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The Reaper
05-16-2006, 23:00
The intent of this thread is to discuss Disaster Preparedness and assist members of PS.com with their personal disaster planning.

We do not specifically teach disaster preparedness or urban/suburban survival in the SF Qualification Course or SERE. Having said that, with a few exceptions, the survival needs are the same.

Last year, I was asked to prepare a briefing on Terrorism preparedness for corporate managers. One of the first things I noted was that the preparations were very similar to those for natural disasters, and that the disasters were much more likely at any given location than a terrorist act. I would say that any significant disruption of basic services to a large number of people qualifies as a disaster. The Department of Transportation defines it as any occurrence that causes damage, ecological destruction, loss of human lives, or deterioration of health and health services on a scale sufficient to warrant an extraordinary response from outside the affected community area.

Regardless of how you define it, the disaster preparation process looks something like this:

Disaster Preparation

1. Identify/prioritize likely threats or disasters.
2. ID resources (internal and external)
3. Develop Courses of Action using a decision making process
4. Initiate disaster preparation; acquire skills, materials, etc.
5. Establish responsibilities, conduct rehearsals, conduct internal and external quality assurance checks, document, revise and repeat.

How you prepare for disasters will depend on the threats you face and the remaining social structure you anticipate during and after a catastrophe. A disaster can be natural, or manmade. It could be pandemic, a hurricane, a wildfire, an earthquake, a flood, or a war. It is likely that sometime in your life, no matter where you live, you will be without normal amenities for an extended period of days, weeks, or even more. A facility based analysis of disaster threats would look as follows.

Disaster Analysis

Frequency of Occurrence:

• Highly likely (Near 100% probability in the next year)
• Likely (Between 10% and 100% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 10 years)
• Possible (Between 1% and 10% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 100 years)
• Unlikely (Less than 1% probability in the next 100 years)

Seasonal pattern?

• No
• Yes. Specify season(s) when hazard occurs:

Potential Impact:

• Catastrophic (Multiple deaths; shutdown of critical facilities for 1 month or more; more than 50% of property severely damaged)
• Critical (Injuries or illness resulting in permanent disability; shutdown of critical facilities for at least 2 weeks; 25% to 50% of property severely damaged)
• Limited (Temporary injuries; shutdown of critical facilities for 1-2 weeks; 10% to 25% of property severely damaged)
• Negligible (Injuries treatable with first aid; shutdown of critical facilities for 24 hours or less; less than 10% of property severely damaged)

Are any areas or facilities more likely to be affected (e.g., air, water, or land; infrastructure)? If so, which?

Speed of Onset:

• Minimal or no warning
• 6 to 12 hours warning
• 12 to 24 hours warning
• More than 24 hours warning

Potential for Cascading Effects?

• No
• Yes. Specify effects:

After living in Hawaii, Central America, the Caribbean, and the US on the Eastern Seaboard and Gulf coasts, I can tell you that when the hurricane is a few days out is no time to prepare a plan and to try to buy your necessities. Given the projections, when Phase V of a pandemic occurs, you will be unlikely to be able to acquire sufficient quantities of supplies to make survival somewhat more comfortable. You need to identify required resources, determine what you have on hand and what you will require, prioritize them according to relative importance, likelihood of need, and consequences, and develop an acquisition plan to meet your needs in a logical fashion (in accordance with your means).

The survival saw goes that you can survive six minutes without air, six days without water, and six weeks without food. While that is generally true, in each of those cases, you will not be doing much effectively after the first third of the respective period expires. It is up to you to see that you and any dependents have their needs (not necessarily wants) taken care of. It is not the government’s responsibility to take care of you, regardless of what our entitlement society's members believe. Those who expect the government to take care of them, review the Katrina tapes. Do you want to be airlifted off your roof to move to the Super Dome? Even well-meaning citizens will scramble and loot when they think they are going to run out of food and water and they see others getting away with it. You saw the looting of stores. If you are going to be the only one on the block with lights on and a generator humming away, once the stores are empty, guess where they are headed?

Thanks to modern transportation and economic efficiencies, your local box store or grocery has no attached warehouse. Everything they have is on the shelf, and to save money and space, it is normally only a few days of merchandise. If you live in an area that occasionally gets snow or hurricanes, you know what happens to the perishables and common necessities like bread, milk, eggs, batteries, bottled water, etc. There will not be more stuff appearing on the shelf until the trucks (and drivers) can get from the warehouse to the stores, and the stores have enough workers to open for business. There will be no more coming to the warehouse till the trucks (and drivers) get it from the distributors and wholesalers. Due to “Just in Time” manufacturing, there will be no more for them until the manufacturers (or growers, in the case of food) get their workers back on the jobs and their parts and components from the sub contractors, or increasingly today, the ports where they are brought in. The component makers will need labor and raw materials. You can see where this is headed. In the US, we live about 48 hours from a disaster. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, you saw what is likely to happen in the event of a localized catastrophe, with the rest of the country outside of the few affected states available to respond. Society imploded. Imagine what it would be like if the region, the country, the continent, or the world, are all experiencing their own disasters and are not available to help. The mobs looting and roaming the streets looking for food, booze, drugs, guns, or victims could be your neighbors. You need to decide now if you are going to be a sheep, a wolf, or a sheepdog, and prepare accordingly.

Next, you need to analyze your most likely courses of action. Will you stay where you are or move elsewhere to unite with others or to get away from them? This is an important consideration. If you live in NYC, any disaster of more than a few days is going to be difficult to survive and will require a lot of planning and preparation. If you saw New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, you might want to reconsider planning to remain in an urban area during a catastrophe of any duration. There will be little food and clean water, and the wolves will be taking what they need from the sheep. If you are going to relocate, you need to prepare in case you are stuck where you are, and for your destination as well. This means that you will need to ensure that you have the ability to relocate, to include reliable transportation, adequate fuel, a plan to pack what you need to take and secure your home in a certain amount of time, a route (and timeline) that will not leave you stuck on the highway when disaster occurs, and that your destination will be ready when you arrive. If you saw the highways outside of New Orleans and Houston just prior to their anticipated disasters last year, you can see the fallacy of waiting too late to initiate your plan or of not having reliable transportation. This decision can have a number of branches and sequels, depending on the nature of the disaster, prep/warning time, etc. The time to work all of that out is now. If you live in East Nowhere, Oklahoma, you will also need to prepare, but you may not need to travel. Now is the time to sit down and war game what could happen, starting with the most likely/most dangerous contingencies. If you live in the Rockies, a hurricane may be unlikely and relatively less important to you than someone in Florida, who will not be very concerned with an avalanche or blizzard. Work your way down to the lesser events. Plan your fight, then fight your plan, but remain flexible. You always want to have a contingency plan or two. That hurricane may zig, rather than zag. The epidemic may start next month, rather than next year. You may be hundreds of miles from home when the disaster strikes and you may be in a completely different situation at that location, better or worse.

The Reaper
05-16-2006, 23:01
Having spent some time in third world cultures, the average American takes far too much comfort and convenience in their lives for granted. NDD and I have shared some time in places where electric power, potable water, flush toilets, hot water, climate control, sanitary nutritious meals, personal transportation, medical and dental care, and even law enforcement were precious commodities in short supply, if available at all. You may or may not be able to flip a switch and get light, to turn on a tap and get water, or to push some buttons and contact someone you want to communicate with. Those of us who were driving in the early 70s remember waiting in long lines to buy small quantities of gas, you know what I mean. If you value these services, you have to do some planning and some preparation. The planning and development of courses of action costs noting but a little time, why not start today, before throwing money at potentially unnecessary products?

Base your plan on what services you consider vital, how long it will be before help, rescue, or normal conditions return, and how many people you will be providing for. Consider if you have additional people depending on you, whether they are family members, or you are the sort who wants to share with the entire neighborhood. As we have seen in the Pandemic Flu thread, if it mutates to a HTH strain, there are expected to be several waves of 4-6 weeks each, over a period of 18 months. There will be widespread absenteeism from work and school. When the truck driver who delivers the gas or groceries is sick (or his wife or kids), the tank or shelves are going to stay empty. The mortality rate is expected to be anywhere from .5% to 50%. Even if the lesser mortality rates occur, some of these people will be in critical positions in the manufacturing and distribution system, and consequences will follow. If the higher rate applies, there are going to be serious long-term implications. This will affect your ability to do everything from having electric power, to clean water, to gasoline, to fire and police protection, to food, to medical care. The experts are saying to have a plan for up to 90 days of essentials on hand. Full restoration of normalcy and amenities as we know them could take significantly longer. Take a clue from the Boy Scouts and be prepared.

You do not need to order a year’s supply of freeze-dried food for your family and stock up on a dozen cases of 5.56 ammo today. That is not planning, that is just stockpiling. First, as noted, you need to develop an appropriate, workable plan. Then, you need to prioritize your needs and develop a plan to acquire them in accordance with a realistic time line. You don’t have to get everything at once, but some will be high priorities and are more important to sustaining life than others. There are a number of needs and they need to be dealt with in a logical manner. As noted above, some will be a priority. You could start by taking a look at your plan and adding 10% or so to your weekly grocery buy of non-perishables. If you live in Death Valley and have your water trucked in weekly, you will have a different set of priorities than someone who lives on Lake Michigan. Figure it out and plan accordingly. The following is a sort of laundry list of requirements in a semi-prioritized fashion. We can cover each of them in more detail later.

Breathable Air
First Aid/Medicine/Escape gear
Defense
Shelter/Warmth/Light
Water
Food/cooking
Sanitation
Commo
Power/Fuel
Tools
Transportation/Mobility
Entertainment

After you have determined the necessities to support your courses of action, you need to develop the supporting plan to acquire them.

The plan has to take into consideration the type of disaster, relative importance of the items, available budget for acquisition, and last but not least, available storage space. Get the most important items first, but not necessarily to the exclusion of other items. That year’s supply of 5 gallon buckets of hard red wheat may be a comfort to have stacked in your garage, but without a grain mill, the other ingredients, and a means to bake bread, they are not really much good except as barter to someone else who has those items. The ammo is useless without the weapon, and vice versa. Make sure that you consider those related needs before initiating your plan.

If you need skills or training, get it now. You need to know that you can bake bread before the shelves go empty. If you do not know how to do CPR, there is no time like the present. In many places, classes are free. Make sure that you know how to operate and maintain that shiny new generator before the lights go out. How long before it needs maintenance? Do you know how to do it, have the tools and supplies? If you are not sure which way the pointy things go in your new pistol, get some training. Can you really use that water purification device and provide enough potable water for the people you are trying to care for? Are you going to do it all by yourself? What if you are the first victim or are away from home when the disaster occurs? Does everyone know where the supplies are and how to use them? Get the skills, inventory, assign responsibilities, rehearse, make notes of deficiencies (human or material), correct them, make changes as needed to the plans, develop additional contingencies as required, and reevaluate periodically to ensure that you are ready. Only then will you really be prepared for a disaster. And fortune truly favors the prepared.

tk27
05-17-2006, 11:40
Excellent post, Thank you Sir.

Roycroft201
05-17-2006, 15:52
We can cover each of them in more detail later.


Please do. Your efforts to educate us are greatly appreciated, TR.

The Reaper
05-17-2006, 16:31
Please do. Your efforts to educate us are greatly appreciated, TR.

I appreciate the kind words, but this topic does not appear to be of much interest.

Maybe I should have made it an installment, and judged interest before I wrote more than the first chapter. I do not intend to waste any more time on it if it is not of value.

We can let it run a few more days and see what happens.

TR

jbour13
05-17-2006, 16:35
Sir, I'm interested in it for it's face value. It's easy to digest and very informative.

If this thread shuts out I'll buy you a beer and talk it over, deal? :D

PSM
05-17-2006, 17:23
I like the idea of preparing a written plan.

Having lived in earthquake country for more than half my life, I’ve thought through, and implemented in 1994, a survival plan. But, having not written it down, I have dropped the ball at least once. My wife does not like to ride bicycles any more and talked me into selling hers. Reading this thread I realized that that bike was one of our emergency transportation options. Had I had a written plan I would not have made that mistake. (Wait till she hears I have to buy a new bike.) :D

Also new things pop up all the time (especially while reading PS.com). The thread on thumb drives led me to list what information could be transferred to a Bug-Out Thumb Drive. It’s pretty impressive including scanned copies of licenses, insurance documents, and photos.

I snatched this from the Equipped to Survive site: “Prepare for the worst-case-scenario, because the worst-case-scenario is not being prepared”

Pat

CPTAUSRET
05-17-2006, 17:37
I like it! It's well thought, well presented, w/no BS!

It'd be a shame to let it die out!

Terry


"You do not need to order a year’s supply of freeze-dried food for your family and stock up on a dozen cases of 5.56 ammo today. That is not planning, that is just stockpiling. First, as noted, you need to develop an appropriate, workable plan. Then, you need to prioritize your needs and develop a plan to acquire them in accordance with a realistic time line. You don’t have to get everything at once, but some will be high priorities and are more important to sustaining life than others. There are a number of needs and they need to be dealt with in a logical manner. As noted above, some will be a priority. You could start by taking a look at your plan and adding 10% or so to your weekly grocery buy of non-perishables. If you live in Death Valley and have your water trucked in weekly, you will have a different set of priorities than someone who lives on Lake Michigan. Figure it out and plan accordingly. The following is a sort of laundry list of requirements in a semi-prioritized fashion. We can cover each of them in more detail later."

Breathable Air
First Aid/Medicine/Escape gear
Defense
Shelter/Warmth/Light
Water
Food/cooking
Sanitation
Commo
Power/Fuel
Tools
Transportation/Mobility
Entertainment

jasonglh
05-17-2006, 17:39
I appreciate the kind words, but this topic does not appear to be of much interest.

Maybe I should have made it an installment, and judged interest before I wrote more than the first chapter. I do not intend to waste any more time on it if it is not of value.

We can let it run a few more days and see what happens.

TR

Sir this topic is of great interest to me. From the pandemic thread and others here I have begun assembling the things that I need for disaster planning. Any information you would provide would be a great asset.

Funny I had spent a great deal of time working on planning for disasters and mass casualties locally from the patient care side, owever until now never gave home planning much thought. I suppose I always figured I would be out there anyway.

Gypsy
05-17-2006, 19:55
TR, first opportunity I've had to log in today and I must say I am most interested and appreciative of the time you've already spent in composing this. Thank you. I hope you will see fit to continue as this is invaluable information, and I'll be discussing this with my family/friends near and far.

Surf n Turf
05-17-2006, 20:31
I appreciate the kind words, but this topic does not appear to be of much interest.

Maybe I should have made it an installment, and judged interest before I wrote more than the first chapter. I do not intend to waste any more time on it if it is not of value.

We can let it run a few more days and see what happens.

TR

TR, Excellent Read --- Please continue

SnT

lksteve
05-17-2006, 20:35
I appreciate the kind words, but this topic does not appear to be of much interest.not very patient, are we...?:D

it's a good topic...one that folks haven't thought much about after Y2K and before Katrina...

jatx
05-17-2006, 21:07
Sir,

You have put excellent structure around a big, messy problem for us. Thank you.

catd11r
05-17-2006, 22:34
Thank you Sir for sharing your wisdom with us, it is certainly appreciated by myself , as I have been making preparations for such a emergency.

vsvo
05-17-2006, 22:58
Sir, I'm very interested, thank you for presenting this information. Your well-structured thoughts and advice will greatly aid and guide my planning with my family. I have nothing of value to add to the discussion, but I have been reading and learning.

shadowflyer
05-17-2006, 23:15
I am in a strange position as I prepare to deploy overseas. I am trying to get my family prepared for a deployment as well as begin preparations for "situations" that may occur. I am a Firefighter/EMT for a large metropolitan department near Atlanta by trade and of course would be on the frontlines of any Disaster/Pandemic. I am having a hard time convincing my wife that this thing could get "real" before I get back from deployment and that we need to be thinking about it and start preparing for such an event.

She is stressed as it is with me leaving my family for deployment and also listening to me tell her we need to be preparing for future events. She is not getting it....she tells me point blank...I dont have time to worry about getting ready for a pandemic that may or may not hit before you get back from deployment or 5 or 10 years down the road.

How would y'all try and convince her that is NOT the attitude to take.

*Sidebar--TR I will just be getting back from some "things" at FTCKY but will try and effect a link-up with y'all at BLADE 2006 if possible.

JJ

x SF med
05-18-2006, 08:07
TR-
I think the post is great - reminds me how little prepared I actually am at the moment. I live in a HPD area, with little nor no 'real' security around infrastructure / service TOAs. The post made me think about how I would need to get out of the AO should an incident occur - and realized I didn't have an E&E plan (getting old and soft, I suppose).

In short - please continue.

Goggles Pizano
05-18-2006, 09:27
Planning with regard to civilians is difficult Sir as you well know. Please continue as this a perfect way to ensure preparedness in our own homes, and of course it can be passed to friends and family.

FILO
05-18-2006, 09:51
Frequency of Occurrence:

• Highly likely (Near 100% probability in the next year)
• Likely (Between 10% and 100% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 10 years)
• Possible (Between 1% and 10% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 100 years)
• Unlikely (Less than 1% probability in the next 100 years)

TR-great thread as always.

I see the above to be the key issue as it relates to getting the public, or in my case, CINC House, to take this stuff serious. In fact, most folks are totally clueless about risk management. They think the risk of something bad happening to them to be nil, thus there is no need for preparation.

Professionally, I'm involved in risk management as it relates to fraud. Some very so called sophisticated and intelligent folks live in their own little world of self-denial and are dismissive of developing any type of scientific approach to managing risk. They think it’s a waste of resources or view anyone thinking along these lines as “Chicken Little," part of the “Tin Foil Crowd” or worse, profiteers. Granted there is a growing movement in both the corporate and government community to take risk management seriously, but there is a long way to go!

The Reaper
05-18-2006, 10:08
The way we do risk assessment in the Army is to compare the likelihood to the potential severity to obtain a level of risk and then in the case of higher risk activities, attempt to mitigate it.

I strongly suspect that this was a civilian industry practice we adopted, it has its pros and cons. To me, the key point is risk awareness. Outside of airborne operations, many people had never before looked at what they were doing and what could happen with a good thorough review. The issue beyond that is organizations that become risk averse, failing to adequately prepare their soldiers due to the possibility that someone could be hurt.

In the case of a hurricane, we have pretty good models and predictions to help with our analysis. With a potential avian flu pandemic, as mugwump has pointed out, we have a lot of fluctuations in both the probability of HTH transmission occuring, and the potential mortaility rate. This may be a case where you have to review your normal preparations and plan to add what you can use in any disaster anyway now, and to pick up a few more items or make changes in our activity as we see which way this may break. The key is going to be identifying a critical point, and acting quickly once that is reached, before the supply system is cleared out and good social order breaks down. For example, it is a bit late to be shopping for Tamiflu, and it would not have a lot of potential use other than in a flu pandemic. OTOH, buying a generator could be a good move for a number of contingencies. You have to make your plan with the best available knowledge and resources, make changes as necessary, and act on it at the appropriate times.

TR

FILO
05-18-2006, 11:57
To me, the key point is risk awareness. TR

We are in agreement with but minor additional comments. The risk awareness has to be accompanied by:

1) realistic and achievable plans or options, and
2) a commitment, focus and follow through on the part of the decision-makers to incorporate the plan or option in the presence of an event, and
3) a regular assessment of the plans because things change.

If you don't have 1-3 risk management becomes an academic exercise and is of little practical use.

FILO
05-18-2006, 11:59
The way we do risk assessment in the Army is to compare the likelihood to the potential severity to obtain a level of risk and then in the case of higher risk activities, attempt to mitigate it.

I strongly suspect that this was a civilian industry practice we adopted, it has its pros and cons. TR

Yes, the civilian equivalent with respect to risk management uses a formula based on ALE:

ANNUAL LOSS EXPECTANCY. ALE is the foundation of risk assessment. It is what it sounds like: how much money you expect to lose per year due to some sort of security incident. Note that this is different than the raw cost of an incident (which, remember, you should always keep as a baseline). It's actually the raw cost times the probability of an event in the next year. So the ALE of a security breach that costs $1 million and has a 40 percent chance of happening is:

Incident cost X Probability of incident = ALE
$1,000,000 X 0.4 = $400,000

From a military or non-corporate setting the "incident cost" is replaced by some other measurable variable of value.

This is the simplistic version and you can get into more complex equations, but, at least its the begining process of evaluating risk from a scientific perspective. IMHO, risk management is another tool in the box and is a process which allows you to be better prepared to function as a result of unforeen occurences. However, I've seen folks get so caught up in the process they fail to see the forest. For example, the cost of measuring the process outweighs the actual cost posed by the risk.

Sten
05-18-2006, 13:17
Sir-

I am not sure if we want to get into the manusia of preparations on this thread or keep the discussion at 10,000 ft. If this post is inappropriate please tell me and I will edit it immeaditaly.

After talking with a friend I am going to buy a second (perhaps a third too) propane tank for my grill. The grill will provide a great back up to our indoor kitchen and we will not have to cook over wood or on my backpacking stove for a longer period of time.

We have been increasing our in pantry stocks of bulk pasta, rice, tuna fish, long life cheese, soup mixes and assorted beans. We are up to about a four week supply. The time the food is going to last could easily be doubled by going to half rations early. All of this food can be packed and will fit in our car. We are cooking with the food so we are automatically rotating it for freshness. I need to add "full fat" powdered milk for my daughter and to make my "world class" wilderness mac and cheese.

We have our own well so water is not a problem for us if we have power. We need save up to get either a hand pump or a generator for the well. I need a few kerosene lamps and a gallon of kero for some old school lighting.

I am not overly worried about combat, we can defend ourselves from small unorganized threats. I have the "run like hell" plan for an organized threats but I do not see that as a big possibility.

mugwump
05-18-2006, 15:00
TR --

Back home now -- whirlwind trip -- I'll update the pandemic thread when I get everything I heard clear in my mind after I sleep. I'm a bit scattered - apologies if this is stream-of-consciousness blathering.

Great thread -- the disaster analysis algorithm really focused my thoughts. The "Frequency of Occurrence" scale seems spot on.

I got a quick peek at this, must have been the 16th? and it's been in the back of my mind since. What I thought then was you should hand out tasks surrounding your list:

Breathable Air
First Aid/Medicine/Escape gear
Defense
Shelter/Warmth/Light
Water
Food/cooking
Sanitation
Commo
Power/Fuel
Tools
Transportation/Mobility
Entertainment

I have specific unresearched concerns re: warmth (it can get -20F here), fuel storage (kerosene? storage life? I have propane tanks -- 3 of those barbecue-sized jobs and a few cases of 1-pound cylinders -- how long will that last for cooking, or w/ a catalytic heater?), commo (know nothing), defense (I'm all alone, suburban location, tactically naive), sanitation (no real plan), etc.

I agree that the focus should be general preparedness, but let me give an example in the pandemic realm as that's on my mind. I've seen stats that up to 15% might die from an otherwise survivable case of the flu because of dehydration (could be saved by a simple oral rehydration solution). I spent about 4 hours on the internet and came up with "use this", "no, that's obsolete, it'll kill you", "sucrose bad, glucose good", "sucrose and Morton's Lite salt is perfectly acceptable", "only use the UNESCO packets", "dilute Gatorade 3:1 with water". If you ask them, physicians are product oriented ("use Pedialyte"). Who has the space or $$$ for the several cases of Pedialyte that might be required for a family when a simple formula would suffice.

I'd like to see us split up the load, carefully research solutions, and present options somehow -- for good/better/best, short/medium/long term, urban/suburban/rural?

I'd like to see these topics researched and presented as I did with the HTH water purification post -- a "show all your work" presentation that can be peer-reviewed by PS.com and then given a seal of approval as a prudent, non-over-the-top, inexpensive, and safe/effective option to employ. Nobody has the time to do this stuff alone. There are places on the net that try to gather this information -- some could be used as resources -- but lack of discipline and general asshattery lead to chaos and just more conflicting opinions that aren't backed up.

Nobody can do your planning for you, but some of this stuff could be doled out I'd think.

Something I saw in the airport:

“Despite Hurricane Katrina’s devastation of Louisiana and Mississippi, coastal residents have not taken steps to protect their families if a hurricane were to threaten their homes, according to a poll released Tuesday.

Sixty percent of those questioned have no disaster plan, 68 percent don’t have a hurricane survival kit and 83 percent have not taken steps to make their homes stronger, the poll said.

Also, 48 percent of people living within 30 miles of the Atlantic and Gulf coasts said they don’t feel vulnerable to a hurricane, according to the survey by Mason-Dixon Polling and Research Inc.

National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield said he is baffled by the apparent lack of concern.”

http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/wireStory?id=1970314

mugwump
05-18-2006, 15:11
"I have specific unresearched concerns re: warmth (it can get -20F here), fuel storage (kerosene? storage life? I have propane tanks -- 3 of those barbecue-sized jobs and a few cases of 1-pound cylinders -- how long will that last for cooking, or w/ a catalytic heater?), commo (know nothing), defense (I'm all alone, suburban location, tactically naive), sanitation (no real plan), etc."

Read my post again, sorry for all of the "I...I...I" stuff. I guess what I was trying to say is that there must be others here in the same boat -- clueless in some areas but quite knowledgeable in others -- and we could share the load.

Stargazer
05-18-2006, 15:26
The Reaper, excellent information. Thank you.

x SF med
05-18-2006, 16:03
Mugwump-
Kero is a first level distillate like diesel, and will collect biocrud if not treated (not as badly as diesel) also cetane rated fuels have a shelf life of about 3-6 months before they start to degrade, kero is at the far end (6mo) side of the scale. Hope this helps, glad I own a diesel vehicle, had to learn this stuff - so I don't kill it.

The Reaper
05-18-2006, 18:34
Okay, we can try to discuss some of the planning considerations for the categories of needs we mentioned.

Under what disasters might breathable air be a concern?

TR

x SF med
05-18-2006, 18:49
1. a flooding situation
2. a fire
3. chemical spill / explosion
4. nuclear issue
5. high wind / dust situation
6. Bridge / Tunnel collapse
7. Injury to thoracic / cervical / cranial anatomies - or any hypovolemic situation.

I probably missed some, but I think I covered most of them

Each has a slightly different Breathable Air issue - but the Airway is compromised in all of the above

Sten
05-18-2006, 18:53
Under what disasters might breathable air be a concern?

TR

HTH bird flu.

JPH
05-18-2006, 20:32
TR --

I'd like to see us split up the load, carefully research solutions, and present options somehow -- for good/better/best, short/medium/long term, urban/suburban/rural?

I'd like to see these topics researched and presented as I did with the HTH water purification post -- a "show all your work" presentation that can be peer-reviewed by PS.com and then given a seal of approval as a prudent, non-over-the-top, inexpensive, and safe/effective option to employ. Nobody has the time to do this stuff alone. There are places on the net that try to gather this information -- some could be used as resources -- but lack of discipline and general asshattery lead to chaos and just more conflicting opinions that aren't backed up.

Nobody can do your planning for you, but some of this stuff could be doled out I'd think.



I agree fully, no one can do your planning for you, however to do this right takes a lot of time, energy, money, and thought.

Additionally, as stated above, most people don’t have a realistic set of priorities. It would be great to have a place with likeminded individuals to review and offer opinions and insights in to different situations.

I have been thinking about this and other related subjects for the past year or so. I will stop here and allow those with a broader knowledge base than mind continue before presenting my thoughts and concerns.

TR Thank-You for starting this, I hope as well that it does not die young,

JPH

The Reaper
05-18-2006, 20:34
HTH bird flu.

Actually, that would still be breathable, just contaminated. We can cover that under medical. Nice try though.


1. a flooding situation
2. a fire
3. chemical spill / explosion
4. nuclear issue
5. high wind / dust situation
6. Bridge / Tunnel collapse
7. Injury to thoracic / cervical / cranial anatomies - or any hypovolemic situation.

I probably missed some, but I think I covered most of them

Each has a slightly different Breathable Air issue - but the Airway is compromised in all of the above

Good analysis, x!

1. is probably a result of not evacuating quickly enough and would require bottled air. Few floods occur so rapidly that we cannot evacuate to higher ground. Dam breaks and tsunamis would be the exception. If so, bad karma, unless you live below a dam of questionable stability.

2. is what I was primarily looking at, and is the highest probability of all those listed. If you frequently travel, fly, or stay in hotels, you might want to consider an escape hood. They are designed to provide some head and neck thermal protection as well as filtering air of the worst parts for 15 minutes or so to let you breathe long enough to escape. I take one in my bag when I travel. The few minutes it provides should allow you to get clear of a fire.

3. would require a protective mask or bottled air (as would a terrorist attack by chemical weapons). If you live in an urban area or an area near a potential chemical problem (to include a railroad or major truck route) you need to be prepared with the appropriate gear. Note that once the alarm is given, you would be evacuating, not staying in place to wait it out.

4. should not effect air supplies. If radioactive particles are released, IIRC, they are large enough to be caught by a simple particulate filter mask, like an N95 mask. They are handy for a lot of contingencies, and I would pick some up sooner, rather than later. As a worst case, I would try covering the mouth and nose with a damp cloth. If you live that close to a potential nuclear problem you might want to pick up some of the potassium iodide tablets as well.

5. would also be breathable, like 4, but to be safe, I would recommend a filter mask like the N95. A wet cloth would also work.

6., if accompanied by tunnel flooding, is just very bad karma. I suppose that you could drive around with a SCUBA tank or HEEDS handy, but that is a pretty low probability event. Worrying about the bridge you are on collapsing is probably an indicator of bigger problems.

7. is medical, and is likely beyond the non-medical person's ability to deal with, unless classes and advanced equipment are available. My best suggestion would be to transport ASAP.

Look at where you live, work, or spend time and examine the probability of any of these occuring to you. 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 can kill you or those you are responsible for, so they are the highest severity. If any of those approach the possible category for you, you would probably be well advised to plan for them and prepare accordingly. Buying protective masks might be a good idea if you are concerned about surviving poison gases for a limited period of time. An escape hood would be a good idea if you travel frequently or live in a high rise dwelling. N95 masks would probably be a good idea for almost everyone as they have so many uses.

In almost all of the above situations, you are going to be advised to evacuate. Smart people look at their situation, all of the available information, and make informed decisions. Hey, if you live by yourself and want to ride the storm out with a case of beer, fine. Write your name on your extremities with a Magic Marker and have at it. If others are depending on you, do the smart thing and evacuate. Even if you have done it ten times, and nothing happened, remember the tapes of the Katrina survivors who stayed, and consider if you want your family left in that situation.

As far as this analysis goes, I would prefer to take one of the issues at the time and flog it to death till we have beaten all that we can out of it and move along to the next one. There are no real right or wrong answers. We can all learn together. Anyone gets out of line, I think we can deal with them.

Hope this helps.

TR

mugwump
05-18-2006, 20:42
HTH bird flu.

1. a flooding situation
2. a fire
3. chemical spill / explosion
4. nuclear issue
5. high wind / dust situation
6. Bridge / Tunnel collapse
7. Injury to thoracic / cervical / cranial anatomies - or any hypovolemic situation.

I probably missed some, but I think I covered most of them

Each has a slightly different Breathable Air issue - but the Airway is compromised in all of the above


So, we have 3(?) categories: 1) trapped with absence of/diminishing O2; 2) nasty, filterable stuff that'll kill you; 3) injuries that prevent inspiration.

Seems like the only one to reasonably plan for is #2. a) Short term: particulates - smoke (high rise fire) or radiologics or bioagents; b) short term: nasty gases; c) mid to long term intermittent exposure to infectious agents or spores, dust (1930s dust bowl), radiologics.

x SF med
05-19-2006, 07:56
TR-
you did not ask about probabilities for the situations, just the situations, so I took a walk down memory lane, and pulled conceivable situations. The flooding was for the COL, even though the waters are receding, because he sent the damn rain my way.

I'm not sure if I buy your particulate / filter argument - breathability is compromised, and without quick action there are long term issues that will affect survivability. Esp. in the NBC scenario, without protection form the Cesium 123 / or various incapacitating agents you are in deep deep kimshi - anything harder than an incap agt - well you're basically screwed anyway (yup NBC school put the fear of chem war into me).

In the most likely situations - Fire/smoke, non incidiary particulates - common sense should prevail, as long as you have your drive on rag and remember how to low crawl with a purpose.

Mug - dust can be categorized into the bio category also, most of the deaths from dust storms are delayed - due to soil borne contaminants (mycoplasmic spores / dormant viruses ie. pneumonae mycoplasmiae, p.viriliae, a whole series of v. shigellae - thank you to the d.board at medlab, my one attendance required the study of the "pneu" section of the Merck, and as extra credit I was required to have a good understandin of the section "resp")

Air.177
05-19-2006, 08:11
So, we have 3(?) categories: 1) trapped with absence of/diminishing O2; 2) nasty, filterable stuff that'll kill you; 3) injuries that prevent inspiration.

Seems like the only one to reasonably plan for is #2. a) Short term: particulates - smoke (high rise fire) or radiologics or bioagents; b) short term: nasty gases; c) mid to long term intermittent exposure to infectious agents or spores, dust (1930s dust bowl), radiologics.


May also include under c) debris from a 9/11 WTC style collapse. A lot of those folks are having big problems because of breathing all that stuff in that day.

The Reaper
05-19-2006, 09:23
TR-
you did not ask about probabilities for the situations, just the situations, so I took a walk down memory lane, and pulled conceivable situations. The flooding was for the COL, even though the waters are receding, because he sent the damn rain my way.

I'm not sure if I buy your particulate / filter argument - breathability is compromised, and without quick action there are long term issues that will affect survivability. Esp. in the NBC scenario, without protection form the Cesium 123 / or various incapacitating agents you are in deep deep kimshi - anything harder than an incap agt - well you're basically screwed anyway (yup NBC school put the fear of chem war into me).

In the most likely situations - Fire/smoke, non incidiary particulates - common sense should prevail, as long as you have your drive on rag and remember how to low crawl with a purpose.

Mug - dust can be categorized into the bio category also, most of the deaths from dust storms are delayed - due to soil borne contaminants (mycoplasmic spores / dormant viruses ie. pneumonae mycoplasmiae, p.viriliae, a whole series of v. shigellae - thank you to the d.board at medlab, my one attendance required the study of the "pneu" section of the Merck, and as extra credit I was required to have a good understandin of the section "resp")

Don't take it the wrong way, I am not complaining about your comments, you saved me some work too.

I am missing your radiological point though. All of the radioactive particles I am aware of will be stopped by an N95 mask. Are you saying that you need an NBC type mask for radiological contaminants?

As far as chem agents go, I would rather have my pro mask and a poncho than to be without any protection at all. OTOH, I live in a suburban area far from any likely terrorist targets. If the local water plant has a chlorine leak or a rail car of Chlorine overturns, IIRC, the pro mask will do just fine for a quick escape, as long as you remember to change the filters before using it again.

The N95s will work for dust as well, though as you note a wet drive on rag is better than a whole lot of nothing. I keep a dry one in my pocket all of the time.

Air .177, if you are under the debris, your mobility may be restricted to the point that you cannot reach your own pockets. The biggest threat there is crush injuries. The firefighters who died when the towers fell were wearing respirators (Scott Air Packs). OTOH, if I were going down to a WTC type emergency to work after the incident, and it had been cleared of noxious gasses, I would not work there without an particulate mask of some kind.

On 9/11, all of those above the crash line in one of the towers were doomed as there were no surviving stairwells. In the other, IIRC, one stairwell remained servicable. IMHO, if the workers had started evacuating immediately and had an escape hood and a good flashlight, many of them would have survived.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

x SF med
05-19-2006, 09:43
TR-
No offense taken. Too much info (ie NBC school & 18D - makes for a dangerous combo in discussing airway compromise) the mind starts reeling away, uncontrollably.

I agree that the most likely situation is Fire/Smoke.
My argument as to Cesium 123 is that .0003 mCg inhaled (about 1 tiny breath) increases the chance of lung / metastacized cancers by over 80% - and the dirty bomb scenario feels much more likely anymore given the plethora of 'lost' N munitions / spent plutonium rodding / expended N fuel and waste available to the bad guys, coupled with the 'free society', no visible security mentality prevalent in the US.

I'm done, sorry for the hijack, shall we proceed?

Air.177
05-19-2006, 09:43
TR: Sorry I was not specific, You are correct, if you are trapped under a metric ton of concrete, a mask is the least of your worries.

I was referring to the folks in surrounding buildings and outlying areas that were enveloped in the dust/debris cloud when the towers went down. I have heard that lots of those folks as well as some of the remaining rescue personnel are having respiratory problems from all of the particulate matter they took in that morning and in the rescue/recovery that followed.

Also, the airpacks most firefighters were wear are only good for 30-60 minutes breathable air in most cases.

The Reaper
05-19-2006, 10:05
TR-
No offense taken. Too much info (ie NBC school & 18D - makes for a dangerous combo in discussing airway compromise) the mind starts reeling away, uncontrollably.

I agree that the most likely situation is Fire/Smoke.
My argument as to Cesium 123 is that .0003 mCg inhaled (about 1 tiny breath) increases the chance of lung / metastacized cancers by over 80% - and the dirty bomb scenario feels much more likely anymore given the plethora of 'lost' N munitions / spent plutonium rodding / expended N fuel and waste available to the bad guys, coupled with the 'free society', no visible security mentality prevalent in the US.

I'm done, sorry for the hijack, shall we proceed?

We are proceeding just fine, IMHO. We can have a spirited academic argument about preparations all we want here, that is the purpose of the thread. I hope that others do not mind.

My point is that the particles must make it through the mask and into the lungs to be a breathing problem, and I do not think that the particles exceed the N95 mask filtration size of 1-10 microns, IIRC.

Thanks, Air, that clears that up. The pro mask will do as good or better job of filtration of particles, but at a substantial comfort and expense premium.

HTH.

TR

Peregrino
05-19-2006, 12:48
Here are some thoughts to add to the breathable air discussion. Lowes has boxes of 20 ea. NIOSH N95 rated masks by AO Safety for 19.95. They also have 2 packs of the same mask at 4.95 ea. Some real "economy of scale" in the purchase possibilities. Same goes for the requisite latex/nitrile gloves. I bring this up for several reasons.
1. Non-traditional sources have a lot of useful items provided you are willing to think outside the box and adapt what's available to what's required.
2. Buying it at Lowes saved time, shipping & handling, and the usual markup associated with medical/survival supplies.
3. The only thing important is the rating (by a reputable agency - in this case NIOSH). Brand names and fancy packaging just mean higher prices and reduced availability when people programmed by marketing experts make a run on the traditional sources.
4. If you can't find the ideal solution - don't be afraid to do the best you can. As TR and others have already noted a wet cravat is far better than nothing. You have to survive the initial incident to be alive to complain about silicosis 5-10 years later.
5. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. If your assessment of the risk says you have to have an NBC mask and none are available, are you going to procrastinate waiting on the perfect solution, or are you going to act decisively to implement an interim solution? What's wrong with a full face (best) or a half face + dive mask (got to protect eyes/tear ducts) VOC (or appropriate to the expected threat - don't forget Bhopal) rated filter mask as an interim measure until the ideal solution is available? Masks with replaceable cartridge filters certified for a wide range of hazards from simple dust to some very volitile chemicals are available from industrial supply houses (or Lowes/Home Depot) for reasonable cost. As long as there is enough Oxygen to sustain life, there is usually an available filter that will last long enough to permit evacuation. The commercial filters may not last as long as military rated ones but they are readilly available and easy to change out. Again - If it lasts long enough to evacuate, it's served it's purpose.

Just some additional thoughts. BTW - Great thread, it's even got HH6's attention. Peregrino

x SF med
05-19-2006, 13:59
Peregrino-
you forgot that they also carry the Tyvek coveralls "painting coveralls / asbestos removal coveralls" for a very reasonable price - a great investment, along with a piezo electric (squeeze) flashlight -- Actually I use the tyvek, N95 / nitrile combo to sand and paint the boat.

Peregrino
05-19-2006, 14:19
Peregrino-
you forgot that they also carry the Tyvek coveralls "painting coveralls / asbestos removal coveralls" for a very reasonable price - a great investment, along with a piezo electric (squeeze) flashlight -- Actually I use the tyvek, N95 / nitrile combo to sand and paint the boat.


x_sf_med Thanks, talk about completely missing a cheap alternative. Good catch. I'm actually looking at a product called "Frog Togs" (available at Bass Pro Shops - where HH6 wants to go shopping Sunday to enhance our own preparedness posture!). It's waterproof, inexpensive, disposable, available in a range of colors that includes "Mossy Oak" camoflauge, has an integral hood, and can be sealed with the ubiquitous duct tape to make an acceptable NBC suit. (NTM - I believe the base fabric is Tyvek!) It resembles the last generation (that I know of) SOF emergency NBC exposure suit, the "wad it up and throw it away as soon as you've exacuated the threat area" one. Good call - Peregrino

x SF med
05-19-2006, 14:30
P-
I've said it in other posts - look for Spinnaker repair tape - strong, light, waterproof, not shiny, and pretty cheap too $6/roll - comes in black too.

try layline.com -- it's a sailing supplier

Monsoon65
05-19-2006, 15:57
Just thought of something and I don't know if it's correct, but if you don't have throwaway coveralls, what about an old rainsuit or similiar? It can be hosed off if exposed, and I don't think particles will stick to something that's slick like a vinyl rainjacket/pants.

The Reaper
05-19-2006, 16:11
Just thought of something and I don't know if it's correct, but if you don't have throwaway coveralls, what about an old rainsuit or similiar? It can be hosed off if exposed, and I don't think particles will stick to something that's slick like a vinyl rainjacket/pants.

Radio, Bio, or Chem?

TR

Monsoon65
05-19-2006, 18:24
Radio, Bio, or Chem?

TR

Radio. Fallout particles can be washed off. You just need to do it in a place where you won't track it back inside your house, etc. I don't think it's much use in a Bio or Chem incident.

The Reaper
05-20-2006, 14:32
Radio. Fallout particles can be washed off. You just need to do it in a place where you won't track it back inside your house, etc. I don't think it's much use in a Bio or Chem incident.

Depending upon the permeability of the suit, it could work for some forms of Chem or Bio.

We used to be told that in the event you did not have your chem suit, the rainsuit or poncho was better than nothing.

Most bio weapons have to be aerosolized to distribute, most other vectors are too unreliable. As long as you wear a mask and do not inhale the agent, get it in an open wound, your eyes, ears, nose, or mouth, and washed yourself off with a decontaminant after exposure and before unmasking, you should be okay.

Thus the need for a lot of hot water, bleach, and a slurry pit.

Unles someone wants to talk about air further, and we can revisit it, that brings us to our next topic, First Aid, Medicine, and Escape gear.

The idea here was that if you are trapped, not breathing or and bleeding out, the rest of the stuff on the list is a distant consideration.

Thoughts?

TR

PSM
05-20-2006, 14:52
Escape gear.

With earthquakes in mind, we have a 3' wrecking bar and
2xD cell flashlight next to each sleeping position. We should have roll-up escape ladders for the upstairs bedrooms, but do not (yet). Perhaps a small FAK next to each bed would be a good idea, too.

Pat

MtnGoat
05-20-2006, 17:10
What happens during a disaster weather it a tornado to a Tsunami it all up to you. You have to know where your located at and who your there with - Family, Friend, Coworkers, ETC. You have to be ready for the world to come down on you. Just like get into that new Hotel or Club or restaurant. Do you know how to get out of it when you first get them? Where are the Fire Exits, Delivery doors, how do you get to the back door from the restaurant?

You can break it down by the areas you live in. Like the western USA - so you don't have hurricanes or flood you have wildfires and maybe earthquakes. So what you need compared to me here in NC is different. I like the 3" wrecking bar next to each bed. Great Idea - have to tell me relatives in Hell Fran Area, CA. (9th Dist)

I think some things that I feel that are need in disaster like a hurricane or an earthquakes are mobile communication and electronic (C-E) vehicle platform capable of operating in an urban to rural environment in support of Federal, State and Local Government emergency management incident. Something that is Four X Four and can be dual fueled if not Hybrid fuel system. Something that can support all Bands of CE and provide cellular and has a cross-band repeaters. I know there are some large tractor trailer systems out there, but they are to big. You need some in the HUMMVE or van size. We learned so there being made now.

Also I think an expandable tractor trailer system that is a mobile medical center. Not a hospital in the sense but some that can be set up to provide medical care and move fast once it is needed by the changes in the environment. During a disaster the events can change very fast. you have 4-5 of these 54 Trailers you can have a very mobile medical clinic.

With your family you can think the same way just smaller. TR and other have posted some really good points to think about. We in the military cross training with other skills so we all know how to do them to a point. Cross training is needed with everyone. If you don't know how to start the generator, work the computer reporting program, or even the radio system. Start the radio from a "Cold Start" then you need to cross training. Everyone is a specialties, but you need to know how to do the other guys JOB to a point.

Things that I like are:
- mobile satellite telephone communications
- I got to have XM satellite radio - just wished in work outside of the USA :(
+ real world I would like a broadcast reception with mobile satellite ability and local television reception for all levels
- onboard navigational system information
- wireless Internet access best a satellite
- intra-team communications all bands
+A 8.5 kW AC/DC generator power source for equipment and external ancillaries.
+Pack the family bags so if needed we can go. Wife knows what file draw need to be loaded up and grab the small fire safe.
+ Everyone knows what they are to do, just like in a fire drill. Maybe I'll do one tonight and see if the kids get to the mailbox again.

I think listing what your what type of disasters are with in your Area (AO) and telling us what you do to prepare for them and/or what your local Gov't does. Would better provide ideas on how "you" can be prepared, even our families in the disaster that they face.

.02 VG

Monsoon65
05-20-2006, 19:54
I think listing what your what type of disasters are with in your Area (AO) and telling us what you do to prepare for them and/or what your local Gov't does. Would better provide ideas on how "you" can be prepared, even our families in the disaster that they face.



I'm within a stones throw of Three Mile Island (TMI)! I think even "minor" problems would be "major"! My plan is to head upwind of anything. Problem will be the roads. All will be designated "outbound", but I don't think that will last for too long. How many parents are going to leave their kids in the hands of the schools? Most will try to get them, so it will be a huge parking lot on the highways.

The Reaper
05-20-2006, 21:02
I'm within a stones throw of Three Mile Island (TMI)! I think even "minor" problems would be "major"! My plan is to head upwind of anything. Problem will be the roads. All will be designated "outbound", but I don't think that will last for too long. How many parents are going to leave their kids in the hands of the schools? Most will try to get them, so it will be a huge parking lot on the highways.

I would say that thinking outside the box, you need to get off the roads. Do you have access to a boat? How about four wheelers or dirt bikes? That evac should not require any large amount of luggage, as it should theoretically be short term.

Let's try to keep this on track with first aid/medical and escape (being emergency escape from some sort of confinement).

If you are near TMI, live downwind, and expect some sort of additional problems, on the first aid medical side, I would think about Potassium Iodide pills, suits or slickers, and hoods or masks.

For escape items like the wrecking bars, axes, and shovels could also be helpful, or chainsaws, as would knowing how to use a scissor, hydraulic, or Hi-Lift type auto jack to move debris. Having a few, 2x6s, 4x4s or other shoring material to stabilize debris or structures could be handy. If not a winch, definitely a come-along, some rope or cable, and some chain.

I would ditch the D-Cell lights for 123 powered lights. The run time and shelf life are significantly better and the light is tremendously more powerful with the 123 lights.

How about you paramedics and firemen? What would you want to keep handy for self-extrication or rescue from collapsed structures? A Hurst Tool is probably not practical.

TR

x SF med
05-20-2006, 21:20
since I do a lot of sailing now, I have a lot of gear that is "dual purpose" - when racing you always have to be pepared for an emergency, and the gear has to be portable.

Now to ask a question to answer a question - should I be thinking as a trained 18D, or joe anybody,with minimal if any training? I'll break it into 2 parts for the med gear.
1. Just your average joe - a good basic prepackaged first aid kit should work - anything else is going to overwhelm the user. You don't want anything but basic meds - aspirin, acetominophen, ibuprofen (yes all 3 - they do lsightly different things), oil of cloves, a good triple antibiotic ointment, betadine, possibly a basic broad spectrum oral antibiotic, anti diarrheal, WATER PURIFICATION (betedine, bleach, heat tabs, something...) contaminated water will kill the patient. Blankets, basic splints. That should cover the novice for a medical kit.
2. for the 18Ds - go big or stay home - rebuild your full M5 for the field - to include the stainless items, meds and a splint set - you will be the 1st trained provider - 'nuff said.

A lot of wrong can be done itf the untrained try to practice medicine - I think that's a subject I won't touch - it took 15 months of training and a couple of years of hands on experience under senior medics and docs in hospitals to get really good. for the average joe - join a volunteer ambulance squad, take classes, and keep your skills up.

Escape fear.
1. a good marine band vhf handheld rxtx - at least 5 mhz as a top end with scannable wxband - mine is a rechargeable (wall or car or boat) and was about $150, wt about a lb, at West Marine -it will pull all 9 NOAA stations, and all 99 mb freqs - open and closed - commo is escape gear.
2. a diesel vehicle - mine gets 44mpg - at slow speeds near 50mpg and 700+ miles to the tank - and it will burn #2 heating oil so I can siphon from farms, fuel tanks, semis, and homes (get a mi-t-vac it's great for siponing, and a pela 6000 oil extractor -it's got a 2 gal holding tank)
3. Rope/biners/seats, blocks, pitons, gloves
4. Knives - a good survival (I need to find out how to get on the list for the Yarbrough, all the links are broken), a 'rope wrench' - rigging knife, and a couple of good folders.
5. foul weather gear - breathable
6. packable food
7. water purification / canteens
8. lensatic compass & maps (old school), and a handheld waas/whc gps
9. boots!!! hi-tec magnums are a good all around - and my issued Chips are still in great shape for a heavy duty
10. sleeping bag and poncho liner
11. if you are not in my state a rem 700 chambered 7.62 Nato, zeiss 40x400 passive ir scope, and ammo to your desired weight level
12. again if you are not in my state - handun of choice see ammo note above.
13. chem lights
14. dual purpose short baton / breaker bar
15. piezo electric flashlight and an led tec light ot two, small, lightweight, and bright (non tactical, right)
somebody else take over, this ruck is nearly full - I'm assuming this is a nontactical, true get your ass out of this AO situation - right?

The Reaper
05-20-2006, 21:35
Hey, focus here.:o

Good input, but we will get to wheels and bug out kits later.

What we are asking about now is first aid kits, medical supplies, and escape equipment.

Great medical list, but here is also where the N95 masks and surgical gloves go.

I would also add a rescusitation mask. You may not want to put your lips on everyone you are trying to help. An electronic BP cuff, a thermometer or three, and maybe a stethescope.

Nothing wrong with throwing in the Kerlix and Coban for trauma treatment, maybe an eyepatch or two. Several cravats. Povidone iodine. Neosporin. Eye drops. A topical analgesic. A syringe for irrigating, and some sterile saline. Cold packs. Bug juice. Moleskin and Tincture of Benzoin. A set of EMT shears. A good pair of tweezers. A set of forceps, maybe a hemostat. Some scalpel blades. Some 2x2 and 4x4 sponges. Large safety pins. Surgical tape. Lots of bandaids, some Super Glue, and some butterflies or steri-strips. A tourniquet, if you know how to use one. Same with splints, IV sets, and bags. Only if you know how to use them, or expect to be with someone who does.

For meds, an anti-diarrheal, an anti-emetic, some broad-spectrum antibiotics, cold meds, Benadryl, hydrocortisone, a few serious pain meds, if you have the prescription, aceteminophen, ibuprofen, and aspirin. Antacids. Water purification tabs. Oral rehydration salts. Glucose. The oil of cloves is a good call. Many physicians will hook you up with the basic scripts if you tell them that you are planning some overseas travel and want to take along some vacation savers.

If you are on meds, try to build up a few months stockpile, but watch the expiration dates. I would want at least 90 days supply on hand in the fridge.

Some of this could be in a portable kit as well as a fully stocked home kit. One of the biggest things is knowing where everything is. You do not want to start searching when you need a one-handed tourniquet. Get organized, keep an inventory (with expiration dates) and anything that you use gets replaced ASAP.

Damn, you are right, this IS getting heavy! And don't be trying to pawn your gear off on me to carry.

TR

mugwump
05-21-2006, 09:25
Great medical list, but here is also where the N95 masks and surgical gloves go.
TR

Great thread, I'm trying to keep up!

For a home kit, and with a disease-centric focus: While N95 and surgical gloves are best, there are cheap alternatives. Rubber dish washing gloves, goggles/shooting glasses, and a bandanna are better than nothing. I presented this idea around a table with a bunch of physicians (we were talking about "I waited too long to prepare and now everything is gone" alternatives. They immediately scoffed and attacked the idea -- wraparound glasses and a bandanna won't filer out 0.5 micron viruses (duh). I pointed out that a major infection route -- possibly THE major infection route -- is touching the mouth, nose or eyes with contaminated fingers. The bandanna and glasses prevent these unconscious actions.

Hmmm they said, maybe you have something there. (Score one for the guy with no letters after his name!)

If you have to go out for food/medicine/whatever during a pandemic, place a dishpan with a 6% bleach solution in the garage/back porch before you go. Step into the pan (thin rubber "Wellies" would be a good footwear choice), remove outerwear and then drop gloves, glasses, mask into the disinfectant, then step out of boots. Then wash yourself carefully with soap and water.

Sunlight is a great disinfectant for clothing -- let it sit for "several" days before re-use. (I am investigating if there is research that says how long H5N1 lasts in sunlight -- I have heard less than 2 days on dry surfaces but need confirmation).

Get a couple of extra bags of pool shock to make sure you don't have to skimp on disinfecting.

mugwump
05-21-2006, 09:37
I would say that thinking outside the box, you need to get off the roads.

Follow the utility right-of-way. At least around here, there is a fan of right-of-ways leading away from the reactor in all directions (all those towers marching to the horizon) and they are well maintained. You'll need the tools TR lists -- you will hit locked gates. A good topo map will show the routes. Do a recce for ones that go into the prevailing wind to look for traps (impassable embankments, etc.)

Sorry, back to med kits.

The Reaper
05-21-2006, 09:50
mugwump:

The pool shock was a great suggestiuon, I have since seen other sites with that info.

That solved the problem of the bulk and shelf life of liquid chlorine bleach.

Having had a pool, I was familiar with the product, though it did take a while to find a product locally without a lot of additional chemicals like vinyl conditioner and algecide.

I also think that the liquid chlorine in the multi-gallon jugs from the pool supply store might be available fairly late in an emergency (if it is during pool season) and would work as well, just not as concentrated.

Your pan of chlorine is essentially a slurry pit.

TR

MtnGoat
05-21-2006, 10:09
I'm within a stones throw of Three Mile Island (TMI)! I think even "minor" problems would be "major"! My plan is to head upwind of anything. Problem will be the roads. All will be designated "outbound", but I don't think that will last for too long. How many parents are going to leave their kids in the hands of the schools? Most will try to get them, so it will be a huge parking lot on the highways.
Monsoon - Man o' Man live next to TMI

Age of kids will drive this. Look if TMI is and a China Syndrome then you and they need to act. Yes, no school will do the right thing. They need to get out - as TR said out of the box thinking now.
Me I would see what the school and school districts plan is for TMI in the different levels. They should have a written plan that is public release. Just like here in NC they have for Hurricanes coming through here. See what there plan is for you kids in their schools. Different ages will have a different plan. Take their plan and make it yours.

1) Can you kids leave the school? With you and friend or family member Who is closer? Can the leave on their own, do you want them to? If they can where do they go, can you have a meeting spot? They can move there and meet up with whom ever is to get them. Like you say, the parking lots and school roads will be packed, I just look at when I drop my off or pick them up. Madness!

2) as TR said - off road - you have a 4x4 Vehicle? Well that cougar that you drive can still go off road, it all in how you drive it. Do you drive with a "Survival" pack in your car. So many Americans do even have a roadside kit in there cars. In AK you have to have by law at standard set of equipment. But do people really carry them when the live in Anchorage or Fairbanks, AK. So what do you really have in your car to survival on.

3) Your Movement - during a TMI melt down your not really looking at down power lines or tress. Or are you? DO you need escape items like the wrecking bars, axes, and shovels or Hi-Lift type auto jack to move debris. It maybe need, why because you have DONE a pre-route drive on the off road routes out of the threat area. There may be some trees in the roadway, they were there on your RECON. Having some 2x6s, 4x4s vehicles could work but do you have them now and does your family ride them off road? Having a small bit of shoring material to stabilize debris or structures would be handy; can you find this along the roadway? If not then having some would work out - plan ahead. Does your vehicle have a winch? Then like TR said definitely get a come-along, some 1" rope or cable, and some chain, along with a towel that can be thrown over the rope to chains if your pulling on something.

4) The city or town your in have an Emergency Plan for a melt down, Yes, but do you know what the plan is? Find out, its preobaly on line. Looking at what their EVAC routes plans are and plan you own on the backroads that you know.

5) Medically wise - you have to plan for basic ABCs

lrd
05-21-2006, 11:25
Great thread. We begin the region's annual exercise this week in preparation for the upcoming hurricane season, moving up a COR level each day. I'm reading through the instruction now, checking it against TR's posts.

We are at sea level and have to be able to evacuate housing in 30 minutes, so I would ask that portability be considered in this discussion. We used to keep a hurricane/tsunami kit in the trunk of the car, but I need to be able to carry what I'll need here. That makes water a big issue for me. Also, we have a lot of families with small children. If anyone has specific recommendations for evacuating children, they would be welcome. My kids were in middle-school by the time we went through our first tsunami.

The Reaper
05-21-2006, 12:05
Great thread. We begin the region's annual exercise this week in preparation for the upcoming hurricane season, moving up a COR level each day. I'm reading through the instruction now, checking it against TR's posts.

We are at sea level and have to be able to evacuate housing in 30 minutes, so I would ask that portability be considered in this discussion. We used to keep a hurricane/tsunami kit in the trunk of the car, but I need to be able to carry what I'll need here. That makes water a big issue for me. Also, we have a lot of families with small children. If anyone has specific recommendations for evacuating children, they would be welcome. My kids were in middle-school by the time we went through our first tsunami.


There should be plenty of water up in the mountains. Make sure that you have the ability to purify it. For the most compact method other than the WP tablets, look at the MSR MIOX. Great little device. All you need is salt and batteries.

You will need containers as well, several companies, including Coleman make collapsible 5 gallon water bladders.

Food would be another consideration, MREs or freeze-dried would be a good bet in your circumstances. At least three days worth, more if you have the money and space.

If you are going to stay in the woods, take the usual camping essentials. If you are going to a shelter, focus on comfort items that might be useful there.

A tsunami can be such a short notice event that it is more likely than not that the roads will be jammed. Have the gear in a ruck or at least bags with straps if you have to go to foot. Bikes might be a good idea as well.

HTH. Let me know if you have specific questions.

TR

lrd
05-21-2006, 13:37
There should be plenty of water up in the mountains. Make sure that you have the ability to purify it. For the most compact method other than the WP tablets, look at the MSR MIOX. Great little device. All you need is salt and batteries.

You will need containers as well, several companies, including Coleman make collapsible 5 gallon water bladders.

Food would be another consideration, MREs or freeze-dried would be a good bet in your circumstances. At least three days worth, more if you have the money and space.

If you are going to stay in the woods, take the usual camping essentials. If you are going to a shelter, focus on comfort items that might be useful there.

A tsunami can be such a short notice event that it is more likely than not that the roads will be jammed. Have the gear in a ruck or at least bags with straps if you have to go to foot. Bikes might be a good idea as well.

HTH. Let me know if you have specific questions.

TR
Thanks, TR.

Fortunately, the families here spend a lot of free time up in Waimea Canyon (where we'll evacuate to on-island) 4-wheeling, hunting, fishing, hiking and riding the trails on mountain bikes. Like you said, there is plenty of water but it isn't potable (lots of wild pigs up on the ridges).

I need to make sure my ladies are prepared to drive, since the majority of the guys will be in the air. Any recommendations for moving supplies on mountain trails other than rucks? I was thinking about bags for the mountain bikes that the older kids could ride. We'll be carrying the small children.

The Reaper
05-21-2006, 13:41
Thanks, TR.

Fortunately, the families here spend a lot of free time up in Waimea Canyon (where we'll evacuate to on-island) 4-wheeling, hunting, fishing, hiking and riding the trails on mountain bikes. Like you said, there is plenty of water but it isn't potable (lots of wild pigs up on the ridges).

I need to make sure my ladies are prepared to drive, since the majority of the guys will be in the air. Any recommendations for moving supplies on mountain trails other than rucks? I was thinking about bags for the mountain bikes that the older kids could ride. We'll be carrying the small children.


Llamas or mules.

Failing that, I would say saddlebags, bike panniers, or I have seen a number of rickshaw looking bicycle wheeled carts. During the SE Asian wars, a lot of supplies (several hundred pounds per bike) were moved on very small trails using bicycles with a handlebar extension loaded up and walked on the trail.

If you are already 4-wheeling, why not use that, with a small trailer?

TR

lrd
05-21-2006, 14:04
If you are already 4-wheeling, why not use that, with a small trailer?

TR
There is only one paved road up the canyon. In heavy rains, the dirt roads are slick as snot and flooded. The first stage of evacuation can be done in vehicles, but if we have to move on up it'll be on foot.

The Reaper
05-21-2006, 15:28
There is only one paved road up the canyon. In heavy rains, the dirt roads are slick as snot and flooded. The first stage of evacuation can be done in vehicles, but if we have to move on up it'll be on foot.

Yeah, I have spent some time in the Kahukus and know what you mean.

Tsunami coming, you are heading into the mountains afoot with everybody else, move light and fast.

Worry about everything else later. You can eat the guavas if you have to.

TR

Monsoon65
05-21-2006, 16:23
Thanks for all the great ideas!!

Yes, I do have a 4x4. Getting off road to evac would be the best idea. I'll need to find the city route out to avoid them. I don't think I'd have to go really far, just out of the contamination zone. Maybe 1-2 hours out (75-100 miles?) I have a mountain bike I can use to transport if necessary, or just hump it out on foot. A strong will to live is a great motivator.

I already carry a first aid kit in the car. I have a ruck packed with a few items in case I have to leave in a hurry. I do need to work on water purification, tho. I have shovels/pry bar/etc in the garage I can toss in the truck.

For first aid, I'd think you'd be limited on what you know. An IV set up might be nice, but unless you know how to use it, it's just extra weight. Either pack stuff you can use, or learn how. Looks like I might be visiting our medics for some training.

Antibiotics are necessary, but has anyone thought about vitamins? Might be useful to suppliment food and things the body might be missing. Something like a multi-vitamin?

MtnGoat: You mentioned a Cougar being an "off road vehicle". A friend saw a guy driving the AlCan in a Caddy!! Wonder what shape it was when he arrived?

mugwump
05-21-2006, 19:22
Reading glasses in a hardshell case.

MtnGoat
05-21-2006, 20:35
MtnGoat: You mentioned a Cougar being an "off road vehicle". A friend saw a guy driving the AlCan in a Caddy!! Wonder what shape it was when he arrived?
On Bragg you would see all kinds of vehciles driving the fire breaks. So with that said - you can drive anything down just about any road. You don't need a 4x4 to EVAC you family or self. You just got to know how to drive something right. I've driven a Cougar down some missed up roads doing some "off roading".
Sounds like you have a good plan - just look up the city routes to be safe.

The Reaper
05-21-2006, 20:47
Reading glasses in a hardshell case.

You mean a spare set as back-ups for the primary ones you have on you.:D

That reminds me, if you are looking at an extended period without competent medical care, I would add a med book or two to the kit.

Anyone else have recommendations beyond the SF Med Handbook, "Ditch Medicine" and "Where There Is No Doctor"?

TR

MtnGoat
05-21-2006, 21:21
I know this isn't medical but I would add the FM 21-76 "Survival" or how is it now 3-05.76. Having a good Survival book that covers you AO is always great to have.

Cincinnatus
05-21-2006, 22:08
Anyone else have recommendations beyond the SF Med Handbook, "Ditch Medicine" and "Where There Is No Doctor"?

I think most people would be well served by Tilton's "Wilderness First Responder" (ISBN 0-7627-2801-9)

Actually taking the course, either through NOLS, SOLO, or someone else would be better still. The class is eight or nine days and will run several hundred dollars, but is money well spent.

mugwump
05-21-2006, 23:24
Wilderness Medicine, Beyond First Aid by William Forgey. Great book with thoughtfully worked up prescription and OTC med lists. I actually gave this to my internist to look over a couple of years back -- I was trying to get him to write me scripts for the recommended prescription drugs. He agreed on the condition that I followed the administration guidelines in this book, which he thought were spot on.

Cincinnatus
05-22-2006, 09:35
Thanks, mugwump, that looks interesting. I'd never heard of this book, but given your recommendation and the five star rating from reviwers on amazon I think I'll pick it up.

A thought that occurred to me after I posted the above was that the format of the Tilton book, large paperback (8.5" x 11"?) doesn't lend itself so well to a BOB. I believe the SF Med Handbook is both smaller format and designed to hold up better - waterproof paper, three ring binding, etc. So probabley a better choice overall, though the Tilton book is aimed for those who know little and very well laid out.

mugwump
05-22-2006, 21:20
Burns, gut diseases such as cholera, and the current strain of H5N1 can all cause life-threatening dehydration. If the patient is to survive, you must replace the water and electrolytes that have been lost. The following is a simple, inexpensive solution that you can mix up using ingredients easily found in any grocery store (available this week -- next week, ???). All the ingredients store well, so get them now.

Specific to Flu: Note that administering oral rehydration solution and sufficient Tylenol (don't give aspirin/ibuprofen/other NSAIDs to kids under 12 with the flu -- stock up on Tylenol generic acetaminophen) to keep the body temperature no higher than 101 F are two recommended home care treatments for flu. If available, administer statins (Lipitor, Zocor) to ease the inflammatory response (cytokine storm) caused by H5N1.

Expedient Oral Rehydration Solution (based upon WHO formula, revised 2004)

This formula is based upon the readily available "Morton Lite Salt Mixture" found in blue 11 oz. containers. The container should say "Half the Sodium of Table Salt" and the first two ingredients should be salt and potassium chloride.

Morton Lite Salt 1 tsp.
Baking Soda 1/3 tsp.
Table Sugar 2 tablespoons
Potable Water 1 Liter (= 1 Qt. + 2 tablespoons)

Chill if possible. This tastes quite salty to someone who isn't dehydrated. You can mix it with sugar-free Kool-Aid or Crystal Lite or whatever as long as it is sugar-free. Add the minimum flavoring to make it palatable. Avoid products with sugar or the artificial sweetener Splenda (sucralose) which will change the osmolality of the solution and possible worsen diarrhea. If the patient will drink it plain so much the better.

Have small children start with 1 tsp. every 5 - 10 minutes, which is usually quite well tolerated. The amount can be increased every 30 - 60 minutes (2 tsp, 3 tsp, 2 tablespoons, etc. every 5 - 10 minutes).

Adults can go on the same increasing schedule but start with a tablespoon.

If the patient is moderately to severely dehydrated (skin "tenting" is present - when pinched skin does not return to the original flat shape; compare with your own skin) and unresponsive you can still use an eye dropper to introduce small amounts of solution into the mouth - I'm talking drop-by-drop over time, not pumping whole droppers full repeatedly into the mouth. Over several hours you can administer a significant amount of solution - tedious but potentially life-saving.

Cincinnatus
05-22-2006, 23:44
I recently saw "Disater Medicine" spoken well of on another board, here's the link;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0323032532/sr=8-1/qid=1148299751/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6484260-4448146?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I have not read it, and it may be a bit outside of what we're discussing here (i.e. it seems like a book you'd keep as a reference if you were "bugging in" or might like to have read before bugging out, rather than something you'd include in your BOB), but it looks interesting.

mugwump
05-23-2006, 09:27
Dehydrated water! Kidding. :)

Sorry to jump ahead to water storage, but I think this is a prudent option for many and these things are on sale now for the upcoming holiday weekend. Like the "water purification on the cheap" solution it is inexpensive and minimizes "situation normal" storage requirements. It is not useful in a bolt out of the blue water contamination scenario but it would be useful in a situation where you get advanced warning, e.g. hurricane, pandemic, etc.

Current US government guidelines call for storing a two week supply of food and water - one gallon / person / day. For a family of 4 that is 56 gallons. That is eleven Wally World 5 gal containers or one 55 gal food grade barrel. Traditional supplementary emergency water sources include your hot water heater, toilet reservoir, and bathtubs (turn off the main water inlet to the house if you suspect contamination - treat as contaminated if unsure).

Fifty to sixty gallon barrels are about $70 a pop without shipping, are tremendously heavy when full and take up a lot of room. The small, cheap 5-gal containers from Wally World are also costly in the numbers required and leak with annoying regularity.

An alternative solution is a flexible rigid-sided (not inflatable) child's wading pool with a painter's plastic drop cloth as a cover. If unopened the pools store in a small space (a 6' diameter pool is 6"x6"x16") and they are quite inexpensive (I spent $14 on a six footer on sale at Ace). They can be set up in a garage, basement or other protected area when your particular warning threshold has been reached and they hold a fair amount of water:

Six foot diameter X 1 foot depth = 28 cu. feet = 209 gallons

Eight foot diameter X 2 foot depth = 101 cu. feet = 756 gallons

Pick up additional thin plastic drop sheets for lining you bathtub before filling for storage. You can block the drain this way (mine always leak slightly) and you can increase the fill by up to 25% by blocking the overfill drain.

Plastic/vinyl contamination? Least of my worries if this has to be used, and hopefully it's only short term. If you are really worried use the water for clothes washing/bathing/flushing and save your more palatable sources for drinking.

mugwump

PSM
05-23-2006, 12:49
The empty 5 liter bladders that boxed wine comes in are refillable. (Of course you have to empty them first :D ) Left in the box they are easily stackable; out of the box they can be frozen. Also, in the box, they can be grabbed on the way out the door if you are in a hurry.

Pat

Pete
05-23-2006, 13:17
Read all the way through to Pat's post about drinking the wine:D .

OK, just a thought here. I think I picked this up from the Red Cross or FEMA site after Katrina.

With all the active families with cell phones now days you need a contact plan. Everybody just assumes they'll call all the family in the area. The towers may be down, phones decharged, lost and individuals making their way out of the area to evacuation shelters.

Every family member that runs around town by themselves needs to know the number to a contact person outside the area/state/region. In a disaster call that number and "check in". Little ones should be able to give "Granny Mary Johnson in Bugtussle, MO."

Pete

jasonglh
05-23-2006, 14:13
I went to my local farm supply store (Rural King) today and bought some used plastic 55 gallon drums for $8.99 each. They have industrial grade 55 gal trash bags you can use as liners. Requires a bit more effort but seemed better than shelling out $50 for a food grade drum.

They also have large water tanks in various sizes that were not unreasonably priced. Many people that live in the country buy them to haul water from the city out to their farm. They ranged from 35 gal on up to 3000 gal

JPH
05-23-2006, 22:17
How long will the sealed 5 gallon water containers for office water coolers last. And cost?

mugwump
05-23-2006, 23:53
How long will the sealed 5 gallon water containers for office water coolers last. And cost?

Where's The Reaper? I'll try to fill in...

Good question; I don't know. Find out and report back.

jasonglh
05-24-2006, 00:05
When I ordered the 2.5 gal springwater I was told to keep it in a cool dark place like a closet and the shelf life was indefinate so long as the seal was not damaged.

shadowflyer
05-24-2006, 07:07
A coworker at the Fire Dept I work at sells water like you mentioned. I asked him about the same thing as I am about to purchase several of the 5 gallon containers full of spring water. The 5 gallon containers will be good for about 2-3 years as long as the seal is not broken and they are stored in a cool dry place.

JJ

lrd
05-24-2006, 13:34
I just received this link from work. The "Be Prepared" and "Take Action" sections look like a good place to start. There are checklists, downloads, etc.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/intro.shtml

JPH
05-24-2006, 15:41
I treat my 23 gallon gas tank on my jeep as a 10-12 gallon tank always refilling at the earliest convenient time when it hits the half way point. If something looks un-easy in news I might top off, or if prices dip for a day or two in town I top off. However no mater what happens I know that I have a 4x4 with ½ a tank or more ready to go weather a family member is put in the hospital and I go to be by their side or WWIII puts gas at $5+ a gallon.

mugwump
05-26-2006, 12:25
I hope The Reaper comes back soon...we don't seem to do very well without close supervision. :munchin

x SF med
05-26-2006, 13:03
Another good set of books for backwoods medicine and other survival info are: The Foxfire Books - Ithink ther are about 10 of them.

mugwump
05-26-2006, 20:12
Sequence for donning and removing personal protective equipment (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/pdf/ppe/ppeposter148.pdf)

Protective clothing; adaptations and local expedients (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/vhfmanual/sec4.pdf)

Infection control guidelines for influenza A, disinfection, etc. (http://www.wpro.who.int/NR/rdonlyres/EA6D9DF3-688D-4316-91DF-5553E7B1DBCD/0/InfectionControlAIinhumansWHOInterimGuide)

Disinfection protocol using bleach or hypochlorite (http://www.chp.gov.hk/files/pdf/grp-useofbleach-en-2004052100.pdf)

Protective clothing (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/vhfmanual/anx6.pdf)

Handwashing, more complicated than you thought (http://www.doh.gov.ph/images/handwashing.jpg)

Disinfectant solutions, expedient (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/vhfmanual/anx8.pdf) (this uses 70% HTH which is hard to get, use the formula in the Pandemic Flu thread and then follow the guidelines here for uses)

Emergency disinfection of drinking water (http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/faq/pdfs/fs_emergency-disinfection-drinkingwater.pdf) (if you are using the hypochlorite solution from the Pandemic Flu thread, follow the instructions there -- this still has useful information beyond that in the thread and for use with purchased bleach)

mugwump
05-26-2006, 20:24
25 buck downspout diverter (http://www.gardeners.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-Gardeners-Site/default/Link-Product?SC=XNET8002&sku=33-991)

Smart downspout diverter (http://www.flotrue.com/page/page/485471.htm) - it better be for 65 bucks. It diverts the first several gallons overboard, so you don't get bird crap washing into your rain barrel.

PSM
05-26-2006, 21:03
If you are going to be the only one on the block with lights on and a generator humming away, once the stores are empty, guess where they are headed?

I live in a densely populated area and this is a big concern of mine. Our freezer is stocked, at any given time, with 20 pounds of beef, 5 to 8 pounds of pork, 6 to 8 chickens, 2 turkeys, 2 to 3 packages of corned beef (thanks to St. Paddy's day sales :D ), a duck or two, several game hens, etc. We don't need electricity except for the freezer and perhaps battery chargers.

We have a natural gas quick-connect for the grill. I looked into doing a "3 fuel" conversion for a gasoline generator but that would let my neighbors and would-be looters know that I have electricity and something I want to keep cold. Refrigerated items are less important unless they are medications.

I'm leaning steeply towards an inverter and deep cycle marine batteries and a small, quiet, generator to keep them charged.

Pat

mugwump
05-26-2006, 21:17
... but that would let my neighbors and would-be looters know that I have electricity and something I want to keep cold...

Pat

Don't worry about the noise. If you are cooking beef my wife will smell it even if it's 200 miles away. :D

PSM
05-26-2006, 21:38
Don't worry about the noise. If you are cooking beef my wife will smell it even if it's 200 miles away. :D

Hmmm, didn’t consider that. I may have to open up a restaurant called the "Pandemic Pantry." :D

Pat

JPH
05-26-2006, 22:11
As for the water I did some homework, one 5-gallon container cost 15.50 in Missouri.

On respirators, I got the un-opened sales sample from a 3M dealer of a model 6900 full-face mask. I put the 3M 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge on it. Can’t hurt based on the something is better than nothing plan. However I do not fully understand the capabilities regarding this setup and the threats we are talking about here.

As this is a setup sold for painting in enclosed spaces and other airborne chemical work, I am assuming (yes I know what this dose that why I am asking) that it is ok to don in a chemical spill or chemical factory fire or whatever up wind. Is that correct?

My main question is what level of protection dose this offer when faced with bio/radio… also is there any chemical threats that this would be worthless for?

Here are some links to the 3M page regarding my set up. MSRP is in the $140's, cost is $65 for most dealers, and this can be found on the net, new for about $85 with out much research.

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/au/en005/safety/safety/node_GS8MTP0X4Zgs/root_D58K9TX3VWgv/vroot_LR9P7Z8B2Lge/bgel_5DGLR25VFKbl/gvel_XT7L363373gl/theme_au_safety_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/ca/en001/healthcare/-/node_GSVQQP9VVVgs/root_VJ3G0N3T7Ngv/vroot_3LPG2VJGS7ge/bgel_JM86LZQM26bl/gvel_W2B587L6R3gl/theme_ca_en_healthcare_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

More importantly than my questions regarding this setup and its protection, where should the average Joe, like myself, start researching this and what should I be researching, what concepts should I understand in order to protect myself and respond to these three threats.

thanks,
JPH

jasonglh
05-26-2006, 23:10
Speaking of generators I was thinking about lining the bottom of my freezer with gallon jugs of ice to give me more time between generator runs on the freezer. If we go til deer season I can make 2 does into summer sausage and I wont have to worry about refrigeration. Would take lots of crackers to go with those though.

jatx
05-27-2006, 09:28
Speaking of generators I was thinking about lining the bottom of my freezer with gallon jugs of ice to give me more time between generator runs on the freezer. If we go til deer season I can make 2 does into summer sausage and I wont have to worry about refrigeration. Would take lots of crackers to go with those though.

I like the way you think, but won't the ice in the jugs melt just as fast as the frozen meats on top of them? Maybe a better solution would be to further insulate the deep freeze in some way.

Anyone have a thought on what might work best?

jasonglh
05-27-2006, 12:22
I was thinking a freezer without power is like a big insulated cooler. Usually what is on top will thaw out first. I was thinking the gallon jugs would act like blocks of ice without the mess. You know in the old days a refrigerator was kept cold by adding a large block of ice in that little door. My garage tends to stay on the cool side so long as you dont open the big door so I was thinking easily spoilage items on the bottom and things like summer sausage on top.

Monsoon65
05-27-2006, 16:02
I was thinking a freezer without power is like a big insulated cooler. Usually what is on top will thaw out first. I was thinking the gallon jugs would act like blocks of ice without the mess. You know in the old days a refrigerator was kept cold by adding a large block of ice in that little door. My garage tends to stay on the cool side so long as you dont open the big door so I was thinking easily spoilage items on the bottom and things like summer sausage on top.


Sorry, I've been on vacation for the past five days and catching up.

I heard that the freezers on a normal household fridge will stay cool for three days after power is shut off, as long as you're not opening them.

PSM
05-27-2006, 22:00
Don't worry about the noise. If you are cooking beef my wife will smell it even if it's 200 miles away.

My wife suggested cooking the meat in a pressure cooker and letting the steam out slowly so that the smell is dissipated over a longer period of time. A pressure cooker also saves fuel and can be rigged to distill seawater.

Pat

Monsoon65
05-31-2006, 18:41
I know that some units, when they deployed to the field, would bury their generators to cut down on noise. Maybe something like that could be worked.

Lights can be shielded, or at least use a low watt bulb to mask them.

PSM
05-31-2006, 18:58
I know that some units, when they deployed to the field, would bury their generators to cut down on noise. Maybe something like that could be worked.

Lights can be shielded, or at least use a low watt bulb to mask them.

Won't work here. Our "yard" consists of two 60'x3' dog runs, a 200 sq ft rear deck and a 100 sq ft front garden.

Pat

mugwump
06-02-2006, 09:36
Brother-in-law found this (he's a boater). Smokin' deal on Honda generators -- no sales tax, shipping included.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=102832&posts=27

1) One HONDA eu1000 Generator - $629.99

2) One HONDA eu2000 Generator with FREE 10ft battery charging cable ($16 value) - $860.99

Pete
06-02-2006, 12:11
1) One HONDA eu1000 Generator - $629.99

Honda does make a nice generator but are a little steep in price for the Kw's. A standard 5Kw generator can be had most times on sale at Lowe's and Home Depot for between 750.00 - 890.00. May have gone up a bit since last year when I got mine.

Yes they are bigger and make more noise but they will run everything I need on the ground floor. 5 gallon tank, 3 five gallon gas tanks and a 27 gallon gas tank on the truck. That should do me as we eat our way through the frozen stuff.

Neighbors hearing it? Way past time to make friends. Of the 8 houses in my immediate section of the block we have 4 retired Army, 2 Active Army and 2 "others". One of the "others" families does not eat Bar-B-Que.

Pete

Edit to add - Just checked the Lowe's web site - Troy Built 5,500 Kw generator is listed for $699.00 (That's the one I got last year).

Monsoon65
06-02-2006, 16:51
Home Depot also gives a military discount if you are looking at a generator there. If the price is the same at both places, that makes the difference for me.

jatx
06-03-2006, 09:53
Per this thread, I am looking for a handheld VHF radio to add to my emergency supplies. I know absolutely nothing about radios.

What features should I look for? Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

Thanks very much.

mugwump
06-03-2006, 10:09
Per this thread, I am looking for a handheld VHF radio to add to my emergency supplies. I know absolutely nothing about radios.

What features should I look for? Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

Thanks very much.

:munchin

Sacamuelas
06-03-2006, 11:58
Per this thread, I am looking for a handheld VHF radio to add to my emergency supplies. I know absolutely nothing about radios.

What features should I look for? Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

Thanks very much.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/howtovhf.htm
Here is a very basic review of handheld civilian marine VHF's. You can read this and then wait for the experts in commo gear to chime in on this subject.

I have an easily removable full size unit on my boat so that I can have the full 25watts of power if I need it. It isn't hard to pull a battery or buy an inverter to power it in your house. It is a line of sight system so the antennae really matters too. I have an 8' ant. which gives 8db gain I think. The newer radios have a built-in linkage to civilian GPS units and have an emerency button that transmits personal info along with your current gps coordinated to the authorities that monitor the frequencies.

A good VHF will give you access to emergency officials (coast guard, etc) as well as a marine operator for phone calls ($$$). Of course, weather and other info besides basic commo with friends is available on these systems too.
Course, I will wait and let the gurus speak.

Team Sergeant
06-03-2006, 15:49
Saca, that link doesn't work for me.

"The page cannot be displayed"

Must be "Operater head space and timing", worked fine for me.....:rolleyes:

Razor
06-04-2006, 00:34
Fear not, she of the deciduous derriere! You have more than enough space in your head, and should not seek to add any more, lest you chance even more frequent misfires.

mugwump
06-04-2006, 10:31
I was looking into dental first aid. I really hope I never encounter the situation where I need it performed on me. Anyway, here's what I've found so far...

Common Dental Emergencies (http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030201/511.html)

The World Health Organization has developed a process known as Atraumatic Restorative Treatment (ART). The ART technique involves caries removal and tooth filling with adhesive filing materials using hand instruments only, no drills. It has been specifically designed to be delivered by people with limited experience in dental procedures under primitive field conditions.

Atraumatic Restorative Technique Demonstration (http://216.26.160.105/conf/hrsa04/presentations/Bolin_3.pdf)

ART - WHO website (http://www.whocollab.od.mah.se/expl/artintrod.html)

Instrument set for the WHO ART process (http://www.gcasia.info/content_art_instrument.html)

Sacamuelas
06-04-2006, 21:38
oops... sorry MW. I have been swamped at home trying to fish at least 12 hours a day on the weekends.:D I will get you something posted soon. If not, keep smacking me with the obvious posts. LOL

x SF med
06-05-2006, 09:48
Sac -
you forgot to mention the 5w handheld that icom makes for west marine - will run off a recxhargeable LiOn or AAs - great feature. on sale West sells them for about $140. Mine has a good 30 mi range at 5w, and it will scann all 10 Wx bands.

West is also a great place to get line.

Btw - pm me re boats - are you a sail or motor guy?

jatx
06-05-2006, 09:51
Sac -
you forgot to mention the 5w handheld that icom makes for west marine - will run off a recxhargeable LiOn or AAs - great feature. on sale West sells them for about $140. Mine has a good 30 mi range at 5w, and it will scann all 10 Wx bands.

West is also a great place to get line.

Btw - pm me re boats - are you a sail or motor guy?

What has your experience been like with the Icom units? They look nice, but I read a review where they failed the dunk test, so I've been focusing on the Uniden and Standard Horizon models.

x SF med
06-05-2006, 12:04
I love mine - it's been rained on pretty fiercely, in the bottom of a dinghy with 6" of H2O, dropped, hung off my stern pulpit in the heat and rain and cold and still works like a champ - very well sealed, of course I try to take care of it, but competitive sailing doesn't always allow that. Haven't dropped it into 6' of H2O yet, and hope I never do...

Go for one wit hthe West marine branding - the warranty is better, and has full replacement.

PSM
06-05-2006, 12:07
Rather than a marine band radio I would go with an aviation band transceiver. Try raising Coast Guard Station Wichita sometime. Since VHF/UHF comms are LOS only, “up” gives you better range. Even if you’re on a boat in mid-ocean you will have aircraft flying over monitoring (supposedly) 121.5. There are NAV/COM units (which I have not used) that might prove useful in some instances.

Pat

jatx
06-05-2006, 13:55
I love mine - it's been rained on pretty fiercely, in the bottom of a dinghy with 6" of H2O, dropped, hung off my stern pulpit in the heat and rain and cold and still works like a champ - very well sealed, of course I try to take care of it, but competitive sailing doesn't always allow that. Haven't dropped it into 6' of H2O yet, and hope I never do...

Go for one wit hthe West marine branding - the warranty is better, and has full replacement.

Thanks, I just ordered the M32 with lithium ion battery. The price at West Marine was $150 after rebate. It should make a great addition to the pack that I keep in the back of the truck.

jessipo1
06-06-2006, 22:30
Thanks, Great info! Looks like you put alot of time and effort into this in order to keep us informed. Really appreciate it. :)

JP

UberAlles
06-07-2006, 00:16
Excellent information everyone. I would like to especially thank Mr. Reaper for his first two posts, as they both reinforced and more narrowly defined my plan of attack in designing the best disaster preparation and response for my area.

Given a few days I will likely have the basics, if not the more advanced items worked out, or addressed in some form, to account for the most likely scenario in my area.

Monsoon65
06-08-2006, 20:32
Just a thought about getting anything battery operated: If possible, maybe get them so that all your gear works on the same batteries. I know that some can't, but if your radio, flashlight, etc all work on AAs, you don't have to keep different types.

Our GPS system works on AAs and so do our strobes. That way, if the GPS goes TU, we can use the batts from the strobe, for example.


Important radio frequencies:


121.50: This is the international aeronautical emergency frequency

138.225: This is the prime disaster relief operations channel used by the Federal Emergency Management Agency; it is active during earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, and other catastrophic events.

154.28: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local fire departments; 154.265 and 154.295 also used.

155.160: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local and state agencies during search and rescue operations.

155.475: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local and state police forces.

156.75: This channel is used internationally for broadcasts of maritime weather alerts.

156.80: This is the international maritime distress, calling, and safety channel. All ships must monitor this frequency while at sea. It is also heavily used on rivers, lakes, etc.


I got these from:

http://www.dxing.com/scanfreq.htm

MtnGoat
06-08-2006, 21:45
Just a thought about getting anything battery operated: If possible, maybe get them so that all your gear works on the same batteries. I know that some can't, but if your radio, flashlight, etc all work on AAs, you don't have to keep different types.

Our GPS system works on AAs and so do our strobes. That way, if the GPS goes TU, we can use the batts from the strobe, for example.


Important radio frequencies:


121.50: This is the international aeronautical emergency frequency

138.225: This is the prime disaster relief operations channel used by the Federal Emergency Management Agency; it is active during earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, and other catastrophic events.

154.28: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local fire departments; 154.265 and 154.295 also used.

155.160: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local and state agencies during search and rescue operations.

155.475: Used for inter-department emergency communications by local and state police forces.

156.75: This channel is used internationally for broadcasts of maritime weather alerts.

156.80: This is the international maritime distress, calling, and safety channel. All ships must monitor this frequency while at sea. It is also heavily used on rivers, lakes, etc.


I got these from:

http://www.dxing.com/scanfreq.htm

What no FOX NEWS or SPORTS? :confused:

Sacamuelas
06-12-2006, 20:18
Sac -
Btw - pm me re boats - are you a sail or motor guy?
PM inbound

Pete
06-13-2006, 05:33
..........
Important radio frequencies:......
.............
I got these from:

http://www.dxing.com/scanfreq.htm

I forgot I had my little scanner sitting beside my desk. I only turn it on during bad weather or an emergency.

The Fayetteville area has gone to the 800mz trunked system and you need a programable trunk scanner.

Since I'm not an 18E it took me most of the first weekend to scan the user freq.s and start locking out the trash men, bus system, parks etc and get down to City/County Police, Fire Dept and State Patrol.

For normal listening I lock out the County and State just because of the traffic load. Even with that the city uses a number of channels and to scan all of them you miss a lot of traffic.

jatx
06-25-2006, 20:23
This thread really got me thinking about all the little ways that life can go sideways, and how I can prepare without going overboard. The goal of my preparations is to allow me to respond to accidents or threats confidently and decisively, whether that means defending myself, rendering aid to others in distress, bugging out on foot or in a vehicle for up to four days, or falling back to a safe spot with family members for an extended period of time.

I decided to follow a tiered approach. This means that for each category that TR originally named, I've thought about what needs to be:

1. In my vehicle (using a dedicated pack in the back of a heavy SUV)

2. At my home

3. At our family's rally point in event of a large-scale disaster

Here is what I have done so far:

Breathable air: Purchased 200 N95 masks (3M 9211's w/ respirator). Four in the pack, the rest stored at home.

Escape: Added a 3" wrecking bar and come-along w/ rope and chain to back of truck. I am considering replacing the wrecking bar with a multi-purpose fireman's tool.

Navigation: Nav CDs and a good road atlas for the truck. Ranger Silva and topo maps of three areas where I know I can go on little notice and avoid contact with others. Waterproof map case and RiR pads for notes. (I figure that a little redundancy is justified in this area).

Rehydration: Sealed tub of powdered gatorade in the truck. More at home.

Personal defense: 1911 on my person or in the truck at all times. 4x CMC 10 rd. mags in the pack. Harsey T2 and multitool in the pack. Carbine w/ extra mags, 1000 rds. of rifle ammo and 500 rds. of handgun ammo at home. Other family members have their own defense items well sorted out.

Shelter & Warmth: Waterproof tarp, stakes and tie-downs in the truck. 2 space blankets, a light shell, fleece gloves and cap, polypro top and dry socks in a ziploc bag in the pack. Sleeping bag and tent are kept at home.

Light: Petzl Tikka LED headlamp in the pack for hands-free use. Surefire G2 and assorted chem lights, 10 extra 123A's also in pack. 100 extra 123As at home.

Water: 4L bottled water in truck. Miox purifier, empty hydro bladder and 2 empty Nalgene bottles in pack. 15 gallons of bottled water at home. Wading pool and drop cloths being purchased for family rally point.

Food & Cooking: 4x large Mountain House meals and MSR stove in pack. Looking into a deep freeze and generator for the family retreat.

Sanitation: Etool, hand sanitizer and wet wipes in pack. Pool shock at home for makeshift slurry pit.

Communications: Car charger for cell phone. ICOM M32 VHF radio w/ li ion battery in pack. Car charger for that as well. Orange M18 for signaling help, other uses, in pack.

Fuel: Syphon kit in truck. 4x 5 gallon Specter fuel cans at home give the truck an 800 mile range w/out stopping for gas, if need be. That is sufficient to get me to any of the four spots I have determined to go. Cinch strap to hold them together when full.

Weak points that I am aware of and am working on are first aid and provisions for the family rally point. I have a really basic FAK in the pack that includes items mentioned in other threads, but the process of putting it together has made me sensitive to just how little I know about this area. I'm considering the Wilderness First Responder course that NOLS is offering in September in Chile, since I was planning on being in SA for most of the month anyway.

I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions (lurkers included!). :)

mugwump
06-25-2006, 20:56
Curious about your family rally point. Are we talking something like a vacation cabin or ???

MtnGoat
06-25-2006, 21:23
Curious about your family rally point. Are we talking something like a vacation cabin or ???
mugwump,

I know for us, we use the mail box at our House. Until now. I have never thought about vactions?? That is a really good point. We are taking one next month, its a house so I will be planning the mail box too. KISS, easier for the kids, wife and I. Outside of a house I don't have anything, we camp a lot. With mountians and the beach, etc. Planning for a RP is defiantly needed to be plan for vacations.

jatx
06-25-2006, 21:52
Curious about your family rally point. Are we talking something like a vacation cabin or ???

It's a home in a semi-rural area with good interstate access. We've agreed to meet there and not wander all over tarnation looking for each other. (My family is scattered across three states.)

My personal bug-out spots are areas of national or state forest that I know well and that get little traffic. I've decided on three in advance so that I have options depending on weather and other factors. All three are places I could go for a long, long time without needing to make contact with anyone else.

Pete
06-26-2006, 06:57
OK Guys;

It's that time. PMCS time. The equipment will do no good if it fails to start/work when you need it.

This weekend will be a good time to drag the generator out and check it over. Put a dab of gas in it and crank it up. While it's heating up check your primary power cables making sure you have enough to lead to the windows outside the equipment you want to run. The smaller extension cords? Know where they are stashed. Total up the watts on the equipment you want to run.

Me, I like to shut the gas feed line and run the generator out of gas and then suck the remaining gas out of the tank. Then check the oil level. Remember to open the fuel feed line next time or you will wear your arm out pulling the cord.

While the generator is cooling check all gas containers for servicability. Go over all gas lanterns and stoves. Check and lube all leather/rubber/plastic seals on the pump. Are they multi-fuelers or white gas only? Crank them up similar to the generator.

All equiment running on gas/oil mixes, like chain saws. Do you use the fuel every week, like in your weed wacker, or has it been sitting since last year. In the saw? Bad news, better try and crank that puppy. A tree down and blocking your truck in is not the time to find your chain saw has old gas and will not crank.

When all that is done go over your food/water supply. If you have a large pantry and rotate your supply - good. If you keep an emergency stash check the experation dates. For those of us who have to squint, write the exp. date on top with a black marker in a date you can understand.

Last - battery check. Types needed, amount, on hand and then rotate.

I did this last weekend in prep for the Hurricane season. Are you ready?


Pete

mugwump
06-26-2006, 07:59
OK Guys;

It's that time. PMCS time. The equipment will do no good if it fails to start/work when you need it.

This weekend will be a good time to drag the generator out and check it over. Put a dab of gas in it and crank it up. While it's heating up check your primary power cables making sure you have enough to lead to the windows outside the equipment you want to run. The smaller extension cords? Know where they are stashed. Total up the watts on the equipment you want to run.

Me, I like to shut the gas feed line and run the generator out of gas and then suck the remaining gas out of the tank. Then check the oil level. Remember to open the fuel feed line next time or you will wear your arm out pulling the cord.

While the generator is cooling check all gas containers for servicability. Go over all gas lanterns and stoves. Check and lube all leather/rubber/plastic seals on the pump. Are they multi-fuelers or white gas only? Crank them up similar to the generator.

All equiment running on gas/oil mixes, like chain saws. Do you use the fuel every week, like in your weed wacker, or has it been sitting since last year. In the saw? Bad news, better try and crank that puppy. A tree down and blocking your truck in is not the time to find your chain saw has old gas and will not crank.

When all that is done go over your food/water supply. If you have a large pantry and rotate your supply - good. If you keep an emergency stash check the experation dates. For those of us who have to squint, write the exp. date on top with a black marker in a date you can understand.

Last - battery check. Types needed, amount, on hand and then rotate.

I did this last weekend in prep for the Hurricane season. Are you ready?


Pete

Thanks for this Pete.

Now see if your wife/son/daughter can start it and hook it up if you're not around. That's what I'm working on now, and not just the generator. I've given up on the spousal unit but the son and daughter are trainable.

PMCS? :confused:

jasonglh
06-26-2006, 09:36
Some generators can be upgraded to electric start by adding a ring gear and starter motor with the pull rope being backup. Handy for someone like my 80 year old grandmother who doesnt need to be yanking on a pull rope.

Pete
06-26-2006, 15:12
I like to run the gas out of the system for long term storage. I don't like to be draining gas while it's running and a bit lazy about restarting it after I shut if off. The way I do it has about a teaspoon of gas left over from the tank to the shutoff valve.

No mechanic here, but I've been told that stuff with carburetors stores better with no gas in them. The gas evaporates and deposits a type of varnish. Also old gas makes stuff very hard to start. My weed wackers wack me more than the grass when I try and start them - my weak spot.

Clean equipment and new gas makes stuff easy to start.

BoyScout
06-26-2006, 20:35
When I was by myself, all I needed was a multi-tool and a fire starter and I could hike to the lake after moving away from there. Over the years my dad and I have been coming up with useful tid-bits of primative skills to one-up each other. Right now I have two kits for my family, we still use the diaper bag for my girl for "accidents" and one for me and my wife. Here we can and have gotten everthing from massive tornadoes :eek:, large scale fires, to terrorist attacks in central Oklahoma. There is even a fualtline ruuning through the state. One thing have not noticed is the psycological effects of children. May be that's another thread it is a concern of mine.

Monsoon65
07-01-2006, 18:12
I like to run the gas out of the system for long term storage. I don't like to be draining gas while it's running and a bit lazy about restarting it after I shut if off. The way I do it has about a teaspoon of gas left over from the tank to the shutoff valve.

No mechanic here, but I've been told that stuff with carburetors stores better with no gas in them. The gas evaporates and deposits a type of varnish. Also old gas makes stuff very hard to start. My weed wackers wack me more than the grass when I try and start them - my weak spot.

Clean equipment and new gas makes stuff easy to start.

What about using that additive you put in gas for when you're storing your equipment. One of the names it goes by is "Stable". I've used that in my gas storage container and I haven't had any problems with my mower yet.

The Reaper
07-01-2006, 18:40
Sta-Bil is good stuff for engines, and stored fuel, but even it has an expiration date.

Untreated gas has a shelf stability under normal conditions of about three months before breakdown begins occurring. Storage in hot climates accelerates the process.

Sta-Bil treated gas will last up to a year or so, though I would not use it then in an expensive or high compression engine. Carbureted, inexpensive, or low compression devices like mowers or weedeaters would be the best use for it.

Lower distillates like diesel tend to last longer than gas before breaking down.

Theoretically, 100% ethanol sealed tightly should last almost indefinitely.

The closest thing to a stable long-term internal combustion fuel source would be a liquified gas like LP or natural gas. Two 1000 gallon tanks buried in the ground should last small users a long time.

HTH.

TR

JGarcia
07-02-2006, 17:27
I know there are lotsa people that beleive, when and if a nuclear exchange happens that its game over. And perhaps thats true for those of you in large urban areas. But most of the country is not a large urban area.

TR touched on Potassium Iodide earlier, many of you know why its important to ingest this. But perhaps others don't. The sites I am about to link are selling stuff, but primarily they offer volumes of information for your immediate study. This link is to an online pamphlet titled: "You will survive doomsday" : http://www.radmeters4u.com/survival/books/doomsday/index.htm


In my opinion this is a good source of quite a bit of free info:
http://www.ki4u.com/guide.pdf

I am not pushing their products, its just that they have more information than they do products.

Lastly: http://www.webpal.org/webpal/d_resources/list.htm and http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/nbc.htm

The Reaper
07-04-2006, 11:22
Good info NG_M4_Shooter. I tend to think a nuke attack as a pretty low probability right now, but the severity of the consequences are enormous.

We seem to have drifted quite a bit from survival med gear, but I am satisfied that it at least made people think and perhaps evaluate their personal preparedness for a medical emergency. In summary, IMHO, med knowledge and training is a better asset than med gear without the knowleedge or training.

On to defense planning, which should evoke a spirited discussion from this crowd.

Some members of this board have more firearms than fingers. Others have a few, some may have none.

The intent here is to discuss firearms for personal/home defense in a lawless situation, and possibly how to make your home more defensable.

For a person who has no firearms, and possibly little training, what would be a good first purchase, particularly with an eye toward keeping the budget low and defensive capability high?

We can expand from the first firearm through those who will want to amass a battery.

Recommendations?

TR

JGarcia
07-04-2006, 11:29
My guess is a twelve gauge shotgun? Pump action, short (not illegal) barrel. The types of ammunition are numerous and available, difficult to miss at short range. Doubles as a good pugil stick. Looks like a 'hunting' weapon. Like a tight shot group from a submachine gun.

Buying guns was always a fight with the missus, until I figured out how to make it a tax write off, "Hunny I either spend that $2K or pay it to uncle sam." TR, glad you approved of the info I posted earlier.

Doc
07-04-2006, 11:42
I like a 12 gauge pump too. Put number 4 shot in one and you've got a heck of a good home defense gun if you are taking on a few people or less like in a home break-in type situation.

If you have chaos and riotting going on, I'll go with my M-4 (semi-auto) as my primary and my .40 cal pistol as my secondary weapon.

Let it rip potato chip.

Doc
07-04-2006, 11:51
Some members of this board have more firearms than fingers.

TR

LMAO!

How about fingers and toes TR? After all, this is a SF Board. :D

You know it's bad when I had to stop myself today from going down and getting yet another gun. LOL :eek:

HOUSEHOLD6 said I looked depressed after not going. :(

Good thread TR.

The Reaper
07-04-2006, 12:11
LMAO!

How about fingers and toes TR? After all, this is a SF Board. :D

You know it's bad when I had to stop myself today from going down and getting yet another gun. LOL :eek:

HOUSEHOLD6 said I looked depressed after not going. :(

Good thread TR.

I hear you, Doc.

I recently got a couple more, but the collection makes it harder to justify each new purchase.

I hear that some people outgrow their gun safes, and have to get additional ones to hold the family heirlooms, or overflow guns.:D

The shotgun is a good choice, due to its intimidating appearance, severe damage, and slightly lesser aiming problems due to shot spread. Shorter versions are better for home, boat, or car use, and are more secure from being taken away. Pellets penetrate less than bullets, an important consideration if you have neighbors nearby or other occupants in your house. Damage from a shotgun blast, especially with buckshot, is as noted, akin to an SMG burst. It also looks better in court after a shooting, than a tricked out M-4. I know that were I to approach a home and hear the slide racking, unless I had serious business there, I would be moving out smartly.

Downside is recoil, heavy ammo, and slow reloading.

Pump design is among the fastest, provides for quick follow-up shots, and is relatively economical. There are people who can empty a pump gun accurately before the first hull hits the ground. A Remington 870 Express, with the short 18" or 20" barrel, can be had from the local gun store or Wally-Mart for well less than $300. Used 870s can frequently be found at local gun stores as police trade-ins for similar prices. Add a mag extension and you up the ante from five rounds to seven to ten (depending on barrel length).

The 12 gauge is good for us, but I believe that those who are smaller or recoil sensitive might be better off with a 20 gauge. We can also, as you noted, use lighter loads to minimize recoil. I would not go below 20 gauge as the loads are too light. A .410 is nearly useless for home defense, a pistol would probably be more effective.

Hard to beat 00 Buckshot or slugs, if you want to take the target down hard and do it out beyond 10 yards. Lesser pellets may have a fuller pattern, but bleed off velocity rapidly and may not have the penetration to reach vitals beyond a few yards. At indoor household ranges, all 12 gauge rounds would be lethal with a solid hit.

Good choice. Anyone else have an opinion for an initial purpose?

TR

7624U
07-04-2006, 15:53
For a Pure survival Handgun I would Vote 4''in to 5''in dbl action Wheel gun in .357 mag

pro's: can use .357 or .38 ammo
simple to use even under stress even for untrained people.
powerful enuff to be used as a secondary hunting gun on animals
up to deer size.
wont break or jam. and you cant lose the magazine for it.
accurate you can mount scopes on wheel guns.


con's slow to reload unless you practice alot.
large muzzle blast
higher muzzle rise unless ported but if ported you get more muzzle
blast.
heavy and bulky not great for concealment but if its survival
who cares about it being hidden.



rifles: I would go with the M1A1 with 18'inch barrel


shotgun would be sawed off and inside my trasportation as a last ditch gun.

If i can only have 1 it would be the rifle.


another thing i would have in my kit i havent seen posted yet is fishing line and hooks
it would piss me off without end if i was hungry and can see fish swimming around in the lake or river and dident have a line and hook to put a worm on.
making a net out of 550 cord aint my idea of a good fishing practice.

JGarcia
07-04-2006, 16:01
The intent here is to discuss firearms for personal/home defense in a lawless situation, and possibly how to make your home more defensable.

Lawless situation is broad Sir. Its difficult for me to consider the capabilities or likely courses of action of an undetermined threat. The likelyhood of a large lawless situation in my town is very small. But home invasion has increased by 200% within our community in the past year though. I have to consider what the lawless mind would want to enter my house for.

My house is within 1 mile of an interstate, on a large road, there are several houses nearby. Three entrance points. Single story wood frame, lath and plaster home, with aluminum siding, an open floor plan, with one main choke point. A significant amount of high end home electronics, and furnishings. A very stout front door and frame, good exterior lighting (landscape lighting and motion lights), good locks.

My wife is no joke, while I was in Iraq she once upon a time had her purse snatched, she promptly ran the f*****r down and kicked his ass, at the time she was pregnant with our first child. I have superior children due to her genetics. She has an option of pepper spray, 9mm or .45, or 12 ga. I think she'd probably grab a flashlight, if she heard an obvious strange noise. I suppose we could write and conduct a 'battle drill' for home invasion, sort of like a fire drill.

As far as creating a more defensible space, some things you could do to your home on the outside, involve plants - roses and pyracanthus, they can discourage people from wanting to get a peak inside your windows, obviously we could consider barrier material built into the landscape to provide COVER from direct fire projectiles, some barrier options include raised planter beds, in the yards around the house - like decorative parapets, which can also serve to make approaches to entrance points into channels or 'fatal funnels' if you will.

You would want to make sure your floors or at least the beds are at a lower level than your parapets outside the house. If someone goes driving by, firing into your house, you wouldn't want a bullet zipping through you while you lie in bed. Cinder block, isn't very good cover, unless its doubled up and filled with sand or cement. 115gr FMJ 9mm will go right through it. If you use landscaping to create fatal funnels outside, you can also use low voltage landscape lighting to silhouette persons travelling the funnels. You can alter the walkways to make them from noisy gravel, or cinders, instead of paved cement, its difficult to cross that stuff without making a sound. Certainly a good family dog discourages baddies too.

A large lawless situation, in my area would have to result in utter chaos in the San Francisco/Sacramento urban area - with a population approaching the the size of a small country, if something were to happen there which would cause the population to flee, they would either go east to Reno, but in the winter this is very difficult at times, or they could flee south to the Valley, or north to Redding - where we're at. There are a limited number of vacant houses, apartments, etc. A sudden 1% shift in population (1% of theirs) would be a very bad thing here. IF the immigrants remained civil, there would be long lines at the 15 or so odd grocery stores, and the Fairgrounds, Schools, and Campuses would be full, traffic would be at a stand still, Police and Fire services would be augmented from the evacuated areas, people would be under a great deal of stress trying to find loved ones, and comfortable shelter, I don't think food would be a problem (due to a huge walmart distribution center) , but water, trash and sewage would be of immediate concern.

I am fortunate to have a relatives with larger more rural properties. I suppose I would sell the house to anyone with the money immediately and move the family to my folks. Otherwise we'd be too close to traffic, and the chaos of town. A family contact plan might be useful too.

I think its a good idea to map out secondary routes around town in order to avoid the roads which will likely be clogged with traffic. Consider also, how much time its going to take you to get from point a to point b under different traffic conditions.

How's that?

A long term lawless situation, months or more, you would have to consider defendable terrain and all that goes with it. Put on your platoon leader hat and plan your defense.

7624U I think wheel guns are very reliable. But when you're not a Pro or heck even when you are and you're scared, people miss. Plenty of cops and others have been in shoot outs and missed at very short range. Hard to miss with 12ga. bird. Think of the most untrained person in your house having to operate that weapon.

Doc
07-04-2006, 16:36
For a Pure survival Handgun I would Vote 4''in to 5''in dbl action Wheel gun in .357 mag

Very nice choice 7624U. I agree with your reasons.

My wife uses a .38/.357 magnum wheel gun and she is very good at shooting it.

I bought it for her for the same reasons you pointed out.

7624U
07-04-2006, 16:52
7624U[/B] I think wheel guns are very reliable. But when you're not a Pro or heck even when you are and you're scared, people miss. Plenty of cops and others have been in shoot outs and missed at very short range. Hard to miss with 12ga. bird. Think of the most untrained person in your house having to operate that weapon.

I am fortunate i dont have untrained people in my house it's just myself...
as for missing you will miss at close range with a 12ga if you dont aim..
cops miss lots of times even with 15rd magazines cause they dident aim.
heck ive had guys miss the lock on a door 2 times with a 12ga and that was only 2'' inches away.
im not arguing that the 12ga aint a great gun for defence it is...
but pellets wont hit the target no matter how much you wish they do with your eyes closed.. you have to aim center mass or you will miss inside a house the shot does not spread into a large area inside 5 meters its still very compact go test it.. ive messed with loading 12ga rounds with dimes also. they are totaly unpredictable. but they do have a larger spread then normal shot does.

As far as the wheel gun the only reason i talked about it is because of its durablility and it will fire every time if the ammo is good.. and if it's not you dont have to take a extra action of clearing that bad round out of the chammber before you shoot again you just pull the trigger and hope that next round is going to fire. more then 2 bad guys in the fight the wheel gun wouldent be the best your right, Thats where The Rifle is KING you can hold off gangs with a good semiauto rifle.

mugwump
07-04-2006, 22:20
OK, I'll pipe in on the "initial purchase/first firearm" part because I just carried out this exercise with my never-even-shot-a-BB-gun brother. I actually tried to talk him out of a firearm until he'd taken care of water, food and basic meds but he didn't bite. Weird how people react, he's a total hoplophobe.

I'll have to describe the selection criteria. First, his decision (actually my sis-in-law's decision) to get a firearm was initiated by Katrina and a realization that a breakdown in civil order is possible. The firearm will be locked away, unloaded, and there will be no chance of it being employed for self-defense in a break-in; this is strictly an anti-zombie piece. Add in "cheap to acquire and shoot" because that was a major factor in his decision.

He shot a selected sample from my finger and toes collection: Remington 870, M1 Carbine, SKS, and a 16" Bushmaster flattop w/ EoTech. My thinking, which turned out to be correct, was that he would be recoil-shy, hence no FN-FAL or M1A.

Even though I always thought it was something you did once and then learned your lesson, he kept short-stroking the 870 -- a no go. Moving on, his favorite was the AR w/ the EoTech, because he could hit something with it. Its cost knocked it out of the running. His next favorite was the M1 carbine, which I had him shoot as an example of the "camp carbine" class. I think for his purposes that might have been the best choice - a pistol-caliber Marlin or Kel-tec. What he ended up with was the SKS, primarily because he's cheap and I offered to give it to him.

All in all I think the SKS is not a bad choice for a one-gun house. Cheap, rugged, moderate recoil, relatively inexpensive ammo, and hopefully it will keep running when dirty and dry (I'm certain that the cleaning demo I gave was the last time that rifle will ever see a patch). Surprisingly, stripper clips weren't a stumbling block.

Bonus: If he does forget how to load it, it makes a decent club and it has an integral bayonet.

PSM
07-04-2006, 22:36
I just carried out this exercise with my never-even-shot-a-BB-gun brother. [H]e's a total hoplophobe.

You're outing your own brother! Shame on you. :D

Pat

7624U
07-05-2006, 06:09
OK,



He shot a selected sample from my finger and toes collection: Remington 870, M1 Carbine, SKS, and a 16" Bushmaster flattop w/ EoTech. My thinking, which turned out to be correct, was that he would be recoil-shy, hence no FN-FAL or M1A.

Even though I always thought it was something you did once and then learned your lesson, he kept short-stroking the 870 -- a no go.

All in all I think the SKS is not a bad choice for a one-gun house. Cheap, rugged, moderate recoil, relatively inexpensive ammo, and hopefully it will keep running when dirty and dry (I'm certain that the cleaning demo I gave was the last time that rifle will ever see a patch). Surprisingly, stripper clips weren't a stumbling block.

Bonus: If he does forget how to load it, it makes a decent club and it has an integral bayonet.




Good gun and you can convert it to a 30 rd magazine later on instead of 10rds
and can still load it with striper clips, bayonet is always plus also if you can take it off the rifle there is a extra knife for your kit that wont get lost.

mugwump
07-05-2006, 08:34
You're outing your own brother! Shame on you. :D

Pat

That's nothing, it's worse than that: he's a Democrat!

The Reaper
07-05-2006, 08:56
Easy step up from the SKS to an AK, and not that much more money.

Intermediate cartridge, adequate penetration and power, inexpensive with cheap accessories and ammo, relatively lightweight and portable, easy to control. Great self-defense weapon if the zombies attack.

Downside-excessive penetration in urban settings, slower reloading than a mag loaded gun, but much faster than a shotgun, not a real accuracy piece.

A good choice, but I would still favor obtaining the shotgun first. Of course, any time you can get a hoplophobe shooting, whatever they will take and use is better than the finest Sturmgewehr ever made and locked away forever. Besides, for those who have bought into the MSM version of easy access to guns, I always like to introduce them to the mountain of paperwork required to obtain a $99 rifle.

TR

mugwump
07-05-2006, 10:35
Intermediate cartridge, adequate penetration and power, inexpensive with cheap accessories and ammo, relatively lightweight and portable, easy to control. Great self-defense weapon if the zombies attack.

...and if my 17 year-old daughter and two of her girlfriends couldn't take him out -- using only tactical bricks -- it would be off to bed without supper.

frostfire
07-06-2006, 14:31
On to defense planning, which should evoke a spirited discussion from this crowd.

Some members of this board have more firearms than fingers. Others have a few, some may have none.

The intent here is to discuss firearms for personal/home defense in a lawless situation, and possibly how to make your home more defensable.

if I may stretch this topic, how about in places where the 2nd amendment is not too popular. Since I'd assume one does not want to intentionally turn his/her living room to a warzone, what can provide the same deterrent effect as a racked shotgun?
Sound of a pair of rott scratching and growling behind the door? This will require the dogs be properly trained. How about a poster that says: this house is under divine protection of Chuck Norris?

Pete
07-06-2006, 15:09
.....what can provide the same deterrent effect as a racked shotgun? Sound of a pair of rott scratching and growling behind the door?..... How about a poster that says: this house is under divine protection of Chuck Norris?

No guns or dogs? Is your plan to defend or to escape?

You need to step out to the street and look at your home, both in the daytime and at night.

Single family home, condo unit, first floor or second floor? Urban, Suburban or Rural? Close to an area of the city where large crowds could gather and riot? Neighbors that would help or are you on your own?

Dark areas, shadows around your house? Low large windows or high small ones?

One easy fix for the front door is to have a solid metal or wood door (with a good peep hole) and replace all the hing/lock plate srews with longer screws that go into the 2x4s that surround the door frame. Then use a door guard bar with a non-skid pad that slips under the door knob and goes down to the floor. A setup like that is hard to kick through.

Sliding patio doors - look nice and let the sun in but they don't hold up well to a grill being thrown through them.

Bad guys like to come into a house quick through a doorway or quiet crawling through a window. Make it hard for them to get through a window quickly and you only have to worry about the first guy coming in. You can take your baseball bat and have some batting pratice with his head. Drop him in the window and you make it just that much harder for the next one.

Blades and bats are a bit harder than firearms. If thats all you've got you can't be saying "One more step and I'll hit you." as you're backing up. They will get in and then their friends. Then they will overpower you.

Somebody sticks their head in you nail them just as hard and as fast as you can. Stop the first one at the door/window and the rest may back up.

"Man, there is one crazy ninja chick living in that house."

Monsoon65
07-06-2006, 17:08
As Pete said, get a baseball bat. Even if you don't play ball, it's easy to say, "Hey, I was at home, watching TV, when Joe Schmoe here came in through the window and I cracked him in the head with the bat."

And the aluminum ones make a real nice "ting" sound when you hit 'em just right! And if someone is behind that guy, they will have second thoughts about entering your home.

The Reaper
07-06-2006, 19:17
if I may stretch this topic, how about in places where the 2nd amendment is not too popular. Since I'd assume one does not want to intentionally turn his/her living room to a warzone, what can provide the same deterrent effect as a racked shotgun?
Sound of a pair of rott scratching and growling behind the door? This will require the dogs be properly trained. How about a poster that says: this house is under divine protection of Chuck Norris?

This is an area I was waiting for someone to breach.

There is more to defense than buying a gun and some ammo. OTOH, there are very few places in this country where you cannot have a firearm in your residence. NYC and DC are the only two I am familiar with. Get the pump gun and go shoot some skeet or sporting clays. Now you have a reason to own a gun.

What is the threat? What are you preparing to defend yourself against? Be realistic. As mentioned, look at your residence (or wherever you plan to go) from a criminal's view. Eliminate blind spots, establish a perimeter, get some early warning, and harden your position as necessary. You don't necessarily need an alarm, in most cases, you just need the sign. Especially if the neighbors don't have one. Note: Do not steal the neighbors' alarm sign. They may have cameras, too. Pete is on target with his assessment. BTW, the cops will usually help you do this analysis through the crime prevention office.

I have friends ask me about buying a 1000 yard sniper rifle. I tell them to get their laser rangefinder, step outside their house and let me know how far they can see, much less shoot. Okay, maybe they can see a water tower 1000 yards in a specific direction. Why are they shooting someone at that range? Is someone at that range a threat? What do they have up there, a mortar? An M-2 HMG? Get real, this isn't Stalingrad. Try to keep all projectiles and impacts on your property.

What do you do when you are confronted by someone, but they are a Non-Lethal Threat (NLT)? Will you shoot someone for stealing from your garden? What if it is a hungry kid? Do what the cops do and have a range of force options. Get some OC spray and a baton (or an ASP, or the aforementioned bat). Bear in mind that if you are out of your home, it looks much better if you have a glove and ball in the same general area as the bat.;)

Are you really to kill another human being to protect yourself and your property? Think long and hard on this. If the answer is no, do us all a favor and do not get the gun. You will probably lose it.

BTW, dogs are great, but it is increasingly difficult to get liability insurance if you own a larger breed like a Rottie. Smaller (not tiny) ones can be nearly as effective. I see the dog as a deterrent when no one is home, a guard when the family is home without me, and as a warning device when I am. Just let me know they are outside, I'll take it from there.

I would start with the non-lethal, get some training, then get a shotgun, buy a pistol, and consider getting a rifle, if you have the range and inclination to get it. In an urban apartment, probably not a good idea. Many ranges rent firearms to shooters. Better to find out that the Dirty Harry hogleg is too much for you before you plunk down $600 and later find out how little trade they will give you back for it. Got kids? Teach them about guns (Eddie Eagle), take them shooting, and keep the guns and ammo not under your immediate control locked up.

Good discussion, keep it up.

TR

7624U
07-06-2006, 20:34
if I may stretch this topic, how about in places where the 2nd amendment is not too popular. Since I'd assume one does not want to intentionally turn his/her living room to a warzone, what can provide the same deterrent effect as a racked shotgun?
Sound of a pair of rott scratching and growling behind the door? This will require the dogs be properly trained. How about a poster that says: this house is under divine protection of Chuck Norris?



Super soaker with flamable fluid in it makes a handy flamethrower. http://www.guzer.com/videos/water_gun_flame.php

One of my other favorites is hammer a few nails in a board and sharpen them with a file.
place board under your window outside in slight depression and cover with leaves...:D anyone steps on that pokeing around your house wont be in any hurry to come back.

Gypsy
07-06-2006, 20:37
One of my other favorites is hammer a few nails in a board and sharpen them with a file.
place board under your window outside in slight depression and cover with leaves...:D

Outstanding idea!

x SF med
07-06-2006, 20:39
To follow up on TRs post - ammo plays a big part in carry too - get low carry / low punch stuff - possibly Glassers or subsonic rounds - you don't need to kill your neighbors by mistake.

Gypsy
07-06-2006, 20:43
Then use a door guard bar with a non-skid pad that slips under the door knob and goes down to the floor. A setup like that is hard to kick through.



I have one of these, my grandmother had them (she had two doors in her apartment) and I can't sleep unless it's secured to my door. Even though I'm on the second floor and live in a "nice" neighborhood I don't leave my windows (they open horizontal vice vertical) open when I go to bed. A shame really, I love the fresh night air on a crisp evening...but better safe than sorry.

You can get the door bar at Target for about $20.00

7624U
07-06-2006, 21:14
I have one of these, my grandmother had them (she had two doors in her apartment) and I can't sleep unless it's secured to my door. Even though I'm on the second floor and live in a "nice" neighborhood I don't leave my windows (they open horizontal vice vertical) open when I go to bed. A shame really, I love the fresh night air on a crisp evening...but better safe than sorry.



Option for front door security just buy a cheap electric fence power box from a livestock shop and run a wire to your door knob then just plug it in at night if you dont have a solid metal door that will ground out.

BoyScout
07-06-2006, 21:46
Before buying ASP battons or nightsticks, check with local LEOs first. ASPs are concidered offensive weapons in my AO. Some decorative weapons could serve as self defense weapons as well (if you know how to use them.) I have a decorative Blackfoot Tomahawk (yes it's a repop) that could serve for both. But the downside is that there is a stigma that goes with using these kind of weapons.
Same should go with ammo, I have heard that some states ban hollow point and frangible ammuntion. I could be and hope I am wrong. Having an older military gun like the SKS or a M1 Carbine might not bring as much unwanted attention as a Kalshnikov or tricked out AR or FAL. Same would go with something like the Wenchester 1300 Defender or Remington 870 HD with wooden stocks verses a Mossberg 590A1 that has been customised. One might look at getting lever action rifles that can double as deer guns as well as home defense. People will tend to look at it as a cowboy gun and not attatch the same stigma they might with the AK-47.
Also don't just look at the law books. Asks LEOs and if you can ADAs. In Oklahoma is legal to carry a gun in your vehical as long as it has the chamber empty and exposed and it is pointed away from the driver. At the very end of this perticular law it does say that the magazine could be loaded as long as the chamber is exposed and empty but I have asked both cops and ADAs and they will nail you if the magazine is loaded.

frostfire
07-06-2006, 22:03
Blades and bats are a bit harder than firearms. If thats all you've got you can't be saying "One more step and I'll hit you." as you're backing up. They will get in and then their friends. Then they will overpower you.

Somebody sticks their head in you nail them just as hard and as fast as you can. Stop the first one at the door/window and the rest may back up.I am thinking how knowledge of the criminal (or mob) mind can be a great asset. I hope LE or QP who've been in a chaotic riot/jungle law scene can elaborate on this one.

the reason I brought up the topic is I had lived through a city-wide riot. No, I was not rambo. The neighborhood simply came together and sent a message to the passing mob that there's hell to pay if they made the move. It's like saying "with your number you'll eventually overpower us, but some of you are going with us to the other side. Now, who's willing to pay that price." One individual from the mob actually sneaked in to one of the house and got caught. Many wanted to teach him a lesson, but they released him almost immediately. The man was all shaky and fell to his knees when he was told he's free to go.

IMHO, the mob mentality is courage in numbers. These are your average opportunist-packed mob, not trained guerilla, or committed jihadis. If the individual is faced with the immediate consequence, he/she most likely back up. However, if they are provoked aka. one of them got hurt, I fear that would ignite the mob to keep going instead of moving to easier and less costly prey.

Hence, the banners I saw in Metairie that say "you loot, I shoot," could that be a good deterrent as well to force the mob or individual thief to move on to easier prey?



Super soaker with flamable fluid in it makes a handy flamethrower. http://www.guzer.com/videos/water_gun_flame.php
One of my other favorites is hammer a few nails in a board and sharpen them with a file.
place board under your window outside in slight depression and cover with leaves...:D anyone steps on that pokeing around your house wont be in any hurry to come back. The realm of improvised weapons remind me of a kid who use hair bleach and nail polish for other purposes. These are great ideas until the law, the neighbor cihuahua, the do-gooders got all entangled with it.



This is an area I was waiting for someone to breach.

Bear in mind that if you are out of your home, it looks much better if you have a glove and ball in the same general area as the bat. Reaper Sir, thanks for the approval . I'd have gone to BLADE and see you in person had I known you're going this year.

I used to have steak-knife looking blade with me whenever I go out, along with fork, knife, and lunchbox with steak.

12B4S
07-06-2006, 22:41
To add something to what Pete mentioned, concerning using longer screws ( at least 3" ) in the hinges and strike plates.

Most residential doors in houses, apartments, ect, open into the dwelling. In FL and perhaps in other parts of the Country, they open out. I only know about FL. I have a brother that lives in FT Myers. I noticed his front doors open out and asked about it. It had something to do with hurricanes and building codes. The point is. When doors open out, the barrel of the hinges are exposed to the outside. Leaving the hinge pin exposed as well. All anybody has to do is tap the pins out and walk in.

If the builder or architect are any good, they will specify NRP (Non Removable Pin) hinges. Which is just a set screw, screwed into the center knuckle of the hinge. Inaccessible When the door is closed. Preventing the removal of the hinge pin. Most the houses I saw down there, including my brothers', did not have NRP hinges. I replaced his.

For those in FL and perhaps the other hurricane prone areas, take a look at your exterior door hinges if they open out.

7624U
07-06-2006, 22:59
IMHO, the mob mentality is courage in numbers. These are your average opportunist-packed mob, not trained guerilla, or committed jihadis. If the individual is faced with the immediate consequence, he/she most likely back up. However, if they are provoked aka. one of them got hurt, I fear that would ignite the mob to keep going instead of moving to easier and less costly prey.

Hence, the banners I saw in Metairie that say "you loot, I shoot," could that be a good deterrent as well to force the mob or individual thief to move on to easier prey?


doubt it not unless your out on your lawn with a visable firearm.
if its a mob they will take chances. untill a few go down and they figure out this one aint worth dieing over.... a sign like that might stop a single or pair of thief's.

Could be worth dressing up and looking old and weak in a wheel chair or something maybe they will move on just on the notion you dont have anything. or are suffering enuff as it is, and will soon be dead in this time of Crisis, People tend to leave wheel chair bound folk's alone its just human nature.
But if they dont you have the element of surprize on your side.. few guns and knifes under your robe for instance and you can stand up anytime you want just the surprize attack from someone they thought was a easy target will make most flee till they gather thier sences then its time for you to displace and move case they do come back.

Pete
07-07-2006, 07:43
I am thinking how knowledge of the criminal (or mob) mind can be a great asset. I hope LE or QP who've been in a chaotic riot/jungle law scene can elaborate on this one.........


One of the experts on group dynamics can jump in with more detailed information but I'll throw in a few thoughts.

A mob or riot has different dynamics than one or a few thugs sneaking through a neighborhood.

An individual or small group can all hear and see you. You jack back a 12 guage pump and point it center mass and they all think it's pointed at them.

A mob turning up your street has momentum and is loud. You and a few friends standing in the street may be able to stop the front to talk but, man, the odds are getting thin on your side. If you try and talk while the crowd surges around you, you are about to be swarmed. Game over.

You have to be in a spot where they can not get too close and you can defend from. If your neighborhood is organized a number of neighbors in second floor windows or roofs will cool a crowd real quick.

Or a line of cars blocking the street with you and your friends standing in truck beds behind them with a few more on the roofs. The crowd will be slowed and they can see you are armed. The problem is they can see you and you would make a nice target.

This is a hard problem to cover because not one item in here is cut and dried. So much depends on the "why" of the incounter, "numbers" and the "who and how prepared are they" are involved.

A thinking person will come out better than one who panics.

Most here are thinking

Pete

7624U
07-07-2006, 08:01
The what if factor is high on this thread as Pete said.
give us a clear question.

MAB32
07-07-2006, 08:40
This is an EXCELLENT thread, PERIOD! Thanks TR for bringing this up!

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.

In this area of the country in which I live in, civil disorders, unrest, mobs, and riots are all the same for us. Oour rule is to use CS on them when the first object gets thrown at us, no exceptions. We cannot afford to let it happen twice as the "mob" will pick up on this immediately. For example, we all remember when the NG was down in the practice field at Kent State and a few of them aimed their M-1's at the closest individuals. Because they didn't fire, the instigators stated out loud that "the pigs guns aren't loaded" over and over again. We al know that this wasn't true and the final tally was Kent 0 NG 4. In our case CS is a force multiplier and when we throw one canister of CS and a HC greande along with it, the CS has a tendency to cling onto the HC and actually increase the effects of the CS two-fold. Now for some advice from my standpoint as a LEO. We cannot protect everybody in our jurisdiction, PERIOD! If a disaster strikes we will definately try, but believe me when I tell you that priorities are just that. We will try and get to you as soon as we can but remember, we will be taqking longer than usual depending on the disaster. Therefore, it is my belief and my advice to all of you, don't count on us to be there when the rounds start firing. Most of those rounds will be aimed at us and that kinda takes up allot of our time. So...arm yourself with a shotgun and/or a rifle and protect you and your loved ones. We will tag the body later and have it removed. I say this because during a disaster, there are three kinds of people: 1) Predators, 2) Prey, and 3) the Protectors. The first two are self explanatory, the third is all of us here on this site. Hopefully most of us here will also protect the ones who cannot help themselves on top of our own family. I am not sure what gun shows are like anywhere else in the country but around here we have guys who sell CS to just about anybody (Note: We have not had a single incident where a CS canister was used in a public place). I have one in my vehicle along with an HC. I call both of them together my "Anti Reginald Denny kit". I reccommend everybody here do the same. I live near a National Park so my distances where "contact" could be made with a Predator can be anywhere from 25 meters all the way up to 300+ meters (if need be though). Like I think TR stated before, just how much of a threat is a person that far away anyways (MAB's paraphrase)? We all have to remember that we do not want to bring any needless attention to ourselves in the first place. So opening up on a fella at 300 meters just because he is carrying a pistol is just foolish. However, if he spotted you first and decided that his scoped "deer slayer" rifle could take you out and he fired first, well then it is a no brainer.

One other thought. I am going out on a very big limb here over the Cuyahoga River (yes, this is the river that caught fire years ago!) . Remember this: "When asked if you have any firearms tell them NO, I sold them at a few gunshows a while back, or, I lost it duck hunting." I think you all get the picture. The above is just my personal belief when it comes to disasters and some past experiences while on the job. Take it for what it is worth and remember "We cannot be there for everybody, therefore people are going to die, don't be one of them."

BoyScout
07-07-2006, 19:03
Not to get off the self defense topic but... What about communications if you are in groups, IE family, buddies, teammates, co-workers ECT? I know that with nukes comes EMPs and in any major disaster most cell phones would either be out of order from loss of towers or the emergancy personnel are using up the airwaves. Should we use CB and GMRS/FMRS radios?

The Reaper
07-07-2006, 19:23
Not to get off the self defense topic but... What about communications if you are in groups, IE family, buddies, teammates, co-workers ECT? I know that with nukes comes EMPs and in any major disaster most cell phones would either be out of order from loss of towers or the emergancy personnel are using up the airwaves. Should we use CB and GMRS/FMRS radios?

BoyScout.

Do not hijack my thread.

We are covering these topics in a specific order. If you had bothered to read this entire thread, you would know that, and you would know when commo is slotted to be discussed.

We now return you to the discussion of disaster defensive preparations.

I believe that we were discussing what a beginner should acquire for weapons and basic defensive planning. Once we are done with that to everyone's satisfaction, we will move on to what defensive preparations a more experienced person might want to make in a disaster.

As far as scenarios go, I would limit engagement to how to defend your property, then to defending your residence, and finally to personal defense.

TR

BoyScout
07-07-2006, 21:13
Sorry, TR. I'll read it again.

mugwump
07-07-2006, 22:22
Do not hijack my thread...I believe that we were discussing what a beginner should acquire for weapons and basic defensive planning.
TR

I have learned the weapon is the easy part. I know TR has mentioned training several times in this thread, but recently working with a true beginner has pounded home how much is involved in conferring even minimum levels of proficiency. Safe handling, loading/unloading the specific firearm, immediate action drills, "use the safety, damnit", "Prone, what's prone?" Sheesh. After that, cleaning and lubricating has to be addressed, storage, etc.

Next you have the whole blow-up-the-water jug demonstration, discussion of cover vs. concealment, and convincing the new shooter that his sheetrock and aluminum siding, and then the neighbor's siding and sheetrock, are no barrier to a bullet. No, the cowboy shooting the whiskey bottle and leaving intact the mirror behind it is NOT how things work in real life. Accounting for every round in a suburban setting is daunting.

All this before sight picture, exhale halfway squeeze, etc. And then impressing on him that this is a perishable skill and it's his responsibility as a gun owner to practice.

Finally (this should actually be firstly) there is working out beforehand the morality of using the firearm. What are the ROE? Under everyday conditions, civil disorder, SHTF?

I haven't taken the NRA course since the seventh grade, but that seems to be a reasonable place for the beginner to start. After that, 'enough' range time to achieve minimal proficiency. I recently defined that as placing ten consecutive rounds into a paper plate offhand at 25 yards. Weak, I know, but I ran out of patience. I figured it was good enough of a start to move forward on his own.

Sorry, this is nothing new to you guys, the Army takes 18 year old newbies and teaches them how to shoot every day. After easily moving my daughter from .22 rimfire to an AR, I guess I forgot what a foundation she was building on.

I'd be interested in hearing how others define minimum acceptable proficiency in a newbie.

x SF med
07-08-2006, 07:45
Due to the area of the country where I live, I stick with edged or blunt weapons (blunt being short batons/nunchukau, staffs, baseball bats, cars). The hoops one has to jump through to own bullet launchers in NY/NJ are more than I need to go through, plus the registration process allows for LE to check firearms should something happen in my area. I think battlefield acquisition for firearms would be my best bet here. After an initial E&E, of course.

JGarcia
07-08-2006, 08:59
I concur! Originally Posted by The Reaper
As far as scenarios go, I would limit engagement to how to defend your property, then to defending your residence, and finally to personal defense.


A disproportionate number of us are well versed in firearms, and different forms of ass kicking. Can we spend some more time focusing on what steps we can take to defend: Property, then Home, then Self & Others?

I suppose the first thing to do is to have a plan, especially in keeping with the title "Be Prepared." What criteria should we think about when planning defense of property? How long do we defend the property? At what point do we fall back to a final defensive position within a residence?

Or is it better to examine each as separate incidents?

What I mean is, should we examine a scenario to defend our property from likely offenses? And then examine scenarios to defend homes or residences against offenses? (such as, burglary, fire, vandalism, or intruder, societal break down, etc.?).

Militarily speaking, we all have some level of familiarity with the MDMP. To begin we need a mission, enemy or threat situation, intelligence preparation, current environment, etc. Right? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

MAB32
07-08-2006, 09:17
Here is my "theory" on weapon confiscation buy us LEO's.

First, There isn't enough of us in the country to go door to door asking for your weapons based on the ATFE's "yellow" Forms.

Secondly, I really believe that a small percentage of the FFL's in this country would burn, misplace, or something else via "God's will" would happen to them.

Thirdly, This is the way I believe will really happen,is that there would probaly be a "Grace Period" in which you have a certain amount of time to turn in that 22 caliber", scoped "B-52 Destroyer". After that, you would be subject to a search and seizure with prison time in the Federal system making little rocks out of big rocks.

Thus, what I stated before in my last post goes into effect.

We all know that when a disaster strikes hard, my list of people in the last post can be further broke down into the "Haves" and the "Have Not's".

The Reaper
07-09-2006, 23:08
I would look at my goals and priorities, examine the most serious contingencies, then the most likely.

It would be prudent to determine what you plan to do for each of the major scenarios, with likely branches/alternatives, and time lines for each. As you could see from any of the major hurricanes last year, trying to evacuate late, or acquire supplies after the fact, is a difficult proposition.

Once I had plans developed to my satisfaction, I would attempt to prioritize my efforts. Buying hurricane shutters, a battery of firearms, and a year's supply of food simultaneously would strain many of our budgets. Decide what your most critical needs are after planning, and acquire them sequentially as possible. Pay particular attention to life support and multi-use items.

As far as defense planning goes, there are a multitude of questions which you must answer before proceeding. Will you stay or go elsewhere? Are you alone, or with responsibility for others? How many will be able/willing to fight to defend themselves? Will you help others, or reserve your resources for yourself? Are you willing to kill others to defend your life? Your property? What sort of property are you defending? An apartment? A multi-thousand acre ranch? How long do you need to hold it before you expect relief? Will your neighbors be reliable to help, or part of the problem? Will you need security 24/7? Are there also weapons needed for hunting, or are they for defense only? Do dangerous game or large predators live in your area? Do you have (or can you create) natural barriers like bodies of water, steep drops, hedgerows, fences, etc.? Do you live near a major population center or transportation artery? Is your dwelling subject to natural disasters? Being burned? What degree of societal breakdown would you accept before initiating your plan?

Less than lethal would include chemicals, impact weapons, electrical devices, etc. These are almost all contact range weapons, some, like chemicals may give a few meters range. Everyone should have these in their home, vehicle, workplace, etc. and on them, if legal.

Edged weapons are fine for close in, but most require training to use effectively, unless you are only going to posture with them. They do not require reloads or batteries, can be inexpensive, and some are legal to carry when other alternatives are not. They are also good tools when used for their intended purpose. They are not going to reach very far out and touch anyone, like on the other side of your property (or your door). Many people expect to be in a knife on knife fight, like in the movies. That is a very rare occurrence. Usually one or more combatants will have a better weapon than the other. Like a gun. Shame to be the one who brought the knife to the gunfight.

A handgun is a personal defense weapon for close range defense (0-50 meters or less for most people) when carrying a long gun is impractical. It is compact but fires a round of relatively low power. Revolvers are simple, easy to use, and among the most reliable firearms available and can fire a variety of ammunition types, but are limited in capacity and can be slow reloading. Autoloaders or pistols are faster shooting and reloading, most are higher capacity than revolvers, but can be finnicky, difficult to employ effectively, and can handle only a limited variety of ammunition. I prefer to keep to .357 Magnum or larger in revolvers, 9x19 or larger in defensive handguns, and .380 or larger in hideout or back-up pistols.

A shotgun is also a short range weapon with tremendous power but it is bulky, the ammo is heavy, and reloads are slow. It comes in a variety of operating systems, some better than others. Accuracy can be problematic due to the shot spread, range is limited, 0-35m. or so with shot, up to 100m. with slugs. Shotguns are best for putting as lot of hits on a few targets in a hurry, up close. The most popular gauges are 12 and 20ga.

Rifles and carbines are longer range weapons from zero to 1000m. or more. They are very effective up close as well, as long as there is room to maneuver them. For that reason, many prefer short barreled weapons for vehicle or indoor employment. They fire a variety of ammunition, most significantly more powerful than handguns and with the attendant blast and recoil. For that reason, they can also be harder to manage, though they are superior as long as size and weight are not an issue. You can add optics to make it faster or easier to engage targets. They have a variety of actions, from muzzle loading single shots through fully automatic weapons. Rifle rounds also tend to overpenetrate. As with the handguns and shotguns, it is important to select a round that will accomplish the intended purpose while not being excessively difficult for the shooter to manage. Military calibers (like 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, .30-'06, etc.) make ammo easier to come by and also usually have good availability as they are adopted as hunting rounds.

For beginners defending small areas, I recommend a shotgun be the first acquisition after less than lethal weapons. A pistol is a good second purchase, but will usually cost significantly more money than most defensive type shotguns and require much more training to become proficient. Beginners should definitely get training from a competent source, be it the NRA courses, shooting clubs, or concealed carry classes. Note that the class is the beginning of the training, you must follow through with it to get the full potential value. Due to penetration issues, I would only recommend rifles for those who have larger real estate to defend and who will take the time to learn to shoot one properly.

Intermediate users or those with larger property should have a pistol, preferably a military caliber autoloader and a military type rifle or carbine in a military caliber per shooter. Note that if you live in an area where you have the sort of silly legislators who arbitrarily ban firearms based on physical characteristics, rifles like the M1 Garand, an SKS, or an SMLE are still usually legal and are highly effectve, in the right hands. A shotgun or two may be desirable, especially if the weapon is also going to be used to gather food, though the weight of the ammo makes it a poor second to anything else for that purpose. A scoped bolt action rifle may be a useful addition for gathering food or if the property requires longer range engagements. A rimfire is a nice addition as the ammo is cheap, it has a low noise signature, and is great for pest control and clean-up work.

Advanced users do not need me to tell them what to get, they already know and most likely already have it.

Don't forget ammo (including training), spare mags, loaders, cleaning supplies, cases, and spare parts, if necessary. I would like to have at least 1000 rounds per military type rifle, 500 per handgun, 250 per shotgun, and 250 for precision or hunting rifles. Magazines are cheap right now after being very expensive for ten years. I like at least seven good, fresh, issue-type mags per pistol and military rifle. Skip the aftermarket junk. The time may come when you cannot obtain them, and they are essential for functioning firearms. If you cannot carry your basic load, consider some sort of LBE. It does not have to be a $600 HSLD vest, a $35 set of used military LBE from the surplus store is fine.

If you are going to employ this force in less than a full breakdown of civil authority (LA Riots, New Orleans, etc.) you need to consider the legal implications of lethal force. Shooting a guy at 1000 yards, or even 50 yards with a pipe in his hand, in your yard, or outside your house is going to make you vulnerable to extended evaluation by our civil and criminal system. Make sure that you understand when and where you may carry and what the restrictions are on the employment of deadly force. It is as important to know when to use the weapon as it is to know how to use it.

Hope this helps.

TR

7624U
07-12-2006, 17:01
Bump

Advanced user
500 rds rifle 7.62x51
250 rds .357 / 150 rds .44
5000 rds .22 LR

staying mobile is my plan of action.

dr. mabuse
07-12-2006, 17:44
Thanks TR. Excellent thread as expected.

Pete
07-12-2006, 17:56
Bump

Advanced user
.......

Advanced user.

While I am quite comfortable in my home a serious breakdown in law and order would see a quick move 1 mile over to my in-laws house, with all the equipment, that can be moved. Food, Arsenal and emergency supplies get loaded in the truck first.

They have a brick house with higher windows, window overlooking the driveway, larger lot with better fields of fire/observation and a bit more out of the way. Plus plenty of room for the extended family and full freezers:D . They have the real food and I have all the emergency food.

They have their own Arsenal, have CC Licenses and are dead shots with pistols.

Many hands make for light work, and shorter shifts at night.

Pete

MAB32
07-12-2006, 21:22
Pete,

excellent point made by stating "a brick house". Few too many of us have paper thin walls which allow a .22caliber LR to penetrate! Anythin in the .30 caliber and above will probably penetrate two or more walls like a hot knife through butter. You also must take into affect your FOF's like Pete and TR so stated. Defending one's home and family is allot of planning, planning and planning. I also like how TR has eloquently placed each category of weapons in thier PROPER place on the distance scale of usage.

To "bug out" or to not "bug out" that is the question. If you have members in your family that are incapacitated by illness then your chances of "bugging out" becomes a matter of debate, especially when invalids and the very old are in question. Guys with such persons in their families are handicapped when it comes to moving far distances. You need to decide right now if it is worth moving before it happens, during it, or staying put and having a plan to defend your castle.

On a side note, I know of allot of cops who have built homes as far away as possible in order to be away from the masses in a SHTF scenario. Some have even bought land near the Alleghenies in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Land in West Virginia is dirt cheap if you don't mind owning a mountain and the high ground and views for miles. Just my .02 worth.

This an excellent thread I hope that it stays alive! Allot to be learned here by the QP's!:)

7624U
07-12-2006, 22:20
Advanced user.

While I am quite comfortable in my home a serious breakdown in law and order would see a quick move 1 mile over to my in-laws house, with all the equipment, that can be moved. Food, Arsenal and emergency supplies get loaded in the truck first.

They have a brick house with higher windows, window overlooking the driveway, larger lot with better fields of fire/observation and a bit more out of the way. Plus plenty of room for the extended family and full freezers:D . They have the real food and I have all the emergency food.

They have their own Arsenal, have CC Licenses and are dead shots with pistols.

Many hands make for light work, and shorter shifts at night.

Pete


Pete how many trips would it take to move all your stuff that you need from your house to your in-laws? and what would you sacrafice if lets say you could only make 2 trips.
And do you guys have any way to power the freezers when the utilitys go off.
Meat will go bad fast. unless you start salting it right away or smoke it.

Im sort of at a transition right now I have a house but would not stick around if things got bad,
I would load up the truck and small camper and move. to a wilderness area, mainly as a squater hunter type guy after my 3 months food ran out if the emergency lasted that long.
I would also set up a still if i could mainly for barter and trade if needed.

The biggest problem I have is Fuel and traveling on roads because I have to assume roads will be blocked by.
A. Military or LEO's
B. local residents that dont want strangers passing threw thier town.
C. Gangs of Looters and Thugs wanting toll to pass, or worst take everything you have.

Any thoughts on Moble Survival Vs Stadic Defence. good and bad of both.
I have my Idea's but want to hear others.
Pete's was the first post of this type we know what his plan is.

Pete
07-13-2006, 06:04
Pete how many trips would it take to move all your stuff that you need from your house to your in-laws? and what would you sacrafice if lets say you could only make 2 trips.......

With a full size truck and mini-van the generator (for the freezers), all the food, and all the guns/ammo can go in them. Cloths, glowing box (so I can tall to you guys), things of value/pictures can go in the SUV and car. Nice to have 4 drivers for the next few years. I'd come back with the truck and get every bit of tools, nails, scrap wood, boards, canvas and tarps I could pull out of the house, garage and storage building.

The route is through a subdivision so I see no great worry there. Just those four vehicles have 62 gallons of gas while the in-laws have another 32 gallons. 5 gallons in the generator and two 5 gallon cans gives us a total of over 100 gallons of gas for the generator. I stress to the females to keep the vehicle tanks full. If it gets close to a half tank fill it up. Generally when I jump in one of their cars the gas light comes on and they say "Don't worry, we have at least enough for 20 miles or so.":(

Plan to drain gas from the less useful cars/van first keeping one high MPG car for zipping in and out if required and keeping the two pickups full if bug out to the beach house is required. Hate to go there but it is low population most of the time and is close to a fresh water source and a food source, the waterway & ocean.

I see all of the above as kind of a worst case deal. As in a "few days" of the world/state/city situation going down hill. A storm would hit you instantly if you blew off the weather reports.

I see something like the bird flue taking a few days to get rolling. The first day would see the panic buying at the stores. The second day everybody would be sitting at home grumpy because they didn't get their fair share. The third day all those people get together and say "Lets take our fair share from those that have it."

Can you see trying to get your neighbor to move in with you so you can burn his house down to clear a field of fire?:eek: Man, talk about end times. Of the five houses around my in-laws four are frame and all have retired couples living in them.

So want does the average person think about and see as they drive around the neighborhood? Dang, it kinda' gets back to that SA thing.

Pete

Pete
07-13-2006, 07:49
This thread is not to be taken by the casual reader as that we are a bunch of nuts locked inside our homes and shooting at every UPS man who stops a truck in the driveway.

How many casual readers can walk out to the power box of their home and cut power on Friday afternoon and make it to Monday about 6:00AM before you turn it back on?

No cheating by going out to eat, or to the Mall and movies. Stay there on your property for 60 hours. Can you eat, have lights and can you make yourself comfortable? Cut power and the garage door opener don't work anyway.

Try it and report back to this thread.

Think of it as an adventure.

Pete

x SF med
07-13-2006, 07:49
My Bug out plan is to head away from the major population center close to me, toward the boat. My diesel vehicle gets 44 mpg if driven hard (80+ mph), I can get close to 50 mpg if I drive at or under 65 mph - At speed I can make it from the Lincoln tunnel in NJ to Asheville NC on one tank of fuel - plus it's pretty inconspicuous, a hatchback that will hold 2 people, plus attendant gear for a close to 2week 'trip'.

I'm still fitting out the boat, but if it fits in the car, it will fit in the boat, a few trips in the zodiac, but it'll get there. Since it's a sailboat - in most cases fuel is a secondary concern. Solar panels trickle charge the batteries.

Cincinnatus
07-13-2006, 09:00
x_sf_med,

VW Golf?

All (or at least all civies),

Rehearsal is important. We've had sev'l power outages with the heavy rain and resultant flooding up here. We've had no real problems as we have extra food, batteries, crank radio, FAK, lots of lights, etc., but in every case when reviewing what we did, I found things that could have been done better.

This is given the tools and supplies at hand. Simple organizational things, not "Oh, I wish I had XXX." Rehearsal would have addressed these.

HTH

x SF med
07-13-2006, 09:11
Das ist richtig, VW Golf GLS TDI. It'll run a buck and a quarter (3.8k rpm)without breaking a sweat too.... too bad it's an auto, with a manual I could probably (if I drove the speed limit) get 55+ mpg out of it. 90 hp, 165 ftlb low end torque (powerband 1.8k-3.6k rpm, 17 lb turbo kick at 1.93k rpm).:rolleyes:

Gotta love German engineering in an escape pod - speed, efficiency, and carry space. Doesn't hurt that I had to take more driving instruction while in the military than is good for any one person either.....

The Reaper
07-13-2006, 09:23
Pete hit the nail on the head.

Turn your power off for a day or two and see how you will get by.

Most would be surprised how often you continue reaching for that switch when you enter a room, even after a day without electricity.

If the H5N1 projections are correct, this could be a temporary disruption in services with a potentially significant casualty list. It may not be the end of the world as we know it. The projections showed waves at regular intervals, so it will likely not be complete loss of resources continuously for years. Those who have 90 days or so of supply should be able to make it through the three waves without having to compete with the panic buyers after the first wave hits.

As far as stay or go, for those who are building a fortress, most residences will burn and burn quickly. If you are going to bunker up and hunker down in a metropolitan area, you better have 24/7 security and once hostilities start, keep people out of hand grenade/Molotov range.

Those who plan to evacuate better look at the hurricane traffic jams and do it early. There is no doubt that if things degenerate to a societal breakdown, roadblocks, roving gangs, etc. will make highway travel exciting and journeys of more than a few miles impossible.

I hope that it does not get to that, but if you look at NYC, the odds of surviving a disaster in a city with millions of people and no natural resources, or getting onto one of the routes out after trouble starts and making it out successfully is very likely close to zero. I wouldn't count on getting a lot after the first HTH epidemic wave starts.

The key will be having a plan with trigger events on a timetable and executing BEFORE things go very far downhill. If it is a false alarm, you burned a little gas and maybe missed a day or two of work.

The important thing is to have a realistic plan and rehearse it, then remain flexible.

TR

jasonglh
07-13-2006, 11:58
With the crappy utility service I have here we loose power for 2-3 days every couple of months anyway. I am the last house on this dead end road and I think maybe the transformer or whatever was never upgraded when they added all the new houses on the other end. Downside of living in the woods at the edge of civilizaation not enough squeaky wheels to get good service.

MAB32
07-13-2006, 12:33
Also, just FYI, the power outage that had affected almost the entire Northeast resulted from a simple glich in the computer that is about 5 miles from where I live. First Energy took a hit as did the city of Akron from everybody in New York City for this power outage. What we have here is one single thing going wrong and a very large portion of the Northeast suffer from it. This means that you don't have to be near a disaster in order to have it affect you. 100's of miles away could affect you now. Just my 2 cents.

The Reaper
07-13-2006, 12:50
The grid is overloaded, inadequately upgraded, lacks redundancy, and is a time bomb ticking. Take a clue and be prepared.

You can either make your own electricity, or be ready to get by without it. IMHO, living without it for more than an hour or two is very inconvenient and uncomfortable.

Remember that when the lights go out, the roaches come out of the woodwork, at the human level as well as the insect.

Hence the need for a defensive plan and preparation.

Jason, if I lost power that often, I would write the utility company a letter and cc the state utility commission. I would also be ready for the next time they went out. At the same time, you sound like you are out of the high-traffic area refugees and criminals prefer.

TR

mugwump
07-13-2006, 13:02
Think of it as an adventure.

Pete

I have a hard enough time keeping the air conditioning off when the temp hits 80F. The spousal unit is not into adeventure.

mugwump

Pete
07-13-2006, 13:34
....The spousal unit is not into adeventure.

mugwump

The House Boss over here gives me some odd looks now and again but just so long as I spend my money on prep work it's OK.

Although she did say her idea of roughing it was Motel 6 and I had better be ready to cough up that level of comfort when needed, again on my dime.

Pete

JGarcia
07-13-2006, 14:11
RE: the non-bullet stopping nature of houses

There are 'bullet proof' wall board panels you can buy in varying thicknesses and degrees of protection. They use UL and NIJ ratings and some of them have been 'R' value tested. Some of the brand names are armorcore, and secureall. I have no idea what they cost - I just wanted to point out that they are available. Woulda posted the link, but its commercial in nature so...

jasonglh
07-13-2006, 18:28
TR

I would complain but it would not help at this point. We are only less than a year post F-4 tornado trying to cruise through downtown here. Much of my power going out is for 2-3 hours during the day while they are working on something somewhere. I'm not sure what happens each time it goes out for more than a day at a time though. That put them way behind in trying to do the already planned upgrades. I just hope they get all the weakened poles and lines replaced before the winters first nasty ice storm gets here.

But yes I am about 2 miles from the city limits surrounded by thousands of acres of reclaimed strip mine property. In a disaster I dont think many would venture down this dead end road the interstate is on the otherside of town.

mugwump
07-13-2006, 20:02
RE: the non-bullet stopping nature of houses

There are 'bullet proof' wall board panels you can buy in varying thicknesses and degrees of protection. They use UL and NIJ ratings and some of them have been 'R' value tested. Some of the brand names are armorcore, and secureall. I have no idea what they cost - I just wanted to point out that they are available. Woulda posted the link, but its commercial in nature so...

See this rather long video: Basic Urban Skills Training - Ballistic Penetration Tests (http://www.militaryvideos.net/videos.php?videonum=43#)

Marine Corps penetration tests of cinder block, brick, plywood/stud/plaster board and interior walls by M9, Shotgun w/ bird and buck shot, AK47, M-16, M249, M40A1, M240g, M2, M82, M203, M67 frag, M44 30mm chain gun.

mugwump

mugwump
07-13-2006, 20:28
My Bug out plan is to head away from the major population center close to me....

x_sf_med,

It may not be necessary to bug out, NY seems to have things well in hand. In the event of a phase 6 pandemic in NY:

"Symptomatic individuals who who must go out in public will be encouraged to wear facemasks."

The following almost makes it sound like they're afraid of offending the virus. We mustn't prejudge or be guilty of genetic profiling.

"School Closures

There are no systematic studies that show the effect school closures have on levels of influenza activity in a community. (School closures at the peak of influenza outbreaks are usually a response to high student and/or staff absenteeism—not an effort to prevent transmission.)"

You may even be able to take in a Broadway show, or a Knicks game.

"Cancellation of Public Gatherings

Evidence regarding the effect on influenza transmission of canceling public gatherings is lacking. Decisions regarding such cancellations will depend on the specific characteristics and epidemiology of the pandemic strain as well as other considerations listed at the beginning of this section."

Scary document: Pandemic Influenza Preparedness and Response Plan (http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/cd/cd-panflu-plan.shtml#4)

Slantwire
07-14-2006, 07:32
It may not be necessary to bug out, NY seems to have things well in hand.


Wow, I feel so much better now.

7624U
07-14-2006, 21:39
Can we assume if a social break down happens all paper money will be worthless, and only hardware and food will have value along with skills IE. a trade. (Mr. Harsey) type.

Or when the power goes out and money is still good who will be SOL because they use debt and credit cards and dont have cash on them. any thoughts.

I still have Cash on me but i also have some barter items case the need ever happened. Barter I mean trade items that are as old as Humans. Booze,Suger,Coffee,Salt.

MAB32
07-14-2006, 21:56
7624U,

A wise man once told me that the best bartering tool in a social breakdown will be "ammunition." I tend to agree. Though this might be short-sideness on my part, I think it is a very good point for stocking it.

The Reaper
07-14-2006, 22:08
Can we assume if a social break down happens all paper money will be worthless, and only hardware and food will have value along with skills IE. a trade. (Mr. Harsey) type.

Or when the power goes out and money is still good who will be SOL because they use debt and credit cards and dont have cash on them. any thoughts.

I still have Cash on me but i also have some barter items case the need ever happened. Barter I mean trade items that are as old as Humans. Booze,Suger,Coffee,Salt.

I believe that it would take a pretty bad situation where the average person would turn down cash.

Credit cards, checks, and bank accounts, absolutely worthless fairly quickly.

Gold should hold beyond cash, as would staples, though I tend to agree on ammo and alcohol, as long as whoever you are trading it to is not likely to be giving it back to you shortly afterwards. I like 5,000 round blocks of .22LR. Useful, inexpensive now, stores well, and makes for good change as well as not being as potentially dangerous to my family as some other ammo.

For a pandemic, or a lot of other disasters, I would want to have a couple of thousand in small denominations of cash locked up in the safe. Hard to get change for a $100 when you are hungry and the other guy has a can of beans. Might want to get a few hundred in silver or gold coins as well, if you have the wherewithall. Diamonds, being an artificially inflated commodity with little real value and no competition, would IMHO be a bad trade item.

Are we done with defensive planning here?

TR

7624U
07-15-2006, 04:07
Are we done with defensive planning here?

TR

1 vote: yes
to keep the thread active

x SF med
07-15-2006, 06:28
TR- I think defensive planning is done - Next Topic?

MAB32
07-15-2006, 06:31
I also agree, what is next?

mugwump
07-15-2006, 07:23
I have a comms issue I could use advice on if that isn't jumping the gun.

The Reaper
07-15-2006, 08:59
Next up:

Breathable Air
First Aid/Medicine/Escape gear
Defense
Shelter/Warmth/Light
Water
Food/cooking
Sanitation
Commo
Power/Fuel
Tools
Transportation/Mobility
Entertainment

My thought is that this next topic can cover both how to stay warm and dry in the woods as well as in a dwelling after a disaster.

Disaster lighting is included as an adjunct to fire/warmth, but can be a separate topic.

What should we do to be prepared for a disaster, regardless of whether it is the roof being ripped off by a hurricane, the power going out in a winter storm, being caught by an early snowfall surprise in the woods, or if pandemic flu hits and support systems fail, we stay warm and dry?

TR

Gypsy
07-15-2006, 10:07
My thought is that this next topic can cover both how to stay warm and dry in the woods as well as in a dwelling after a disaster.

Disaster lighting is included as an adjunct to fire/warmth, but can be a separate topic.

What should we do to be prepared for a disaster, regardless of whether it is the roof being ripped off by a hurricane, the power going out in a winter storm, being caught by an early snowfall surprise in the woods, or if pandemic flu hits and support systems fail, we stay warm and dry?

TR

Haven't had enought coffee yet, but off the top of my head to start:

Clothing/Warmth related

Blankets
Tarps (for cover and to keep supplies dry)
Extra clothing items that can be layered
Socks
Sturdy shoes/boots
Gloves
Hats (wool type coverings) and scarves

Lighting:

Various Flashlights and batteries for same
Candles (?)
Matches
Lighters
Perhaps some type of oil lamps (?)

I'm probably thinking too much "inside the box" and look forward to other ideas.

BoyScout
07-15-2006, 18:32
For warmth while growing up, coleman used to make kerosene heaters that we used when the power went out in the winter. Was that a good idea? Lighting was often done either by lanterns or candles. My wife and I keep an oil lamp and some candles.

My question is what can be used in tornado shelters for warmth and lighting? Last F-5 to hit arround here put a large roof ontop of the shelter my brother and his family is using and then had to be fond and dug out. One may be stuck there for a while and tonados have happened in December.

7624U
07-16-2006, 11:44
Shelter: having a good 2-3 man tent that is easy to set up is a life saver.
also if you want to stay real dry having some type of large encloser over that tent can be handy.
When its warm out you wont need the smaller tent just the larger encloser like a BBQ tent or bug screen that has a roof nothing fancey,
it will do nicely to keep the bugs off so you can sleep.

If all you have is the small tent because you dont have the larger.
make sure you always leave a window open to get fresh air while its raining. some tents if they get real wet, will form a vapor lock and you could die inside it from Co2 posioning.

Always have some type of ground pad to lay on even if its just cardboard
your loss of body heat will be twice as fast threw contact with the cold ground.

Survival clothing Wool is my choice ( yes its itchy) its not soft like fleece liners.
Man made outdoor clothing has come a long way but Wool as a under garment under your Gortex jacket is still the best for retaining heat while wet. dress in layers and cotton kills most know these simple truths.

Monsoon65
07-16-2006, 18:13
My question is what can be used in tornado shelters for warmth and lighting? Last F-5 to hit arround here put a large roof ontop of the shelter my brother and his family is using and then had to be fond and dug out. One may be stuck there for a while and tonados have happened in December.

Well, in an enclosed shelter, you don't want something that will produce fumes unless you have a way to vent it.

BoyScout
07-16-2006, 22:32
Monsoon, of course. Most tornado shelters are ventilated with a four to six inch air duct that wasp loved to build their nest in. Not enough for fueled heaters. But brown reclouse (not sure aabout the spelling) or fiddlebacks as they are called locally love to make their homes in them so blankets and sleeping bags that are not sealed in plastic are not a good idea. (I do not have a lot of money and barely scrape by so plastic bags/containers to store are not as important as medicine and food.) These little boogers have a nasty necrodic venom and can do a lot of damage. One came close to killing me.

Speaking of fiddle backs, if you store you tents and other camping gear make sure that they are not going to surpise you when you use them. I know most people on this forum know that, but sometimes one tends to not think about them. And if you have to live out of a tent for a while, you might want to check out you shelter daily. I have seen experienced campers fail to do so and find themselves surprised.

If you find yourself trapped under rubble, debrit or the odd roof, you could be in for a wait. In my family's case, over three hours. Make sure you have water. Not tring to hijack again, but it had just came to me and it can be easily over looked. You get hit at night, rescue personnel may not find you for a while.

Monsoon65
07-19-2006, 16:29
Monsoon, of course. Most tornado shelters are ventilated with a four to six inch air duct that wasp loved to build their nest in. Not enough for fueled heaters. But brown reclouse (not sure aabout the spelling) or fiddlebacks as they are called locally love to make their homes in them so blankets and sleeping bags that are not sealed in plastic are not a good idea. (I do not have a lot of money and barely scrape by so plastic bags/containers to store are not as important as medicine and food.) These little boogers have a nasty necrodic venom and can do a lot of damage. One came close to killing me.

Speaking of fiddle backs, if you store you tents and other camping gear make sure that they are not going to surpise you when you use them. I know most people on this forum know that, but sometimes one tends to not think about them. And if you have to live out of a tent for a while, you might want to check out you shelter daily. I have seen experienced campers fail to do so and find themselves surprised.

If you find yourself trapped under rubble, debrit or the odd roof, you could be in for a wait. In my family's case, over three hours. Make sure you have water. Not tring to hijack again, but it had just came to me and it can be easily over looked. You get hit at night, rescue personnel may not find you for a while.

Geez, Brown Recluse! I was stationed at Tinker AFB with the 3rd Combat Comm. We checked everything before and after we went into the field.

If you're storing stuff in plastic bags, how about tossing in some mothballs? Would that keep the critters out??

Earlier in this thread, they discussed keeping wrecking bars/pinch bars handing in case you're trapped in a shelter.

MAB32
07-19-2006, 18:13
For warmth it will depend on whether I am inviting the neighborhood or I am wanting to stay in hiding. If I were to remain in hiding I will use clothing and disposable heaters tucked in various places around my skin and my family's. We all know that with small fires smoke travels very far and it is a signal that lights the night. Yes, doing this will be somewhat uncomfortable but I think it is a "can-do." Just my FWIW info.

x SF med
07-19-2006, 19:28
I still hammer my shoes together and snap my clothes prior to getting dressed - nasty little buggers.

I still use the old standby's for 'emergency situations' poncho liner and space blanket combo. Planned situations - 2 bag system convertible to warm and extreme cold (50 to -30 F) along with the poncho liner. (I may need to replace my PL in the future, are they still available?)

A survial fire or indian bed is really good if you aren't fully tactical, and shelter is a matter of making it, depending on the time yiou plan to spend in the AO - just passing through, quick lean-to or hooch or snow hole - long term, get as involved as you want.

As to tents - a 2 layer survival tube is great - light and easy to set up (anybody else remember the PITA 'eco-tat' that was issued in the mid eighties? these asre the exact opposite, easy to set up and vented, and dry)

BoyScout
07-19-2006, 21:45
Monsoon, as for the pry bars, plan for the worst, hope for the best. It also might not be a good idea to try to pry or hack your way out if you are in a basement and the place has colapsed apon itself(maybe not tornado related but earthquake?), it might resualt in a cave in if you disturb something that is baring a load. You might not even get to shelter door cracked if something is too heavy.

As for mothballs, they either work for a short period of time or not at all. I have seen them sitting on the darned balls. Unless the contatiner is sealed, expect them.

I forgot about pocket heaters and the odd electric sock, also thremacare disposible heat packs can last a while.

I'll take what ever punisihment I get, I didn't want to hi-jack.

7624U
07-21-2006, 10:08
BUMP

topic shelter

jatx
07-21-2006, 11:14
I keep a Go-Lite waterproof tarp in the truck, along with some 550 cord and lightweight stakes. This combo is much lighter and more flexible than a tent for short-term shelter requirements. The tarp can also be used to make a more permanent, lean-to type shelter more weather and wind resistant.

While I have a one person space blanket in my pack at all times (primarily as a first aid item), I have also started carrying the two person shelter version as well. It weighs nothing and takes up very little room.

I'd be very interested in tips on constructing various types of shelters in different environments. :munchin

The Reaper
08-19-2006, 10:18
While you can construct shelter of indigenous materials almost anywhere, most of the time, I would expect sufficient salvagable building materials to be available to permit building some sort of weather resistant, if not weatherproof structure. For that reason, axes, hatchets, prybars, etc. for material salvage would be invaluable.

Anyone in an area prone to wind or hurricane damage who does not have enough Visqueen or tarps available to cover the entire roof is IMHO, unprepared. A couple of staplers or a box of roofing nails and a couple of roofing hammers complete the package, and will help prevent further water damage to the structure, at least temporarily.

When traveling by vehicle, the aforementioned space blankets, shelters in a bag, tarps, ponchos, etc, are great resources for temporary shelter, or to improve on expedient or existing shelters. Remember the 550 cord, bungies and stakes to set-up the shelter, and practice it once or twice ahead of time to make sure that you have everything you need to make it work.

If you are on foot, any of the above will work, if you can handle the weight and bulk of the gear. Ideally a tent or improvised shelter and a poncho liner or sleeping bag would be available.

For warmth, consider the environment. If you are in a climate which never gets below 70 degrees, you may need nothing but a poncho liner. If it is regularly below freezing, you are going to have to have sleeping bags. If it is in between, some combo of poncho liners, improvised bags, newspapers, trash bags, sheets, extreme lightweight sleeping bags, etc. may work. Look at the homeless and how they stay warm on the streets in the winter.

Fire is a definite asset for cooking, water purification, etc., as well as heat. You can make a fire in most climates from local materials and a spark source. I would carry a small amount of tinder and a lighter of some source. Up the scale of comfort would be a camp stove, like the excellent MSR stoves, preferably a multi-fuel version that will burn unleaded and kerosene or diesel. You could also use a Coleman multi-burner stove, or a gas grill. Those who have gas kitchen stoves with a pilot light will be fine till the gas runs out. Good reason to keep the tanks topped off and possibly a spare cylinder on site. Remember that many of these devices are not intended for indoor use and are carbon monoxide generators.

For warmth, you can have an open fire, but a good radiant kerosene heater is hard to beat. The typical ones, like an excellent 10,000BTU model sold at Northern are adequate to heat a room or two and will run all night on less than a gallon of fuel. Kerosene will store safely and will keep much longer than gasoline. The downside is that the stoves are either on, of off, there is no thermostat, so you have to open windows or vent heat to the rest of the house to control the temp.

Hope this helps restart this discussion.

TR

mugwump
08-19-2006, 12:32
Reaper's back. :munchin

We live in N Illinois, and while the winters have been getting more moderate we still get the odd -20F night or two. I remember ice storms knocking out power and then a rapid drop into the deep freeze a couple of times when I was a kid, so this isn't just academic. We always have sleeping bags, heat packs, water, food, flashlights, hats, gloves, etc. in a pack in the trunk and we have good, heavy car-camping sleeping bags for use in the house.

I've standardized on propane for my emergency cooking and heating. I have an unused dog house out back full of 20 lb propane cylinders and many cases of 1 pound cylinders in the garage. I also have a couple of adapters for using the 20 lb cylinders with units designed to use 1 lb cans.

For emergency space heating I have a Mr. Heater MH9B. We'll all be sleeping in the same room but we'll be warm.

6624

From the promo literature:

* Runs for up to six hours on one disposable propane cylinder
* 4,000 or 9,000 BTU radiant propane heater
* Low-oxygen shutoff system operates automatically
* Designed for indoor/outdoor use
* Uses the standard 1-pound disposable propane cylinder

For lighting I have a couple of Coleman propane mantle lanterns, various flashlights (from Surefire L4, several G2s, Some really nice Sam's Club LED AAA jobbies, LED dive lights, etc. all AA, AAA or CR123A) and rechargeable AA and AAA batteries. Lots of CR123As. I also save unused but old vegetable oil (old stuff not rotated into use in time) for expedient oil lamps.

mugwump

The Reaper
08-19-2006, 13:01
Good plan.

Most people are not aware that you can tap gas grills and small stoves into the main LP or propane tank with the right knowledge and adaptors. A 500 or 1000 gallon underground tank can provide energy for a very long time and save a lot of money over the 1 lb. and 20 lb. cylinders.

Obviously, it makes a lot more sense to seal off one or two rooms for nighttime use and just heat the space you need. Body heat of several people in one room is not insignificant either.

For lighting, LEDs are definitely the way to go. You can be assured of light with a ten-year shelf life on the lithiums like the 123s, or if you have a generator, use the rechargable lights or rechargeable AAs to power them.

TR

CPTAUSRET
08-19-2006, 13:08
Great thread!

mugwump
08-20-2006, 15:53
A really great LED flashlight I got at Target a while back:

6628

Being a flashlight junkie, I got it after reading a very favorable review (http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/riverrock_lantern.htm) at flashlightreviews.com.

It provides a surprising amount of light (over 8 hours of room-filling flood light on 4 rechargeable AAs) esp for its size. And the price was right -- $20.

mugwump

mugwump
08-20-2006, 15:57
Sorry for the backtrack but the 2006 free versions of Where There Is No Doctor, Where Women Have No Doctor, and A Book for Midwives have been released (Spanish and English) here (http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030361).

Edited: This is the correct link for the books:

http://www.hesperian.org

Peregrino
08-20-2006, 17:31
Sorry for the backtrack but the 2006 free versions of Where There Is No Doctor, Where Women Have No Doctor, and A Book for Midwives have been released (Spanish and English) here (http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030361).

MW - Great article but where're the books? Peregrino

mugwump
08-20-2006, 17:40
I should shut up about heating/lighting because I really want to get to comms (I know...Water, Food/cooking, Sanitation come first).

Now that Surefire has raised their price to $2 for a CR123A I thought I'd post what I've been using lately:

6629

They are only $1 apiece at Amondo Tech (http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=241) and have gotten a very good review (http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/titanium_123a.htm) at flashlightreviews.com. They actually got better run times in an L4 than Surefires.

I have no association other that as a satisfied customer: two orders filled promptly.

mugwump

mugwump
08-20-2006, 20:53
MW - Great article but where're the books? Peregrino

Wow, I messed something up badly. One post disappeared and its link appeared in another post. My bad...

This is the correct link for the books:

http://www.hesperian.org/

Sorry for the confusion.

mugwump

mugwump
08-21-2006, 17:23
This came out today:

DETECTION AND ISOLATION OF HIGHLY PATHOGENIC H5N1 AVIAN INFLUENZA A VIRUSES FROM BLOW FLIES COLLECTED IN THE VICINITY OF AN INFECTED POULTRY FARM IN KYOTO, JAPAN, 2004. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16896143&query_hl=24&itool=pubmed_DocSum)

"Our results suggest it is possible that blow flies could become a mechanical transmitter of H5N1 influenza virus."

mugwump

mugwump
08-22-2006, 17:37
Time article on risk. I didn't know that New York was considered the second biggest insurance risk for hurricanes after Miami.

Floods, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Wildfires, Earthquakes ... Why We Don't Prepare (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1229102,00.html)

mugwump

PSM
08-29-2006, 17:05
I live in a densely populated area and this is a big concern of mine. Our freezer is stocked, at any given time, with 20 pounds of beef, 5 to 8 pounds of pork, 6 to 8 chickens, 2 turkeys, 2 to 3 packages of corned beef (thanks to St. Paddy's day sales :D ), a duck or two, several game hens, etc. We don't need electricity except for the freezer and perhaps battery chargers.

We have a natural gas quick-connect for the grill. I looked into doing a "3 fuel" conversion for a gasoline generator but that would let my neighbors and would-be looters know that I have electricity and something I want to keep cold. Refrigerated items are less important unless they are medications.

I'm leaning steeply towards an inverter and deep cycle marine batteries and a small, quiet, generator to keep them charged.

Pat


While the thread is quiet, I thought I’d follow up on this post.

While the use of marine deep-cycle batteries and inverters was feasible, it dawned on me that it would not be practical in a bug-out scenario.

I discovered that RVers have found that Honda genets cloned by the Chinese (Chondas) are inexpensive, reliable and reasonably quiet (68 dB at 7 meters according to the manual).

I bought a Champion 4450k/3500k unit at a local auto parts store for $300. Last week, while our floors were being refinished, my wife, son, large dog, and I moved into a couple of rooms off the deck and practiced power-out living. Camp stove for cooking, and generator for electricity (except for the hot tub :D ).

The genset has 240/120 VAC and 12 VDC. The flooring guys had a 220 sander that used the generator’s power for the first 30 minutes. I repositioned the generator to the side of the house and connected the refrigerator/freezer, stand-alone freezer, SAT receiver and TV, two 75w lights, laptop, 2 box fans, and 2 cell phone chargers.

During the 11 hours we used it, it seemed rather louder that I had hoped given the tightly packed neighborhood we live in. I experimented with several soundproofing methods. Using open foam cotton-covered deck pads, the sound level became acceptable, at least to us (with the windows closed we could not hear it). I had no way to measure the actual levels, but I was able to compare it to normal local noise levels.

The un-shrouded generator was much quieter than a UPS truck, banner-tow aircraft and a Stearman flying between 1500’ and 2000’, and a leaf-blower. Standing next to a box fan on high I could not hear the generator 20’ away. The sound level was comparable to a small GA aircraft flying over at the above altitudes (although I could still hear the generator because of it’s lower pitch). All helicopters, except the Coast Guard’s HH-65A, were louder. My next-door neighbor was not home so I’m not sure if it would have bothered her. My neighbor across the street works at home and did not hear it. The generator’s exhaust was uncovered, but was deflected, and pointed right at his home-office.

I can’t speak to reliability yet, since it’s only has about 20 hours on it.

Any soundproofing tips will be appreciated.

Pat

The Reaper
08-29-2006, 17:34
Pat:

Sound insulation for engines without water or forced air cooling normally impedes air flow and causes heat problems. Watch the temps.

TR

PSM
08-29-2006, 18:05
Pat:

Sound insulation for engines without water or forced air cooling normally impedes air flow and causes heat problems. Watch the temps.

TR

Roger that, TR. With the 12VDC I can use some of the leftover computer fans I have, if cooling becomes a problem

Also, I need to clarify that the sound comparisons were made before the foam pads were put in place.

Pat

mugwump
08-29-2006, 18:20
I discovered that RVers have found that Honda genets cloned by the Chinese (Chondas) are inexpensive, reliable and reasonably quiet (68 dB at 7 meters according to the manual).

I bought a Champion 4450k/3500k unit at a local auto parts store for $300.

Thanks for this, Pat. I looked at these on the net and the 6.5 hp and 11 hp Chinese copies of Honda's engines do indeed get decent reviews. I'm assuming that at $300 these are not inverter-style generators and therefore produce less-than-perfect AC, but I'm sure it's good enough for keeping the sump pump running as well as laptops/lights/etc.

While rooting around I found the web site below, which sells a $189 kit (Kit 'C' is a "no-drill" adapter kit) that allows these Chonda engines to be tri-fuel: gasoline, natural gas or propane. They claim that switching between fuels is as simple as closing a valve and that running off natgas/propane extends engine life.

In this neck of the woods, if power is off for an extended period (and anything that exceeds the life of your sump pump's battery backup constitutes "extended") you are looking at a flooded basement. It looks like I could pop the natural gas line off of my grill, attach it to the generator, and keep the thing running as long as necessary.

http://www.propane-generators.com/a-c_kits.htm

mugwump

mugwump
08-29-2006, 18:41
Any soundproofing tips will be appreciated.

Pat

I have a friend who keeps his generator in his garage (primarily for his well) and vents it through the wall (think dryer vent) via a short length of flex pipe. He has battery-powered CO detectors in the house and garage and has never had a problem. When the garage door is closed you don't have to walk very far until you can't hear it. Warning: the metal flex pipe gets very hot -- you have to know how to isolate it when you go through the wall (I have no idea).

You can also get a high-quality aftermarket muffler/resonator:

http://www.jackssmallengines.com/faqsupertrap.cfm

mugwump

PSM
08-29-2006, 18:46
I'm assuming that at $300 these are not inverter-style generators and therefore produce less-than-perfect AC, but I'm sure it's good enough for keeping the sump pump running as well as laptops/lights/etc.
mugwump

Correct. I've lived here 30 years, now, and can only remember about a total of 14 hours without power. Eight of that was during the Nortridge quake. The inverter ones are much quieter but much more expensive. I'm not sure if we would get enough use out of it to make it worthwhile.

I may consider the tri-fuel option, also. It still makes it a cheap investment.

Pat

MAB32
08-29-2006, 20:09
I thought I'd share this idea with all of you. Although it seems like a great project I am not so sure it is cost efficent. For the amount of money it would cost for me to buy a template, get an alternator, fan belt, and pulley, I think I'd be in the range for a good reliable generator. What do you all think. Is it worth it?


http://theepicenter.com/tow02077.html

The Reaper
08-29-2006, 21:49
Wow!

Redneck engineers, trying to make a homemade generator out of an old mower or edger engine, in EUGENE, OREGON!!

Who 'da thunk it??:D

TR

Bill Harsey
09-02-2006, 11:19
Wow!

Redneck engineers, trying to make a homemade generator out of an old mower or edger engine, in EUGENE, OREGON!!

Who 'da thunk it??:D

TR
I just scanned the plans, that could be tie-dye engineering but good stuff just the same.

Note: The guys are using .190 of an inch thick aluminum for the main mounting brackets, that's going to be prone to wearing and cracking at the bolt holes with age and vibration.
That bracket would be better made from mild steel of equal or maybe slightly thicker dimension. Yes it will be slightly heavier to pack but much stronger.

jasonglh
09-02-2006, 14:46
Those plans are great for me. I just recently had a pump failure on my Honda pressure washer and it was cheaper to buy a new one than it was to get a new pump. May give me a project for the weekend since its not safe out on the lake with all the drunks!

Bill Harsey
09-02-2006, 18:37
Roger that, TR. With the 12VDC I can use some of the leftover computer fans I have, if cooling becomes a problem

Also, I need to clarify that the sound comparisons were made before the foam pads were put in place.

Pat
Sir,
Unless your working for the NSA, those computer fans won't even begin to help cool anything gas/piston engine fired. Think bigger.

PSM
09-02-2006, 19:59
Sir,
Unless your working for the NSA, those computer fans won't even begin to help cool anything gas/piston engine fired. Think bigger.

Understood, Mr. Harsey. The idea was to improve the air flow for a "box-in-a-box" like the one here:

http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/generator.htm

It might not even be necessary, but it gives me an additional option. I don't have the width available in the dog run to construct the 3 box enclosure illustrated.

Thanks for covering my six, sir.

Pat

jasonglh
09-02-2006, 21:16
A 4 inch 12V marine bilge fan would move lots of air.

So long as I had power I dont think the noise would bother me very much.

PSM
09-02-2006, 21:44
So long as I had power I dont think the noise would bother me very much.

Wouldn't bother me, either. I'm just not eager to become the "Blue Light Special" in a neighborhood of the un-dead...I mean the un-prepared. ;)

Thanks for the bilge fan idea.

Pat

Bill Harsey
09-03-2006, 11:03
PSM,
Just thinking out loud, I've never seen a bilge fan but that sounds promising.
Somewhere in my industrial supply catalogs I've seen in-line fans for ducting (to assist airflow over long runs of duct) and am wondering if they are like a bilge fan.
Got Googlin' to do now.

Edited to add; After some Googlin', Bilge fans are built for marine conditions, inline duct fans are not. For year around outdoor use I'd sure be looking at the bilge fans.

MAB32
09-03-2006, 11:18
X

PSM
09-03-2006, 14:34
PSM,
Just thinking out loud, I've never seen a bilge fan but that sounds promising.
Somewhere in my industrial supply catalogs I've seen in-line fans for ducting (to assist airflow over long runs of duct) and am wondering if they are like a bilge fan.
Got Googlin' to do now.

Edited to add; After some Googlin', Bilge fans are built for marine conditions, inline duct fans are not. For year around outdoor use I'd sure be looking at the bilge fans.

Bill,

It's just a small 6.5hp 3500w portable. It will be stowed in the garage when not needed.

Thanks for doing my homework for me. ;) I'll look into the bilge fans.

Any opinion on the box-in-a-box idea?

Pat

Bill Harsey
09-03-2006, 23:54
Bill,

It's just a small 6.5hp 3500w portable. It will be stowed in the garage when not needed.

Thanks for doing my homework for me. ;) I'll look into the bilge fans.

Any opinion on the box-in-a-box idea?

Pat
The box looks like it would work. I've seen gas generators made fairly quiet by just digging a hole in the ground and putting plywood over the top and you already have the vent system figured out.

Your article about "box in box" references lead for sound insulation, we used lead lined heavy foam rubber on our logging yarder (V-12 Cummins Engine) to get the noise down to acceptable OSHA standards, also seen it used to make a Beech AT-11 twin engine aircraft(bomber trainer) quieter inside. That stuff could be used on the underside of the plywood top covering the generator in the ground.

Kahuku Saint
09-04-2006, 04:10
So people who live in urban enviornments are hopelessly screwed?

I live in downtown San Francisco in a neighborhood favoured by mendicants and other n'er do wells; so if it ever came down to a lawless-type situation, I am asking my local gangbangers for a deal on whatever they have lying around. It is they who'll be doing my stockpiling of ammunition.

In all seriousness though, it comes down to an issue of space. In the spirit of rugged American individualism, it's assumed that everybody owns a house with ample storage space; combined with the inevitable fact that a car is required material, then you have the logistics and transport covered.

San Francisco on the other hand, like NYC, is an "old-city" with a high-density downtown that precludes car-buying. Plus, since I probably pay more for rent than most folk here do for their mortgages (and get less in return), it simply is not possible to store ninety-days worth of anything in my apartment; so I'm pretty much reliant on city services in the event of a major anything. As has been discussed here and elsewhere, it's believed that those'll be overwhelmed in the initial response (as was witnessed during 11 September and the Aum Shinrikyo sarin gas attacks).

But this is all besides the point. The point is, modifying what is essentially a suburban-rural survival plan to accomodate urban dwellers. To wit, this is what I've come up with (mind you, it's late and I'm tired):

1.) Splitting your cache. I for one keep a moderately sized disaster preparedness kit in my apartment; it won't last ninety days, but if used properly it should last two weeks. In all sense, that should be enough to last until I get to the main stockpile. Since space is such a premium here in the Bay Area, it would be optimally located further down the Penninsula in, say, a self-storage unit(?).

I know the idea is to have it all with you, but given space requirements and the possibility of a last-minute EVAC, this seems definitely feasible, if not viable.

2.) Since everything tends to happen in close-quarters in an urban enviornment, I would second TR's recommendation of the shotgun since the idea is home-, personal defense. I doubt you'll be shooting at anything beyond 25m in the city, unless you were some sort of Evel Antagonist. I would also round it out with a revolver and a bat, an aluminum one preferably.

3.) A well planned EVAC route. Since congestion is a city-dweller's worst nightmare, it would be vital to have multiple routes out of the city planned out, falling back to each one if the previous one went FUBAR.

Anyway, that's just a couple thoughts I had. Feel free to expand upon them, or shoot them down. Or, ignore them completely. I don't mind. ;)

-KS

The Reaper
09-04-2006, 09:30
Rent a storage unit.

The problem as I see it for you city dwellers is going to be the difficulty of trying to isolate yourself, the rapid spread of the disease due to the concentration of the population and international points of entry, the loss of services (no electricity, water, sewer, or even trash disposal), spread of secondary illnesses after the failure of services, inability to acquire food, potable water, etc. (or to live off the land, unless you like gutterwater, rat, and potentially infected pigeons), numerous criminal gangs who will come take what they want or burn your building down if you are too much trouble, the difficulty of evacuating should you decide to do so due to saturated transportation nodes, fuel limitations, breakdown of mass transit, roving criminal elements, scavenging drug addicts who have lost their primary supply source (who do you think was responsible for the attacks and attempts on hospitals after Katrina?), dispersal of the remainder of the city population, etc. This is compounded by the fact that you live in a known extreme danger area from seismic disturbances.

Do you REALLY have to live there? I am sure that it is beautiful, and very trendy, but there is a price to be paid for that.

If you decide to continue living there, you better have a really good plan to evacuate at first notice, ahead of the disease and human wave, and to relocate to an area where you have better odds.

TR

Peregrino
09-04-2006, 09:53
The box looks like it would work. I've seen gas generators made fairly quiet by just digging a hole in the ground and putting plywood over the top and you already have the vent system figured out.

Your article about "box in box" references lead for sound insulation, we used lead lined heavy foam rubber on our logging yarder (V-12 Cummins Engine) to get the noise down to acceptable OSHA standards, also seen it used to make a Beech AT-11 twin engine aircraft(bomber trainer) quieter inside. That stuff could be used on the underside of the plywood top covering the generator in the ground.


Bill - The lead sheathed foam sound insulation sheets are also available from a marine application. IIRC from my sailing days it's sold in kit form to soundproof auxiliary engines on smaller sailboats. The major problem will be heat buildup inside the enclosure - the sailboat aux engines are water cooled. The bilge fan should work very well, just hook it to the 12V outlet on the generator with an in-line switch and turn it on as soon as you start the generator. I like marine appliances. The quality ones are built to survive serious abuse in a salt water environment which exceeds anything I expect them to face in my present circumstances. Anyone planning to include portable 12 volt power systems/appliances in their preparedness plans should seriously consider adding some marine power management books to their library; e.g. "The 12 Volt Bible" and "Living on 12 Volts". FWIW - Peregrino

jatx
09-04-2006, 14:09
I live in downtown San Francisco

I love San Francisco. I would move there in a minute if it had more Texans. :D

Seriously, though, how about keeping a small sailboat somewhere in the Bay? You could keep most of your non-weapons cache aboard and reach it very quickly, via bike or foot if necessary, and then not have to worry about road congestion. There are plenty of nice boats available in the 30' range for under $20,000.

mugwump
09-14-2006, 09:40
Bulk sacks of rice, beans, grits, wheat berries, etc. are cheap, storable foods that have a lot of attractive qualities. The long cooking time, with resulting high fuel use, is not one of them.

I've seen recommendations about Thermos cooking in a couple of the preparedness documents I cited in the pandemic flu thread. They suggest that you purchase large, wide mouth Thermoses. With Thermos cooking, the idea is to get the food to a boil and then put it in the Thermos to continue the cooking process using the residual heat.

This is a poor technique. By transferring the food/water you lose the considerable heat stored in the pot and the Thermos is room temperature to start (unless you waste fuel by prepping it with a hot water flush) thereby initially lowering the temp of anything added to it.

A better technique is the straw box, which many of us learned about in Boy Scouts. The idea is to get the food to a rolling boil in a metal pot which is then taken off the heat and put into a box filled with insulating material. More material is put on top of the pot, the box is closed up, and the food is allowed to cook for several hours on it's own. The advantages are that the heat from the pot is retained and the food is not cooled by the transfer into the Thermos.

The ideal is to find a large styrofoam box such as the kind frozen premium steaks are shipped in. (Push comes to shove, a cardboard box will work OK.) This can be filled with any insulating material you have on hand -- even crumpled newspaper will do nicely. For best results, the insulation should touch the pot on all six sides.

Principles to be kept in mind are these:

* Insulation should cover all six sides of the box.
* The box should be airtight.
* The inner surfaces of the box should be of a heat-reflective material.

There are some adjustments involved in cooking with strawbox cookers:

* Less water should be used since it is not boiled away.
* Less spice in needed since the aroma is not boiled away.
* Cooking must be started earlier to give the food enough time to cook at a lower temperature than over a fire.
* The food should boil for several minutes before being placed in the box. This ensures that all the food is at boiling temperature, not just the water.
* Strawbox cookers work best for large quantities, as small amounts of food have less thermal mass and cool. Preheated stones could always be put in together with the pot to prove the additional thermal mass needed to keep the temperature up over a long period of time.

The Reaper
09-14-2006, 10:01
Looks like we are moving on to water/food/cooking.

Let's deal with water purification first, then storage.

I was holding a bunch of bleach till I saw the pool chlorine light. Great idea, much more compact and suited for long-term storage.

For portable use, I have an MSR Miox. Great device, very compact. Used with a coffee filter or fine mesh strainer to remove the particulates, it provides potable water in almost all circumstances using just salt and power from CR 123 batteries.

Boiling water to purify it is, IMHO, a big waste of fuel, unless you have no other means or unlimited fuel.

Anyone else have any different techniques for making potable water?

TR

Team Sergeant
09-14-2006, 10:06
Bulk sacks of rice, beans, grits, wheat berries, etc. are cheap, storable foods that have a lot of attractive qualities. The long cooking time, with resulting high fuel use, is not one of them.

[/INDENT]

Not a "cook" are you......:rolleyes:

I know little about "wheat berries" but the others you mentioned need only one thing to be consumed, water.
All they need is a long soaking in water to re-hydrate them.

In order to survive one should not mix luxury with necessity. Food is a necessity, hot food is a luxury.;)

TS

mugwump
09-14-2006, 11:50
Not a "cook" are you......:rolleyes:

I know little about "wheat berries" but the others you mentioned need only one thing to be consumed, water.
All they need is a long soaking in water to re-hydrate them.

In order to survive one should not mix luxury with necessity. Food is a necessity, hot food is a luxury.;)

TS

Hey! I'm a good cook! :p

You've already convinced me that I'll have starving urban refugees inside the wire if the flu hits -- at least let me have a hot meal first. Sheesh.

I'll refrain from respondnig further on food because I've jumped the queue twice now in this thread...back to water.

Team Sergeant
09-14-2006, 12:04
Anyone else have any different techniques for making potable water?

TR

I got one of these years ago...... (but now I want a MSR Miox also!;) )

British Berkefeld SS-4

" British Berkefeld is the original world famous ceramic water filter "

British Berkefeld water filters carry on a tradition started by Doulton water filters over 150 years ago! Doulton designed these systems to be used where a reliable source of treated drinking water is unavailable or the drinking water that you have available is of questionable quality. Depending on your needs we have Doulton in-line home water filter systems that are designed to easily install in your existing plumbing or we have British Berkefeld gravity flow models that do not require water pressure or electricity. British Berkefeld makes an excellent camping water filter and it is so efficient that you can actually pour creek water into the system and a short time later you will have good tasting, safe drinking water. How? The pore structure of the cleanable ceramic filters inside both Doulton and British Berkefeld systems are designed to remove very fine particles, cysts and bacteria while leaving the beneficial minerals. These Ceramic filters also have an activated carbon core. This feature allows the filter to reduce chlorine by 95% and also reduces pesticides, herbicides and organic Chemicals. Activated charcoal also removes bad taste and odor making your water taste great even straight from the tap. On our in-line water filter models we added an additional filtering compound that reduces toxic lead and heavy metals sometimes found in municipal water systems. These water filter systems are time tested, reliable and simple to use.

mugwump
09-15-2006, 00:49
Executive Summary: Make sure you follow this tip with beans, especially if you use the strawbox method:

* The food should boil for several minutes before being placed in the box. This ensures that all the food is at boiling temperature, not just the water.

Following this advice will get the beans up to 100C/212F and you'll avoid the problem.


------------------------------------------------

Coincidentally, a Google meander led me from a news report of E. coli in spinach to this tidbit about beans:

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artredkidneybeanpoisoning.html

RED KIDNEY BEAN POISONING

Red Kidney Bean Poisoning is an illness caused by a toxic agent, Phytohaemagglutnin (Kidney Bean Lectin). This toxic agent is found in many species of beans, but it is in highest concentration in red kidney beans (Phaseolus vulgaris).

<snip>

As few as 4 or 5 beans can bring on symptoms. Onset of symptoms varies from between 1 to 3 hours. Onset is usually marked by extreme nausea, followed by vomiting, which may be very severe. Diarrhea develops somewhat later (from one to a few hours), and some persons report abdominal pain. Some persons have been hospitalized, but recovery is usually rapid (3 - 4 h after onset of symptoms) and spontaneous.

The syndrome is usually caused by the ingestion of raw, soaked kidney beans, either alone or in salads or casseroles. As few as four or five raw beans can trigger symptoms. Several outbreaks have been associated with "slow cookers" or crock pots, or in casseroles which had not reached a high enough internal temperature to destroy the glycoprotein lectin. It has been shown that heating to 80 degrees C. may potentiate the toxicity five-fold, so that these beans are more toxic than if eaten raw. In studies of casseroles cooked in slow cookers, internal temperatures often did not exceed 75 degrees C..

All persons, regardless of age or gender, appear to be equally susceptible; the severity is related only to the dose ingested.

No major outbreaks have occurred in the U.S. Outbreaks in the U.K. are far more common, and may be attributed to greater use of dried kidney beans in the U.K., or better physician awareness and reporting.

NOTE: The following procedure has been recommended by the PHLS (Public Health Laboratory Services, Colindale, U.K.) to render kidney, and other, beans safe for consumption:
* Soak in water for at least 5 hours.
* Pour away the water.
* Boil briskly in fresh water for at least 10 minutes.
* Undercooked beans may be more toxic than raw beans.

Kahuku Saint
09-15-2006, 02:35
...scavenging drug addicts who have lost their primary supply source (who do you think was responsible for the attacks and attempts on hospitals after Katrina?) ...

TR

I called New Orleans home for almost eight years so you'll have no argument from me on that subject. It was my initial reaction when they first mentioned the shootings.

My point: given the current state of the global economy (whether or not you agree with it), it seems that we're all destined to live in the cities despite the fact that we all can't. I've spent some time in Southern Illinois, and opportunities are thin on the ground outside of basic service industry jobs or Wal-Mart. It's definitely easy to see why the people are evacuating the Mid-West for the coasts.

And since we're all trying to live in the City, or very close to it, how do we mitigate what amounts to the Second Coming? Would forcing the people to still interact by divvying up the basic necessities (i.e., you take the batteries - I'll take the water) help prevent or slow-down the complete unraveling of social order? Or are we just giving cause for neighbor to murder neighbor in a societal free-for-all?