The Two America's And The WTC Mosque Debate

Irishsquid · 08-16-2010, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad

That was an outstanding article. I think many Americans find their feet in both camps

I'm definitely one of those. I DO see America as having a distinctive culture, but I think it is (or at least should be) a culture of allegiance to the Constitution, where the newest arrival is just as American as anyone, provided he/she shows allegiance to the Constitution before the "old country." Sadly, most native-born Americans have no such allegiance to the Constitution...in fact, most don't even know what it says.

akv · 08-16-2010, 15:01

Good article, sums things up well IMHO

EasyIan · 08-16-2010, 18:36

Although it has been expressed already, I still must commend you on this post. A quality find which brings together both perspectives.

Ian

T-Rock · 08-16-2010, 18:50

Did John Edwards write that

rdret1 · 08-17-2010, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishsquid

I'm definitely one of those. I DO see America as having a distinctive culture, but I think it is (or at least should be) a culture of allegiance to the Constitution, where the newest arrival is just as American as anyone, provided he/she shows allegiance to the Constitution before the "old country." Sadly, most native-born Americans have no such allegiance to the Constitution...in fact, most don't even know what it says.

I agree with you. I have no problem at all with someone who wishes to immigrate here, but if they do, I expect them to live by our rules. It aggravates me to see anyone refer to themselves as (put name here) - American. They are either American or they are not. I have no problem with anyone celebrating their own unique heritage, but if they have decided to become citizens here, they need to observe our customs as well.

I think we, as a country are blessed, in that we have melded the customs of many countries, and cultures, into our own. We are able to see and enjoy the customs of various cultures equally, while simultaneously remaining loyal to the constitution and our own national pride. Yes, we as a nation have made many mistakes when dealing with others; the treatment of Native Americans, the Japanese internments during WWII, the treatment of black Americans, etc. I would hope that we have learned from these mistakes.

On the other hand, when a group sets themselves apart, demanding recognition of their own customs, which may run counter to our constitution; i.e. Sharia law, I find that unacceptable.

**Peregrino** · 08-17-2010, 08:27

Nor is the solution new.

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Richard · 08-17-2010, 10:28

One should beware of using an 'upper-crust' politician like Teddy Roosevelt - a friend and endorser of Madison Grant's 'scientific racism' (whose book, The Passing of the Great Race, argued for a strong eugenics program in order to save the waning "Nordic race" from inundation by other racial types and suggested the state had a moral obligation to put certain immigrant types to death) - when arguing the idea of 'Americanism.'

Grant's book was praised by his friend, former president Theodore Roosevelt, who wrote: "The book is a capital book: in purpose, in vision, in grasp of the facts that our people must need to realize.... It is the work of an American scholar and gentleman, and all Americans should be grateful to you for writing it." Much depends, obviously, on how one interprets words like "elimination" and "worthless race types". The Passing of the Great Race was translated into German in 1925, and Grant received a fan letter from aspiring politician Adolf Hitler as well: "The book is my Bible," wrote Hitler to Grant.

http://personal.uncc.edu/jmarks/eugenics/eugenics.html

Richard

Sigaba · 08-17-2010, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdret1

I agree with you. I have no problem at all with someone who wishes to immigrate here, but if they do, I expect them to live by our rules. It aggravates me to see anyone refer to themselves as (put name here) - American. They are either American or they are not. I have no problem with anyone celebrating their own unique heritage, but if they have decided to become citizens here, they need to observe our customs as well.

Maybe people refer to themselves as hyphenated Americans because one of this nation's oldest and strongest customs is exclusion. That is, the haves finding reason after reason after reason to argue why the have nots are not worthy of all the rights and privileges of being American.

alright4u · 08-17-2010, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Maybe people refer to themselves as hyphenated Americans because one of this nation's oldest and strongest customs is exclusion. That is, the haves finding reason after reason after reason to argue why the have nots are not worthy of all the rights and privileges of being American.

Class Warfare. Unreal.

Sigaba · 08-17-2010, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by alright4u

Class Warfare. Unreal.

Sir, you may be reading my post too narrowly. I did say "rights and privileges."

alright4u · 08-17-2010, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Sir, you may be reading my post too narrowly. I did say "rights and privileges."

This Mosque is not about that. This mosque, in my opinion, is a slap in the face to more dead then Pearl Harbor.

**Peregrino** · 08-17-2010, 13:36

Richard - Why do you feel the need to discredit the message by attacking the messenger? Awfully progressive of you. I don't have to agree with everything someone says/does to find value in some of it - I even agree with you occasionally. I can think of a myriad of other, to my mind more important, reasons to denigrate Teddy R (or at least his politics later in his career). His progressive political rhetoric had far more impact on the growth of American liberalism than his "glowing endorsement of a friend's book". To what degree are you condemning eugenics when most modern "progressives" (again TR's self description, strongly supported by his politics) adamantly defend abortion? Is that not a form of eugenics too?

Raschid · 08-20-2010, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by alright4u

This Mosque is not about that. This mosque, in my opinion, is a slap in the face to more dead then Pearl Harbor.

Respectfully i disagree allright4u. My sister was at WTC on 9-11 the building were she worked directly opposite (later "pulled")she wasnt hurt "physically "thank God/Allah(Same).
Around 50 Muslims were murdered on that day in WTC (One a NYC Police Academy Cadet/ Rescue Team Member). And there must of been several Muslim Prayer rooms in the WTC.
We are Americans We are Muslims and like the German Kaiser Wilhelm II said : "We Germans fear only God...and NOTHING else in the world!"
We got Muslim SF-SSGT Ayman Taha KIA 2005 in Iraq (5th SFG) we got Selim "Sal" Baskurt SF Rep. VN.
My sister is a LIVING Victim of 9-11 . We now our constitutional rights and we will be damned if we dont stick up for them like Muhammad Ali did!
I personally know a former Vice-Director National Security Agency who has reverted to Islam some 4o years ago.

so my 2 cents

Irishsquid · 08-17-2010, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by alright4u

They damn sure did not demand press 1 or 2.

I don't know anything about SOG or the NYT, so this is the only part of your post I have a reply for. I don't think most immigrants "demand," press 1 or 2.(I know some do, particularly some of my neighbors to the south, but MOST don't.) That said, if I start a business, you can bet I'll make damn sure my secretary or admin assistant or whatever is AT LEAST bilingual. Why? Better profit margins for me. Press 1 or 2 is not about a group demanding concessions...it's about a business trying to expand their customer base and profit margins.

Thomas Paine · 08-18-2010, 04:42

August 18, 2010
When Rights Make Wrongs
By Ralph Peters

Well-meaning Westerners are quick to point out that jihad doesn't have to be violent. That's true. Jihad expands Islam's domain by any means available.

The 13-story mosque complex to be built a home-run's length from Ground Zero is jihad--not a gesture to promote inter-faith tolerance.

We are also told that we must be sensitive to the feelings of Muslims. This, too, is true. But isn't it equally true that Muslims should be sensitive to non-Muslims?

Would it not be wise and virtuous to respect the memory of our dead, the emotions of victims' families, and the sanctity with which so many Americans imbue Ground Zero?

Is the establishment media correct that the two-thirds of Americans opposed to a mega-mosque complex at that site are bigots? Or is willful insensitivity-even gloating-at play on the side of Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, the Cordoba Initiative's point-man on this project?

Finally, we are told-daily-that those behind the planned facility have the legal right to build. This, too, is irrefutably true.

But no one has questioned the legal right to construct this mosque complex. Far more than a First Amendment issue, this is a question of wise judgment, of good citizenship, of calculated insult and deep emotion.

Social peace requires reciprocity. Each day, each one of us chooses not to do many things that would be legal but offensive to those around us. Even in our permissive society, restraint keeps the peace.

Imam Rauf is not being a good citizen. He is not "building bridges," but exploiting the arrogance of our cultural elite toward their fellow citizens. He is an exuberantly divisive figure, not a healer.

The glaring failure of our media has been their unwillingness to question the Cordoba Initiative with the same rigor they apply to the mosque's opponents: Who will fund the mosque complex? Why should so grandiose a project be built so far from the center of mass of New York's Muslim communities? Why scorn out of hand Governor Patterson's remarkably generous offer of free state land elsewhere in New York City?

The key to unlocking the Cordoba Initiative's secrets may lie in the funding. Why should Imam Rauf-so vocal in other regards-play coy about who will pay the center's bills (estimated at a minimum of a $100 million)?

The money probably will come, directly or indirectly, from Saudi Arabia and Persian Gulf states. If that's the case, it suggests divisive purposes. From Africa through Asia, I've seen Wahhabi "charity" at work. Invariably, the Saudi purpose in funding religious schools and mosques abroad (including in the US) has been to prevent Muslims from integrating into majority non-Muslim societies.

What if the purpose of the Cordoba Center is to provoke, to alienate non-Muslim and Muslim Americans from one another? That certainly would explain Imam Rauf's intransigence when it comes to insisting that his chosen site is the only acceptable site.

Are the intended victims of this travesty our Muslim fellow citizens, so many of whom are integrating successfully? Is the Cordoba Initiative really about aggravating social divisions? How does it serve our society for our media to refuse to ask such questions?

Even the use of the name "Cordoba" is brilliantly cynical. To Atlantis-will-rise-again! Leftists, medieval Cordoba, in Spain, is a fairy-tale example of Muslims, Christians and Jews living together amicably in a social compact called the convivencia.

What's left out of the fable is that Christian and Jews were distinctly second-class members of society heavily taxed for their faiths and subject to the whims of Muslim rulers. After a brief cultural flowering, Cordoba's rulers for centuries were Islamist fanatics from North Africa.

One cannot help but suspect that Imam Rauf and his backers are mocking us, gleefully turning our Constitution against us, and exploiting a media terrified of being accused of bigotry.

Last, but not least, this Ground-Zero mosque complex would be a symbol - not of reconciliation and tolerance, but of the greatest triumph of violent jihad in three centuries: 9/11.

Islam's ghazis-religious warriors--have always understood symbols. That's why the hijackers struck the Twin Towers, not a housing project. This mega-mosque complex will be interpreted by hardline fanatics as a monument to their 9/11 "victory."

Imam Rauf and his backers have every legal right to build their extravagant Islamic center within the lethal radius of Ground Zero. But the rest of us have the right to question why they insist on doing so.

Ralph Peters' latest book is "Endless War."

LINK:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ke_wrongs.html