others around you. The new data out of Singapore (A really great scientific study) show a lot of people are contagious for 1-3 days BEFORE they have symptoms.
Thanks for the input again Bac-si. Many of the photos I saw coming out of Singapore didn't feature the whole populace, en masse, wearing real sophisticated stuff but they were masked up. I cannot help believe that mitigated community spread and the numbers in Singapore seem to bear that out.

Possibly a "social impact" question but I wonder how much their culture plays into their cooperation in that matter, and how much the ego-driven rugged individualized nature of ours hinders it.

NB: I do NOT have a 1st Aid Merit badge from the BSA so h/t JJ.
:)

JJ_BPK

04-02-2020, 06:08

1) Yes we are desperate! You can NOT autoclave masks or a lot of the other PPE because it destroys it effectiveness.

It appears UV light and 70C heat will effectively rid PPE of the virus without damage but those studies are still on going.

Thanks, Doc..

I was thinking of purchasing or fabricating a UVC box sanitizer using OTC lights? This example is large enough for a cell phone and hearing aids, but I fear not large enough?

I am thinking the ability to sanitize "family" volume is a baseline (4-6 units at a time)?

Here is one example that suggests it can sterilize in 3 minutes: https://smile.amazon.com/Disinfection-Sanitizer-Disinfector-Smartwatches-Headphones/dp/B085KY1FJQ/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=UVC+light+box&qid=1585827019&rnid=2941120011&s=industrial&sr=1-5

Another example: https://smile.amazon.com/HH-Underwear-Disinfection-UV-CLED-Sterilization/dp/B085WT8SJ7/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=UVC+light+Disinfection+Box&qid=1585829389&sr=8-4

miclo18d

04-02-2020, 08:15

Some excellent info from a pulmonary specialist that works on the front lines.

https://www.*******.com/watch?v=YitWZj9QhdQ

Fill in the stars, you know the deal. YT.

BLUF: social distancing, wash your hands, don’t touch your face

Old Dog New Trick

04-02-2020, 09:33

Thanks, Doc..

I was thinking of purchasing or fabricating a UVC box sanitizer using OTC lights? This example is large enough for a cell phone and hearing aids, but I fear not large enough?

I am thinking the ability to sanitize "family" volume is a baseline (4-6 units at a time)?

Here is one example that suggests it can sterilize in 3 minutes: https://smile.amazon.com/Disinfection-Sanitizer-Disinfector-Smartwatches-Headphones/dp/B085KY1FJQ/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=UVC+light+box&qid=1585827019&rnid=2941120011&s=industrial&sr=1-5

Thanks all, when I woke up this morning I didn’t know I needed to buy a mini sterilization box but now I have two of them coming.

One for pocket items and one for oral hygiene items...for now. (I know hard to believe my wife and I have shared a water pic for years right?, but I used to kiss her too!)

The Reaper

04-02-2020, 10:35

I have heard that a UV Sterilizer will sterilize masks (and hard objects), with some caveats.

YMMV.

TR

Golf1echo

04-02-2020, 10:47

American ingenuity at work in many sectors currently. Medline has gotten approval for an ethylene oxide process for sterilizing masks.

https://www.medicaldesignandoutsourcing.com/medline-to-reprocess-n95-respirators-to-fight-covid-19-spread/

Also seeing many peer companies ( small textile) are repurposing to PPE...

hoot72

04-02-2020, 18:13

I am out in Malaysia at the moment.

The government enacted the Restricted Movement Act (MCO) on the 18th March and introduced a total lock down throughout the country.

-All businesses to close except essentials (supermarkets, pharmacies, convenience stores) who were/are allowed to open from 8am-5pm. All stores must institute temperature testing before entry and all customers need to line up 2 meters apart whilst waiting to get into the stores.

All stores must close by 5pm in our location (8pm in other locations).

Controlled numbers inside the supermarkets/stores at all times and shoppers have 15-20 minutes to complete their shopping and to line up to pay and to leave.

-All schools/universities/colleges closed

-Road blocks set up at all major roads leading in/out of the major towns/cities. Army has now joined in to help with manpower shortages to enforce the road blocks.

-Civilians not allowed 10km from their homes i.e. do your grocery shopping in your area and do not leave your area

-1 person per household allowed out to purchase groceries and meals if neccessary as there is a 1 person 1 car policy in place.

-All fuel stations only allowed open from 6am-2pm daily. Other locations 8am-8pm within the country.

-Food outlets only allow take away. Allowed open from 6am-5pm. All restaurants doing take out must close at 5pm.

-Face mask use highly recommended by all government/health agencies to reduce spread of the virus from infected to uninfected

-Families not allowed outside the home to walk/exercise. Need to do it within confines of the apartment or the home compound. Dog walking banned.

-Running outside solo banned.

-All parks closed.

-Airports have just shut down as the airline companies too have stopped flying now this past week.,

-Burger King, Pizza Hut, KFC,Dominos and McD are open from 9am-5pm daily (8-8 in other locations)>

This policy seems to be working...we are still getting infected cases on a daily basis and death rate is less than 1.7% and number of recoveries is increasing.

Most of the deaths within 50-90 years of age with health complications or weak immune systems. A few in the mid 30s or 40s. Obesity and underlying health issues also involved in the deaths.

We have about 40 deaths and about 1500-2000 cases only as spread has been contained "early."

Must say the Malaysian Health Department got their act together early on in early February and began preparing by screening vistors arriving/flying in and then starting to enforce a ban on passengers from China early on for our area. Our area has then gone and banned all foreigners from entering the state I am in by mid March and then banned all non essential travel.

The politicians (to their credit) also went ahead with the drastic lock down which I think has saved lives, draconian as it is.

We think the 3 week lock down will be extended till the end of April once it expires on the 14th April (it was extended from 18th March-to 31st March till 14th April).

I think we will be out of the lockdown in June.

hoot72

04-02-2020, 18:22

Thanks for the input again Bac-si. Many of the photos I saw coming out of Singapore didn't feature the whole populace, en masse, wearing real sophisticated stuff but they were masked up. I cannot help believe that mitigated community spread and the numbers in Singapore seem to bear that out.

Possibly a "social impact" question but I wonder how much their culture plays into their cooperation in that matter, and how much the ego-driven rugged individualized nature of ours hinders it.

NB: I do NOT have a 1st Aid Merit badge from the BSA so h/t JJ.
:)

South East Asian populace are "used" to using masks. We get hammered here annually by the bush fires in Indonesia and the haze/smog gets blown in our direction and the air becomes toxic so masks on during that period. Its been a norm since 1997.

So, to use the mask during this pandemic is not an issue. People are masking up and some aren't as they don't feel ill or feel they are infected. I was not using a mask for 2.5 weeks as I was not ill BUT, decided to start using a mask because people were giving me the evil stare when I went into supermarkets or to buy take out food..and it just felt akward.

The social belief here is mask up...as it will potentially save lives and stay home if you don't need to be out.

Now, the situation in Malaysia varies drastically to what is going on in Singapore.

Malaysia has many borders/many points of entry into the country so they decided to lock down as they could not contain the spread and feared if they closed off all airports and flights, the economy would tank. It has tanked thanks to the lock down BUT some states banned china flights and entry of foreigners and chinese citizens two weeks ago and have largely contained the spread.

But, the lock down will wipe out a large number of smaller small-medium enterprises, restaurants and that is the big debate going on here now and what the governmenbt is going to do to help SME's.

The entire country is closed down except for medical, hospitals, pharmacy's, courier companies, the post office, limited banking options (major banks have closed smaller branch's and are keeping limited few open in towns/cities if they have multiple branchs there), schools/universities closed, exams postponed.

Malaysia has followed the Wuhan model for the lockdown BUT, has taken a slightly less draconian attitude towards implementing the lock down.

Singapore on the other hand has taken a different approach; they are allowing schools to remain open, malls to continue to operate, restaurants to operate and businesses to carry on as normal BUT are:

1-encouraging people to stay home if they don't need to go out
2-have only 3 major entry points into the country by road/air and 1-2 entry points by sea from Batam/Indonesia so they can do testing at the borders.
3-banned short term visits/transits into the country. Either you fly in and enter and get tested or you stay out
4-Self isolation for 14 days if you are flying in from overseas
5-Mask up and use sanitizers to clean hands
6-Great emphasis on educating the populace on the do's and don'ts as far as avoiding getting infected.

Badger52

04-02-2020, 19:55

Whole post.Thanks for that. Interesting contrasts.

hoot72

04-02-2020, 19:58

Thanks for that. Interesting contrasts.

Thank you sir.

Wiseman

04-03-2020, 07:43

Potential lab responsible for outbreak.

https://www.*******.com/watch?time_continue=157&v=bpQFCcSI0pU&feature=emb_logo

I've been keeping an eye out for Zheng-Li Shi since this came to the US. Quick search on pub med with Shi ZL as keywords will list a lot of coronavirus studies in bats.

mugwump

04-03-2020, 08:24

Now, the situation in Malaysia varies drastically to what is going on in Singapore

Malaysia has followed the Wuhan model for the lockdown BUT, has taken a slightly less draconian attitude towards implementing the lock down.

Singapore on the other hand has taken a different approach; they are allowing schools to remain open, malls to continue to operate, restaurants to operate and businesses to carry on as normal

Singapore just announced a two week lockdown, with extensions likely. Contact tracing and isolation have failed.

The only way this ends, the only way, is when the susceptible population goes away: illness followed by immunity or death, or an effective vaccine. If you flatten the curve through isolation the disease pops up again as soon as you loosen up. But there's no other option except to let it rip through the population. And that’s politically impossible.

We'll see another serious wave this fall for that exact reason.

A vaccine is still at least a year away. Recent research papers confirm weak antibody response with late seroconversion during active disease, which leads to slow clearing of the virus and viral shedding for a week after symptoms go away. This is bad news for vaccine development. Not insurmountable, but...challenging. It’s not a slam-dunk that vaccines currently under development will work.

Our one shining hope is an antibody treatment that targets those receptor spikes on the virus. Lots of work going on in that arena. Those products should go into Phase I trials soon, and unless they kill a lot of people, into compassionate release immediately thereafter. It could be a game-changer.

Good luck to you and your loved ones.

hoot72

04-03-2020, 16:51

Singapore just announced a two week lockdown, with extensions likely. Contact tracing and isolation have failed.

The only way this ends, the only way, is when the susceptible population goes away: illness followed by immunity or death, or an effective vaccine. If you flatten the curve through isolation the disease pops up again as soon as you loosen up. But there's no other option except to let it rip through the population. And that’s politically impossible.

We'll see another serious wave this fall for that exact reason.

A vaccine is still at least a year away. Recent research papers confirm weak antibody response with late seroconversion during active disease, which leads to slow clearing of the virus and viral shedding for a week after symptoms go away. This is bad news for vaccine development. Not insurmountable, but...challenging. It’s not a slam-dunk that vaccines currently under development will work.

Our one shining hope is an antibody treatment that targets those receptor spikes on the virus. Lots of work going on in that arena. Those products should go into Phase I trials soon, and unless they kill a lot of people, into compassionate release immediately thereafter. It could be a game-changer.

Good luck to you and your loved ones.

Yes skipper, Op Circuit Breaker has been activated...no schools, all businesses to be shut down on the 7th April (allowing everyone time to get neccessary banking done on the 6th April and over the weekend as banks do operate at certain locations in key malls over the weekend and to allow people time to stock up on neccessary items) and only essentials allowed to operate.

They are following Malaysia's lead.

The State I am in within Malaysia will start to allow hardware stores, pet stores to open on Monday, Wednesday and Friday's for limited operating hours soon (not a national policy) but our lock down hours are from 5pm-6am meaning, everyone stays home/indoors during these hours unless you need to go to the hospital.

JJ_BPK

04-04-2020, 07:55

Ivermectin - Maybe one solution??

Coronavirus Australia: Ivermectin, Anti-parasitic drug kills COVID-19 in lab, Christine McGinn, AAP, news.com.auApril 4, 20207:58am

A single dose of an anti-parasitic drug could essentially remove all genetic material of the COVID-19 virus within 48 hours, an Australian-led study has shown,

An anti-parasitic drug available throughout the world has been found to kill COVID-19 in the lab within 48 hours.

A Monash University-led study has shown a single dose of the drug Ivermectin could stop the SARS-CoV-2 virus growing in cell culture.

“We found that even a single dose could essentially remove all viral RNA (effectively removed all genetic material of the virus) by 48 hours and that even at 24 hours there was a really significant reduction in it,” Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute’s Dr Kylie Wagstaff said on Friday.
link: (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-australia-ivermectin-antiparasitic-drug-kills-covid19-in-lab/news-story/615c435e56aefc4b704f4fd890bd4c2c)

Jon owns Comfort Farms
https://www.stagvetsinc.org/

Jon Jackson
3 hrs ·

Ivermectin is the only drug I give my pigs. When they are born and weaned I give them a shot to kill any parasites. They go into the socialization pen and before sending them to the market pen they get one more shot. Some folks point out that your herd can never be Organic with the use of this Anti-parasitic drug... But that's ok. When your animals free range they are exposed to nature and everything wants to survive. To include parasites. But they don't stand a chance with Ivomect. To hear and read how this can potentially be the answer for Covid is amazing. People ask me all the time... What should I invest in? I say invest in Agriculture. Invest in your local farmers. If they thrive... You thrive!

doctom54

04-04-2020, 09:03

.......

The only way this ends, the only way, is when the susceptible population goes away: illness followed by immunity or death, or an effective vaccine. If you flatten the curve through isolation the disease pops up again as soon as you loosen up. But there's no other option except to let it rip through the population. And that’s politically impossible.

We'll see another serious wave this fall for that exact reason.

Sadly, I agree completely!!!

Pete

04-04-2020, 09:04

Sohei

04-04-2020, 09:34

I have no doubt that could be the case. Just short of completely manufactured viruses, I believe what Solomon said many years ago..."There is nothing new under the sun." Mutations happen but there are a lot of existing drugs out there that could be effective against this virus, but those way smarter than I have to be willing to look at them -- much like some are.

doctom54

04-04-2020, 10:22

....Bac-si....:)

Thanks is has been 40 years since anyone called me that.

Trapper John

04-04-2020, 17:49

Dr Ralph Baric is the foremost thought leader on corona viruses. The following is the definitive word on this subject IMO

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ralph+baric+corona+virus&&view=detail&mid=CB3037B2AC3DCA6FBE23CB3037B2AC3DCA6FBE23&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dralph%2Bbaric%2Bcorona %2Bvirus%26%26FORM%3DVDVVXX

Wiseman

04-04-2020, 22:13

I'm just wondering how many old school drugs will be effective on this virus - and then find out they would have been effective against other SARS/MERS type stuff?

But they were never looked at because there is no money in old drugs.

Link to JJ's story

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/anti-parasitic-drug-kills-covid-19-in-lab/ar-BB1277Ux?li=AAgfYrC

That is something I've wondered about as well. One thing I learned while working in the industry is that no one really does a negative screen on small molecule compounds. They look for compounds that are lets say are specific for one protein in a pathway that they are trying to target. They'll examine the SAR (structure activity relationships) for the few compounds that look promising.Then, they'll ask themselves if it binds to anything else in that pathway by generating knockouts for that protein in a cell line that they chose for screening and also do binding assays which all take a very long time. If the answer is no and there is no toxicity to healthy cells, then they move further to mouse studies and then eventually to humans. They will not try to do binding assays with the small molecule on any protein that is not involved in some way with the target of interest simply because they are curious. It comes down to how many people you have on your team and how much time you have to finish a project. This is why you get compounds that are essentially multi-purpose but are not known because they have not been evaluated before they hit the drug market.

Flagg

04-05-2020, 02:24

Razor

04-05-2020, 17:52

Dr Ralph Baric is the foremost thought leader on corona viruses.

Is that an on-line certificate, or do you have to go through the Dept. of Education for that title?

Old Dog New Trick

04-05-2020, 19:32

Is that an on-line certificate, or do you have to go through the Dept. of Education for that title?

I got mine when I finished 300-F1. In fact every 18D leaves SOMC with the knowledge to not only win the hearts and minds but save their teammates from every conceivable illness or injury - and sometimes they just can.

On a serious note, why is it we don’t have a vaccine from 2002 and 2003 SARS, 2005 MERS or 2009 Versions of coronavirus? Why is this time different?

Why is this time DIFFERENT?

Pete

04-05-2020, 20:02

Well, today's updates have been posted and daily new cases and daily new deaths are both down.

Looking at the hockey stick graphs none of them have the sharp rocketing up everyone was predicting three weeks ago.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

doctom54

04-05-2020, 20:22

On a serious note, why is it we don’t have a vaccine from 2002 and 2003 SARS, 2005 MERS or 2009 Versions of coronavirus? Why is this time different?

Why is this time DIFFERENT?

They didn't last long enough to be a pandemic threat; MERS 214 cases, SARS total 8,000 cases, so no vaccine was developed.

NO $$$ in it.

Old Dog New Trick

04-05-2020, 20:29

They didn't last long enough to be a pandemic threat; so no vaccine was developed.

NO $$$ in it.

Thanks Tom,

This may not last very long either but damn it sure is costing $$$ and lives that may have not become a pandemic had someone created a vaccine for “coronavirus” and only needed tweaking for each different protein spikes.

This isn’t rocket science, it’s medicine!

WarriorDiplomat

04-05-2020, 20:54

They didn't last long enough to be a pandemic threat; MERS 214 cases, SARS total 8,000 cases, so no vaccine was developed.

NO $$$ in it.

The bottom line

frostfire

04-06-2020, 03:36

Possibly a "social impact" question but I wonder how much their culture plays into their cooperation in that matter, and how much the ego-driven rugged individualized nature of ours hinders it.

NB: I do NOT have a 1st Aid Merit badge from the BSA so h/t JJ.
:)

IMHOO that is spot on.
The face-saving-collective-over-individual mindset heavily influences the mass wearing of masks. In those Eastern countries, you don’t want to inflict your sickness to others. Thus you wear a mask even if unsure/asymptomatic. In the West, we want the sick to wear mask so there’s a stigma associated with mask wearing. Instead of being seen as a thoughtful individual, you are a sick 🤒 person walking around. A solid example of cultural shift in mask wearing is in Czech Republic
https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-work-making-masks-after-government-decree-coronavirus

I guess not only they make solid pistols and Bren ....:D
Now their homemade masks are
Top tier in volume (n hopefully quality too)

Ret10Echo

04-06-2020, 13:23

Boris Johnson to ICU

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been taken into intensive care in hospital with coronavirus.

He has asked Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab to deputise for him, a No 10 spokesman said.

First world leader??

From BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604?at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=2444197A-783B-11EA-8FE0-C319FDA12A29&at_custom3=%40BBCBreaking&at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom2=twitter)

JJ_BPK

04-06-2020, 13:42

Boris Johnson to ICU
First world leader??

Boris is out-going, gregarious, and very social
and QE II is still pissed he won the election.
I wonder if she sent Charley to visit #10?

:munchin

Ret10Echo

04-06-2020, 13:51

Boris is out-going, gregarious, and very social
and QE II is still pissed he won the election.
I wonder if she sent Charley to visit #10?

:munchin

Sort of a biological Fire Ship

Flagg

04-06-2020, 16:54

Sort of a biological Fire Ship

Cheers for that.

Modern applications for recycling the fire ship concept are...considerable.

JJ_BPK

04-07-2020, 09:18

More news on possible medicines that show promise.

We used Ivermectin all the time on the kids.
Wondering if using it builds up immunities? :munchin

What Is Ivermectin? Head Lice Drug Appears to Stop Coronavirus—Here's What You Need to Know

Researchers testing the head lice drug Ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19 have seen promising results in lab studies.

But the research is in its early stages and the drug is yet to be tested on people with COVID-19.

There's so much we don't know, including the right dose and delivery method for people with coronavirus infection.

https://www.newsweek.com/ivermectin-head-lice-drug-coronavirus-1496496

Badger52

04-07-2020, 11:11

More news on possible medicines that show promise.
There are various anecdotal reports of that working as an anti-viral. One guy had it prescribed by his vet for his dog, with the off-the-record vet comment that it was technically "off label use" because normally used for livestock.

Another guy ("who has reported credibly in the past") had taken it before for an unrelated viral thing. Cured, no ill effects, other than being parked on the commode for awhile because, as he said, "it kills everything." So grab some good Wisconsin cheese curds and probiotics etc and replace the natural flora in your gut.

Recipients of the Big Pharma bak-sheesh will parrot the "not invented in my office with clinical trials" syndrome. I think of it as the Monty syndrome. First make a tidy battlefield and then we'll discuss when/where to move forward.

JJ_BPK

04-07-2020, 13:43

Bill Gates funding Vaccine for Corona-V
With the Chinese??

Invest in tin-foil.. :munchin

A potential coronavirus vaccine funded by Bill Gates is set to begin testing in people, with the first patient expected to get it today, Andrew Dunn, 1 day ago

A small Pennsylvania biotech company is planning to start injecting healthy volunteers with a potential coronavirus vaccine, after receiving regulatory clearance to start clinical testing.

Researchers plan to dose the first person Monday. The experimental vaccine was developed by Inovio Pharmaceuticals, with the effort receiving funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/a-potential-coronavirus-vaccine-funded-by-bill-gates-is-set-to-begin-testing-in-people-with-the-first-patient-expected-to-get-it-today/ar-BB12e01f

Inovio Collaborating With Beijing Advaccine To Advance INO-4800 Vaccine Against New Coronavirus In China
January 30, 2020

Agreement will facilitate clinical trial translations in China

PLYMOUTH MEETING, Pa., Jan. 30, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Inovio Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (NASDAQ: INO) today announced that it is collaborating with Beijing Advaccine Biotechnology Co. to advance the development in China of INO-4800,

Inovio's vaccine against the recently emerged strain of coronavirus (2019-nCoV) that has killed numerous people and infected thousands more in China to date. Inovio recently announced that it is developing INO-4800 through Phase 1 human testing in the U.S. to evaluate safety and immunogenicity with the support of an initial grant up to $9 million from the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI).

Inovio plans to rapidly develop INO-4800 against the new coronavirus and has already started preclinical testing and preparations for clinical product manufacturing. The goal of this collaboration is to leverage Advaccine's expertise to run a Phase 1 trial in China in parallel with Inovio's clinical development efforts in the U.S. Inovio and Advaccine will also work together to attract additional grant funding and further collaborations with larger vaccine companies in China to increase the speed of future testing of INO-4800.

Dr. J. Joseph Kim, Inovio's President & CEO, said, "Our collaboration with Beijing Advaccine and its Founder, Emeritus Professor Bin Wang from the prestigious Fudan University and China's premier DNA vaccine expert, will tremendously accelerate our coronavirus vaccine INO-4800 development in China because of its expertise and experience with regulatory authorities and clinical trial management. This collaboration allows us to enter China and deliver our vaccine into the areas where they need it most as soon as possible. Our shared goal is to utilize both company's expertise in developing vaccines for emerging infectious diseases and hopefully achieve an accelerated regulatory approval for INO-4800."

Inovio's participation in this developing effort is based on the ideal suitability of its DNA medicine platform to rapidly develop vaccines against emerging viruses with pandemic potential, proven vaccine development capabilities, and a strong track record of rapidly generating promising countermeasures against previous pandemic threats. Inovio was the first to advance its vaccine (INO-4700) against MERS-CoV, a related coronavirus, into evaluation in humans. Inovio is currently preparing to initiate a Phase 2 trial for INO-4700 in the Middle East where most MERS viral outbreaks have occurred. Those efforts are supported by CEPI funding and partnership.

http://ir.inovio.com/news-and-media/news/press-release-details/2020/Inovio-Collaborating-With-Beijing-Advaccine-To-Advance-INO-4800-Vaccine-Against-New-Coronavirus-In-China/default.aspx

mugwump

04-07-2020, 20:36

Immune enhancement / antibody-dependent enhancement: the vaccine nightmare that keeps researchers up at night. 75% of the steps to vaccine development can be shortcut but not this last piece. Somebody said, “If the Chinese want to risk it, more power to ‘em.”

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/03/27/2005456117

Gypsy

04-08-2020, 13:35

I'm just wondering how many old school drugs will be effective on this virus - and then find out they would have been effective against other SARS/MERS type stuff?

But they were never looked at because there is no money in old drugs.

Could be something...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/plasma-treatment-being-tested-york-213100838.html

As patients with COVID-19 continue pouring into emergency departments and intensive care units across the nation, an old treatment that has been adapted for a new disease is being tested in New York.

Pete

04-08-2020, 13:43

They first did this with the 1918 flu.

doctom54

04-09-2020, 08:55

They first did this with the 1918 flu.

Actually they were doing a variation for other diseases before the influenza hit.
"The Great Influenza" (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OCXFWE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) by John Barry is a wonderful book and the first 1/3 discusses the state of medicine in 1918 and how we got there.

tonyz

04-09-2020, 14:24

This will surely piss off some liberals.

Boris Johnson out of ICU amid coronavirus battle, in 'good spirits,' spokesman says

By Adam Shaw, Stephen Sorace | Fox News

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been moved out of the intensive care unit of a London hospital where he has battled coronavirus, a spokesman for the prime minister said Thursday.

“The Prime Minister has been moved this evening from intensive care back to the ward, where he will receive close monitoring during the early phase of his recovery,” the spokesman said. “He is in extremely good spirits.

<snip>

https://www.foxnews.com/world/boris-johnson-out-of-icu-amid-coronavirus-battle-in-good-spirits-spokesman-says

JJ_BPK

04-09-2020, 14:37

This will surely piss off some liberals.

Boris Johnson out of ICU amid coronavirus battle, in 'good spirits,' spokesman says

By Adam Shaw, Stephen Sorace | Fox News

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been moved out of the intensive care unit of a London hospital where he has battled coronavirus, a spokesman for the prime minister said Thursday.

More and more we are hearing of these "miraculous recoveries" by politicians and movie luminaries.

Makes me think the statisticians are working from a short deck.

Are there literally millions of people walking around in recovery mode and didn't even know they were sick?? and go completely under the radar because they just didn't get tested?? :munchin

tonyz

04-09-2020, 14:58

More and more we are hearing of these "miraculous recoveries" by politicians and movie luminaries.

Makes me think the statisticians are working from a short deck.

Are there literally millions of people walking around in recovery mode and didn't even know they were sick?? and go completely under the radar because they just didn't get tested?? :munchin

...I think you’re on to something...IMO, testing is critical for making (and supporting) the argument for safely opening up the country.

No doubt, celebrities and pols have access to the ‘quin and other off label treatments.

Badger52

04-09-2020, 15:20

Are there literally millions of people walking around in recovery mode and didn't even know they were sick?? and go completely under the radar because they just didn't get tested?? :munchinI just submitted a couple error reports to one of the stat keeping websites (https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en) and they were very grateful when I contacted them. Several contacts I've made reaching out - initially out of curiosity - reveals a likelihood that county health departments are tracking well, data goes to the state, and the state is neither reporting it on their site, nor sending it on further. The state of WI has been sitting at the first case recovery (down in the commie enclave of Madison) since it started. I just sent in data on two smaller counties I know of that have 19 documented recoveries (along with many hundreds of negative test results).

I will not speculate on motives of not publishing any of the good stuff that might keep from stampeding the herd; had a chance at Reynolds Aluminum stock while a pup and didn't bite so my hat right now is a baseball cap.

PSM

04-09-2020, 23:54

Are there literally millions of people walking around in recovery mode and didn't even know they were sick?? and go completely under the radar because they just didn't get tested?? :munchin

That's starting to be the thinking on the West Coast where Chinese citizens, visitors, and students routinely travel back and forth to China. It's possible that herd immunity has spread slowly over that last several months aided by the lack of mass-transit use, except in SF.

Pete

04-10-2020, 04:42

There's been the stories about the bodies stacking up so high in NYC they are putting them is mass graves.

Truth? Or is it a spin from the fake news?

"Coronavirus: New York using mass graves amid outbreak"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52241221

"....The drone footage comes from Hart Island, off the Bronx in Long Island Sound, which has been used for more than 150 years by city officials as a mass burial site for those with no next-of-kin, or families who cannot afford funerals.

It is probable that many of the coffins are for coronavirus victims, but it is not clear whether they fall into the above categories.

Burial operations at the site have ramped up amid the pandemic from one day a week to five days a week, according to the Department of Corrections. ...."

JJ_BPK

04-10-2020, 05:22

There's been the stories about the bodies stacking up so high in NYC they are putting them is mass graves.

Truth? Or is it a spin from the fake news?

If you reword this article from FOX...

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-new-york-city-shortens-deadline-to-claim-dead

Notes to self:

1)transients and the poor have been a problem for NYC mortuaries for a long time. The use of mass-trench graves is old news, as is the case in other large metropolitan areas.

2)A very large segment of the population demand burial based on religious tenents and are not allowed to complete preparations with the lock-down

3)Are Funeral Homes on the "essential services" list?

4)Manhatten does not have many graveyards so many are buried outside the city limits, which is probably controlled because of CORID-19

An aside: Europe has a history of re-using graves for lack of space. I can['t find the reference(it was 10yr ago) of one city that allows you to be plotted for only 5 yrs. then you're dug-up and replaced.

Cemetery Overcrowding is Leading Europe to Recycle Burial Plots

Guest writer, Rafaela Ferraz, explores the traditions and challenges around the common European practice of grave recycling and how eternity can still be bought, for the right price.

Rafaela Ferraz on July 18, 2018

When the city of Faro in the southern coast of Portugal ran out of burial space early this summer, officials were forced to reckon with the dreaded issue of cemetery overcrowding.

Recent decedents accumulated in the coolers of local funeral homes, lending a sense of urgency to the management of the city’s dead, and in the end, there was no choice but to make room where there was none. Existing burial plots were cleared of their long-term occupants and reused, in a strategy that raised fewer eyebrows than the problem of overcrowding itself.

The practice of exhuming old remains (“raising the bones”, as the act is colloquially known) may be unfamiliar to many, but not to the Portuguese whose friends and family rest in particularly sought after cemeteries.

The current form of the practice was introduced in 1962, to fight the growing lack of room in century-old municipal cemeteries, but the reuse of burial space far predates that time.

Before the widespread advent of cemeteries in the late 1800s, the Portuguese had buried most of their dead in churchyards, always with the implicit understanding that when the time came to bury the new, the old would be brought up and moved into a common ossuary.

It seems natural that such a practice would eventually arrive at the current form of grave recycling, where “perpetual” plots may still be purchased as any other form of real estate, but “temporary” plots may only be occupied for 3 to 5 years.

Once the lease is up, bone remains may be transferred to one of the niches that line the walls of the cemetery, or stored as ashes in a columbarium. Families are expected to make the decision and bear witness to the exhumation, but that’s about the only formality surrounding the pragmatic procedure, which isn’t accompanied by any further ritual or ceremony.

https://www.talkdeath.com/cemetery-overcrowding-leading-europe-recycle-burial-plots/

JJ_BPK

04-10-2020, 06:41

A new disturbing story..

How the hell did these people get infected?? :mad:

Could this be someone trying to get their personal cause linked to COVID-19 for the PR "exposure"?

Remote Yanomami Tribe Records First Case Of Coronavirus
Claire Reid in News

Last updated 11:17, Friday 10 April 2020 BST

A remote Amazon tribe has recorded its first case of coronavirus, Brazilian officials have said.

A 15-year-old boy from the Yanomami tribe was taken to hospital complaining of shortness of breath, a fever, sore throat and chest pain. He was admitted to the intensive care unit, where he remains.

An initial test for covid-19 came back negative, but a second test confirmed the virus, Globo reports.

https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-remote-yanomami-tribe-records-first-case-of-coronavirus-20200410

Box

04-10-2020, 06:41

It was good to wake up this morning and catch the Cuomo syndicate work racism into his COVID-19 update speech...
...mankind deserves this pandemic.

Folks have been praying for the giant meteor for I cant remember how long. Maybe instead of a meteor we're just getting something a little more personal. The worlds best and brightest are on display - some too stupid to pass up a chance to cause panic - some too stupid to see a doc when they are ill - some too stupid to just cover their mouth when they fucking cough.

Nothing going on anywhere in the world is any different than it was six months ago.
China treated their citizens the exact same way
Dead homeless folk in NYC did not get Kobe Bryant style send offs
Viral outbreaks kill ton of folks that dont take care of themselves
Viral outbreaks kill tons of folks that are ALREADY disease ridden
Viral outbreaks kill folks that are healthy wealthy and wise
...but modern man has decided to stock up on toilet paper and alcohol based hand sanitizer because CNN said this time was "different"

not stocking up on soap - hand sanitizer

I can still go to my local walmart and fill my cart with antibacterial dial soap. But hand sanitizer and shit tickets are quickly forming the foundation as the currency of our new economy.

Its become impossible to even keep track of how many folks are OPENLY lying about their data - ungodly amounts of hype and panic - some FOR NAUGHT... https://www.foxnews.com/us/washington-field-hospital-coronavirus-dismantle
...all the while, folks are glued to their TV listening to the Cuomo crime syndicate explain how racism and COVID-19 are hopelessly linked here in the USA

Stop the planet - I'm ready to get off...............................

PSM

04-10-2020, 16:29

I'm starting to smell a rat. A bunch of rats.

On the Chris Plante Show (WMAL in D.C.) he had several health care workers calling to say how the numbers are being artificially elevated. The first caller is at 27:00 in the 04.10.20 episode:

Chris Plante Show (https://omny.fm/shows/the-chris-plante-show/playlists/podcast/embed?style=cover)

One nurse mentions that they believe that the virus has already spread through the population at least a couple of times.

And here's a MN doctor who is also a MN State Representative:

Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/media/physician-blasts-cdc-coronavirus-death-count-guidelines)

Time to open most of America on Monday.

Badger52

04-10-2020, 16:38

I'm starting to smell a rat. A bunch of rats.

On the Chris Plante Show (WMAL in D.C.) he had several health care workers calling to say how the numbers are being artificially elevated.This wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. As mentioned a couple times I've seen too many discrepancies between what our counties are reporting "up the chain" to the state (and presumably should go further) and what isn't showing up. Negative tests given are a "rah-rah look how efficient we've been" metric. Total cases vs. positive test with subsequent recovery - crickets.

Cui bono?

JJ_BPK

04-10-2020, 16:38

I'm starting to smell a rat. A bunch of rats.
the numbers are being artificially elevated.

:munchin

sfshooter

04-10-2020, 18:53

It's not just us ordinary citizens that are seeing the hype even some with medical degrees:

https://newstalk955.com/kalispell-doc-covid-death-certificates-manipulated/

I haven't watched her video but listened to her on the talk show this morning. When you look at how the modeling figures have now been brought down to a bad flu season level that tells ya things were way hyped from the start.

Pete

04-10-2020, 18:58

This story is about the cruise ship, German and Shenzhen, China studies.

It brings them all together. Still, all three are small samples but....

"COVID antibody test in German town shows 15 percent infection rate"

https://spectator.us/covid-antibody-test-german-town-shows-15-percent-infection-rate/

"This morning we have some data giving a little more insight into the great unknown of the coronavirus pandemic: just how widely among the population has SARS-CoV-2 — the virus which causes COVID-19 — spread among the general population. ...."

Is there a magic % +/-?

PSM

04-10-2020, 19:34

In L.A., two bank robbers entered a bank and the security guard stopped them and said, "You can't come in here if you're not wearing a mask!"

Badger52

04-10-2020, 19:47

Is there a magic % +/-?That was pretty interesting, thanks. Particularly the findings about same-household cases.

At this stage I'm glad they're just studying that aspect (vs. trumpeting from the dais) because there are still segments of the population out there at real risk. Playing a 1:6 odds game initially, but where you put an extra bullet each in the cylinder for age, co-morbidities, availability of emergent care is not a tempting avenue. It's an intriguing thing, though, that magic number (if it exists), and why.

The first fatality in our county happened last night/today. Gent in his mid-70's became the 8th case, first hospitalization, and first fatality all in about 18 hours. I'd bet a biscuit there was sufficient other stuff present that a routine flu or mild pneumonia might've done it, although they have a history of crashing fast. Nonetheless it will be chalked up to the COVID-19 case fatality rate, which locally goes now from 0 to 12.5% by the way they currently seem to be calculating it. (I think it should actually be done using a mortality rate method which is different but I don't get billions of G's money, so...)

Flagg

04-10-2020, 21:47

That was pretty interesting, thanks. Particularly the findings about same-household cases.

At this stage I'm glad they're just studying that aspect (vs. trumpeting from the dais) because there are still segments of the population out there at real risk. Playing a 1:6 odds game initially, but where you put an extra bullet each in the cylinder for age, co-morbidities, availability of emergent care is not a tempting avenue. It's an intriguing thing, though, that magic number (if it exists), and why.

The first fatality in our county happened last night/today. Gent in his mid-70's became the 8th case, first hospitalization, and first fatality all in about 18 hours. I'd bet a biscuit there was sufficient other stuff present that a routine flu or mild pneumonia might've done it, although they have a history of crashing fast. Nonetheless it will be chalked up to the COVID-19 case fatality rate, which locally goes now from 0 to 12.5% by the way they currently seem to be calculating it. (I think it should actually be done using a mortality rate method which is different but I don't get billions of G's money, so...)

Here in NZ, we have only had 4 deaths.

All elderly, 2 in their 70’s, 1 in their 80’s, 1 in their 90’s.

I wouldn’t think of any of these as “excess deaths”, slightly accelerated, but certainly not excess.

JJ_BPK

04-11-2020, 05:48

Here in NZ, we have only had 4 deaths.

All elderly, 2 in their 70’s, 1 in their 80’s, 1 in their 90’s.

I wouldn’t think of any of these as “excess deaths”, slightly accelerated, but certainly not excess.

Prole,
You obviously have no idea how to properly create and maintain scientifically adjusted POSITIVE false-flag operations for the political opportunists, in this post-apoplectic world.

The Thinkpol will be notified of your callousness :o

Pete

04-12-2020, 03:24

10 days of fairly flat new cases.

5 days of fairly flat deaths.

The "recovered" now outnumber the deaths.

Social distancing? Everything shut down? Other than not being able to go out to eat 2 or 3 times a week and get my hair cut I'm still able to go shopping for food (lots of people work there), get gas, go to the bank, go to the Post Office. Pretty much my normal routine. Walk by plenty of people while doing that.

Time for the Feds and Governors to start loosing up their choke holds.

Flattening the curve was to not over load med services all at once. Overall the curve has been flattened and med services have had a month to get ready and prepare.

Is it over? No, but it isn't a Prairie Fire driven by high winds.

Trumps big fault is he hasn't fire Gate's weasel and put in somebody would would do large scale testing, antigen and virus, in a zip code near a hot spot.

We've been dicking around 6 weeks and the above basic info is still unknown.

Badger52

04-12-2020, 06:07

Milwaukee saw its first use this weekend of using plasma (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/11/milwaukee-man-stable-after-experimental-coronavirus-plasma-transfusion/2977352001/) from a recovered patient.

An elderly man critically ill from the coronavirus is among the first few patients in Milwaukee to receive a plasma transfusion in hopes that the antibodies from someone who has recovered from COVID-19 will help his body fight the virus.

“He tolerated it well and is in stable condition,” said Dr. Ajay Sahajpal, director of Advocate Aurora’s Health transplant program, and member of the team that administered the transfusion on Friday at Aurora St. Luke’s Medical Center. “We won’t know if he’s out of the woods for a week or so.”

Plasma transfusions are much like blood transfusions. They take a couple of hours and carry similar risks of fever, allergic reactions and the slight possibility for transmission of infectious disease. They’ve been used historically as last resorts to help squash rapidly spreading contagions.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration earlier this month approved clinical trials for the use of plasma transfusions in combating COVID-19 and has approved the treatment as an emergency investigational new drug.

“The biggest limitation to scaling this more broadly is that there are just not enough donors,” Sahajpal said.

Although more than 275,000 people across the U.S. have been infected with the virus, fewer than 10,000 are considered to have recovered.

This last statement is, in my view, a false figure. IMO that number is low because they are not tracking "recovered" at various levels the way they need to. "Oh, you went home for 2 weeks, still asymptomatic, here's another test, negative. Have a nice day." And that statistic drops off the radar because from states on up it's not being reported.

Pete

04-12-2020, 06:18

Worldometer shows 30,502 in the US as recovered this morning which is over 20,000 more than the number they use in the article..

JJ_BPK

04-12-2020, 06:29

Time for the Feds and Governors to start loosing up their chokeholds.

Is it over? No, but it isn't a Prairie Fire driven by high winds.

Trumps big fault is he hasn't fire Gate's weasel and put in somebody would do large scale testing, antigen, and virus, in a zip code near a hot spot.

We've been dicking around 6 weeks and the above basic info is still unknown.

Agreed, but the fifth wheel, along with help from the MSM, is still spinning everything to crash the economy and elections.

As soon as anyone releases the isolation chokehold and there is a documented COVID-19 death they will be eaten.

I could easily see de Bas-ho and Cuomo "adjusting" their recorded number up by 30%, because they found an "error" in the process. They are now confident the record system works and it shows how all of POTUS's efforts are complete failures.

A little side-bar, the isolation is proving to show the Left is very quick to adapt extreme tactics to advance their version of the 1984 Dystopia INTO A REALITY.

Personally I would not rush to un-isolate. :munchin

PS: I have been locked in my 55+ condo since March 3rd. My daughter and family have visited twice, and are coming over today.

PPS: The assisted facility(1.5 miles away) that many leave here for, has had at least one confirmed COVID-19 and is causing a bit of a panic. Many that leave here and go there, also caom back for visits.. :(

Badger52

04-12-2020, 11:13

A little side-bar, the isolation is proving to show the Left is very quick to adapt extreme tactics to advance their version of the 1984 Dystopia INTO A REALITY. Yup. Metro hive to middle Earth. One quick way to reveal the despot in waiting is to make the magic "Executive Order from the Governor" appear and watch what they do with it locally.

This is going to reinforce the adage that people get the government they deserve.

Pete

04-15-2020, 04:38

Found this interesting story

"Israeli Professor Shows Virus Follows Fixed Pattern"

https://townhall.com/columnists/marinamedvin/2020/04/15/israeli-professor-shows-virus-follows-fixed-pattern-n2566915

"Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel of Tel Aviv University, who also serves on the research and development advisory board for Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, plotted the rates of new coronavirus infections of the U.S., U.K., Sweden, Italy, Israel, Switzerland, France, Germany, and Spain. The numbers told a shocking story: irrespective of whether the country quarantined like Israel, or went about business as usual like Sweden, coronavirus peaked and subsided in the exact same way. In the exact, same, way. His graphs show that all countries experienced seemingly identical coronavirus infection patterns, with the number of infected peaking in the sixth week and rapidly subsiding by the eighth week..."

This is more on the story at the link. That story has a further link to more information.

The bottom of the second (original) story has the "He's a nut" push back.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.mako.co.il/health-illnesses-and-medicines/illnesses-the_novel_coronavirus/Article-8d515c179447171027.htm

They say he doesn't have enough data to make his claim - while they shut down the world with no data - just projections.

JJ_BPK

04-15-2020, 12:39

and the numbers are in... :mad: More FACTS about who counts who.. The numbers are skewed and may never normalize.

The UK is not counting confirmed deaths of people not in an HRS hospital as they do not need to allocate funding for them.

I suspect other nations are downplaying so as not to scare the population :[

Except for NY & NYC who inflate their numbers to cast dispersions of ineptitude on 45.. :mad:

Coronavirus: Older people being 'airbrushed' out of virus figures, 14 April 2020

The official death toll has been criticised for only covering people who die in hospital - but not those in care homes or in their own houses.

Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey told the BBC the daily figure was based on hospital deaths because "it's accurate and QUICK".

Meanwhile, scientists will begin a review of the UK lockdown later.

The evaluation will be passed to the government - but ministers have said it was unlikely restrictions would change.

The latest figures from the Office for National Statistics, which include every community death linked to Covid-19 in England and Wales, showed a total of 406 such deaths registered up to 3 April had occurred outside of hospitals.

That would have added an extra 11% to the official UK figures, based solely on deaths in hospitals, that were being reported at that time.

Of those extra deaths, 217 took place in care homes, 33 in hospices, 136 in private homes, three in other communal establishments and 17 elsewhere.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52275823

Pete

04-16-2020, 06:32

In trying to guesstimate just how many people have the virus 15% pops up a lot.

Here it is again.

"1-in-7 New Yorkers May Have Already Gotten Covid-19"

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-7-yorkers-may-already-191430969.html

"Bloomberg Opinion) -- Of the 215 women who delivered babies at New York-Presbyterian Allen Hospital and Columbia University Irving Medical Center in Upper Manhattan from March 22 through April 4, 214 were tested for the coronavirus that causes Covid-19. Thirty-three of them, or more than 15%, tested positive, even though only a few had symptoms. In Gangelt, a German town that makes a big deal out of Karneval (aka Mardi Gras) and had a major coronavirus outbreak after this February’s festivities, 500 residents were tested for evidence of either the virus or the antibodies that indicate one has recovered from it, and 15% of them tested positive as well....'

More at the link.

That large sampling in CA on the 5th still hasn't released their numbers yet. Wonder if it will come in around 15% also?

JJ_BPK

04-16-2020, 06:43

Penn

04-16-2020, 18:19

There is a sense/instinct beginning to circulate in MSM, that the virus has an origin, that is Chinese and from a lab in Wahun providence. Hard to believe that open source information readily available was ignored, denied, and discounted as racist rhetoric.
How will this impact the 2020 election. If MSM still pushes a proChina policy, how the voting public will respond?

Sohei

04-16-2020, 18:48

...How will this impact the 2020 election. If MSM still pushes a proChina policy, how the voting public will respond?

I think it depends on how much of the voting public has actually paid attention to any of the circumstances surrounding the origin of the virus. My biggest problem is with those that take the medicine fed to them by the MSM without doing any due diligence on their part and actually digging into it and forming an opinion of their own.

Badger52

04-16-2020, 19:50

My biggest problem is with those that take the medicine fed to them by the MSM without doing any due diligence on their part and actually digging into it and forming an opinion of their own.Sadly, that is a huge chunk of people. Actually one of the behavioral infections that caused that was the bazillions of Microsoft products in offices all over, and its default IE browser, which was often setup to open to MicroSoftNBC. That monstrosity became a default source for countless people, who also then turned it on at home.

Bill Gates has been at it for a long time.

Ret10Echo

04-17-2020, 06:04

This appears to be an attempt to relieve some of the "pressure" on the Chinese hiding the full impact of the virus in Wuhan.

WHOA! HEY!... Where did THOSE come from??

From Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-toll/china-says-nearly-1300-virus-deaths-not-counted-in-wuhan-cites-early-lapses-idUSKBN21Z052)

China says nearly 1,300 virus deaths uncounted in Wuhan

Nearly 1,300 people who died of the coronavirus in the Chinese city of Wuhan, or half the total, were not counted in death tolls because of lapses, state media said, but Beijing dismissed claims that there had been any kind of cover-up

I'm guessing that there are at least one or two zero's missing...

YOMV

albeham

04-17-2020, 06:27

Yep...more to follow. :munchin

Box

04-17-2020, 06:41

If MSM still pushes a proChina policy, how the voting public will respond?

Unassailable proof could surface that China deliberately launched a biological attack against planet earth in direct collusion with the DNC in an attempt to unseat President Trump...
...the Democratic party candidate still has 190 electoral votes in the bank just waiting to be cashed in on election day.

Discuss.........................

Airbornelawyer

04-17-2020, 12:00

Unassailable proof could surface that China deliberately launched a biological attack against planet earth in direct collusion with the DNC in an attempt to unseat President Trump...
...the Democratic party candidate still has 190 electoral votes in the bank just waiting to be cashed in on election day.

Discuss.........................
We have separate threads for the social/political and economic impact of the Wuhen coronavirus. Please reserve discussions in this thread for medical and related matters. Thanks.

Pete

04-17-2020, 13:09

Updates - Stanford study in CA is out.

"Antibody research indicates coronavirus may be far more widespread than known"

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121

"The first large-scale community test of 3,300 people in Santa Clara County found that 2.5 to 4.2% of those tested were positive for antibodies -- a number suggesting a far higher past infection rate than the official count.

Based on the initial data, researchers estimate that the range of people who may have had the virus to be between 48,000 and 81,000 in the county of 2 million -- as opposed to the approximately 1,000 in the county's official tally at the time the samples were taken. ...."

and

"CDC reviewing ‘stunning’ universal testing results from Boston homeless shelter"

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/trending/coronavirus-cdc-reviewing-stunning-universal-testing-results-boston-homeless-shelter/ZADQ45HCAZEVJAZA3OTCUR7M6M/?fbclid=IwAR2QDpkBFAcAr9It8sFHKLIrd7X_0-eRPG_LhD22OzjmBxMuHrLUg1x2_x0

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is now “actively looking into” results from universal COVID-19 testing at a Boston homeless shelter.

The broad-scale testing took place at the Pine Street Inn homeless shelter in Boston’s South End a week and a half ago because of a small cluster of cases there.

Of the 397 people tested, 146 people tested positive. Not a single one had any symptoms.

“It was like a double knockout punch. The number of positives was shocking, but the fact that 100 percent of the positives had no symptoms was equally shocking,” said Dr. Jim O’Connell, president of Boston Health Care for the Homeless Program, which provides medical care at the city’s shelters....."

Both these stories along with the NYC test on pregnant women show the virus is far more widespread than previously thought.

Some more large scale testing needs to be done NOW!

With the denominator base getting expanded the CFR is shrinking.

Penn

04-18-2020, 01:37

This bit of info was taken from a Brett Barr/Fox article.

"They believe that this Shi Zhengli, who was working in the Wuhan Virology Lab, was essentially working on antiviral and immunization efforts. That's what our sources are saying. That's what matches some of the reports that were out from the University of South China and others, that there were efforts to study these viruses in that very lab," Baier said. "And basically, [they believe] that the non-man-made part is pointing specifically to the genetic mapping of this virus right now and that it hopped from an animal to human. And it was not altered in its genetic sequence."

I read this as a settlement for China to accept/admit culpability, as long as the "work" on the virus excludes the genetic engineering part of the virus structure. It will be interesting to see, if there will be an effect that alters China reach. and impacts their ability to use MSM so deliberately.

Badger52

04-18-2020, 05:55

I read this as a settlement for China to accept/admit culpability, as long as the "work" on the virus excludes the genetic engineering part of the virus structure.They may be hoping it works out that way. Frankly, I believe they would say anything, even a partial mea culpa, to avoid the world calling for their head. There are still too many holes in the wet-market story (numbers of people & when). Also, from what I've read, the recombination (of 2 or more types) necessary to make this virus would've had to occur virtually simultaneously and accidental animal jump to human doesn't seem to fly. Also because... Communist China.

Pete

04-18-2020, 07:34

This article includes the Chelsea tests.

So we have the Stanford study in CA, pregnant women, homeless shelter and now Chelsea.

All point to a far wider spread of the virus but also means a much lower CFR.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/how-many-people-already-have-covid-19/

"...Nearly one third of 200 Chelsea residents who gave a drop of blood to researchers on the street this week tested positive for antibodies linked to COVID-19, a startling indication of how widespread infections have been in the densely populated city.

Sixty-four residents who had a finger pricked in Bellingham Square on Tuesday and Wednesday had antibodies that the immune system makes to fight off the coronavirus, according to Massachusetts General Hospital physicians who ran the pilot study.

The 200 participants generally appeared healthy, but about half told the doctors they had had at least one symptom of COVID-19 in the past four weeks....."

Airbornelawyer

04-19-2020, 16:40

In looking at the latest COVID-19 situation report as of 19 April, it seems that the anomalously high case fatality rates in certain Western European countries persists. They exceed 10% in France, Belgium, Great Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden, with Hungary at 9.9%. Meanwhile their neighbors are in the 1-5% range which we see in other countries and which we have seen in several previous virus epidemics.

Do you think the problem is the denominator, and there are far more cases in these countries than have been reported, for whatever reason? Or is the issue with the numerator, and these particular countries may be attributing to COVID-19 deaths which might not be directly due to the virus (like New York City and their recent adjustment)?

Or do you think that is this information basically accurate, and reflects something seriously wrong with the health care systems in these particular countries and how they reacted to the crisis? There has been a fair amount of anecdotal evidence, including reports of elderly patients and nursing home residents left to die in Italy, Spain, France and the UK, that might support that thesis.

Some of the differences might be demographic. Some news reports have noted Italy's aging population, The death rate is much higher among the elderly, so countries with more older people might expect a higher CFR. However, the country with the highest median age in Europe, outside of micro-state Monaco, is Germany. So that does not necessarily correlate.

Any thoughts?

Old Dog New Trick

04-19-2020, 17:46

Everyone who died today, died of coronavirus if the local government’s/administrator’s can get more money and free things from the federal governments.

Governments that don’t have any money or stockpiles of equipment don’t have high numbers of coronavirus deaths.

JMHO-YCFRMD

(Don’t mean to make light of the situation, it’s a serious problem and many good people will needlessly die because of lots of reasons...including incompetence and failure to prepare. That dagger has a very large target.)

Pete

04-19-2020, 17:54

I think the denominator - at least in the US - is way too low. Here in NC they are only testing the 65 or older crowd who come in, hospital and first responders and those who are really sick and got to the hospital.

Younger and with mild symptoms? No test, you're told to go home and shake it off.

That also doesn't count those who just shake it off and those who didn't even know they had it.

Only large scale antigen testing will tell how widespread it is. NY is fixing to launch a large scale antigen test, around 3,000 IIRC. The Gov was talking about it this afternoon.

PSM

04-19-2020, 20:54

After hearing one of the 'survivors' of the virus who met with the President last week, it's possible that I may have had it. I never get sick. Really. The last time I had the seasonal flu was 1971. I got mild colds when my wife was substitute teaching for a couple of years.

About the time this broke, and roughly the time I pooh-pooed mugwump's post about it, I woke up one morning feeling achy, chilled, and had a loss of apatite. I have no idea if I had a temperature because I never felt the need to check it. This lasted about 3 days. This is exactly what the guy with the President described. I rarely come into close contact with others but my wife does so, if I did get it, I got it from her. She had no symptoms at all. It would be nice if we could get tested just to find out since I'm almost 70 with slightly high blood pressure and, reportedly, in the target zone.

ETA: I left out the cough! I would cough so hard that I almost threw up twice and got light-headed once to the point of having to lie down. There was a slight tightness in my chest but I chalk that up to the coughing. I slept well but my wife asked me one night if I got any sleep at all do to my coughing all night. It didn't wake me at all.

Pete

04-20-2020, 05:05

As of yesterday NY's numbers have dropped to 627 deaths. NJ 132, Mass 146 and Penn 135.

Everybody else was single or double digits. Those states will see an increase but it's been 6 weeks since the alarm bell was rung.

New cases have been 30K +/-for the last 18 days. 25,040 yesterday.

Deaths have been 2K +/- for the last 13 days (discounting NY's dump of 3,700 in one day to pad their numbers). 1,561 yesterday.

We will never have "0" deaths.

Time to get back to work.

Badger52

04-20-2020, 05:55

Denominator wrong. This is either a problem with the reporting mechanism, or intentional manipulation of figures, and the problem is widespread. The use of a case fatality rate is of little value really except to briefers who want to get you to behave in a way they wish. Mortality rate (using potential affected population as the denominator) would be more accurate, because those asymptomatic people don't walk around with a sign over their head.

I see it all the way down to my county. The "important" number is total cases, even though that has no relevance to actual number of cases CURRENTLY or the number of people who tested positive but who have RECOVERED. And at many levels, the number of this last category isn't even published. Why is that?

1stindoor

04-20-2020, 05:59

We will never have "0" deaths.

Time to get back to work.

I was just having this same argument yesterday. We're not going to cure death. It happens to everyone.

Ret10Echo

04-20-2020, 06:17

I dropped this back in post #676....

You would think we would have a better sense of things in the information age but just as an example of "too early". The question is what exactly does that mean and whose opinion is the right one?

Philadelphia Threw a WWI Parade
(https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/philadelphia-threw-wwi-parade-gave-thousands-onlookers-flu-180970372/)

With summer, the Spanish flu seemed to subside. But the killer was merely laying in wait, set to return in the fall and winter—typical peak flu season—more lethal than before. As Philadelphia planned its parade, bound to be a large gathering, director of public health Krusen had ignored the growing concerns of other medical experts and allowed the parade to proceed, even as a deadly outbreak raged on nearby military bases.

Pete

04-20-2020, 07:45

The point of the lock down was not to stop the virus but to flatten the curve.

That was to keep the hospitals from becoming overrun with virus patients and give them a chance to bring in equipment.

Right now in NC we have 465 hospitalized for the virus. 3,223 ICU beds - 784 empty. 16,508 hospital beds - 6,304 empty. Ventilators in hospitals 2,906 - 684 in use.

It's been a number of weeks and I'd say we've flattened the curve.

Our new cases (covered our problems with testing many times) have been pretty much under 200 per day but did have a few in the 300's and a 500 + on Friday.

Time to get back to work - with maybe the "gatherings over 50" still in place.

Pete

04-20-2020, 16:27

What was that Scrooge said about "..decrease the surplus population.."?

"Cuomo didn’t know coronavirus patients are being sent back to nursing homes"

https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/cuomo-didnt-know-coronavirus-patients-are-being-sent-back-to-nursing-homes/

".....“That’s a good question, I don’t know,” the governor said.

Cuomo’s startling admission came days after the state revealed last week that at least 3,316 people in nursing homes and adult care facilities had died of coronavirus at their residences or in hospitals across the state...."

If it was Trump.....

Pete

04-20-2020, 19:11

Good set of tests just starting in CA

Two different communities not that far apart. One mostly rural and one mostly urban. Testing for both the virus and antigens.

"California researchers test everybody in one town for coronavirus"

https://news.trust.org/item/20200420214536-n2156

"BOLINAS, Calif., April 20 (Reuters) - Researchers began testing an entire town in northern California for the novel coronavirus and its antibodies on Monday, one of the first such efforts since the pandemic hit the United States.

Bolinas, a wealthy beach town in Marin County, near Silicon Valley, raised funds to test all 1,680 of its residents, in partnership with University of California-San Francisco (UCSF).

Dr. Aenor Sawyer, an assistant professor at UCSF and a Bovinas resident, said the town is uniquely situated to teach the medical community about how the disease spreads because it lies two miles (3 km) from a highway with no through road.

"So we're fairly isolated, rural, and (with) stable ecosystems right now for the last several weeks. So it will be very interesting to see the footprint of the virus in this arena," Sawyer said....."

and

"...Researchers have chosen the Mission District, a vibrant inner city neighborhood with Latino roots in San Francisco, for the second location. Testing will start there on Saturday.

"There are two paired sites that are going on right now: One here in Bolinas, which is very rural and people are quite separated and it's isolated. And another, less than an hour's drive away, in the Mission District of San Francisco, where it's very densely populated, people live very close to each other, and it's very connected," said Dr. Bryan Greenhouse, an assistant professor at UCSF and one of the study's researchers....."

About time

Pete

04-21-2020, 08:04

Badger52

04-21-2020, 10:46

An interesting piece on a worker forgotten in all this.

"...There are few high-traffic businesses more densely populated than grocery stores. In fact, within the U.S. economy retail supermarkets have the highest foot traffic of any business sector in the entire economy; that’s just an empirical fact…. and the coronavirus impact increased that foot traffic by an average of 40 percent. Now, stop and think about this logically & apply a large dose of common sense. Think about human-to-human interface...."

More at the link

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/04/20/common-sense-and-human-interface-georgia-governor-brian-kemp-announces-phased-reopening-of-business-starting-this-week/?fbclid=IwAR2w3PLAM6xFA1p3oGQS08WWlkLkD7z98R3ck5R7 zOaHd2OFPLTIbMAWxH0#more-189620Indeed. At either the grocery store on my end of town, or the Walmart out at the interchange it's not hard to avoid folks and keep the .Guv determined distance. Except for the 5 teen-age stockers in a single aisle gabbin' as they put in new shelves of Ramen. And ACTIVE case load declining, and new case rate declining. Tiny numbers relatively speaking in my AO but the math is what it is. Then again, we're not Madison, starved for our Starbucks. Cookie-cutter diagnosis = fail.

I wonder how much of the stay-hidden approach is from those that have the ear of the statehouse and would be jealous if some deplorable county was allowed to return to more of their productive life.

GratefulCitizen

04-21-2020, 11:58

Not only is the denominator wrong, the numerator is, too.

How many of those deaths would've happened anyway?
How many aren't directly related to the virus?

Need to keep track of total deaths from illness/disease (not to include injury deaths) and compare it to what is normal for the time of year.
The difference and rate of change of that difference would give an idea of total lethality and growth rate of the virus.

Pete

04-21-2020, 12:25

This is an old one from a while ago.

Fine print at the bottom has where the numbers came from.

JJ_BPK

04-21-2020, 15:13

This is an old one from a while ago.

Fine print at the bottom has where the numbers came from.

If that reduction in BLUE is real, 13k down to 5k??
NY should get the Nobel prize for medicine,, or MATH. :munchin

PRB

04-21-2020, 15:19

If that reduction in BLUE is real, 13k down to 5k??
NY should get the Nobel prize for medicine,, or MATH. :munchin

Or, even if they had the other issues...cancer/flu/whatever....if they also tested pos for CV they were probably reported as CV deaths...rightly or wrongly

Ret10Echo

04-21-2020, 16:07

Or, even if they had the other issues...cancer/flu/whatever....if they also tested pos for CV they were probably reported as CV deaths...rightly or wrongly

There was an article recently in the Baltimore Sun (https://www.baltimoresun.com/coronavirus/bs-md-maryland-cardiologists-see-drop-in-heart-patients-20200420-4ikfqg6dh5eqhmjes2oosrtpx4-story.html)

Maryland doctors sound the alarm after seeing drop in heart attacks and strokes amid coronavirus pandemic

The number of people suffering from such symptoms likely hasn’t gone down that much, health care providers fear. Instead, they believe patients have chosen to avoid emergency room visits to their own detriment

Providers in Maryland have reported seeing below-average caseloads since the beginning of March, which some attribute to patients looking to minimize their risk of catching COVID-19 in a hospital.

Because hospitals are where "sick" people go and the MSM has portrayed them as virus-laden war zones....

YOMV

Pete

04-22-2020, 09:27

For all you that thought you might have had it in January or February - you may just have.

"Timeline reset: CDC confirms weeks-earlier California deaths"

https://news4sanantonio.com/news/nation-world/timeline-reset-cdc-confirms-weeks-earlier-california-deaths

"...Santa Clara County officials said Tuesday the people died at home Feb. 6 and Feb. 17. Before this, the first U.S. death from the virus had been reported on Feb. 29 in Kirkland, Washington. The Medical Examiner-Coroner received confirmation Tuesday that tissue samples sent to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tested positive for the virus, officials said...."

Way past time for large scale antigen testing.

JJ_BPK

04-22-2020, 09:35

Maryland doctors sound the alarm after seeing drop in heart attacks and strokes amid coronavirus pandemic

The number of people suffering from such symptoms likely hasn’t gone down that much, health care providers fear.

Instead, they believe patients have chosen to avoid emergency room visits to their own detriment

Providers in Maryland have reported seeing below-average caseloads since the beginning of March, which some attribute to patients looking to minimize their risk of catching COVID-19 in a hospital

Or is there a good probability that the powers to be have re-classed deaths to make their COVID-19 numbers look good for the gloom-n-doom scare tactics??

AND the GOV Handouts?? :munchin

Sohei

04-22-2020, 09:46

...AND the GOV Handouts?? :munchin

Good opportunity to buy some votes.

Box

04-22-2020, 09:50

The fun fact is - if we find out that COVID-19 was "worse" it just means that its actually less-worse - more infections that were so minor that it was never even noticed only means that the zombie virus is an even smaller percentage-threat than our elected hype-resentatives have told us it was !!!

Stay Woke people - don't be oppressed by the governing class because you refuse knowledge - the oppressors are all out getting a bag while the rest of us are watching the value of our retirement accounts dwindle away.
These fools are out of pocket and i am hip to the drama!

...the disease goal posts move around like roaches at Beck's Romance Motel

First we were told flattening the curve was to stop the spread...
...but it didnt really stop the spread. If you want to stop the spread, put away the Nutella.

Then it was to stop the disease...
...which it didnt - theres even articles on the web selling doomsday info that COVVID might be spread VIA fart clouds

North Korea has no cases - China is cured - Germany is fixin' to send the Chinese an invoice and somehow, here in the USA the cure (or lack thereof) seems to be a partisan matter as opposed to a medical matter.

Medicine - its a thing.
Really - its been a thing for generations and suddenly we have all willingly emptied our piggy banks into the parking meter of Pandemia. (its a new word - I just made it up)
Pandemia is NOT a disease problem - Pandemia is a place.
Pandemia is a place halfway between the flu, not the flu, and medical politics.

I KNOW that adds up to three halfs - but Pandemia is a really big place.

If a gazllion people find out they had the zombie disease that means the morbidity is a gazillion times less than advertised.
Unless of course you live in Pandemia.
In Pandemia we wear masks under the verified medical opinions that the masks we are wearing will not stop or prevent the virus - but at Ft Pandemia you cant even go in the Commissary to buy your two-pack of shit tickets unless you are wearing a mask.

Now - we are suggesting that not only is it possible that the virus was much more widespread and much LESS fatal than we thought - we are simultaneously expected to believe that phase-2 of the zombie apocalypse will be even more worser than phase one of the zombie apocalypse.

Welcome to Pandemia - please make sure you mask is secure before signing for your TP ration.
...and for fuck sake - wash your hands - its the best method known for preventing the spread of disease.

Old Dog New Trick

04-22-2020, 10:11

Box

04-22-2020, 10:30

ODNT - those statistics are flawed.

We all know that the red states enjoy white priveledge while it has become common knowledge that the virus is racist.

OF COURSE the stats in blue states are going to be worse - it is because Trump hates blue states and has colluded with the virus in an obvious attempt to tilt the election.

My wokeness is on duty 24 and 7 - including religious and federal holidays - not only am I always on the clock, I live in downtown Wokeville - the capital city of Pandemia.

JJ_BPK

04-22-2020, 10:46

Stealing, Thanks :D

Found on twitter. I have no idea if valid and can’t find the information elsewhere.

Wuhan virus statistical comparison of Dem versus Rep controlled states, as of 4/20/20

Dem: NY, NJ, MA, PA, CA, MI, IL LA, CT, MD
Pop: 104.8 million
Cases: 571,161
Deaths: 34,626

Rep: TX, FL, OH, AZ, TN, IN, MO, SC, AL, OK
Pop: 103.1 million
Cases: 97,150
Deaths: 2,626

There are thirty states and about 115 million people missing.

tom kelly

04-22-2020, 11:08

Is that near 47xx Ashton Drive, and a stones throw from The Cape Fear Valley Hospital? A former Det. A-333 Commo friend lived there...

Ret10Echo

04-22-2020, 11:16

Found on twitter. I have no idea if valid and can’t find the information elsewhere.

Wuhan virus statistical comparison of Dem versus Rep controlled states, as of 4/20/20

Dem: NY, NJ, MA, PA, CA, MI, IL LA, CT, MD
Pop: 104.8 million
Cases: 571,161
Deaths: 34,626

Rep: TX, FL, OH, AZ, TN, IN, MO, SC, AL, OK
Pop: 103.1 million
Cases: 97,150
Deaths: 2,626

There are thirty states and about 115 million people missing.

NY City alone accounts for over 14k deaths... The 95 corridor from NYC to DC is a huge chunk of that but also represents a population density not seen in other regions regardless.

Old Dog New Trick

04-22-2020, 11:53

NY City alone accounts for over 14k deaths... The 95 corridor from NYC to DC is a huge chunk of that but also represents a population density not seen in other regions regardless.

I hear ya’! Mayor de Blasio and his appointed health minister did a bang up job promoting Chinese New Year celebrations. All that aside New York is the most visited international city in America.

As for more accurate reporting in information on COVID-19 data I believe Houston metro news sources to be the best.

https://fox26houston.com/news/the-latest-coronavirus-covid-19-cases-deaths-recoveries-in-greater-houston-area

https://abc13.com/health/covid-19-cases-deaths-and-recoveries-county-by-county/6111292/

We’re doing quite well 7,782 confirmed cases out a 7-million population and only 155 deaths and 2,071 documented recoveries from hospitals in the greater Houston area.

In my county (Montgomery) five of the seven deaths have all come from one senior living apartment.

Testing has been pretty widespread since the beginning and now it’s open to the public as a drive up...no doctors orders needed.

Badger52

04-22-2020, 12:09

We’re doing quite well 7,782 confirmed cases out a 7-million population and only 155 deaths and 2,071 documented recoveries from hospitals in the greater Houston area. The states continue to seem (to me) to be running at the back of the pack in terms of reporting an important metric.
Postive test results, sent home to self-isolate, subsequently deemed clear & recovered. I'm pretty certain that individual county health folks are doing tracking & follow-up; state & higher seems to be where the data either falls into a black hole or File-13. Given the ratios I've seen thus far of those needing hospitalization to contacts that were traced, tested positive & sent home for the magic 14 days, it's often something like 4:1 or 6:1 for the ambulatory "go home" category. That's a pretty significant delta unless what you want to trumpet is Total Cases and Death.

I asked my state rep about that & to inquire why our DHS wasn't publishing the "recovered" numbers (they had not responded to my queries). Her staffette simply replied that "DHS is responsible for those reports." I replied to staffette that I knew that, but that their notion of what "representation" is supposed to look like and mine are apparently 180° from each other. She is locally based (family owns a former Chev/GMC dealer 2 miles away. She is going to get an earful.

Gypsy

04-22-2020, 17:09

We all know that the red states enjoy white priveledge while it has become common knowledge that the virus is racist.

Oh yes, just ask the mayor of Chicago :rolleyes:

Surf n Turf

04-24-2020, 17:13

Have we been lied to, and hustled in throwing out the best economy the world has ever experienced, because someone either panicked or set us up like pigeons.

If there is any truth in this article, ropes and lamp posts should be in great demand down in DC (and in Beijing)..

SnT

Antibody Testing: Proves We've Been Had!
There is simply no other way to state this.

Nearly everything we’ve been told about models, rates of infection, deaths, and recoveries was inaccurate.
I’m not here to argue that it was malfeasance or ignorance — both are unacceptable. But the one thing that Governor Andrew Cuomo’s stunning announcement made clear on Thursday is that there are some pretty shocking — and what should be — reassuring truths.

Cuomo announced that antibody testing in New York state, which only began four days previous, was already demonstrating that at minimum 13.9% of New Yorkers, had COVID-19 late stage antibodies.

The implication of this is a shockwave to the system.

With a population of 19,540,500 the findings point out that over 2,500,000 New Yorkers had the virus and have recovered. Keep in mind that as of this writing that only 263,000 New Yorkers have currently confirmed cases. Also as of this writing New York has reported 19,543 fatalities.

We’ve been told that the true death rate is 7.4% in New York. We were told there would be hundreds of thousands dead. We were told that this was worse than the flu, which has still recorded more deaths to date in this past flu season—even though the CDC instructed medical personnel to start counting influenza, heart disease, pulmonary, respiratory, drug overdose, and possibly even car crash deaths as COVID-19 deaths.

We were told that we had to upend an economy, go into solitary confinement, and divorce ourselves from normal life because this would rage beyond any previous pandemic. We were told that this virus with 846,000 current confirmed cases was worse than the H1N1 that broke out on Obama’s watch that infected 60,000,000 people. (We were conveniently not told that Obama had authorized $3.7 million U.S. tax dollars to be used at the Wuhan Institute of Virology to utilize corona viruses in bats in 2015 — but that’s yet another deception of omission.)

But none of these “truths” turned out to be so.

The death rate in New York State isn’t 7.4%, it is actually .75%. The recently ended influenza season numbers from the CDC indicate possibly 56,000,000 cases of flu, 740,000 hospitalizations, and 62,000 deaths. Under the current count from the Johns Hopkins Dashboard in this five month stretch CoVid19 has racked up 845,959 confirmed cases, 122,000 hospitalizations and 46,972 deaths.
https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2020/04/23/antibody-testing-proves-weve-been-had-n2567516

Paslode

04-24-2020, 18:38

PSM

04-24-2020, 22:03

If there is any truth in this article, ropes and lamp posts should be in great demand down in DC (and in Beijing)..

SnT

https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2020/04/23/antibody-testing-proves-weve-been-had-n2567516

I honestly believe that we need to go back to public executions. Especially in political crimes! And let the bodies rot in the sun outside of the buildings that the perpetrators worked in until the bodies are picked clean. This will never end until drastic action happens.

Badger52

04-25-2020, 06:21

I honestly believe that we need to go back to public executions. Especially in political crimes! And let the bodies rot in the sun outside of the buildings that the perpetrators worked in until the bodies are picked clean. This will never end until drastic action happens.Pour encourager les Autres!

I'm not into wholesale "find any scapegoat", ala post-Battle of Minorca, but the hemp industry is robust & growing, and there are sufficient lamp posts along Constitution Ave. After that, a Morbark 50/48x can take care of things. Bio-fuel is what's happening.

Pete

04-25-2020, 06:27

And the grocery stores remain open with the usual cashiers working the registers and usual workers in the isles stocking selves.

As noted earlier - with little mitigation they are exposed to how many walk through folks a day while working.

cbtengr

04-25-2020, 06:49

We have been had, but why?

Pete

04-25-2020, 07:05

We have been had, but why?

Once panic starts the stampede soon follows. Hard to turn the herd with few cowboys.

Now add in the political and MSM angle and there's no stopping it until the herd is exhausted.

Box

04-25-2020, 11:03

Once panic starts the stampede soon follows. Hard to turn the herd with few cowboys.

Based on the broad range of reporting I have suffered through, it would seem to me that the "cowboys" you speak of are the ones that started the stampede...

Pete

04-25-2020, 11:07

Based on the broad range of reporting I have suffered through, it would seem to me that the "cowboys" you speak of are the ones that started the stampede...

It was the cook banging his pots trying to fix the trail boss a midnight snack.

PSM

04-25-2020, 19:26

Two CA doctors explain the data:

Pt 1: https://www.******.com/watch?v=xfLVxx_lBLU (51:55)

Pt 2: https://www.******.com/watch?v=zb6j7o1pLBw&t=618s (12:27)

BLUF: Stay at home orders and business closures are causing depressed immunity in the healthy and there will be a drastic increase in sicknesses overwhelming, now, understaffed hospitals.

It's docs like these who should now be at DJT's side from now on.

Badger52

04-26-2020, 05:56

It's docs like these who should now be at DJT's side from now on.They're pretty effective; that something, thanks.

Trapper John

04-26-2020, 11:26

Earlier this week Cuomo announced that antibody testing in New York state, was demonstrating that ~ 14% of New Yorkers, had COVID-19 late stage antibodies. If correct this would mean that approximately 2.8 million New Yorker's had COVID-19 as early as late December or early January. To my way of thinking this is a very significant percentage of the New York population and there were no associated deaths or challenges to the healthcare system capacity like a rush on ventilators or any other notable consequence.

So while we’re on the subject, 263,000 New Yorkers is the current number of confirmed COVID-19 cases with ~ 20,000 deaths (7.6%).

Either the current reporting of cases is grossly under-reported by a factor of 10, or the antibody test is wrong. Both things cannot be correct.

Frankly, my instinct is telling me that cases are being grossly under reported.

If I am correct, and the antibody testing is a much more accurate indicator of disease prevalence. Then we have shut down our economy for nothing.

If all the hysteria over COVID is justified, then NY should have realized ~ 218,000 deaths and the healthcare system should have been overwhelmed.

Nothing remotely like this happened! And don't tell me that social distancing and staying home mitigated this to that degree!

Who was it that advised POTUS to shut down the economy?

I would really appreciate the opinions of yous guys on this! This just is not adding up in my feeble little brain.:confused:

Pete

04-26-2020, 12:11

Badger52

04-26-2020, 13:28

Earlier this week Cuomo announced that antibody testing in New York state, was demonstrating that ~ 14% of New Yorkers, had COVID-19 late stage antibodies. If correct this would mean that approximately 2.8 million New Yorker's had COVID-19 as early as late December or early January. To my way of thinking this is a very significant percentage of the New York population and there were no associated deaths or challenges to the healthcare system capacity like a rush on ventilators or any other notable consequence.

So while we’re on the subject, 263,000 New Yorkers is the current number of confirmed COVID-19 cases with ~ 20,000 deaths (7.6%).
My understanding, corrections welcome, is that the latter number represents what they like to call case fatality rate. I would submit that the more representative number is mortality rate, deaths against the potential affected population. One is approx 7.6%; the other is less than 1%.

I'm with Pete. The moment the coast is clear, a very long list of people needs to have files secured, computers locked, and be escorted from the building so they can go find "essential" employment. Like driving a trash truck if they can pass the CDL physical...
:munchin

Trapper John

04-26-2020, 13:32

I blame everybody high up in the CDC structure and all the highly paid Dr.'s that were and still are advising the President.

I understand that he can't fire them right now but they are the equivalent of snake oil salesmen.

These antigen tests should not have to be done by states and local governments for us to get a look at the numbers.

As soon as a reliable antigen test was available the CDC, et al should have done a large scale test of the zip code surrounding the rest home outbreak in WA.

Since they have not pushed for that only tells me they are trying to cover their ass.

Pete, I know Fauci and have worked with "his type" for most of my career. They are very bright and very honest. But they also have silo thinking and myopic vision. They are easily distracted and are highly susceptible to misdirection. What you get in response to a question depends entirely on the question and the way it is asked. A skilled interrogator can get exactly the desired answer with a high degree of sincerity. They are actually not covering their collective asses at all. They have been expertly misdirected and they will never ask the right questions simply because the answer would be controversial and they do not want controversy because they could lose control of the narrative and we can't have that!

Also note the group dynamic of the task force. It is designed to achieve consensus.

I really wonder who is advising POTUS? This task force really seems out of character for him? He thrives in apparent conflict and chaos. This task force composition is all wrong IMO. Something is not right here!

Trapper John

04-26-2020, 13:47

My understanding, corrections welcome, is that the latter number represents what they like to call case fatality rate. I would submit that the more representative number is mortality rate, deaths against the potential affected population. One is approx 7.6%; the other is less than 1%.

I'm with Pete. The moment the coast is clear, a very long list of people needs to have files secured, computers locked, and be escorted from the building so they can go find "essential" employment. Like driving a trash truck if they can pass the CDL physical...
:munchin

You are correct, 7.6% is the fatality rate and I agree with you that the mortality rate is more meaningful. I wonder why we never hear that, it's always the fatality rate. :eek: It wouldn't be because that's more alarming now could it? :eek:

Paslode

04-26-2020, 13:51

The Curve and Social Distancing sure were catchy slogans...

In my area hospitals are cutting staff hours and/or laying off staff. Children's Mercy laid off close to 600 last week. Three-four weeks ago a Doctor chuckled when I asked about their hospital and active corona cases. They said something to the effect of 'We have maybe 4 cases and are preparing for a spike that is supposed to come in the next two weeks'.

And so a state with a population of 3m has been shutdown, and tens of thousands have applied for unemployment for 3174 confirmed cases and around 120 deaths.

It doesn't add up.

Badger52

04-26-2020, 15:27

It wouldn't be because that's more alarming now could it? :eek:I literally had a related conversation with someone who lives in an adjacent county yesterday. They were in the mode of :eek: because of "OMG 27 cases now!" Had to lead them to their local county's public health website that actually has stats that show total 27, recovered 26. It was a 1000 lumen moment for them because, as I previously mentioned, higher level authoritative sources drop that second number. Makes me want to grab someone by the stacking swivel.

Trapper John

04-27-2020, 05:23

Makes me want to grab someone by the stacking swivel.

Hmmmm... Now there's a solution that needs further serious consideration. :lifter

PedOncoDoc

04-27-2020, 07:12

You are correct, 7.6% is the fatality rate and I agree with you that the mortality rate is more meaningful. I wonder why we never hear that, it's always the fatality rate. :eek: It wouldn't be because that's more alarming now could it? :eek:

The fatality rate is likely heavily inflated given the limited number of people tested. If only those who are extremely sick are getting tested, the number will obviously be higher.

A lot of studies are coming out showing high levels of infection with little or no symptoms in different populations (I recall seeing prison and homeless population studies) where the infection rate was quite high, level of symptoms was low to non-existent, and deaths were presumably also negligible.

It'll be interesting to see how these numbers change over time as more widespread testing is performed and the data is expanded and matured.

Razor

04-27-2020, 10:21

I've gone to explaining to some of my 'slower' friends and relatives that testing for COVID-19 is similar to getting tested for strep throat. Left untreated, strep can lead to some serious and chronic health issues (e.g., rheumatic fever). However, how many people ask to get tested for strep unless they are suffering the typical strep symptoms? Probably very few outside the percentage of hypochondriacs in the population.

A question to the medical professionals here--besides identifying people who are positive and need to be quarantined to prevent further spread (and to alert those treating them to enact proper isolation protocols), what good does testing do beyond providing numbers for later analysis/better understanding of the nature of SARS-CoV-2 such as CFR?

Box

04-27-2020, 11:34

Pete

04-27-2020, 11:45

Pete

04-27-2020, 11:52

The question now is "Would a Governor of a state try and hide antigen test results if it didn't support his agenda?"

Just might be the case in IL.

"Just as highly important information on antibody testing has started to come in, Governor JB Pritzker announced Friday that he will de-prioritize that testing. He is withholding results collected so far in Illinois. His full comments are reproduced below...."

https://wirepoints.org/pritzker-now-stonewalling-critical-antibody-testing-wirepoints/?fbclid=IwAR3E9CcsEh4GlQY5Vsb4pgxyuKS15n3OWoEt2AsL hOyyVEycx2hrPytwhE0

Wonder if it's true?

Pete

04-27-2020, 12:18

An NPR station - not exactly a right wing source.

"Nursing Home Residents: 50% Of COVID-19 Deaths In Connecticut"

https://www.wshu.org/post/nursing-home-residents-50-covid-19-deaths-connecticut#stream/0

"Deaths at nursing homes now account for nearly half of all COVID-19-related fatalities in Connecticut.

Newly released statewide numbers show a dire increase in cases and deaths.

At least one resident has died in the majority of the state’s nursing homes. And death rates at some facilities are approaching one in four residents....."

Since the first outbreak at the WA Nursing Home everybody has known nursing homes were a hotbed of activity for the virus. NY was sending infected patients back to their nursing homes.

Badger52

04-27-2020, 13:32

NC publishes the stats so you can keep a count. One of the fields is the % of hospitals reporting and the numbers wiggle per day. We are nowhere near capacity. You can plug in the latest number (451 as of now) of folks hospitalized for the virus and see they are having little impact on capacity.WI keeps some of that as well here (https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/hosp-data.htm) as to bed & ventilator availability against in-use numbers. Beds are at about 66% use, ventilators at about 26%. Drive-thru testing is continuing to be pushed out further to the hinterlands by the main clinic systems operating hereabouts (mostly Mayo or Gundersen-Lutheran). If I called my Doc or the triage line & they said get tested it's a drive of about 12 miles.

I note in this morning's route recon that several more small-biz have re-opened almost in reflex to the Gov's extension of the order to the contrary. Where the rubber meets the road there is something in the air (besides fresh sticky buns) that says his cookie-cutter got kicked into the landfil. And that's being really polite.

Pete

04-27-2020, 13:53

More on the testing front

"Cuomo Says Two Million New York City Residents May Have Had Coronavirus"

https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/27/cuomo-says-two-million-new-york-city-residents-may-have-had-coronavirus/

"As New York state continues its aggressive antibody testing, the latest results released by Gov. Andrew Cuomo show that 24.7 percent of people tested in New York City tested positive for having had the virus, with 14.9 percent testing positive across the state. A quarter of New York City’s 8.6 million residents translates to about 2.1 million people, a staggering number considering the city has thus far confirmed only 158,000 cases...."

I'll bet you'll find far higher antigen tests everywhere than people thought.

Trapper John

04-27-2020, 15:27

I've asked this in other places - how about some of the health care professionals following this thread give us your story about how the health care system at the hospital you work for has been overwhelmed.

I keep hearing talking heads on TV describing the failed US health care system; now I'm looking for some input from those of you working "inside" the health care system.

Let us all know how bad things are and how we can help "fix" the failed health care system in the USA.

Or have "we the people" collectively given our bank account numbers to the Nigerian Prince so he can share his wealth with us.........

My daughter works the cardiac unit here. Six months ago they were experiencing shortages in her unit and hospital wide. Since the COVID-19 "outbreak" the situation has actually reversed and there is a nursing staff surplus. I think this is generally true throughout PA. Nothing close to what was predicted.

I am wondering how we have been so completely conned? Or am I completely off-base? I really want to believe that I am completely off and someone here can put me back on track and show me error of my ways. Please? If not then I fear that this COVID fiasco makes the Russia collusion theory pale in significance.

So now we see calls to investigate the Trump response! Anyone else smell a strawman here? Damn, now I sound like tin-foil hat wearin' conspiracy theorist :eek:

Gypsy

04-27-2020, 16:31

The question now is "Would a Governor of a state try and hide antigen test results if it didn't support his agenda?"

I wouldn't doubt it, after all you can only maintain control by instilling fear in the unwashed masses. His extension of another month is ridiculous.

pyreaux

04-27-2020, 18:30

Someone asked about hospitals being overwhelmed, local to me I think the capacity has been fine, but they are running out of consumables like the filters for the ventilators. They have turned to homemade using pvc fittings and basically any available filter media.

Pete

05-02-2020, 03:47

This Doctor should be taken out and shot.

He used the Orange Man Bad drug and it killed a patient in his rest home.

80 Patients and Staff Members Come Down with Coronavirus at Texas Nursing Home – Hydroxychloroquine Treatment Saves All But 1 Patient

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/80-patients-staff-members-come-coronavirus-texas-nursing-home-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-saves-1-patient/

"A nursing home in Texas has a hopeful story for those suffering with coronavirus.
The Resort at Texas nursing home had an outbreak of coronavirus that infected 56 residents and 33 staff members.

Dr. Robin Armstrong immediately administered hydroxychloroquine to the residents and staff members along with Zpac and Zinc.

Only one nursing home patient died since the doctor prescribed the hydroxychloroquine.
55 made it......"

Badger52

05-02-2020, 18:05

This Doctor should be taken out and shot.

He used the Orange Man Bad drug and it killed a patient in his rest home.
For the crime of conducting another clinical trial that isn't a clinical trial. And Big Pharma cries Sad Panda tears. No bak$hee$h, Sahib.

Gypsy

05-05-2020, 17:42

I was trying to decide on the best thread to post this, figured this might be best.

Has anyone watched the video interview with Dr. Judy Mikovits on *******.com? Plandemic. It's about 25 minutes long, so many virologists and doctors are making IMO valid points. She makes some heavy accusations, some of which I've had running through my head for weeks now.

I just keep thinking that if you are basically a healthy individual sheltering in place = eventual lowering of immunity and resistance to germs due to lack of exposure = more susceptible to illnesses. Hell a common cold could kill you at some point if you don't have a strong immune system.

The financial information on reimbursements, statistic reporting etc are interesting.

Follow the money...

Badger52

05-05-2020, 18:36

Follow the money...Indeed.

Here's the sanitized full link to the one you mentioned:
https://www.xxxxxxx.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y
Her intro to that one:
Dear gatekeepers of truth and free speech, before removing this video, please read these words:

The world is watching you. We understand the pressure you’re under to censor any information that contradicts the popular narrative. We know the risk that comes with defying the orders of those who pull the strings. We realize even the biggest of tech giants are under the command of powerful forces that wield the ability to destroy your empire with the click of a key. But due to the critical condition of our world, “I was just doing my job” is no longer an acceptable excuse.

Also, she apparently had a falling out with Fauci years back which she goes into at length on this one:
https://www.xxxxxxx.com/watch?v=kgnBldI7KPY

From the header:
Dr Judy A Mikovits PHD has a virtual sit-down with Patrick Bet-David and opens up about her fallout with Anthony Fauci that led to her 5 year gag order and whistleblower status. Order her book: Plague of Corruption

:munchin

Gypsy

05-05-2020, 19:02

Indeed.

Here's the sanitized full link to the one you mentioned:
https://www.xxxxxxx.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y

:munchin

Thanks, wasn't sure how to share that link! The statement under the posted video is so powerful.

I wish more people would pay attention and question the rhetoric spouted by the supposed experts.

Wiseman

05-05-2020, 21:14

https://www.*******.com/watch?v=Aj2vB_VITXQ

This doctor talks about how this virus targets the endothelial cells in the blood vessels because they have ACE2

Penn

05-06-2020, 05:30

Wiseman, with regard to targeting, is that a natural road map of this virus, or was it designed to attack that specific vulnerability?

1stindoor

05-06-2020, 05:55

Pete

05-06-2020, 14:04

Looks like Womack AMC is starting to open up some.

Eye clinic called to reschedule my appointment that was cancelled the end of March.

They set it up for Friday - said to wear a mask if I had one. If not they would give me one at the front door.

Badger52

05-06-2020, 14:16

Thanks Gypsy. I hadn't seen that one yet. Something to follow up on when I get back home. (that site's blocked at work).Mother Gulag that runs that video service has already taken it down. This should tell you something. Some folks have backed it up at various places, a couple of which are (for the moment):

Here (https://www.captainsjournal.com/2020/05/05/coronavirus-how-we-got-here/) at The Captain's Journal
and
NC Renegade has it here (https://ncrenegade.com/editorial/plandemic-a-film-about-the-global-plan-to-take-control-of-our-lives-liberty-health-freedom/).

The 25 minute one that Gypsy mentioned above should illuminate (starkly, imo) why the white-coated Ivory Tower emphasis on Remdesivir (sp?) vs. Hydroxychloroquine regimens shown to work. Patent$, ca$h, and all that $tuff.

Gypsy

05-06-2020, 17:12

Thanks Gypsy. I hadn't seen that one yet. Something to follow up on when I get back home. (that site's blocked at work).

You're welcome, as Badger52 said it was removed. Too much truth no doubt. The two other links he provided still have it available.

PSM

05-06-2020, 22:11

Probably not my place to mention this, but it hasn't stopped me before: mugwump has been MIA for a month. He kicks off these, uh, usually irrational responses. But, he has neither an introduction nor profile. Is he known to someone here who vouched for him?

Pete

05-07-2020, 05:26

Well, DUH.

We called that when NY first started getting hit and those that could took a powder for greener pastures.

"Travel From New York City Seeded Wave of U.S. Outbreaks"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/travel-from-new-york-city-seeded-wave-of-us-outbreaks/ar-BB13J7Yx?ocid=spartanntp

"New York City’s coronavirus outbreak grew so large by early March that the city became the primary source of new infections in the United States, new research reveals, as thousands of infected people traveled from the city and seeded outbreaks around the country....."

mugwump

05-09-2020, 04:47

I'm a Chinese troll, PSM.

Sorry I ghosted, I don’t do 16 hour days very well anymore. We got dragged into data interchange efforts between ad hoc testing labs and the CDC, first with a Pharma, then a state govt, then two more state health services. Not our forte but we were asked if we could help. It’s been enlightening.

I’m just as baffled as everyone else with the lockdown strategy. When I was involved with these things long ago there was enormous time and effort put into strategizing how to keep everyone working. Sporting events, movie theaters, other large groups were always planned to be closed. All businesses and manufacturing, never. Madness.

The two extremes the nation has polarized into are both wrong IMO. This isn’t a disease catastrophe (although it’s turning into a medical system catastrophe) and it’s not a nothingburger. If I had to guess at this stage I’d say the CFR will shake out to be 0.4%-0.6% over 12-28 months. Not insignificant but not the body blow I feared from what we were seeing in Wuhan.

The HCS has been overwhelmed in very few places, unfortunately in media hubs. The HCS collapse we're facing now is due to underuse, not overuse. My daughter spent 12 days in the hospital with COVID...clots and disseminated coagulopathy (ironic because she was managing coagulopathy patients before being retasked into covid efforts) and then was furloughed from her job on the day of her release because her clinic is shut down. She’s 31 years old, a runner in outstanding shape, and has no comorbidities. It was terrifying. She's out of the woods for now and hopefully for good.

That’s why I think it’s middle ground. None of her friends or acquaintances who know her story are anxious to go out for a movie and a meal. Behavior would have changed without a lockdown and it will be slow coming back.

Current studies indicate brief casual contact with an infected person isn’t a serious contagion risk. Sustained exposure is needed. Think of having a convo over several minutes or public transport exposure as needed. The biggest transmission risk is within the household.

Regarding hydroxychloroquine...using the drug when the patient is seriously ill tells you nothing. Existing antivirals have to be administered when symptoms are mild or they don’t work at all. Studies are starting now to see if it works if administered early but they’ll take a long time.

That “Plandemic” video is total drek. I’m all for 1A but “the virus is ‘activated’ by wearing a mask”? There’s never been an effective vaccine against an RNA virus? The SARS2 virus has been in the influenza vaccine sine 2015? It’s ridiculous.

I’m thrilled we're not seeing a 1-2% CFR and everyone is now talking about how this is nothing, but remember where we were a month ago watching NYC. It’s significantly worse than seasonal flu but significantly less dangerous than the Spanish flu. Right on the cusp where everyone can apply their personal Rorschach test and be at least partially right.

Pete

05-09-2020, 06:30

Mugwump - I'll give your post a thumbs up.

Was just at Food Lion this morning.

Light foot traffic but the paper products and hand sanitizer are still missing. The rice section was still pretty much cleaned out. Spotty sections missing items. Meat was not loaded but still a pretty good selection.

As was noted a long time ago the regular workers/cashiers are still present.

Cashiers see the heaviest face to face volume of folks in unknown condition.

Rest homes continue to lead the numbers in death.

Badger52

05-09-2020, 06:39

I'm a Chinese troll, PSM.
....
Regarding hydroxychloroquine...using the drug when the patient is seriously ill tells you nothing. Existing antivirals have to be administered when symptoms are mild or they don’t work at all. Studies are starting now to see if it works if administered early but they’ll take a long time.Indulge please, if you can, but I'm not fully grasping your use of the terms "mild" vs. "early" as used above. It would seem there has been evidence of at least positive results with moderate symptoms using the hydroxychloroquine regime, but you're saying only with "mild" symptoms. How do we know that if "studies" are only starting to see if administered early? It seems to be that "tests" have been conducted in the field but no one wants to collate them to use that information to make a determination.

So I'd appreciate you clarifying the terms as well as some info as to your background in this subject.

That “Plandemic” video is total drek. I’m all for 1A but “the virus is ‘activated’ by wearing a mask”? There’s never been an effective vaccine against an RNA virus? The SARS2 virus has been in the influenza vaccine sine 2015? It’s ridiculous.There is admittedly a lot to digest in that video. Do a couple things completely negate the entire interview? Do you have knowledge of the accusations made against Dr. Fauci & the pharmaceutical establishment? I'm genuinely curious because "trust" in the government is at an all-time high in a variety of things, and the censorship being directed at that particular item is pretty noticeable.

Pete

05-09-2020, 09:23

This has been hinted at here and there during the past number of weeks.

The people who did this mention it with strong cautions but there does seem to be a correlation between Covid symptoms and Vit D.

"Vitamin D levels may impact COVID-19 mortality rates, study claims"

https://www.foxnews.com/science/vitamin-d-levels-covid-19-mortality-rates

"A research team led by Northwestern University analyzed data from hospitals and clinics across China, France, Germany, Italy, Iran, South Korea, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

Patients from countries with high COVID-19 mortality rates, such as Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom, had lower levels of vitamin D compared to patients in countries that were not as severely affected, according to the study......."

and

"..."While I think it is important for people to know that vitamin D deficiency might play a role in mortality, we don't need to push vitamin D on everybody," said Northwestern's Vadim Backman, who led the research, in a statement. "This needs further study, and I hope our work will stimulate interest in this area. The data also may illuminate the mechanism of mortality, which, if proven, could lead to new therapeutic targets.".."

PSM

05-09-2020, 10:42

I'm a Chinese troll, PSM.

Then please put that in your profile. :D

It's helpful, especially when someone professes expertise in a field, to be able to look at their profile to see if their background underscores that expertise. I'm not sure how you've managed to skate so long without filling it out given the seriousness of the subjects that you bring to light.

The Reaper

05-09-2020, 11:44

I am satisfied with mugwump's contributions to this forum.

If he wishes to provide more personal info to the public board, he is welcome to.

He can send his CV to me or any of the staff if he wants admin vetting.

If there are PERSEC reasons he cannot, his unique viewpoints and links appear to me to be of sufficient value to waive the publicizing of his personal details.

Feel free to point out your concerns to the staff here. Once you have done that, your job is complete.

TR

tom kelly

05-09-2020, 17:33

I agree with TR re. Mugwump's postings. All information/intelligence needs to be evaluated, sourced and cross checked before verification. Another Admin. once posted that "Everything and Anything posted the on PS web site is read and scrutinized by anyone with access to the web. That being said, I can understand why someone would be vague and cautious about their security. I have thoughts and suspicions about Virus Research in various sectors of Government, Academe and Business. I worked for years in a chemical research lab and as a Sales Engineer for a number of Biotechnology Firms that put me in a position to visit with researchers, and managers that were involved and invested in the virus business. Their goal IMO was Profit and knowledge and the power that comes with it.

mugwump

05-11-2020, 06:53

Indulge please, if you can, but I'm not fully grasping your use of the terms "mild" vs. "early" as used above. It would seem there has been evidence of at least positive results with moderate symptoms using the hydroxychloroquine regime, but you're saying only with "mild" symptoms. How do we know that if "studies" are only starting to see if administered early? It seems to be that "tests" have been conducted in the field but no one wants to collate them to use that information to make a determination.

Early, as in "early in the course of the infection." Mild, as in "mild symptoms vs moderate or severe symptoms." Of the antivirals approved for use in infectious disease (peramivir, zanamivir, oseltamivir phosphate, baloxavir marboxil) all have to be administered early in the course of the infection when symptoms are mild or they just don't work.

If you're still confused over "mild" and "early" there are many rating scales in use by the FDA that big pharma is required to use. You can Google them, try 'CDISC rating scales'.

So I'd appreciate...some info as to your background in this subject.

Ha. Fair enough. I was on a phone when I wrote that 'drek' post and I was remiss in posting no support. But funny how a conspiracy theory is accepted here without pause but a counter-opinion requires vetting of me and not a 5-min Google search of the 'Plandemic' assertions.

My credentials, because I have deep respect for COL Reaper: I dont have a CV, I've never bothered with web sites for my businesses, and I have so many interlocking NDAs I can only talk in general. I have a biology degree (BS) and a K-12 teaching ticket from a third-rate state University. I worked my way through college digging holes for light poles along the Edens Expressway in Chicago. When I was a teen, as I've told several people here privately--COL Moroney and Bill Hersey are the only names I remember--I was an IV methamphetamine addict. A friend of my grandfather--Uncle Ray, no relation and a Guadalcanal Marine--took me in and at times literally beat sense into me. I've been paying that blessing forward ever since.

Relevant experience: 4.5 years as a high school biology teacher in an inner city school. Loved the kids, loved the job, got a tenure exception after 6 months, hated my (mostly) lazy co-workers, and couldn't support my family. After that, forty years in clinical research, including 5.5 years as a money-grubbing employee of a horrible Fortune 100 Big Pharma where my primary focus was antibiotics: third generation cephalosporins, macrolides, and quinolones. I started at the bottom as a CRA (clinical research associate--I was told I'd never be promotable), poring over medical records of cases contributing to New Drug Applications for accuracy and completeness) and left as Director of Development, Antibiotics. Through blind luck, the company's CEO had a 2-year associate degree in textile science from an Iowa community college and couldn't give a toss about degrees. I told him in an open meeting his pet drug was a dog (it was) and should be killed. He looked into it for 3 months, killed the drug had me promoted. During my remaining tenure, I devised two complete Drug Development Plans (preclinical animal testing, Phase I, II, and III protocols with accompanying schedules and budgets) and both programs led to drug approvals after I left the company (couldn't go farther in R&D without an MD and I refused to work in Marketing where they wanted to shift me).

After I left pharma I started a Phase I Clinical Pharmacology Research Unit in London with four physicians associated with Guy's, St Thomas, and Barts hospitals (public/private partnership). I was a Guest Lecturer of pharmacology at Guy's Medical School (mostly in the use of computer technology for Phase I trials but also for coagulopathies caused by 3G cephalosporins, i.e moxalactam) and their sister CPRU at Johns Hopkins (entirely ceremonial, I did bugger all there except visit and eat soup). I sold out of that business and developed a software system that manages recruitment, protocol design and scheduling, automated data collection and analysis from non-invasive blood pressure devices, EEGs, ambulatory 12-lead ECGs, etc. at Phase I research centers. When you hear that Phase I studies for COVID vaccines and therapies are being completed and analyzed at warp speed, our software is a major contributor. Most of big pharma uses our package and it's what got me to the table during the H5N1 years.

I've also built and sold businesses that developed software control systems for gene sequencing systems, chain of custody sample management, real time QTc analysis of ambulatory ECG data streams, and step-forward randomization assignment in multi-center emergency treatment clinical trials. Right now I'm on a team with Big Pharma money grubbers--employees, furloughed with pay from their jobs who volunteered to get trained in handling inherently dangerous viral samples and accession/testing procedures--who are setting up a COVID testing lab to increase local test capacity for county/township nursing homes. The company bought the testing devices and supplies out of their own pocket, is receiving no compensation, and isn't advertising it, but feel free to insert your conspiracy theory here.__________________________________ I'm working pro bono to get the results into the state public health and CDC data systems.

In forty years I've written more clinical research protocols than I can count, I've testified to Congress twice (bleeds associated with moxalactam; ethical considerations of Phase I subject recruitment), FDA advisory panels numerous times, and the UK's MHRA once (the role of Phase I contract research). I've discovered and reported clinical research fraud, been solicited for bribes (Southern Europe) and seen just about every statistical game in the book used to manipulate clinical data and put lipstick on a pig. My bullshit spidey sense is strong.

I came here because my step-son's career goal was Special Forces and his CSM, who loved the kid and is my friend to this day, said it was a good place to glean info. I left here in 2015 (and I remember now that I deleted my profile, sorry but I was effing livid) after a the final camel/straw comment about junkies not deserving rescue. My son had died of an overdose earlier that year, medically discharged with an AKA, TBI, and 90% hearing loss. He became addicted to prescription opiates and had just failed his third rehab stint.

As a side note--and I do know that many/most of you know the score--try to be a bit more kind with your judgement of drug abusers. You don't know their stories and there are a lot of young men struggling--now more than ever as they're isolated and they've lost their support groups.

Well that's an hour I won't get back. And sorry Badger, I think you're a good guy but I have to fight to not be a pr*ck and I have really thin skin even after 40 years of being the only "Mr." in rooms full of MD/PhDs. It's not a very attractive trait but it is what it is.

mugwump

05-11-2020, 07:07

There is admittedly a lot to digest in that video. Do a couple things completely negate the entire interview? Do you have knowledge of the accusations made against Dr. Fauci & the pharmaceutical establishment? I'm genuinely curious because "trust" in the government is at an all-time high in a variety of things, and the censorship being directed at that particular item is pretty noticeable.

Are you aware of the accusations against Trump regarding collusion with Putin, financial ties to China, and the fact he's a Lizard Person?

The woman is embittered and has an axe to grind. Her one claim to fame was a Science paper that showed a mouse virus caused chronic fatigue syndrome (myalgic encephalomyelitis) and prostate cancer. She warned of nationwide contamination of the US blood supply and a wave of CFS and prostate cancer. She was forced to remove one figure and two tables from the paper and then the whole thing was retracted without consent after the results couldn't be replicated in a controlled trial. Her technique was shown to be incorrect and sloppy and that her findings were due to contaminated cell lines. She was initially lauded for participating in the follow-up study that disproved her theory but then was pretty much ostracized when she first agreed that the study disproved her case and then moved the goalposts and said the disproving study had an incorrect design, even though she participated in the design and approved it.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/333/6050/1694.full.pdf

As far as the Fauci "accusations" go, he's been an internal critic of the patent process since its inception and he's given his proceeds to charity (he received $45,000 total over 1997-2005, donated before this erupted, not after). The $8.9M figure the interview throws around was royalty payment to 916 researchers over ten years. The whole program stinks IMO but Fauci isn't at fault.

"Dr Anthony Fauci told the BMJ that as a government employee he was required by law to put his name on the patent for the development of interleukin 2 and was also required by law to receive part of the payment the government received for use of the patent. He said that he felt it was inappropiate to receive payment and donated the entire amount to charity."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC545012/

Her claim that she was pivotal in HIV research and the CDC was sitting on her research and big pharma colluded with the CDC is just BS. The Pateur Institute published the first HIV paper in May 1983, Gallo et al in May 1984, and her PhD dissertation dribbled along in May 1986. There's no evidence anyone sat on her work for even a couple months and even if they had there's no way Fauci was responsible for "millions of deaths" (that was Ronald Reagan's legacy--look up Everett Bork's comments on this, the best Surgeon General we've had in 100 years). I was working with the leading HIV centers at the time--my rifle 3G parenteral cepahlosporin was in multicenter clinical trials for Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in AIDS patients--and I was pretty up on this stuff at the time. Her dissertation in 1986 contributed to nothing that I'm aware of.

It's not a "couple things" that negate the interview. It's virtually every point.

Old Dog New Trick

05-11-2020, 07:27

Thanks mugwump (thumbs up) only twenty minutes to read but not wasted.

Keep up the good work.

And sorry for your loss, we have all lost more than we found.

mugwump

05-11-2020, 07:38

Regarding hydroxychloroquine (HCQ): I think it helps and I'm not aware of a single ICU doc who can't prescribe it. It's the top drug being used in COVID patients (~30% of polled docs use it).

It's untrue that there have been no retrospective analyses of HCQ administation. The problem is that pooling "observational" studies (i.e. anecdotal accounts) from docs in the trenches produces little useful data. Some studies claiming benefit excluded patient deaths (WTF? why?) and many studies changed the goalposts mid-study.

The problem is with assumptions. Docs and politicians were screaming for ventilators ("I need 30,000 ventialtors and I need them now!") and it now looks like vents were execution machines. Over 99% of patients over the age of 60 who were vented in NYC died. You literally had a better chance of of surviving a GSW to the head than getting placed on a vent if you were over 60.

Proning and O2 support are now the gold standard most places with non-invasive high pressure O2 support the preferred device when proning/O2 isn't enough (think CPAP with integrated O2). Vents, when used, are set for low pressure and low inspiration 'pause' rates.

Look back at questions in this thread. I can't remember if I chipped in on the "CPAP is not indicated" bandwagon (it's still not BTW unless you have O2 to go along with it) because someone got in ahead of me, but that was the conventional wisdom because NI ventilators spew aerosols around the whole room and it's an infection risk.

Hosp administrators in NYC were urging *early* invasive vent use "to get a head of the infection curve" even when the patient didn't really need it at that time because they often crashed and the admins were trying to protect the *staff* (invasive vents don't spew virus) over treating the patient. A lot of people died IMO for that reason.

People now think the disease causes micro-clots in the lungs and it's that causing hypoxia, and not pneumonia, causing the damage. My daughter had clots in her legs from this disease and nearly lost a leg.

So it infects the lungs but kills by destroying the heart and circulatory system. Even the first deaths in WA state in Jan were all attributed to heart/circ system effects and not pulmonary effects.

mugwump

05-11-2020, 07:52

So what's the point?

HCQ causes QTc prolongation, a heart arrhythmia that can lead to death. It's a known side effect and in healthy peeps isn't often a problem. But when the virus is attacking the heart/circ system endothelium? What about then? No one knows.

Folks were *sure* that invasive vents were the bee's knees just 3 weeks ago and not the guillotines they turned out to be.

You're replacing the service weapon for the Army: is "I used it a few times and it seems to work" good enough?

The left is desperately hoping it doesn't work, the right that it does. Both want "neener neener" rights. The PETAL network will answer the question.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine-potential-therapy-covid-19-begins

Until then, no one is going to stick their neck out.

Costa Rica is teaming with the Chinese to admin HCQ early in the disease state and as prophylaxis in HCworkers it looks like it may be working. Per usual with the Chinese, the study is crap and will only produce anecdotal results but they appear to have low disease incidence when it's used prophylactically. But who knows, they have low background rates anyway.

Badger52

05-11-2020, 08:49

Well that's an hour I won't get back. And sorry Badger, I think you're a good guy but I have to fight to not be a pr*ck and I have really thin skin even after 40 years of being the only "Mr." in rooms full of MD/PhDs. It's not a very attractive trait but it is what it is.Fine bidness. I very much appreciate the indulgence and thanks for taking the time with your views on several questions, e.g. the video, stages of the disease, etc. Was not aware of the personal aspects and you'll not get trivializing of substance abuse issues out of me - I know & deal with too many of the cast-offs from a local VAMC.
Drive on sir.

Pete

05-11-2020, 09:06

... The PETAL network will answer the question....

I would think it's a rigged study with an outcome fixed before it's finished.

As far as I read it's only HCQ.

Everything I've read said it works best along with Zinc and Zpacs.

Any reason why the study dropped the other two?

A lot of time tin foil hat stuff is based on good reasons.

Badger52

05-11-2020, 09:58

mugwump

05-11-2020, 10:20

I would think it's a rigged study with an outcome fixed before it's finished.

As far as I read it's only HCQ.

Everything I've read said it works best along with Zinc and Zpacs.

Any reason why the study dropped the other two?

A lot of time tin foil hat stuff is based on good reasons.

Don't know, I'm not involved. HCQ is also used alone clinically but I agree that small open label studies have shown greater decreases in viral load in nasal swabs when HCQ and azithromycin are used together. Haven't searched lately for the effect of HCQ/Zpac/zinc on treatment outcome hint hint.

But nasal swabs are notoriously inaccurate. I hate to keep bringing up anecdotal stuff but my daughter tested neg twice, once with a falling O2 saturation, before her supervising doc ordered her into the hospital where she finally tested + on PCR.

"Confounding variables" are the bane of clinical research and if adverse events are noted, sorting it out with multiple agents is a nightmare.

I held my nose and voted Trump and I'll hold my nose and vote for him again. That said I'll now criticize his approach to all of this stuff.

Fauci is doing his job and giving his opinion but Trump doesn't have to obey him. Trump has the CDC, NIH, USAMRIID, Lawrence Livermore, a slew of lawyers, a vengeful spirit, and the Defense Production Act in his pocket. There's nothing holding him back from commandeering these research operations and directing them to perform studies in the national interest. Add about 10 Big Pharma operations to that mix who have clinical teams, biostatisticians, databases, experience, and infrastructure already in place.

Use them--It's not all about masks and gloves. It's a bit risky, because one of our cultural strengths is the person staring off into the distance and wondering "what if?" but when we're flying blind sometimes we need answers.

This is an informed guess but I think HCQ's role is in prophylaxis and not treatment, i.e. preventing the disease and not treating it. That would be a game-changer.

Treatment emphasis is moving to inhaled nitric oxide and immune enhancement. NO worked better than HCQ during the SARS epidemic.

See this:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86410

Pete

05-11-2020, 10:30

...Fauci is doing his job and giving his opinion but Trump doesn't have to obey him. ..

Trump listened to him at the start and still listens to him some even today.

Fauci has shown himself to be a believer in failed models and in the pocket of big pharma.

Just my opinion of course.

mugwump

05-11-2020, 10:32

mugwump

05-11-2020, 10:41

mugwump

05-11-2020, 10:55

Trump listened to him at the start and still listens to him some even today.

Fauci has shown himself to be a believer in failed models and in the pocket of big pharma.

Just my opinion of course.

Well the failed model part is indisputable for this first wave, at least. I still worry about the path of the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic and the fall (mild first wave, hellacious second wave, moderate third wave).

If we extend the Bronx/Queens serology study to the whole nation (and given the lesser density outside NY I think that's a bit of a stretch) that still leaves 80% of the nation susceptible in the fall.

That's an argument for opening the economy and stacking cheese while we can IMO, not for staying home and continuing isolation.

Old Dog New Trick

05-11-2020, 11:28

The President (any President) has a contractual as well as moral and fiscal obligation to serve over 330,000,000 people in America and those around the world. It’s his (any President) responsibility to keep the engine lubed and turning over again and again.

Sometimes something breaks and has to be fixed. Good “Presidents” surround themselves with good and likeminded folks that actually know how to fix the problems. I think he’s done that or tried to do that even when some of those folks have had an ulterior motive to undermine him (this President more so than any President before him.)

It’s his number one job to help Americans be fully productive and employed to the fullest extent possible. Sometimes that leaves some others with less than a satisfactory experience.

JMO-YMMV

I too held my nose but this time around I am happy to be a Trump supporter and vote for him again.

ETA: it doesn’t help to have nearly 98% of the media openly destroying and making up shit to hurt him at the expense of the country!

Badger52

05-11-2020, 14:46

That's an argument for opening the economy and stacking cheese while we can IMO, not for staying home and continuing isolation.Funny you should mention that. Cheese is, and will continue to be available, as will butter, ice cream and (almost) all other dairy. But things need to be running again for awhile to allow the fluid milk to be utilized (schools, restaurants) rather than tossed because milk plants don't flip on a dime to start producing some other form of dairy. But them cows gon' produce, and get milked, regardless - what's able to be done with the output is important. And that's only one very tiny piece of the engine.

Pete

05-17-2020, 15:06

It would appear that "Follow the Money" still applies.

Full Measure with Sharyl Attkisson - Hydroxychloroquine and Remdesivir

"Sharyl Attkisson's latest Full Measure episode reports on politics, money, and medicine colliding with the COVID-19 crisis.

Attkisson interviews three accomplished medical experts who are calling for the politicization of COVID-19 to come to a screeching halt because it is dangerous, scaring patients, and costing lives and the financial conflicts of interests must be further examined.

They also note that the media is not helping the situation......"

Gypsy

05-17-2020, 15:56

They also note that the media is not helping the situation......"

More like exacerbating it. Yet the sheeple still follow.

Pete

05-21-2020, 14:17

Well, this is interesting.

So just what are the real numbers?

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/05/cdc-and-states-are-misreporting-covid-19-test-data-pennsylvania-georgia-texas/611935/

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is conflating the results of two different types of coronavirus tests, distorting several important metrics and providing the country with an inaccurate picture of the state of the pandemic. We’ve learned that the CDC is making, at best, a debilitating mistake: combining test results that diagnose current coronavirus infections with test results that measure whether someone has ever had the virus. ........"

"Have" and "Had" total might be nice to know when this is over - but I'm pretty sure all the lock down panic is over who has it "Now".

Box

05-21-2020, 14:29

I've said it elsewhere... this will all go away as soon as President Trump leaves office.

JJ_BPK

05-21-2020, 15:16

Well, this is interesting.

So just what are the real numbers?

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "

Georgia is combining results

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-19-testing-in-georgia-now-includes-antigen-antibody-totals/85-7cf9fe50-36e8-4293-a13f-c22a1ca65ab2

Unless there is a magic USA Master database with separate & unique elements for recording each different test results and space for future tests that aren't invented yet..

:D:D:D

Have you seen the latest test??

Badger52

05-21-2020, 18:53

"‘How Could the CDC Make That Mistake?’ "
I regard that question in the article from the Professor at "Hah-verd" as rhetorical.
I mean, damn, it's the CDC; that's how.
Next thing you know they'll say that the virus isn't as viable on surfaces as they originally told everyone.
Oh, wait...
:rolleyes:

I'm beginning to think that all the media, right down to the 5:00 and 10:00 pm local news broadcasts in Smalltown, USA, are common-core kiddies. They can't seem to do the math to arrive at the actual Current Number of Active Cases in their area. The sure do like that Total Cases Ever number, though. I know that my county health services director as well as the adjacent one have been told to make their numbers comply in formatting with what the state wants to see; and clarity is lost from there on up. Freakin' HHQ are the same everywhere it seems. Now that V Corps is standing up again they could qualify.

This stuff is bad for the digestion; better to contemplate the heirlooms growin' like weeds out on the front deck. Some toast, some bacon... :D

Trapper John

05-22-2020, 06:42

Regarding the response to the corona virus pandemic, I contend that we have been profoundly misled by the “Experts”! Yep, that’s right I said it…The “Experts” have been wrong!

SARSCoV-2 is a highly transmissible virus that can lead to a fatal disease - COVID-19. We have no vaccine nor do we have an effective treatment.

The models told us that We were facing collapse of our healthcare infrastructure and nearly 1.2 million fatalities if we don’t do something and do it quickly!

Yikes!!! :eek: What do we do? What DO we do?

We turn to the public health experts of course. The “Experts” delved into their experiential “bag of tricks” to tell us to stay away from one another, and don’t congregate because this virus needs to be transmitted person-to person in order to survive. And of course we need to test, test, test, and test again so we can see if cases are increasing, staying, the same or declining. In short the “expert” advice is to interrupt human to human transmission and let COVID-19 run it’s course. To the public health “Experts” credit, the disease has been mitigated and our healthcare system has not been overwhelmed as predicted.

Frankly, I don't believe that the predicted dire consequences would have happened regardless. But then I am no "Expert" :D

But did these “experts” miss anything?

Well, yes they did! See: “Effects of chloroquine on viral infections: an old drug against today’s diseases”. Lancet 3(11) 722-727 1 Nov. 2013. As an entrepreneur and a medical research scientist, I read this and saw a mechanism of action for an old drug that would justify its widespread use as a possible (likely) prophylactic agent in this COVID-19 pandemic. This illustrates why, when faced with a new and novel problem the best advice does not necessarily come from the “Experts”. I am no public health expert, but had I been asked, I would have recommended using the public in a large scale blinded and randomized prospective clinical trial to compare infection rates in (i) a placebo group vs (ii) a chloroquine treated group. I think this would have established prophylactic efficacy for chloroquine very early on and we could have avoided the economic shut-down all together.

In about six-weeks we should have results from a prospective study that is being conducted at the University of Wisconsin so we’ll see.

The problem with reliance upon "expert" opinions in novel and unique problems is that “experts” will by definition first apply historical analogies to the problem. For truly novel or unique problems those analogies will not fit and the “Expert” mindset does not seek out novel or apparently un-related observations to apply to the problem. Unfortunately, that is Exactly what is required in the current pandemic problem!

Now we are the unwitting subjects of a different experiment. But that's a subject for a different discussion. ;)

Old Dog New Trick

05-22-2020, 10:08

JJ_BPK

05-22-2020, 10:42

Regarding the response to the corona virus pandemic, I contend that we have been profoundly misled by the “Experts”! Yep, that’s right I said it…The “Experts” have been wrong!
;)

Agreed, Expert and Science are not always the same paradigm.

It is not fair to compare today to yesterday, bUT it is fair to point out the similarities to individuals that espouse Science to gain control of those that can't distinguish the facts of Science vs the facts of artificially fabricated fantasy.

And we have many many examples.

The COVID-19 'Science' Is Starting to Scare Me
By Rabbi Michael Barclay May 21, 2020 10:07 AM EST

As a rabbi, I have always looked at patterns and historical repetitions, and I have to admit… I am starting to get truly frightened. Not of coronavirus, earthquakes, or an increase in crime.

I am starting to get scared of “science”.

Not the scientific method that I grew up with of hypothesis, proof, and conclusion. But this strange and questionable “science” upon which public policies are now getting based. It is starting to remind me all too much of other policies based on “science” in the past. Historically, when public policies have been based in the science of the time, the policies have often led to dangerous and painful results.

When over 100 Chicago clergy opened their doors this past weekend to provide the essential services of spiritual nurturing through prayer in defiance of the stay-at-home order of Illinois Gov. Pritzker (D), the governor tweeted that he had “sympathy for leaders struggling with those choices — but not for those so intent on disregarding science & logic that they put people’s lives at risk.”

Governors Cuomo (D-New York) and Newsom (D-Calif.) have imposed draconian measures of quarantine and isolation based on “science” and in the process have determined that cannabis clubs, abortion clinics, and bike shops are all more “essential” than religious institutions.

The World Health Organization claimed on April 6 that science had determined that face masks were unnecessary for healthy people, and then determined by May that the science showed that everyone should wear a mask. Mayor Garcetti of Los Angeles has determined that the science shows that everyone needs to wear a mask as soon as leaving the house to prevent further spread of the virus.

Here in Ventura County, Calif., Dr Robert Levin has made it clear that the county will be hiring over 50 new staff to track people who have been exposed to COVID-19 and quarantine anyone who has been exposed, even removing them from their home environment (he tried to walk back his words a few days later, but you can listen to his actual words here. Dr. Levin’s science-based procedures are for a county that has fewer than 1/100 of one percent fatalities.

History shows us these same types of isolation practices and singling out of individuals or groups based on “science” before. The 18th-century zoologist Carl Linnaeus determined that the “African race” (as opposed to those from Europe) were “sly, lazy, cunning, lustful, careless, and governed by caprice.” His science proved that Asians were “severe, haughty, greedy, and ruled by opinions,” whereas the Europeans were “gentle, acute, inventive, governed by laws.”

This “scientific racism” was extended by Christopher Meiners (1747-1810), whose science demonstrated without a doubt that “negroes… feel less pain than others” and are “without emotion.” These and other “scientists” like them paved the way for justifying slavery. If those of African descent were less than human, then there was no reason to not treat them differently and even enslave them.

In 1912, Henry Goddard “scientifically” tested immigrants at Ellis Island and determined that 87% of Russians, 83% of Jews, 80% of Hungarians, and 79% of Italians were “feeble minded and had a mental age of less than 12.” His scientific proof was the foundation for the Immigration Act of 1924, restricting American immigration.

The twentieth century demonstrated the epitome of the dangers of “science” determining public policy in Europe. By 1933, German scientists had “proven without doubt” that there were different classes of humans; that the pure Aryan race was scientifically proven to be superior to all others; and that other categories such as Jews were “sub-human” (Untermenschen).

By definition, this meant that, like the black slaves of the 19th century, these sub-humans could and should be marked (with a yellow star if Jewish to distinguish them from the other more human races), isolated and quarantined, and even medically experimented on…all for the purpose of science and to protect the general public.

The Nuremberg Laws of 1935 codified into official public policy these anti-Semitic behaviors, all derived from the “modern science” of the time and based on the idea that the general populace should trust those scientists in order to protect the nation. Ultimately, this led to the Holocaust and the systematic killing of over six million Jews.

https://pjmedia.com/culture/rabbi-michael-barclay/2020/05/21/science-is-starting-to-scare-me-n412181

:munchin

Box

05-22-2020, 11:10

Agreed, Expert and Science are not always the same paradigm.

If we are all being honest about things... Scientist and Science are not always the same paradigm either.

Hell, for that matter, doctor and medicine apparently don't go together like they used to either.

...the word "expert" has pissed me off since I was a PFC and someone referred to an E-5 with a drinking problem as a subject matter expert.

Trapper John

05-22-2020, 12:38

JJ Your post by Rabbi Barclay precisely raises the issue to which I was referring when I said, "Now we are the unwitting subjects of a different experiment. But that's a subject for a different discussion."

I intend to follow-up on that point with Rabbi Barclay's comments as my lead.

Finest kind post as usual JJ.

Trapper John

05-23-2020, 15:06

https://theprint.in/health/hcq-breakthrough-icmr-finds-its-effective-in-preventing-coronavirus-expands-its-use/427583/?fbclid=IwAR1qT3AdzLeZ1xmQgTaC_ASZ3HmEiM24h6anA1p8 e5JYR4V0Dq5-GcdTTt8

What did I say? What DID I say??:lifter

HCQ breakthrough: ICMR finds it’s effective in preventing coronavirus, expands its use

Three studies find that hydroxychloroquine reduces chances of contracting Covid, so ICMR allows more frontline workers to take it as a preventive drug.

EricV

05-23-2020, 17:54

Badger52

05-23-2020, 21:35

What did I say? What DID I say??:lifter

HCQ breakthrough: ICMR finds it’s effective in preventing coronavirus, expands its use

Three studies find that hydroxychloroquine reduces chances of contracting Covid, so ICMR allows more frontline workers to take it as a preventive drug.Enjoy your "no shit Sherlock!" moment. :D I can hear that "Die Hard" voice now; "Welcome to the party, pal!" And, frankly, a bunch of America who've been reading more than a 'friends' list for the last 2 months will say it with you.

Let me guess; the CDC could not be reached for comment...

1stindoor

05-26-2020, 09:17

:D:D:D

Have you seen the latest test??

THAT test is for Democrats...because their nasal passage...attached to their head...is...you guessed it...in their rear.

Badger52

05-26-2020, 10:44

THAT test is for Democrats...because their nasal passage...attached to their head...is...you guessed it...in their rear.Clinical trials on the HCQ suppository?

GratefulCitizen

05-26-2020, 11:21

The line of attack will be that India has a financial interest.
Of course, this line of reasoning isn't used against big pharma or Bill Gates here...
https://www.businessinsider.in/business/news/india-biggest-producer-of-game-changer-hydroxychloroquine-drug-has-enough-capacity/articleshow/75031310.cms

Last hard class

05-26-2020, 11:44

https://www.thelancet.com/lancet/article/s0140673620311806

A study published Friday in the Lancet.

LHC

JJ_BPK

05-26-2020, 13:16

https://www.thelancet.com/lancet/article/s0140673620311806

A study published Friday in the Lancet.

LHC

All the progressives are touting this report as proof positive 45 is to blame and we're all gonna die.. :munchin

Badger52

05-26-2020, 13:39

All the progressives are touting this report as proof positive 45 is to blame and we're all gonna die.. :munchinAnd 45 made all those clinicians who've had success with not-yet-in-hospital patients become liars out of the clear blue sky. How many of the white coats in Ivory Towers will blow by the tailoring of the basic scenario, because Lancet? All I've really learned out of all this Atari Pong tennis match is that the experts aren't.

And Trump could wake up with a cure that costs 2-bits a dose while simultaneously aborting late-term babies in the Lincoln Bedroom and it would still be OrangeManBad.

JJ_BPK

05-26-2020, 16:04

All I've really learned out of all this Atari Pong tennis match is that the experts aren't.

Give this man a Kewpie Doll..
OR an autografted bottle of Old Crow..

:lifter:D:lifter

Badger52

05-27-2020, 04:27

Now I need some eye bleach! :cool:

1stindoor

05-27-2020, 06:10

Thanks JJ...that can never be unseen....ever:eek:

7624U

05-27-2020, 06:42

JJ did you make that disgusting picture. If so you have to much time on your hands.

JJ_BPK

05-27-2020, 07:01

JJ did you make that disgusting picture. If so you have to much time on your hands.

No, I can not take credit for that master piece

Trapper John

05-27-2020, 08:59

https://www.thelancet.com/lancet/article/s0140673620311806

A study published Friday in the Lancet.

LHC

This is a study for treatment of Covid-19 not prevention!

So there is no confusion here, let me emphasize, I expected efficacy for prevention of Covid-19 based upon the mechanism of action for HCQ as published in the Lancet article I referenced. This was confirmed by the ICMR clinical study.

At no time have I advocated HCQ for treatment of Covid-19! Quite the contrary. HCQ is not effective and produces serious adverse events, especially in elderly patients (usually with co-morbidities) when used for treatment!

I am working on a combination therapy that includes Remdesivir plus a drug that I developed to target the cytokine storm that is induced in Covid-19 patients.

FWIW, 45 was using HCQ for prevention of disease.

Trapper John

05-27-2020, 09:06

Thanks JJ...that can never be unseen....ever:eek:

Yeah, but ya got to admit that it was pretty damn funny! :D

Badger52

05-27-2020, 10:23

Yeah, but ya got to admit that it was pretty damn funny! :DKnowing how vulnerable it is, it would be a shame if someone broke into some Congress Critter's 'Zoom'© teleconference discussing proxy voting plans in the House and that came up on the wall monitor instead. Just a hypothetical...
:munchin

rsdengler

05-27-2020, 12:23

Give this man a Kewpie Doll..
OR an autografted bottle of Old Crow..

:lifter:D:lifter

Hahahaha....That's just wrong, I'm scarred for life....But funny, the boobs look like Aunt Mazie's Cow's Utter......Bahahahahaha...:D

Box

05-27-2020, 12:48

Hahahaha....That's just wrong, I'm scarred for life....But funny, the boobs look like Aunt Mazie's Cow's Utter......Bahahahahaha...:D

Aunt Mazie's Cow was a lot less horrific and was still in good enough shape to give milk.

Trapper John

05-27-2020, 18:48

Knowing how vulnerable it is, it would be a shame if someone broke into some Congress Critter's 'Zoom'© teleconference discussing proxy voting plans in the House and that came up on the wall monitor instead. Just a hypothetical...
:munchin

:D I don't know which would be worse, the discussion or the pic? :eek:

But either way it sure would be Finest Kind entertainment.:lifter

Oh if I only had that skill set!

Quartz_MJC

05-28-2020, 06:44

A PDF of power point slides which presents the COVID-19 data which can be found at the CDC website. References are included on the last slide. I originally but the CDC data together to provide my son (15 yrs old) information. What has puzzled me the most is a change in the response paradigm given the data. Initial the plan was to minimize infection so as not to overwhelm the medical infrastructure. However, it appears now the plan is to prevent infection.

Box

05-28-2020, 07:44

Much bullshit exists in those slides if left out of context. They show a 6% mortality and then show a slide with additional data that shows "COVID ONLY" but fail to explain what that actually means....

"He fell off a bridge after being infected with COVID-19" equals a 6% mortality rate.
Why in the fuck would a sane person even build that into their statistics?

It also neglects to report the now VERY well known fact that countless people have been infected, symptomatic, ill, recovered, and back to normal without ever reporting themselves to a statistic tracking medical facility...
-which lowers the mortality more
It also neglects to report that there are countless people that have contracted the virus and remained asymptomatic throughout the course...
-which again, lowers the mortality rate even more.

Then it uses what is probably the most ridiculous move in the history of medical statistics and reports on that popular age group known as the "18-64" year old demographic.
18-64 is the highest percentage of those infected - well - FUCK.ME
What fucking demographic have you EVER seen ANYWHERE in the history of numbers that uses 18-64 as a single demographic? (unless of course you are trying to manipulate your own statistics to help prove some bizarre predetermined outcome)
...again, statistics done by folks that surely earned D's and C's in their college statistics courses - a bunch of mutts manipulating statistics to swell their budget and justify their existence. .

Here's a statistic:
- the largest demographic of licensed drivers in the USA is the 18-80 age group - over 98% of fatal car accidents by licensed drivers are from that one single demographic.

The stated reason for all of this bullshit was to flatten the curve to prevent overwhelming a health care system that was never actually overwhelmed.
until that narrative no longer fit
then it was to slow the spread
until that narrative no longer worked
then it was to prevent infection
until that narrative stopped working
now we are being told it is to hold off the inevitable until there is a vaccine
now that same asshole who said a second wave was inevitable has been forced to change the narrative once again...
...maybe a second wave ISNT inevitable

Millions of dollars spent setting up doomsday COVID hospitals that were torn down with little to no active COVID patients treated in those facilities.

"Shifting paradigm" is by far the most polite way I can imagine to say the health experts are all full of shit and resorted to talking out of their ass....
...unless I have been watching a different scenario unfold over the last few months

Fuck these people.
Fuck them right in their stupid asses.