Be Prepared [Archive] - Page 2 - Professional Soldiers ®

mugwump

09-16-2006, 17:36

This post is aimed at the longer-term need for purified water. This info is in bits and pieces in the panflu thread but is consolidated here. Check out post 128 there for additional cautions and calculations.

I've gotten cross-trained to work our town's backup wells (which I am confident I could do if there is grid power or fuel for the generator) and purification system (now that one I'm less confident about but I'd give it my best shot). If I learned anything in the process it's how brittle the infrastructure is. Best case scenario if the grid goes down: intermittent supplies of water with uncertain quality (1? hour/day, rotating by sector).

So, even if the water comes out of the tap it will have to be purified. If it's coming from a stream, pond, or lake: obviously ditto. Remember, if the tap water is off or sporadic, the odds are good that the sewage treatment systems are buggered as well. Expect raw sewage, waterfowl feces, and other drek to be in the source water.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Purification generally requires two steps: filtration to remove larger pathogens (bacteria, protozoa, cryptosporidium, giardia, etc.) and chlorine to kill the viruses that are too small to be removed by the filter. Note that chlorine will not kill giardia and cryptosporidium -- the filtration step is a necessary part of the process.

So, here's my system:

Procedure: use a cheap, effective, ceramic filter (the same type of filters used in Berkely and Katadyn Camp gravity filtration systems) to filter water. Then use chlorine to purify the water of any viruses that have slipped past the filter. Mix the chlorine solution as needed using dry calcium hypochlorite "pool shock."

Pros: Cheap; no fuel consumed; no labor expended in the purification process (once you hump the water); the system is suitable for long-term storage without component degradation; simple, with no moving parts or consumables; large volumes purified quickly (3-4 gallons per hour, faster than a Berkely/Katadyn gravity filter); light weight; very long usage life span.

Cons: a bit bulky (but then this isn't a backpacking system).

System Components

- Two Rubbermaid "Keepers Rough Tote" 18 gallon size. Around here these are blue or gray in color and semi-rigid. Don't get the clear ones, the plastic is too brittle. In a pinch, any container large enough to hold the ceramic filter will do. These are $3.97 apiece at Lowes right now.

6743

- At least 500 coffee filters from a big-box store, 1000 isn't out of the question. Get the biggest ones you can find. They're cheap.

- One "style A" filter system from Pure Water Products (http://www.pwgazette.com/gravity.htm) with a Doulton Super Sterasyl cartridge. $45
6740

- Strictly Optional: One charcoal filter for each 500 gallons purified plus adapter: Omnipure filter + adapter from Pure Water Products. $22 ($15 per additional filter, the adapter is reusable). Here's the setup w/ the charcoal filter:
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- One pound HTH® SUPER SOCK IT Shock 'N Swim 60% free chlorine by weight. (Be careful, you'll find 45% and 50% available chlorine formulations by the same manufacturer as well -- you don't want those.) This will handle 65,000 gallons of water. $2.99
6741

- One plastic teaspoon.

- One 1.5 ounce shot glass, preferably glass or plastic.

- One 2 gallon container (or just a big plastic container to mix your sanitizing solution and two old one-gallon bleach containers and a funnel to fill them, that's what I ended up doing in my test run).

- One large plastic measuring container (I used a clean 5-gallon bucket with volume marks)

- Battery powered clock (you'll need this for many things if the grid is down)

- One of those plastic "tuff-scrub" sponge-shaped thingies from the dishwashing products aisle.

Procedure

1. Mix up a batch of stock sanitizing solution using the 60% pool shock and water: add one heaping teaspoon to a measured two gallons of water in the clean bucket. Mix until dissolved. Use the funnel to fill the two empty bleach containers. This 2 gallons of 0.86% free chlorine is your stock sanitizing solution. DO NOT DRINK IT. (Add one 1.5 ounce shot glass of this solution to each gallon of impure water and wait 30 minutes.)

2. Put one Tupperware tub on a table top. Lay the assembled ceramic filter (with delivered elbow fitting and plastic tubing attached per instructions) on it's side in the tub. Keep the open end of the tube outside the tub - do not contaminate it with dirty water. Measure whole gallons of dirty water into the tub, one at a time, until the water is only deep enough to cover the filter.

3. Now add one 1.5 ounce shotglass of stock sanitizing solution for each gallon of water you added in step 2. The filter needs to soak the first time you use it. Put a dinner plate or something over it to hold it under the water and let it soak until it doesn't float any more. I suggest you soak it overnight the first time you use it.

(Next day or several hours later when the filter no longer floats)

4. Put the second tub on the floor under the table. Get the free end of the tube attached to the filter in the top tub and suck on it like a straw until you get water (This is why we disinfected the water in the top tub -- you are getting it in your mouth in this step. From now on we'll disinfect after filtering.) Quickly drop the end of the tube into the clean lower tub. You should have started a siphon and the water should continue to flow. If not, try again. If you can't suck any water or the siphon won't stay going you either have an air leak in the system or the filter wasn't soaked long enough.

5. Fill the top tub with more dirty water. Do not disinfect this water (do not add more stock sanitizing solution). Let a full tub go through the filter.

6. When the bottom tub is full, add one shot glass of sanitizing solution to the tub for each gallon it contains. (Yes, we're overdosing a bit as some of the water was already treated in the top tub -- just do it.)

7. Wait 30 minutes and then throw the water out. Yes, that's right, toss it. The first batch is full of ceramic dust from the filter and needs to go. We disinfected it to keep the bottom tub clean.

8. Add more dirty water to the top tub. The directions said adding water to the top tub would re-start the siphon even if it had run dry and to my surprise they were right. When the bottom tub is filled, add one shotglass of stock sanitizing solution per gallon and wait 30 minutes until using.

Notes:
During a filtering run, my plan is to keep the top tub continually filled with dirty water and keep filling Tupperware tubs until I fill four tubs or run out of water (the tubs have tight-fitting lids). But then I have a large supply of water on hand. YMMV.

18 gallons makes for one heavy tub. Put it where you want it and then fill it.

Measure 18 gallons into one of your tubs one gallon at a time and mark the fill line each time. You can repeat the process for each tub or transfer the marks using a rule. You need to know the correct volume to get the right dose of stock solution added.

If the dirty water is particularly nasty, let the particulates settle out before filtering to preserve the filter's life. Or, use the coffee filters to pre-filter the dirty water before you put it in the top tub. You'll have to jerry-rig a container to hold the filter.

If the ceramic filter slows, use the "tuff-scrub" plastic pad to scrub the exterior. This won't hurt the filter and will restore its flow rate.

You can avoid rigamarole if you prep the filter NOW using clean tap water with the proper amount of chlorine solution added (you can use unscented household bleach if you don't want to crack open a pack of pool shock, check the Clorox web site for drops/gal). After soaking the filter and runing a tub of water through it, seal the filter into a Ziplok bag and it will be ready for use. I'll probably run chlorinated water through it every 4-6 months just in case.

Addendum: I use the setup with the charcoal filter cartridge in-line with the ceramic candle. This adds a couple of feet's worth of tubing to the system. If you don't choose to use the charcoal filter your tubing attached to your filter may be too short to extend up the side of the top tub and then down into the bottom tub. You can easily extend the tube length using additional tubing from the hardware store --1/4 inch tubing is a standard size for refrigerator water systems. Get a straight fitting for hooking two lengths together. Whole thing'll cost 3 bucks. TEST YOUR SYSTEM OUT BEFORE YOU NEED IT!

Monsoon65

09-16-2006, 19:34

I think our life support shop started to put a water purification straw in our survival kits. Suppose to strain out all sorts of junk while drinking. I'm flying on Tuesday, so I'll stop over there and find out about them.

I'll also get some info on the systems we use in our 20 man life raft kits.

mugwump

09-17-2006, 06:51

There's an addendum to post 270 "Home Water Purification" in bold at the bottom. I wanted to keep it all in one place.

The Reaper

09-17-2006, 08:41

mug:

Great info, thanks.

Your point is well made that filtration and treatment are both needed to make water potable.

A number of different chemicals can be used to treat the water. We should also be aware that there are other potential contaminants that cannot be removed by treatment alone.

The current spinach scare with E. Coli contamination should point out the routine bacterial threat that we face lurking in the background of our food supply.

There are a number of ways to store potable water in a home, some of which are better suited than others. Used milk or soda bottles are good, but are bulky. Few people have the space to store the 5-10 gallons per day that would be required by a small family. Due to the cost of shipping, 55 gallon drums are not a particularly good solution. Anyone have any other suggestions for how to store a large amount of water safely in the home?

TR

PSM

09-17-2006, 10:06

This is a repost from a few pages back:

The empty 5 liter bladders that boxed wine comes in are refillable. Left in the box they are easily stackable; out of the box they can be frozen and used in ice chests. Also, in the box, they can be grabbed on the way out the door if you are in a hurry.

http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=123724&postcount=80

Pat

Cincinnatus

09-17-2006, 16:56

If you have some warning that a problem is coming, I've seen it suggested that a child's wading pool will hold (depending on the size) as much as sev'l hundred gallons. For some people keeping one on hand and filling it if weather or some forseeable problem threatens may make sense. Not a good long term storage option, but a viable stop gap in some situations.

The Reaper

09-17-2006, 17:41

mugwump

09-17-2006, 19:06

I am thinking bigger than a wading pool and closed from the elements. The military stores water in blivets. This made me look at a commercially available alternative.

We have an unused water bed mattress that will connect directly to a water hose. They can probably be found at yard sales and the like for a few dollars. New mattress bladders are less than $100. I am thinking that rinsed out well to remove any traces of algecide, with a little chlorine added, it will be easily stored in my crawl space under the house and can hold a couple of hundred gallons of water. I could actually store quite a few down there. By my calculations, a Queen mattress should hold over 220 gallons and a King around 300. That should keep a careful family of four in drinking water for more than six weeks.

If I reconnect the hose and locate the running end down hill, I can even have running water.

Has anyone else considered this?

TR

I think a waterbed matress would work fine. Excitable types get the vapors about "non-food-grade" vinyl, but if it was new or rinsed thoroughly it would be fine. I found one reference at least that says it's OK (of course, all the guys selling barrels say you'll die):

"Water beds hold up to 400 gallons, but some water beds contain toxic chemicals that are not fully removed by many purifiers. If you designate a water bed in your home as an emergency resource, drain it yearly and refill it with fresh water containing two ounces of bleach per 120 gallons."

http://www.state.nj.us/njoem/preparedness_foodwater.html

Don't discount the pool idea out of hand -- you can get some serious volumes for reasonable $$ (compared to blue barrels, certainly) if you have a back yard or a garage to put it in. The following run $334 - $488, and that includes filters and ladders etc. that you don't need. You might be able to find a pool without the ancillary stuff. Of course you'll have to add in a "large enough" blue tarp (or some other cover) and a case of pool shock and test strips

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4012473#Features+%26+Specifi cations:

12 feet across x 42 inches deep; holds 2,478 gallons
15 feet across x 42 inches deep; holds 4,131 gallons
18 feet across x 42 inches deep; holds 5,946 gallons

Basically you are adding a pond to your back yard/garage and the water will have to be treated as such, but at least there's a lot of it.

Your circumstances and the event you're planning for will dictate if it's a viable option -- you know what my short-term worry is. If you're likely to be home to set it up, have your other preps complete, and your climate allows, you'll probably have the 2 days warning it will take to set one of these big guys up and fill it.

I could fit a 15 foot pool in my two-car garage -- 4100 gallons is a lot of water, and you'll need it under some circumstances.

My big concern with water requirement estimates is that they don't add in the water you'll need if someone gets sick and you must do lots of laundry. If the panflu breaks out and stays true to current form, there'll be lots of laundry to do -- the current strains hit the gut very hard.

BoyScout

09-18-2006, 21:30

Anybody think about portible bastball goals that use a tank for a weighted base? A good deal of the people I've seen buy them put concrete in them but they are designed to hold water and/or, up to 40 gallons.

Pros: They are descrete, provide one something to do with the kids, they are common, and you can move them around fairly easily.

Cons: They do not hold enough water for long term use, it can be hard to get the water out (two peices of hose and a bulb like what one finds on outboard boat motars and their feul tanks or a pump style purifier, can fix that), they can cost up to $500 dallors.

____________________

TR would having a waterbed heater underneath to keep the water from freezing over with temps getting low in Northern states be a bad idea and waste of electricity?

MtnGoat

09-25-2006, 21:47

I had this emailed to me and thought it should be posted. Some good Info for the home.

http://www.lacetoleather.com/hom.html

Peregrino

09-26-2006, 08:23

I had this emailed to me and thought it should be posted. Some good Info for the home.

http://www.lacetoleather.com/hom.html

MG - Thanks, I fwd'd the link to the wife. (If I keep fanning the embers, I might actually get a spark to ignite.)

Given your current location, I'm guessing that if you could implement the survival strategies/technologies and add a little "redneck engineering" you could raise the local standard of living to at least the 19th century. :p

Be careful and have fun. Peregrino

PSM

09-26-2006, 17:53

MAB32

09-26-2006, 19:24

I've dealt with these people for a few years. Although some of the water storage items may be a bit steep, I think it is a great idea. Especially the bladders that they are selling.

www.colemans.com/industrial.htm

mugwump

09-27-2006, 20:56

I know this thread discusses preparedness for all natural and man-made disasters, but I'll continue in my self-appointed role of resident pandemic preparedness nut...

Your household water requirements will increase at least tenfold if you have a serious flu case in the house. The term "avian flu" evokes images of, well, flu -- maybe bad flu but flu nonetheless. In a percentage of cases (hopefully less than the 20-30% as during the Spanish flu, but its running at 80% now) it will actually be a combination of pneumonia/diarrhea/central nervous system/hemorrhagic fever. Expect multiple bedsheet changes per day and potentially several changes of clothing for caregivers. You'll be dealing with blood, vomit, and feces, all of which will be highly infectious.

You'll need a waste tub for soaking sheets, washcloths, contaminated clothing, etc. in a high-chlorine disinfectant solution that will have to be changed periodically. Laundry wash water will have to be treated prior to use along with water used for scrubbing and cleanup.

Either have a lot of sheets and towels on hand, or plan on increased water consumption (or both).

sf11b_p

09-28-2006, 19:36

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=988668&convertTo=USD

mugwump

10-02-2006, 09:42

A good water treatment faq. (http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/PFSFAQ/Water_TreatmentFAQ-v2.2.html)

A good food storage faq: Prudent Food Storage FAQ pdf (http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/PDF/PFSFAQ4-0.pdf) and HTML (http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/PFSFAQ/PFSFAQ-1.html)

MtnGoat

10-02-2006, 16:17

Given your current location, I'm guessing that if you could implement the survival strategies/technologies and add a little "redneck engineering" you could raise the local standard of living to at least the 19th century. :p
I did the same at home, sent it to my wife and had her bookmark it.

Well, here you'll have to some type of Engineering - southern or Afghainee. Anything really helps.

Just get some water and medical help in some areas and they will open up. Trying to get some of the African water pump "merry-go-round" in a Play Ground set made by my CA guys. That will be really big "sale" here.

Toothpaste and a brush are years away.

Peregrino

10-05-2006, 23:26

The local news is in disaster broadcast mode (preempted all the after midnight shows :boohoo ). Seems a chemical plant in Apex NC just had fire and explosions with subsequent toxic gas cloud requiring the evacuation of 1/2 the town's estimated population (32,000). It's burning so strongly they can't get to it to start combatting the fire. People are already being admitted to local hospitals with respiratory issues. It appears the town is doing the right things with designated shelters, cordons, and forced evacuation (some mention of using busses to facilitate evacuation - NOLA are you taking notes?). Unfortunately it appears that individuals are not as well prepared. We'll have to wait and see what the morning brings. Meantime I'm throwing in some kudos for this thread and it's contributers. If everyone adhered to the principles we've espoused here, there might be some momentary hardship/inconvenience for prepared individuals but that will be mitigated by their degree of preparedness. The unprepared who depend on/expect external relief/support will (get what they deserve?) not pass the time nearly as comfortably. Fortunately I don't think the population of Apex suffers the same social dynamics as NOLA, nor do I expect the incident to last as long - but hopefully it's a wakeup call for those capable of listening. Peregrino

The Reaper

10-06-2006, 08:39

I saw the same news breaking late last night, this morning it is the lead on CNN and FoxNews.

This brings up an important consideration.

If your plan was to remain in place during the disaster, and the situation forced you to evacuate, what would you do if you had anything from 1 minute to 1 day to prepare? Don't forget that looters might visit while you are out.

Do you have a plan and a prioritized list of things to grab on the way out? In many situations, you would be evacuating to a shelter, neighbor's house, or a family member's home, but what would you do if those were full?

A prudent plan would have a checklist of what to load (and what to do), in priority order, and family members would be knowledgable about the plan, their roles and their individual responsibilities.

Clearly, if you were evacuating prior to a disaster which could destroy your home, like a fire, flood, or hurricane, family mementos, photos, and other irreplacable items would be high on the list.

If the disaster were just a temporary evacuation, people would still need the basics that we discuss here.

It might not be a bad idea to get a storage container or three and consider loading it up with the usual camping type gear (bearing in mind the lifting capability of various family members and cubage capacity of the various vehicles), and keep it in an easily accessible place near the vehicles.

Logical things to consider putting in the bug-out kit might be a first aid kit (complementary to the one you should already have in your vehicle, as with most of these items), personal meds for family members, possibly protective masks and gloves, if you have them and anticipate that sort of airborne problem, spare ammo for the weapons you bring with you (and at least one .22LR pistol or rifle), non-lethal weapons, a tent or tarp and sleeping bags (or just have everyone grab theirs from a common closet on the way out), an old blanket or three, a couple of sets per person of old, but servicable clothes, several changes of underwear, a pair of boots per person, bug spray, flashlights or lanterns with spare batteries, butane lighters, fire starting material, a camp stove, if you have one, some bottled water, water bladders and canteens, water purification of your choice, some basic camping type cookware, paper plates, cups, and flatware, storable food (MREs are fine, if your family will eat them, as are freeze dried meals), snack food with extended shelf life, a small shovel or e-tool, some rope, an axe, at least one multitool, like the Leatherman (no Chinese knockoffs), at least one GOOD flashlight per person with spare bulb (if not LED) and batteries, toilet paper, toiletries, and personal hygiene items, cell phones and chargers (especially car chargers), FRS/GMRS or other walkie talkies, with rechargable batteries, a solar panel, at least one whistle per person, a good radio, preferably with shortwave capability, spare batteries, a signal panel, a mirror, flares, an inverter, a small generator, if you have one, spare gas cans and fuel for the stove, a tool set (mostly mechanical and automotive, some carpentry), several cans of fix-a-flat, some fuel conditioner, a tire plug kit, detailed local maps (I recommend the Gazeteers) and adjoining state maps (at least an atlas), a compass or two, a GPS, if you have one, binos, perhaps a bike or two, if you have room, a come-along, a prybar, a chainsaw (if you have space, with mixed gas, spare oil, and a chain file), a good knife per adult, cards, dominos, board games, Game-Boys, laptop computer, etc.

Storing this in containers or in rucks with a combat crossload (or at least bringing a few spare rucks) would be best. This list was not all inclusive, but was just what popped into my head in the last few minutes that would cover a wide variety of emergencies. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Obviously, there needs to be a plan, and everybody needs to know what it is and their role in it. You need to designate a near rally point (like a trusted neighbor's house), and a far rally point (like a grandparent's house) which would be out of the danger zone. A beach house might be a poor idea, due to issues with weather related problems. Everyone needs to have all of the commo plan memorized, like cell numbers, and you need to designate a phone number well out of the area, again, like a parent or grandparent where everyone can call to check in.

Evacuate early, or be prepared for problems, to include impassable evacuation routes (refer to Katrina and Rita evacuations for examples).

Hope this helps. I guess we are done with water discussions. The links are good and should be printed out and kept in a notebook, or at least saved to the hard drive. On to food and cooking.

TR

Peregrino

10-06-2006, 10:32

TR - In light of the news, I'm calling an alibi round for the breathing topic. What is the information on the mask you just played with that you spoke so highly of? Is it rated for military grade threats and VOCs? Seems the primary respiratory threat in this incident is chlorine and VOCs, e.g. pesticides. A quality mask changes an emergency bugout into a deliberate evac. Time is always an important commodity in emergencies and I'll buy more of it wherever I can. Thanx - Peregrino

The Reaper

10-06-2006, 11:23

Can't say how you will find it, but given my previous use of M-17 and M-40s, I was shocked at the comfort and flow under hot and humid conditions.

http://www.scottint.com/downloads/m95-original.pdf

It appears to be reasonably priced as well.

http://safetyproducts-store.stores.yahoo.net/scottm95.html

HTH. I had no idea that Scott was making masks in Finland.

TR

mugwump

10-06-2006, 13:08

This list was not all inclusive, but was just what popped into my head in the last few minutes that would cover a wide variety of emergencies...

Sheesh...great list. The only thing I'd add is a scanner. Peregrino put a bug in my ear about this...can't remember what thread...and I did a lot of research prior to purchasing a good digital trunk-tracker. We had a local weather emergency recently and I was amazed at the amount of info flowing from the police, fire depts., SKYWARN, the power company, state disaster agencies, public service departments, ambulances, flight for life, etc. I'm addicted to this thing. It would be invaluable for getting road closure info, disaster coverage area, etc.

I'm putting together a post for getting the least expensive scanner possible in light of the trunking or conventional systems in use in your area, how to locate frequency and talk group info, etc. I hope to have it ready when we hit comms.

mugwump

10-08-2006, 12:05

Sorry to go out of sequence (again) but I saw something that reminded me of this and I wanted to get it down before I forgot it again. The local Water Dept. guy who I'm cross-trained for mentioned that during a hurricane in the late 60's (Camille?) and again in the early 70's the power was out for quite a spell in the East. The sewage lifting stations were down and the sewer lines filled and backed up into a huge number of houses via toilets, sinks and floor drains. Homes at the bottoms of hills, near the ends of long sewage line runs, or near lift stations were a particular mess. People were digging pits and smashing their sewer lines to drain the drek into their front yards instead of having it come into their homes. Suboptimal.

He recommended an inflatable test ball as a solution if you've got a cleanout port or other access to your sewer line (I checked in my basement and I do). Shove it in, pump it up w/ a bicycle pump, and nothing will get past it. Easily removable and doesn't damage your pipe. Remember it works both ways: don't use your toilet/drains after insertion. They're about $25 - $35 for the usual size.

Link: http://www.accentshopping.com/store/plumbing/testplugscapstoolsaccessories/270008.asp?strReturnUrl=/store/plumbing/testplugscapstoolsaccessories/Default.asp%3E%3E%3EnumPage=

kgoerz

10-08-2006, 15:31

My family lives out in the woods in the middle of our property. So we kind of have a isolation mentality already. I always keep five five gallon water cans full and plenty of canned goods. I have one bag packed with extra cash and important papers with a list of what to grab in case of bugging out. Cell phones, chargers guns.....etc. After reading the latest disaster in N.C. When I get home next month I will give the kids on of those plastic storage containers each with a packing list attached to it. That way they can just go down the list and fill up the box in a few minutes.

x SF med

10-08-2006, 18:58

The Reaper

10-08-2006, 19:12

Here in the Northeast - storing gasoline is now a problem - ETOH causes it to gum rather quickly - (I have to make sure to run the motors on my boat and dinghy to keep the carbs clean if I haven't used them in a couple of weeks) which could cause issues in CARB or near-CARB states. OTOH- ULSD Diesel stores longer and better - I'm glad I own a diesel car (not just fuel storage, but mileage)

Have you tried Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer?

I am thinking about running stored fuel through a filter before using it.

The other problem is that injector are much more delicate than the old carbureted systems and have very low tolerance for gunk.

TR

x SF med

10-09-2006, 06:40

both boat (outboard) engines are carbuerated - the issue is that even with sta-bil, the ETOH gums the nozzles and leaves gunk at the lowest points in the carb, and in the lowest lines in the fuel system - nasty stuff. Even the mechanics hate the new fuel, it creates lots of repetitive work.... What happens is that the4 ETOH evaoprates in the system leaving some of its organic components behind which causes the carbon in the gasoline to gel - not completely unlike cold weather gelling of diesel, but harder to get rid of, heat won't do it, because of the organic recompounding - you need a solvent to break it out.

mugwump

10-11-2006, 09:49

This is "Chapter 9 - Food" from the 1986 update to Cresson H. Kearny's classic Nuclear War Survival Skills: http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p920.htm

It includes an expedient grain "mill", cooking w/ minimal fuel, stored food requirements, vitamins and avoiding deficiency diseases, etc.

Roycroft201

10-16-2006, 18:45

How many times since midnight on Thursday, 12 Oct, did The Reaper's Be Prepared thread flash thru my mind ?

Too many to count.

Anyone who is putting off "until next week", or whenever, to purchase ANY of the items you know you need in case of an unexpected emergency please trust me when I suggest DO NOT PROCRASTINATE ! You never know when an early snowfall (1 - 3 inches predicted) turns into a major storm (some areas received up to 24") of heavy, wet snow that will take down trees and power lines in unprecedented numbers.

How many times did I kick myself during the 3+ days I was without electricity, tap water (the pumping station went down for some of us. It was back up in 24 hours but we still have to boil it.), heat (temps dipped into the low 40's - high 30's at night), contact with the outside world (Did I have enough "D" batteries ? Nooooooooo :mad: ), fully charged cell phone battery (cordless phone needs electricity), cash (ATMs don't work), full tank of gas (Didn't matter when there was a State of Emergency but it is an unnecessary concern, nevertheless. ), etc. etc. ??? Most assuredly I called myself a 'dumb a**' more times than I care to mention.

Of the over 400,000 people without power, it has since been restored to just under 200,000. (Mine was restored late last night).

When neighbors said they weren't prepared, I told them I will be giving them a website addy that has an incredible amount of information. :cool:

I am still kicking myself (but I now have LOTS and LOTS of "D" batteries :rolleyes: ). This lesson was learned the hard way.

RC201
(aka Dumb A**)

x SF med

10-16-2006, 19:00

RC-
Experience is the best teacher. Chalk it up to a learning experience, and go on from here. I'll admit it took more than one trip to the field in winter to get my kit straight (not too much, not too little) and more than one weekend trip on the boat to figure out what was needed and what was a luxury. Now that you've been 'snowed in' you won't forget....

The Reaper

10-16-2006, 19:36

Potpourri for $200 Alex, breaking news drives me off schedule to discuss it. Winter storms and earthquakes are making news. Be prepared or be (un)squared away.

Covering these because they are the topics you mentioned, if you (or our Hawaii contingent) have any more, ask away.

Batteries:

Alkaline "D"s are fine, but rechargeables are better. I like this company http://www.thomas-distributing.com/index.htm especially thier MAHA chargers, and keep a ton of the PowerEx rechargeable AAs on hand. Avoid devices with AAAs if AA versions are available, the smaller AAAs hold only 1/3 the power. If you are not going with rechargeables, the Lithiums are the way to go with long-term storage for high-power demand items. Buy the freshest ones you can and consider a solar panel for the rechargeables. The solar panels can also recharge cell batteries, but once the towers lose battery back-up or generators, you are sunk. The GMRS/FRS radios are great for keeping a channel open with someone in the immediate area. I also recommend a good multi-band radio that gets shortwave. At least one (if not two) flashlights per person are a must. All of those come in AA versions. Standardize as much as you can, plan for flexibility, estimate usage/power requirements and buy batteries accordingly.

Light:

Candles are a much more efficient nightlight, as long as they are the proper kind, used safely and correctly. The people who do not follow those rules burn down a lot of houses in this country every year.

Water:

Once you hear that the storm is coming and think that you may lose water, make sure that you have your camping stove ready and have plenty of fuel. Bear in mind that you can fill the tub to store a lot of water,, the lines in the house can be drained frm the lowest outlet (if you crack a higher tap), and if desperate, you can use the water in the toilet tanks (if you do not use a bowl cleaning product in the tank) and the hot water heater (turn the HWH power off first so that it does not burn up when the electricity is restored.

If you had the filter system mugwump laid out, or a MIOX, you would not have to boil it. Get a filter system, and learn how to use it now. Print out the instructions while you can, and keep them handy.

Warmth:

We are presently running a Kerosene radiant heater we got from Northern Tool for just over $100. http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200316426_200316426.htm The radiant aspect means that it radiates heat from the front, so it can be placed along a wall, unlike the convection heaters. You can feel it in on your body, just like a fireplace. So far, the wife loves it. On nights when the temps drop below freezing, the radiant heater helps take the load off the heat pump, which as you may be aware, has to use electric heating strips when the outdoor temps drop too low. Then, you are buying some very expensive heating. Our stove puts out 10,500 BTUs, which is more than enough to keep the 2000 sf house we live in comfortable in anything above 30 degrees. If it got really cold, you could close doors or tack up the plastic sheeting or tarps to "shrink" the size of your heated space to something you could manage. Our houses are usually too big anyway, and I figure that we could collapse the four of us to one bedroom, the living room, the kitchen, and one bathroom. It burns K-1 kerosene at about 1 gallon per 12 hours. I have not had to burn it for more than 4-6 hours at the time. A five-gallon can of Kerosene should last for 5-10 days if you use it judiciously, or you can buy an extra can per week of anticipated needs. It does require D batteries for the igniter. I would stock an extra wick and an extra igniter, and spare D batteries. The smell is noticeable only when starting or extinguishing the stove, then only for a few minutes. About the only downside is that it is either fully on, or off, there are no intermediate positions. You need to open a window or door if it is too warm, or turn it off for a while. It also produces small amounts of carbon monoxide, which means that if you are going to use it while sleeping, and want to be safe, you should have a good carbon monoxide detector as well. Hell, you should have one of those and a good fire extinguisher or three anyway.

Cash:

If you do not have at least a month's expenses on hand (or as much as you can afford) in cash, you are wrong. You will not lose enough interest on it to miss. Get a fireproof safe or strongbox and bolt it to a structural member. Store the cash in it in small bills and gold or silver coins. The person you are trading with will never have change for a $100 or a $50, trust me.

HTH, if you wish, more than happy to chat about anything else you missed.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

Emergency food and cooking requires (DUH!) storable food, and a heat source.

Stoves:

As mentioned above, there are a number of camping type stoves like the multi-burner Coleman that will do almost as good a job as your range, except for baking. You do need to know how to operate it and to cook on it. The cooking requirements for a bachelor are significantly different from a family of six. Have the right gear for the job. In a pinch, you can use your gas grill (or charcoal, for you purists, but outdoors only) to cook, and you can fix simple meals with a small portable camp stove, like the MSR or Coleman offerings. I prefer a multi-fuel stove to the gas cartridge type due to my usual luck at finding odd items when I really need them. If need be, I can siphon enough gas to cook with for a week. You will not be running your range from the generator, though you could easily use a hotplate, toaster oven, or crockpot. Cooking over an open fire takes a lot of practice to get it right. Don't count on being good at anything beyond Smores and hot dogs unless you have tried it. My bride frowns on ash in her eggs.

Food:

For a day or two, most of us can get by on leftovers and takeout boxes. After that, you better have a plan. There are a couple of routes to select from here, or a mix of them. The high-dollar solution is to go with all freeze-dried, which is also very tasty and requires only hot water. Most cannot afford that for very long. You could lay in MREs, but unless you are getting them from Uncle Sam for free, will be about as expensive as the freeze-dried option. Some people have taken the least expensive approach, which is to buy a year's supply of bulk food. For those unfamiliar with this, it includes staples such as wheat, beans, milk, salt, and honey or sugar. The stuff is inexpensive (except for shipping), but the diet is very monotonous, time intensive to prepare, and you better be accustomed to cooking from scratch like an Amish wife. Many of the plans, when closely examoned, will provide enough calories and nutrients for you to survive for a year, but you will look like a survivor of Dachau or a Size Zero model when the year is up. The other option is to accumulate extra supplies of things that you normally eat, plan and create an inventory control, and rotate stock as required. This is the easiest, the least expensive, and requires no acclimatizing of your family to the taste. For me, I would like to have a week or so of freeze dried or MRE's in case of an evacuation, some staples in case of long term disruption (especially perishables like wheat for flour, dehydrated milk and eggs, canned butter and cheese, canned meat, etc.), and several months of extra pancake mix, pasta, oatmeal, peanut butter, and so forth in tje cupboard. The food can all have an extended shelf life if stored properly. A vaccuum food sealer, bags, canning jars, and a cool basement would do wonders here. The local Mormon Church has a lot of expertise at this as well. Note that freeze-dried suppliers are running a serious backlog due to bird flu preparations, and the bulk food suppliers are having some challenges meeting needs as well. Plan early, and remain flexible without becoming completely limp. Semper Gumby.

Just my .02, YMMV. Anyone else have any thoughts?

TR

The Old Guy

10-16-2006, 20:34

Reaper,

Outstand discussion and input on a subject that many people have just begun to investigate.

A hearty THANK YOU.

The Old Guy

Gypsy

10-16-2006, 20:35

fully charged cell phone battery (cordless phone needs electricity),

Well, TR covered things so comprehensively (thank you Sir!)

The only thing I can think to add is get yourself a regular "old fashioned" phone. I have one (along with cordless and cell) and as long as phone lines are still working you at least have a form of communication...

Roycroft201

10-16-2006, 23:07

TR -

As always, your suggestions are excellent and spot on.

The lesson learned was that we are often lulled into a sense of 'everything is fine' and I can wait until 'next week' or 'pay day' or any one of our many reasons to put off getting everything needed for an unexpected situation.

Having some of the things that have been discussed in this thread was a big help, but missing many other pieces of the plan (not really costly - just important) certainly became evident to me very quickly.

X_sf_ med - I really should know better when it comes to snow storms. I survived the "Blizzard of '77" here. ( I was stranded and ended up staying with nuns in their convent for 3 days.....and I'm not even Catholic ! It was really an experience ........but I found out later that the male teachers, who spent the 3 days in the priests' quarters, had steak, cigars and played poker while those of us ladies in the convent seemed to be going to prayers in the chapel all the time ! ;) )

And Gypsy, you are right about the old fashioned phone. A friend is passing along one of those old "Princess" style phones they still had, in case this happens again.

Let my mistake be a lesson to anyone else with plans to "Be Prepared".....don't procrastinate on completing your entire plan.

Roycroft201

x SF med

10-17-2006, 07:01

[QUOTE=Roycroft201]X_sf_ med - I really should know better when it comes to snow storms. I survived the "Blizzard of '77" here. ( I was stranded and ended up staying with nuns in their convent for 3 days.....and I'm not even Catholic ! It was really an experience ........but I found out later that the male teachers, who spent the 3 days in the priests' quarters, had steak, cigars and played poker while those of us ladies in the convent seemed to be going to prayers in the chapel all the time ! ;) )/QUOTE]

RC- are you admitting that it's good to be a guy? I'd have been much happier eating steak, smoking cigars and playing poker for 3 days - I bet they had scotch and beer too......

Ok, those priests were prepared!!!

Back to the real thread. I need to rotate stock for the stored foodstuffs, and run to the store for a recharger (lots of AA devices, using high output alkalines currently, like TRs recharger idea).

The Reaper

10-17-2006, 08:52

Back to the real thread. I need to rotate stock for the stored foodstuffs, and run to the store for a recharger (lots of AA devices, using high output alkalines currently, like TRs recharger idea).

The rechargable AAs will hold four to five times as much power as an alkaline AA cell, and cost less than two bucks each. I'd call that a pretty good bargain. Having bought cheap Chinese knockoffs and the real deal PowerExs from Thomas Distributing, I can say that you get what you pay for. The only downside is that like any rechargable, they self-discharge over time (3-6 months). All you have to do is recharge them every few months, and you do not have to buy batteries again for a long time. For just over $20, you can get the charger, AC and DC charging cords, four NiMH rechargables of at least 2000 mA, and a battery case to keep them in. OTOH, $20 will get you about a dozen high end DuraCells. If you order the system, get another couple of packs of the 2000-2500 mA batteries, and look for the specials on the site. You can get eight more good rechargables right now for less than $20. The 2700-2900mA batteries bring a premium right now, and aren't that much more powerful. Why go buy the recharger? Let UPS drop it at your door. One stop rechargable shopping.

Good point about rotating food stocks. Time to go check the inventory.

RC, we don't just have to complete the plan, we have to start executing it, especially the long lead time items like training. Things like keeping your car's gas tank at least half-full at all times just requires a change in the way we live. I don't want to be the guy in long lemming lines for gas, ice, bread, eggs, milk, etc. when the disaster strikes. I want to be the one sitting at the house already prepared for it. Anyone who has ever seen the stores in the South when they announce a few flakes of snow are on the way understands this.

Glad to be of assistance.

TR

x SF med

10-17-2006, 09:59

TR-
Not to beat this to death - diesel vehicles (currently the only really affordable ones are VWs right now) are great for escaping. I drive a VW Golf TDi - 90 hp with 165 ftlb low end torque - don't laugh at the horsepower, the car moves, and will crawl itself out of most situations in low gears and steady 'go pedal' pressure. How many others out there get 44 mpg @ 80 mph fully loaded in an automatic? At 'normal' driving speeds I've gotten up to 49.5 mpg. I consistently drive from NJ to NC on one tank of fuel, and can toss in heating fuel, biodiesel, or, if it's warm out, vegetable oil (if you have a saponification kit, you can make your own biodiesel). Low maintenance - oil and filter changes every 10k, fuel filter every 20-30k, air filter at 40k, no tune ups, timing belt/ water pump change at 80k, upgrade to 120k timing belt at first change. This is my rolling sail locker - so most of my gear is in the car - foulies, knives, tools, sleeping bag, clothes, extra shoes and boots.... 95 % of the maintenance can be done with a short list of tools too.

If you want the shizzle for an SUV - the V10 Taureg TDi 4wd is your vehicle. 350 Hp, 550 ftlbs of torque - you can tow an Abrams with this beast. Alas, it only gets about 28 mpg hwy. at about $68K it ain't for the financially faint hearted - but it's sister ship is the Porshe Cayenne (same vehicle!!!) which strts at $80k for the 2wd version with a 6 cyl gas engine.

OK, now back to our regularly scheduled preparedness programming... this was not paid for by VW, but should have been.

The Reaper

10-17-2006, 10:07

Can someone explain to me why non-highway taxed kerosene is running $.30-.50 per gallon more than taxed diesel?

I thought that the reason they put the dye in K-1 was to keep sneaky diesel drivers from using it, but at a HIGHER price than DF, why would you want to?

TR

x SF med

10-17-2006, 10:50

Can someone explain to me why non-highway taxed kerosene is running $.30-.50 per gallon more than taxed diesel?

Can you say home heating season?
Expect diesel to increase by 15-18% over the next month, for some reason the oil companies/refineries will not add more diesel capacity, but will straight crack unleaded gasoline... Kind of a waste as you can still get the 3rd level distillates after the 1st levels (diesel, kero, Aero) have been skimmed. The thermal efficiencies of the cetane scale fuels should be enough to convince most people to use them rather than octane based fuels. Oh, yeah the soot lie - cetane exhausts can be scrubbed, and a good turbo will reburn most of the junk anyway. ULSD is on the way, a biodiesel mix and you gain back the cetane and the lubricity, while losing the soot and reducing the NOx

Europe sold 52% diesel passenger cars this year..... America less than 2%.
The expectation is 55-58% diesel sales in Europe next year. There will be an offering of 10 diesel powered passenger vehicles in the US next year - and none available in CARB states. Of those diesels offered in the US, only 3 are even close to affordable by the common driver - if they can find them.

TR you should not have let me get started on the diesel / cetane / biofuels rant - the general American public is ignorant of the choices the Europeans have had for years. Oh, yes, ignorance implies choice, even if the choice was not made bt you, but for you by the Oil and Auto Industries.

I'm done for now, please don't use the "D" word for a while, I might relapse.

Roguish Lawyer

10-27-2006, 22:24

x SF med

10-28-2006, 08:48

I am not yet prepared, but I am preparing.

I recently read FM 21-76 and determined that it would be a good addition to my survival stash.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed meaningfully to this thread. I have liberally stolen your suggestions in drafting my plan.

Plagarist - I'm gonna sick an Intellectual Property lawyer on you, or worse yet let your fellow counselor, AL, lecture you on IP, plagarism and ethics..... :D

Rmember in CA, you need to buy a used diesel vehicle - must have 7500 mi on the odo and have been titled previously in CA or any non-CARB state.

MAB32

10-28-2006, 11:30

RL and others:

An extremely excellent manual to purchase whenever possible is "SIX WAYS IN & TWELVE WAYS OUT". Written by former and present SERE Instructors who are in the Special Ops community they have written a book that exceeds all expectations on surviving either in the woods or at home.

A second manual that is often called the "motherload" is AFR 64-4 Volume 1. Although very large and heavy at approximately 600+ pages it provides numerous ways to tell direction and location along with detailed instructions on fire building and "walking out".

But hey who needs a manual when we have this thread! Excellent info and allot of knowledge flowing here.:lifter

Keep it going!

x SF med

10-28-2006, 15:31

You could always just buy the entire set of the "Foxfire Books" 23 volumes IIRC - backwoods living.

kgoerz

10-28-2006, 16:59

One thing for security purposes I haven't seen on here. For less the an $100.00 you can buy security web cams. Even wireless ones. I have two one in the house one showing the front of the house. They are easily hidden. I have them set to record up to a week at a time. They record to the web page you set up. So if thieves steal your computer you still have the video. Best feature you can view them anywhere you are as long as you have a web connection. The kits provide free software to set up a web page. Just type in your password and you can see your house while on vacation. Even will alarm you when set off. Got mine at best buy. Search the web there are thousands of packages out there. Stay away from the monthly fee ones. There are plenty for free.

Sacamuelas

10-31-2006, 14:31

The Reaper

11-09-2006, 09:05

Does anyone else have anything to add on preparedness food or food prep?

We have put up a lot of posts since we moved to this topic, but not too many actually dealing with food acquisition, storage, preparation, cooking, etc. under austere conditions.

If we are done with food, we can move on to sanitation, but I think that we have some more that could be done on the emergency food discussion.

Thoughts?

TR

Monsoon65

11-09-2006, 20:17

I was thinking about food acquisition and remembered setting snares in Survival School. They seem like a good idea in an area where there is a lot of small game, but if I remember correctly, you need to set something like 15 or more in order to hope for one to catch something.

For storing, what about drying? I'm thinking along the lines of making beef jerky like they made years ago, not that store-bought kind. I heard it would last a long time like that.

Surf n Turf

11-09-2006, 21:09

Does anyone else have anything to add on preparedness food or food prep?

We have put up a lot of posts since we moved to this topic, but not too many actually dealing with food acquisition, storage, preparation, cooking, etc. under austere conditions.
TR

TR,
One additional on Food ---
We have always kept a one (1) year food supply on hand for the family – mostly bulk food (Plastic pails – Cans, nitrogen sealed) – They are good for about 5 – 7 years if stored at 60 / 70 degrees. So far we have not used them, but have rotated stock . For those item we have not used, When they are near expiration date, I donate them to a local foodbank. I could not find our supplier, but below is an example from a different company .
http://emergency-food-storage-supply.com/

I am curious about civilian MRE type meals (especially entrees – that’s where the calories are). I have purchased several “sample packs” and most are good – Much better than the “C” rations I remember.
What is your opinion about bulk purchase of Civilian MRE’s for long term storage ??

http://www7.mailordercentral.com/longlifefood/products.asp?dept=1025

SnT

The Reaper

11-09-2006, 21:12

I am not exactly a mountain man, but I agree that snares are much more effective, pound for pound, than guns and ammo. They are cheap, and lightweight, and are normally not thought of until well after guns. You can buy excellent ones premade, or make them yourself from wire. Traps are somewhat heavier, but are more durable and will catch heavier game.

I would think that 15-25 snares properly placed in an area with plenty of game would provide meat on a regular basis.

IMHO, the only reasons to jerk meat are if you have more than you can eat before it spoils or you need to travel with it. If that is happening with small game snares, you need to reduce the number of snares. If you get a deer, elk or bison, that should be a good technique for preservation if you do not have refrigeration. Pickling, canning, etc, should also work.

HTH.

TR

Monsoon65

11-15-2006, 16:01

I completely forgot about canning and pickling!!

What about one of those food sealers? I saw at the Bass Pro Shop near me that they have them with a wide variety of bag sizes.

Seems that would work with dry goods (rice, beans, etc). Only have to make sure that vermin doesn't get to it and the bags stay sealed.

I'm at a loss about long term storage of food without a way to freeze it.

MAB32

11-15-2006, 16:15

TR and others,

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I was wondering the same thing about the "food-savers". I don't have the "luxury" of using MRE's as I am deathly allergic to the contents. I could probably make my own pseudo MRE's if those machines do a good job, couldn't I?

The Reaper

11-15-2006, 17:36

Food savers (vaccuum packers) are only for dry goods.

While you can can food with them (especially things that do not seal well in bags, like spaghetti), they are not for anything that cannot be stored at room temp.

You vacuum pack a bag of perishable food, like chicken, ham, beans, etc., in a few days, you will have a bag of very nasty anaerobic bacteria to eat.

The bags are sealed, but are not vermin proof, as noted. Rats will make short order of them and their contents.

HTH.

TR

Peregrino

11-15-2006, 23:27

Okay - after seeing TR's post #315, I went back and reviewed for posts about the current topic "food and cooking". Unfortunately this has been one of our weakest subjects. The only substantive comments have been from Mugwump (#297) with the Nuclear War Survival Skills link and TR's comments (#300) about stoves and food. The subject has also been touched on lightly in posts both here and in other threads. We need to add some more meat (no pun intended) to this topic before moving on to the next subject.

Historically starvation (aggravated by the lack of sanitation [next subject] and the breakdown of medical services) has been the major cause of death in the aftermath of disaster or civil disturbance/war, especially where large percentages of the population have been displaced, or normal food production and distribution chains have been disrupted for extended periods of time. We tend to take food for granted and make assumptions about acquiring/storing it based on American societal experiences dealing with short-term supply disruptions, e.g. hurricanes, blizzards, or other natural disasters where resources from outside the affected area can be mobilized to provide relief relatively quickly. Unfortunately, in a true emergency involving significant portions of the country/world the majority of these assumptions may prove unrealistic or even fatal for the unprepared.

Consider that the average household shops for groceries three to five times a month and may visit convenience stores for incidentals to supplement the basics several times a week. The average grocery store only maintains a three to five day supply of high demand consumables. Vendors deliver perishables e.g. bread, milk, meats, and produce several times a week. Semi-trucks usually arrive at least weekly with the nonperishables. Stop these deliveries, food runs out, and people get hungry. A preparedness expert was once quoted as saying that the savage is only three missed meals away. Recent experience in New Orleans suggests that his assessment might have been optimistic.

Long-term disruptions of the food supply (on the order of nuclear war or – God forbid - pandemic) require a completely different approach if survival is to even be possible. With this preamble in mind, over the next week I will make several contributions to this thread. My goal is not to tell you what or how but to discuss why and provide some food for thought. :munchin FWIW - Peregrino

Monsoon65

11-18-2006, 16:22

Peregrino:

I agree. This is a very weak subject for me. Trying to keep any sort of fresh food for a long period of time without any sort of refrigeration has me scratching my head.

JPH

11-20-2006, 21:35

This is kind of a food topic and kind of not. Although I do enjoy an adult beverage now and again, train has required that I limit this greatly so I just though of this. In a long-term civil unrest situations the barter value of a basic Vodka or Whisky alone might supplement cash if it losses some or all value. Additional if it is truly a long-term situation it is possible that those of use with likeminded approaches will band together in small community and the moral boost of having a nightcap around holidays or other special events might be nice.

What do others think of this? Is it something in moderations to put in the back of the pantry? Sams has good deals on large bottles I am sure. Is this a waste of time?

If I am to far outside the box just delete…

JPH

x SF med

11-20-2006, 22:38

JPH-
In pioneer times - 'potent potables' were part of the 'iron rations' kit, but generally used for medicinal purposes. Your point about the barter value is a good one - but, usable calories are going to be more important in the short term. Then again, the psychological boost of knowing it's there might outweigh the pure luxury stigma. Tough call, if you have to didi the AO, ETOH would be one of the last things I'd take, unless it was to run a stove.

JPH

11-25-2006, 20:34

JPH-
if you have to didi the AO, ETOH would be one of the last things I'd take, unless it was to run a stove.

I agree this would be THE last thing I would load in the jeep… hell I may leave it and IF I had the opportunity I would get it with the other low priority items IF and when I return. And I didn’t even think of it running a stove, very good point there even though it wouldn’t be the hottest or cleanest.

MAB32

11-28-2006, 19:32

OK,

what is the next topic for discussion?:munchin

7624U

11-28-2006, 19:51

Now that you have had something to eat. What are you going to do to keep Clean and wash your cloths ?;)

The Reaper

11-28-2006, 22:32

OK,

what is the next topic for discussion?:munchin

It occurs to me that in a disaster, there are going to be a lot of hungry people from here after the brevity of the food discussion, but if you guys are ready to move on, so be it. The next topic listed was sanitation. That is not just washing clothes, but includes waste disposal (both garbage and bodily waste), body sanitation, personal hygiene, household cleaning (of potentially contaminated materials or patients) with a limited supply of materials, is going to be a real challenge.

Frankly, I wish there was a way to get the 5 gallon buckets or Superpails of hard white wheat, beans, powdered milk, sugar, etc. delivered to the East Coast for less than the cost of the product, but that appears to be a briddge too far. I got a great deal on a hand/electric mill, but seem to be unable to get a good price on delivered things to grind in it. Working on it, but not much success thus far. Has anyone in the mid-Atlantic had success with this problem?

I also have been toying with a vacuum sealer and will soon be using it to can quart jars of dry foods for extended storage. The wife likes the way it vacuum seals bottles of white wine so that they do not go bad in a few days.

I have a few freeze-dried meals and some MREs, but that is only adequate for a few weeks unless you are rich or deployed with a never ending supply of them. It would be acceptable if you knew that you were only going to have to be ready for two to three two-week cycles of limited to no supply before things returned to normal. The problem is that once the crisis is over (assuming that the knuckleheads do not burn, destroy, or loot the fixtures from every store in the area) almost everyone will start to buy excessive amounts of supplies and hoard the food that the stores do manage to get in, further exacerbating the shortages. I have seen this overseas, during disasters in CONUS, and anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line has seen it anytime the weatherman predicts any amount of snow, however slight. I also lack the storage space for a years worth of MREs for a family of four.

A multi-layered system of preparedness is the solution, with stockpiles of regular food, freeze-dried, prepackaged or shelf stable (like MREs), bulk commodities (like the Superpails or dry goods), and as a final resort seeds, traps and snares, a good .22LR, etc. forming a tiered solution-set for dealing with long-term food requirements. You will need the appropriate cooking containers properly suited to you=our Add to it as your budget allows. Don't wait too long to get started.

Like many, I can afford to lose 25 pounds over a month or two. How many want to see their kids losing that kind of weight, or crying themselves to sleep at night as they are hungry and starving? We are only a few days from that possibility at any given time. Look at your preparations, then at your cupboard, and think about it. If every town in the US was like New Orleans after Katrina (minus the flooding), where do you think the help will come from? Sad fact: It probably isn't coming. You need to be prepared to live for as long as you can with what you have, for several months or more.

Be prepared or be sorry when it is too late.

TR

jasonglh

11-28-2006, 22:55

It is my understanding that the shelf life of properly made summer sausage is a long time but internet searching turns up a variety of answers. I'm pretty sure that storeed in a cool dry place like hanging it under my stairs it would be fine for the winter. Would vacuum sealing it add to the shelf life or harm the sausage by not allowing it to breath? Normally I cut them in half and freeze until I want to get more out.

Reason I ask is 1 doe dropped off at the Amish village makes an enormous amount of summer sausage for very little cost. The jerky is $3.75 per lb but like wise has a very long shelf life stored in a brown paper bag. Since in KY I can kill 4 deer per season I could be up to my ears in summer sausage rather cheaply with a never ending supply of friends who would like to have some. Not to mention all the deployed troops I like to send it out to.

As far as fresh meat goes I seem to have a never ending supply of squirrels here at my house. :D

HOLLiS

11-28-2006, 22:59

I found this site some time back. They carry dried food stuff and appliances.

www.pleasanthillgrain.com/

Because we live rural, we are probably good for 60 days on food. I have been adding to the food stock, food with very long shelf life to add to that time limit.

One aspect of being able to stock food, is that we can take advantages of sales and over the long run we cut our food cost down by at least 30%.

Other aspect I have been looking at is setting up the homestead to be more self sufficient.

MAB32

11-29-2006, 15:43

I was told years ago by someone in the "business" of canned and deydrated foods on how to "do it yourself" food storage using buckets that have sealing lids. He told me that you can do this for any of the grains and beans.

Buy them at bulk from a warhouse club. By the buckets at oher places on the internet. Then go out and buy dry ice. He advised to fill the bucket to 4/5's full with say lima beans. He said to then take an amount (the amount will depend on the bucket size) of dry ice and place it on top of the the beans and cover the beans with a lid, leaving enough space for the oxygen to purge. Check it frequently and when the dry ice is almost gone, you seal the bucket. He stated that the CO2 will drop lower than the oxygen and force it out of the bucket. I suppose you could also do this with Nitrogen and using Mylar instead of the buckets. Maybe use the Mylar first then place them in the bucket(s). He also told me that this process will remove most if not all of the moisture too.

I am not sure if this would work right or not. Would anybody know for sure?

By the way if this has been discussed here before PLEASE forgive me. This thread is, well, HUMUNGUS and I didn't take the proper time to go back and re-read. :eek:

My family me excluded, can eat ordinary MRE's if need be so I should probably stock up on a few more cases. That and canned meats and potatoes. I have been sorting my items for that "emergency" and came across two cases of the "Cold Rations". The contents don't look to be that bad and actually sound like they'd be pleasing to eat in an "emergency". I also found two(2) boxes of "HOOAH" Bars that I didn't know I had either. By the way, are these of any value nutritionally and storage wise?

I too could stand to loose 25+ pounds, but it would just kill me to see my family starve. That on top of the thought of what I could become when pushed to desperation in order to feed them. :(

Pete

11-29-2006, 16:04

....Then go out and buy dry ice. He advised to fill the bucket to 4/5's full with say lima beans.... :(

Check this site about O2 absorbers, Diatomaceous earth, Mylar bags, 6 gallon pails, lids, etc. Some good info to nose around in.

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/buckets.htm

12-18 gallons of rice is cheap and would stretch other foods a loooong way.

Pete

brianksain

11-30-2006, 08:20

Great thread here. I was on the ground in the aftermath of RITA.

What fun.

Here is a picture of Holly Beach Louisiana just across the river from us.

http://i14.tinypic.com/4cw7eat.jpg

The info here is solid.

Thanks.

MAB32

11-30-2006, 11:20

Pete thanks, that is what I am looking for. I mix rice with Chilli, lima beans, chicken broth, hamburger, soups, etc., etc. I guess I should go out and but a "rice" Boat!:D I am afraid to tell you how much Rice I go through in a weeks period. Bet you can't guess it?

Broaodsword2004, the only problem with this is that it means allot more liquid intake then would be possible during a disaster. Just my HO.

The Reaper

12-01-2006, 21:57

Anyone here in the weather affected portion of the country right now?

Hope you were ready and up to date with your plans and prep.

Let us know how you fared, as soon as you can.

For bulk storage of food, the Superpails with the Gamma screw on replacement lids and sealed Mylar liners with oxygen absorbers are the best way to go for longer term storage.

TR

Gypsy

12-01-2006, 22:55

Well Chicago didn't have it as bad as some folks in the midwest, at least in my particular suburb. First the freezing rain (with thunder!) then we got about 7 of the 12" of snow they predicted; up north and west of me they had a foot or better. In advance I stocked up on food, water, a bit of cash on hand, cell phone charged up and had candles etc in case I lost power. Blanket, extra gloves, scarf etc in the car just in case. I only drive 1 mile to work now, but hey better to have this stuff on hand at all times anyway.

Streets weren't plowed very well so it was slow going to work this morning but I allowed extra time and made it there in one piece. I did manage to get stuck in my apartment complex lot as they didn't bother to plow, (and when they do it's not the best job) but 3 burly guys got me squared away. Probably more of a selfish motive on their part seeing as I was blocking their way out. :D

Then there was the guy who somehow got hung up on the RR tracks across from my building...saw that and took another route. (Yes he eventually made it across the tracks before a train came through)

The Reaper

12-01-2006, 23:03

Glad to hear that you are okay.

I would be very careful with the candles and would consider a lantern or some less dangerous illumination system. Consider keeping an LED flashlight handy for noises in the night and get a Photon MicroLight for your keychain or put one on a retractable security badge reel for your purse.

Be safe!

TR

Gypsy

12-01-2006, 23:12

Thanks TR! Roger on the candles. I do have a couple of good strong flashlights, (2 is one and 1 is none :D ) batteries and a micro on the key chain which I love. Good idea for the lantern though, much safer.

I think adding a shovel is top of the list tomorrow. Had one and I think it got lost in my move. Too much "black ice" on the roads yet tonight so I came home straight away instead of stopping for one.

pegasus

12-01-2006, 23:25

Gypsy

Don't forget to carry a bag of salt or sand in the trunk.

A

Gypsy

12-01-2006, 23:33

Oh yes, good point A. I do have a bag of salt in the trunk.

JPH

12-02-2006, 11:10

Down in SW Missouri we made out ok, or at lest my loved ones and myself. We had the ice then snow mix which is making it hard for the state and city to clear but we are fine.

When the info hit me that this was going to be for real I felt the need to “run around” and get ready but I guess a mix of this thread and my own preparations and lifestyle made this “running around” pointless. I was thinking of tons of things “I should get read”, but every time I when to check the stock of this or the placement of that… it was already there, so I went to get just a few basics, gas and bread… ended up only needing 4.5 gallons or so, and that was filling up to the top of the fill tube.

Like I said we didn’t fine our selves snowed in completely or anything, but I think we would have been fine.

We did loss power for a few hours at the girlfriends apartment, but I hung some LED micro lights that have click on buttons, not the ones you have to hold in your teeth, from the ceiling in the living room and we were GTG.

Thanks everyone for the info in this thread, lets keep it alive so we can all learn from each other before one of us or all of us really need it.

JPH

The Reaper

12-02-2006, 13:06

We have touched on this before, but it bears repeating.

You have to do a good analysis of what your threats are with respect to likelihood and severity and make plans accordingly.

Location is one major factor. If you are living in So Cal, a wind driven event is unlikely. In South Florida, an earthquake is pretty low on the list to be concerned about.

Seasonal events are another. This time of year, a winter weather disaster is much more likely than a hurricane or tornado.

If I lived in the UP of Michigan, I would be a lot more concerned right now about shelter and warmth than if I lived in Arizona, where potable water might be a higher priority.

Never forget that among the most likely and catastrophic disasters are manmade, like house fires, car accidents, crime, and health events like heart attacks. They are much more likely than the TEOTWAWKI scenarios. There is little better use of your time in preparing for disasters than a good assessment (followed by miitigation or appropriate training) of your fire risk, driving skills, vehicles, and their maintenance, crime prevention posture (the cops will normally do an assessment of your home for free), and taking care of your health and meds, to include taking CPR, PHTLS, or TCCC training.

You should not acquire firearms for defense unless you can honestly state that you are willing to take another human's life to save your own or another's. If you are, don't just collect them, learn to use them effectively. You would be much better off with one firearm that you use well than a closet full but are a threat to yourself and others with them. I would much rather have a neighbor hitting what he was aiming at than dumping a mag out the window at noises in the night. If you are not willing to use them, better not to have them around to be used on you.

Those who have experienced a disaster, lost power, or been stranded (even in an airport) should feel free to chime in with what was good and bad about their plans, preparations, and gear. It could be very beneficial to someone else.

TR

jasonglh

12-02-2006, 16:24

CPR, PHTLS, or TCCC training.

I knew what CPR and PHTLS stood for (Prehospital Trauma Life Support)

I believe PHTLS is for advanced practice EMTs and EMT-Ps and that BTLS (Basic Trauma Life Support) is the entry level class for regular EMT's and First Responders.

I will admit I had to google what the last class was:

Tactical Combat Casualty Care

MAB32

12-08-2006, 19:57

Anybody have anymore advice, information, experiences, etc., etc? This thread should not die.

The Reaper

12-08-2006, 20:44

Anybody have anymore advice, information, experiences, etc., etc? This thread should not die.

Got a ton of it, but I am tired of being the only one contributing.

Others need to step up and offer their opinions.

If Mr. Kim had been a reader of this thread, I doubt he would have gotten lost, or died.

TR

Monsoon65

12-08-2006, 21:46

If Mr. Kim had been a reader of this thread, I doubt he would have gotten lost, or died.

TR:

I was talking to my girlfriend about Mr Kim this afternoon and mentioned this very thread to her with the same comment. He'd have had a fighting chance if he read a tenth of the information posted here.

I'm going to see if I can come up with some info on how to keep anything fresh long term; that's what's got me stumped at this time.

PSM

12-08-2006, 22:01

I’ll step up and contribute to the emergency/survival ration question, but it took time to build my bunker. Fruitcake. (It is that time of year.)

I’m serious, but I hear the distant thump of incoming indirect so I’m defilade.

Pat, out!

brownapple

12-09-2006, 00:21

It occurs to me that in a disaster, there are going to be a lot of hungry people from here after the brevity of the food discussion, but if you guys are ready to move on, so be it. The next topic listed was sanitation. That is not just washing clothes, but includes waste disposal (both garbage and bodily waste), body sanitation, personal hygiene, household cleaning (of potentially contaminated materials or patients) with a limited supply of materials, is going to be a real challenge.

Frankly, I wish there was a way to get the 5 gallon buckets or Superpails of hard white wheat, beans, powdered milk, sugar, etc. delivered to the East Coast for less than the cost of the product, but that appears to be a briddge too far. I got a great deal on a hand/electric mill, but seem to be unable to get a good price on delivered things to grind in it. Working on it, but not much success thus far. Has anyone in the mid-Atlantic had success with this problem?

I also have been toying with a vacuum sealer and will soon be using it to can quart jars of dry foods for extended storage. The wife likes the way it vacuum seals bottles of white wine so that they do not go bad in a few days.

I have a few freeze-dried meals and some MREs, but that is only adequate for a few weeks unless you are rich or deployed with a never ending supply of them. It would be acceptable if you knew that you were only going to have to be ready for two to three two-week cycles of limited to no supply before things returned to normal. The problem is that once the crisis is over (assuming that the knuckleheads do not burn, destroy, or loot the fixtures from every store in the area) almost everyone will start to buy excessive amounts of supplies and hoard the food that the stores do manage to get in, further exacerbating the shortages. I have seen this overseas, during disasters in CONUS, and anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line has seen it anytime the weatherman predicts any amount of snow, however slight. I also lack the storage space for a years worth of MREs for a family of four.

A multi-layered system of preparedness is the solution, with stockpiles of regular food, freeze-dried, prepackaged or shelf stable (like MREs), bulk commodities (like the Superpails or dry goods), and as a final resort seeds, traps and snares, a good .22LR, etc. forming a tiered solution-set for dealing with long-term food requirements. You will need the appropriate cooking containers properly suited to you=our Add to it as your budget allows. Don't wait too long to get started.

Like many, I can afford to lose 25 pounds over a month or two. How many want to see their kids losing that kind of weight, or crying themselves to sleep at night as they are hungry and starving? We are only a few days from that possibility at any given time. Look at your preparations, then at your cupboard, and think about it. If every town in the US was like New Orleans after Katrina (minus the flooding), where do you think the help will come from? Sad fact: It probably isn't coming. You need to be prepared to live for as long as you can with what you have, for several months or more.

Be prepared or be sorry when it is too late.

TR

I'm going to address this question from my personal situation. Obviously, that won't work for all, but it may give some ideas of alternatives that are appropriate for others.

In High School and College, I worked summers for a local farmer who raised corn, soybeans, had some chickens and some pigs (the latter for his family's consumption, not for sale) and some milk cows. For all intensive purposes, the farm had the capability to be self-sufficient if necessary (or at least far more so than most), and I had developed skills that would hopefully make me an asset to the owner of that farm.

Since that time, each time I have lived somewhere (except for my time in the service), I have looked for a similar situation within possible travel distance, somewhere that sustenance farming is possible and where I could be an asset to the people who hold the land (possibly helping them to hold the land).

My current situation makes that easier. Most of Thailand is still rural and most farms are still arranged as sustenance plus (meaning they provide the needs for sustenance of their owners, and sell the surplus in one crop, usually rice). My in-laws own a very large farm that operates in this manner. They grow rice and corn for sale, but also have various fruit trees, cows, water buffalo, dogs, pigs, chickens and even raise shrimp and fish for their own use. I can and have been useful to them in dealing with the corn, cows and dogs... and should the worst sort of collapse occur, hopefully could be of help in defending the farm and its products.

Preparation can be more than physical preparation, it can also be cultivating relationships and allies that could make a difference in hard times.

Team Sergeant

12-09-2006, 08:24

Anybody have anymore advice, information, experiences, etc., etc? This thread should not die.

Then let's break it up by theme. Such as Be Prepared for:

Be Prepared for lost alone while hunting.
Be Prepared: Lost in auto with family. Lost in cold, wet temperate forest, lost in hot dry desert, lost in snow, etc etc.

I'm sure everyone can think of a situation they'd like to know about. Ask and we'll chat about each and every one.

We can also start a forum such as "Be Prepared" with sub topics.

Thoughts?

TS

Pete

12-09-2006, 09:12

I see the two issues as going hand in hand.

Prepared is looking ahead and planning for potential problems while fieldcraft is the ability to put the preparations into action.

As with Mr Kim, a small get-away bag in the trunk of the car that contained a small tarp/plastic sheet, some foil emergency blankets, one surplus wool blend blanket, candles, matches, soup mixes, small pot, signal mirror, road flares and a few odds and ends to fill up a gym size bag would have helped their situation.

They would have been able to move out of the car and set up a make-do shelter under the small trees. This would have saved the gas and tires allowing them to drive out when the snow had melted. If you notice from the pictures, the roads were almost clear and melting fast when the car was found.

Pete

Monsoon65

12-13-2006, 16:32

The Reaper

12-13-2006, 20:29

"Frankly, I wish there was a way to get the 5 gallon buckets or Superpails of hard white wheat, beans, powdered milk, sugar, etc"

Would it be too expensive to make something like that yourself?

I was thinking about this over the weekend. How about vacuum bagging rice (for example). Several bags of a certain amount that you think you'll need. Place that all in a five gallon bucket and seal that.

When you have to open the bucket, it's all pre-packaged and ready to go. Maybe if you can't reseal the bags, you can have a small container to put the loose food into for use.

I've been looking into vacuum sealers for a while now. I think they'd be a nice addition for storing food.

I have a vacuum sealer and some five gallon buckets, and know where to get oxygen absorbers. I also understand that local LDS churches have canneries and let outsiders use them when they do not need them.

The problem is that you have to have the stuff that you are going to seal on hand.

Since I am not making powdered milk, or granulated sugar, or processed hard white wheat, or dried pintos, you still have to get them shipped to you, which might as well be in the final packed configuration. Shipping charges are horrendous. The alternative is that I understand if you buty a minimum amount, they periodically send trucks out on the circuit route for semi-local deliveries, but the chearges are only reduced somewhat, and am not able to fill half of my garage with bulk food.

Anything that you can get in bulk locally could be packed as you suggest fairly easily, packing materials (buckets, bags, absorbers, etc.) and instructions are available online.

I suppose that you could configure buckets with a variety of staples configured as you desire (making acquisition easier as well), but I have not seen that done before. For maximum shelf life, the products still need to be kept in a cool, climate controlled environment, like a basement.

Good thinking though.

TR

Pete

12-13-2006, 21:27

The Reaper

12-13-2006, 21:53

Just something to remember when vacuum sealing. Once you suck it down it will be as hard as a rock.

Bulk storage of one mylar bag and a 6 gal. bucket will fill just about every square inch of space. A number of smaller irregular vacuum sealed bags would fill the same space but have less volume due to voids.

The technique used should be tailored to the individual's needs.

Pete

Who vacuum sealed many a cloth item for a sub-surface swim using plastic bags and a boat foot pump.

Pete:

Roger that.

Sharp or pointed items (like grain) will puncture most plastic bags, even without vacuum packing, that is why they use a good quality Mylar bag for vacuum packing bulk food inside the buckets.

TR

brownapple

12-14-2006, 07:59

mugwump

12-14-2006, 09:10

I have no idea if this will work with other grains (it does work with rice and dry pasta) but the following is how Thai farmers store rice long-term for their own use.

Take a lidded plastic garbage can.

Fill it 80% full (approximately) with rice grain.

Add enough chili-peppers to cover half of the remaining space.

Stir the chili peppers into the rice (so they are fairly uniformly dispersed throughout the container).

But the top on.

The chili-pepper keeps both pests that would eat the rice and bacteria away.

It works. Extraordinarily well. No requirement for vacuum. Remove the peppers from scoops of rice taken out for preparation and use for seasoning.

Thanks for this! Really useful info, and given the current immigration situation bulk supplies of peppers are available at the local supermercado. I assume the really hot ones are used?

If you have a big chest freezer (I don't) I've heard that freezing sacks of rice/grain for 3 days prior to putting into mylar bag/bucket also works well. Kills all the eggs. Of course, the dry ice/oxygen absorber/nitrogen methods to be found all over the net are reputed to work well.

Reaper, I was in the same boat as you regarding bulk grains and shipping. I eventually found bulk supplies of legumes, dent corn, wheat, amaranth, etc. at a local business that supplies the restaurant trade with "premium" product. They also carry morels, truffles, blue corn for $12 appetizers, etc. While the price was probably double fair market value, the fact that there was no shipping made it a screaming bargain compared to the Walton Feed/Emergency Essential route. And the product was beautiful, I have to admit. Clean, dry, no broken grains, etc. Still had to be put up in mylar/buckets.

It's also worth a shot calling the LDS chapter and inquiring about getting in on a bulk buy. Food co-ops often have bulk product, there's a state list here (http://63.134.236.176/jim/food.coop.html#north_carolina). Organic food stores are sometimes a good resource.

I've been away in Singapore. The people I worked with represent a mirror image of the average American: they are all prepping like mad, even given the challenge most face with small living spaces. Many Indonesians commute to S'pore (on cheap charter flights) to work as domestics, service workers, etc. The Singaporeans know they are on the front lines if a pandemic pops up in Indonesia.

mugwump

12-14-2006, 10:13

Regarding bulk food purchases:

It's a really good idea to dig up recipes on the Internet and print them out now. You'll identify the additional ingredients needed to turn the bulk product into edible food and you'll be forced to think about cooking/baking requirements. Team Sergeant will parch his corn on a heated flat rock and choke it down with agave juice, but I'm hoping for a better menu. ;)

We have a mix of canned food that we try to rotate (unsuccessfully in most cases), Mountain House (this was a freebie) and bulk rice, corn, hard red wheat, soft white wheat, legumes, and pasta. I plan on stretching the canned food and the Mountain House by serving it over rice and beans (a big single-serving can of Progresso soup poured over four cups of rice/one cup of beans is a filling meal for four, and certainly better than the noodles and ketchup I've eaten for weeks at a time :) ).

Now, I make a mean loaf of crusty peasant bread, and I have the ingredients to make it, but I think it would be foolish to count on my oven being available in any serious crisis. Recipes for wheat tortillas, Indian Roti and Chapattis, and other unleavened flat breads are all over the Internet and they can be cooked using a cast iron skillet over an open fire. You do have a cast iron skillet and dutch oven?

Corn bread, polenta, hasty pudding, and other recipes for using ground dent corn are also all over the place. Corn needs to be soaked in a lye solution (wood ashes in water is the traditional method) to make the niacin in corn nutritionally available (as in grits) but just grinding it makes a really tasty cornmeal that has dozens of uses. Those cowboys ate cornbread and beans for a reason: as with beans and rice, corn and rice in combination has all the essential amino acids.

Grinding. You can sprout your grains or simply boil them into a mush but to really make anything tasty out of them you'll need to grind them. Manual grain mills don't come cheap. In a pinch, you can get three lengths of black pipe (the kind that carries residential natural gas) and wire them together side-by-side into a single triangular length. Open both ends of big coffee can, place it on a concrete surface, and fill 1/3 with grain. Drop the pipe into the can. Repeat a gillion times. I prefer a mill and I'll reluctantly say I have the Country Living Mill (http://waltonfeed.com/self/grind5.html#family). It's not the Cadillac of mills, but it's reasonably priced compared to the others and it has Cadillac performance. As noted in the link, the mill is mostly plastic, but it's German plastic and this little mill has a rabid following if you do some research. It's reputed to hold up well. YMMV.

Finally, cooking oil. Oil and shortening will provide many essential nutrients and calories in an extended emergency. I have several large cans of olive oil (cost a bomb) and it's reputed to last virtually forever if left unopened in the can in a cool place. Cooking oil has the shortest shelf life of any stored food - I can't get a straight answer on this but I hear 6 months to a year. Canned Crisco can be stored for a coupla years, I've heard. But at the first hint of trouble, I'll be finishing my preps by getting several of those bulk jugs of canola oil used by turkey fryers.

Don't forget salt and vitamins.

Monsoon65

12-14-2006, 15:02

Don't forget salt and vitamins.

Great info as usual.

I was thinking about this today. You can survive on plain, boiled rice, but you're not going to be having a good time doing it. Salt, spices, etc will really go a long way in having a tasty meal.

And vitamins will help where you might be lacking. What's the usual shelf-life of a normal multi-vitamin??

The Reaper

12-14-2006, 15:46

Manual grain mills don't come cheap.

I have a Family Grain Mill.

It comes hand powered or electric. The hand version can be found for less than $100, delivered. It is durable, reliable, and does a good, if slightly coarse job.

The Country Living Mill is a Cadillac, IMHO.

TR

MAB32

12-14-2006, 15:57

Well guys, are we going to divide up the "preparedness" into sections as TS stated?:munchin

Gypsy

12-14-2006, 19:30

And vitamins will help where you might be lacking. What's the usual shelf-life of a normal multi-vitamin??

Generally I believe it's approximately 1-2 years, (based on when I last bought mine and the expiration date on the bottle) and they should be stored in a cool, dry place.

The Reaper

12-14-2006, 19:52

Meds, food, and batteries will keep well beyond their shelf life if refrigerated (but not necessarily if frozen).

Most will still have some effect remaining, but meds are a real tricky area.

TR

MAB32

12-14-2006, 19:55

Speaking of meds. Isn't Tetracycline one of the meds that is a no-no after it expires? Something about kidney damage?

JPH

12-14-2006, 20:12

Just a bit off subject…

Just an observation, this is going to have to be reorganized in some form after we are done here, and maybe even available in a print form with a good index. If we wrap things up before I take off for selection and all that, I have a friend in the printing business that might help…. But this in not something to rush, and it may have to be something that we as a forum do much further down the line.

Additionally it could be a good source of income for both this forum and a worthy cause like the Warrior Foundation, or the like…

Just my 0.02

JPH

mugwump

12-14-2006, 21:37

Speaking of meds. Isn't Tetracycline one of the meds that is a no-no after it expires? Something about kidney damage?

You will still find this all over the Internet and your family doc will use it as a scare tactic for not using drugs past their expiry date, but it's an urban legend. Forty years ago, there was exactly one case of irreversible kidney damage due to out-of-date tetracycline, and that was due to an "inert" ingredient that combined with the TC and caused the problem. The formulation was changed and the problem disappeared.

As TR said, most drugs are perfectly good long after their expiry date has passed. The Pentagon instituted a series of studies, and then a program called Shelf Life Extension Program (SLEP) that has saved tens, maybe hundreds, of millions of dollars by dispensing drugs after their expiry. I think there's a database online somewhere (Google SLEP) detailing the results of the studies. You can look up individual drugs.

Note this extended life is not true across the board: nitroglycerin and other drugs lose potency very quickly. But most blood pressure pills, antibiotics, antivirals (incl. Tamiflu) can be nearly 100% potent ten years after expiry.

mugwump

12-14-2006, 21:51

Great info as usual.

I was thinking about this today. You can survive on plain, boiled rice, but you're not going to be having a good time doing it. Salt, spices, etc will really go a long way in having a tasty meal.

Amen. That's why I like Greenhat's tip regarding chiles in the rice. Dehydrated onions/green peppers/mushrooms, bullion, hot sauce, worsteshire sauce, spices, etc. would really make a difference. This is one place having a dehydrator and a vacuum sealer really shines. A tip though: if you dehydrate diced onions make sure you do it outside. Lesson learned.

brownapple

12-15-2006, 05:21

Thanks for this! Really useful info, and given the current immigration situation bulk supplies of peppers are available at the local supermercado. I assume the really hot ones are used?

What the Thais call "prik". Small, red and very spicy.

Roguish Lawyer

01-02-2007, 19:35

We just went two days without running water. Excellent test of our emergency water supplies!

PSM

01-03-2007, 21:26

We just went two days without running water. Excellent test of our emergency water supplies!

AAR please.

Pat

mugwump

01-13-2007, 08:50

The site Warrifles.com has a guy who organizes group buys of case lots of Mountain House at cost + 5%. Six #10 cans of Beef Stroganoff sell for $65 vs. the $117 to $150 elsewhere. Purchases over $500 get free drop-shipping directly from Mountain House. It's the ninth buy and customers appear happy. They have single, double and quad pouches, #10 cans, and limited quantities of unadvertised product like vacuum-dried pork chops. They carry pretty much the whole Mtn Hs line. They don't split cases. The buy ends on Friday Jan 19.

Here's the site:

http://www.warrifles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33873

I have no affiliation, nor does ps.com.

catd11r

01-16-2007, 20:15

I participated in one of the Mountain House buys, and was content with the prices and delivery. Broadsword is the gentleman who handles the bulk buys on Warrifles.

jasonglh

01-18-2007, 23:25

Lowes has heaters and such on clearance already. I picked up a propane Reddy Heater that should be big enough to handle my whole house if needed for $89. It can go up to 135k btu and heats 2900 sq ft.

Now I just need to figure out how to stockpile some propane appropriately. I already have a couple of 20lb tanks but would need something much bigger for a serious power outage in the winter. If I wanted to store a couple of 100lb tanks would the propane at some point go bad? My Google searches only turned up the fact the tanks are rated for a 12 year life span but nothing on the propane itself.

JGarcia

01-19-2007, 20:48

To quote Hank Hill, "Propane and Propane accessories are nothin to be messing around with.":D I think the tanks have to be inspected every 5 years, I don't believe its good to keep them full any longer than that. Propane is quite expensive too. I think a diesel burning or kerosene burning would be better, cuts down on the different kinds of fuel you need to have on hand. But thats my unprofessional opinion - take it with a grain of salt.

jasonglh

01-21-2007, 19:16

The Reaper

01-21-2007, 20:13

Actually I have a Reddy Heater that runs on kerosene/diesel fuel but running it in the house with my family would not be an option as the fumes are just too much for my asthma in a closed space. I gave the propane version a test run last night with mixed results but now I will learn and be better prepared. The unit I bought will run on low setting only on a 20lb propane tank but needs a minimum of 40lbs to run on the highest setting of 135k btu. Lesson learned will check with the local propane place Monday about getting large tank. Its only a matter of time until another nasty ice storm knocks out power so I hope to be ready.

On another front I have replaced many of my spotlights with the compact fluorescent version from Lowe's that uses only 23w vs 75w. Funny thing is those suckers are brighter than the 150w halogens I had been running but do require a full minute to get up to max lumen's at 30F. Hopefully having these bulbs will reduce the drain on my generator should the need arise to run the whole house.

Do NOT hook your generator into your panel for the entire house without having a competent electrician install a switch.

If you do, you will energize the lines outside your house as well, endangering utility workers and putting a huge load on your genset.

I would not want to be the only house in the neighborhood with outside lights on, regardless, unless you are looking for company.

My recommendation is to add a second box for the circuits you need to power, or to run extension cords from the generator to the items you wish to use.

If you are in a cold weather survival situation, you should probably consider closing down your living space to the room or two you really need to live in rather than trying to heat your entire house.

We are using a radiant kerosene heater when the temps drop below 40, and the heating bills (electric heat pump) are about 1/3 less than last years. We use about 1-1.5 gallons of kerosene per day when we are running the radiant heater, and it is very comfy in the downstairs living area. Works for us.

TR

jasonglh

01-21-2007, 20:45

Very true sir. The old house had been wired with a secondary box that was just plug and play with the generator for the kitchen and heat/AC unit. I have not gotten this house wired for the generator yet. I have several little things I need the contractor to do when he comes out again but not sure if my generator could handle this geothermal unit or not will have to check that one out. I do know it will handle my frig, freezer and some lights easily as I had to use it last year for a few days. Having the power out for 3 days after the tornado really set me to rethinking many things and gained budget approval from the Mrs. She follows the pandemic thread here and on other forums as well so thats also a plus I don't have to explain why I need 2 boxes of N95 masks.

During a longer outage I have found my bedroom to be the best at trapping heat (not so great in the summer) so we would probably only heat the one room. So far the record I have had with no power is 3 days where other areas around me went several weeks. My house on this dead end road is the last on the line and then connects to some sort of shack owned by the railroad. It must be important because the power company guys said the railroad was having a fit about it being out. The RR guys on one of those little trucks had it powered on the 2nd day with a generator running inside. I suppose its a computer hub of some sort.

When I got the bulbs my intention with the outside spot lights was to reduce my overall bill but on the inside I had intended to replace those as well. I have several of those 65w recessed light fixtures inside and thought if need be I could just unscrew all but a few to provide some light. However on the Sylvania packaging they only mention INSIDE the package that you cannot use these bulbs on dimmer switches. All of my recessed lighting is on dimmers so instead I will just replace the other lights with the low wattage ones.

Sacamuelas

01-21-2007, 21:57

On another front I have replaced many of my spotlights with the compact fluorescent version from Lowe's that uses only 23w vs 75w. Funny thing is those suckers are brighter than the 150w halogens I had been running but do require a full minute to get up to max lumen's at 30F. Hopefully having these bulbs will reduce the drain on my generator should the need arise to run the whole house.
Not directed as Jason, but....

Any of you who might be contingency planning a disaster/catastrophe/flu epidemic that could potentially last a few weeks out to months need to seriously reconsider what your "basic necessities" are going to be for your family in that actual circumstance.

For instance, if a gasoline/diesel fueled generator is considered a "requirement" for your family's needs for anything other than very brief service interruptions(1-5 days) then you might be grossly underestimating the logistical nightmare of having that item. My statement is based on the likelihood of the fuel acquisition problems you will encounter if a "true" interruption in shipping/cargo transport takes place due to destruction and/or quarantine. If you or a family member has a true need for constant or even a frequent A/C power supply( medical need, etc), then you should strongly consider contingency planning a way to enable transport just before the crisis to a larger facility that can better accommodate this requirement than a single individual can provide. Either that or at least consider a plan BEFORE the event of a way to pool resources with a group of people and split the expense/storage that will be required.

In the aftermath of Katrina, I spent 6+ hours driving EACH day for more than a week simply transporting gasoline back and forth to the gulf coast to supply the generators that powered my parents, grandparent, and elderly neighbors. It was so bad that there was even a shortage of 5gal plastic gas cans at all the stores (walmart/lowes/home depot,etc). Of course, then you were faced with rationing in the form of $50 per vehicle maximums that a lot of stations imposed to allow everyone to get a little gas but not enough:rolleyes: . This process also involved the constant thrill of purchasing overly priced gasoline (4+ dollar/gallon) cash only as well as the fun involved with practically running out of gasoline in the transport vehicle each day trying to get back and forth(average interstate drive was 75 miles each way). Of course, the incredibly long lines at the pump didn't make the daily pilgrimage any better. Now, fast forward to the potential of a true national pandemic where every surrounding community and the nation at large for that matter is no longer in a position to help your AO and adopts a rationing system for their key commodities, etc.

I don't really think the fuel supply concerns can be appreciated by anyone who hasn't dealt with them personally, so I thought I would chime in and add emphasis. Also of note, TR's concern with noise discipline is REAL and you WILL have guests if you are running the only lights, a/c, tv, etc in the neighborhood. In a normal short term outage, you are a hero. In a TRUE pandemic long term emergency, you will be a target as well as your gas (1st hand experience with the gas:mad: ) and Katrina wasn't as bad as it can be for something like the pandemic flu.

If I had the true need in long term planning --based on my AO and circumstances--I would look at propane generators with a VERY large in ground(out of sight) storage tank on your property.

Just a little rant and my .02 .

I also have rambling thoughts on water supply and the actual amounts one redneck southern boy required for his family. THAT little gem is completely underestimated by most if a family unit is involved. H20 and sewer turned out the be the most difficult logistical/health problem in my experience during the aftermath of the storm. Luckily for me, I wasn't dealing with bird flu symptoms and the washing/sterilizing requirements that a pandemic would necessitate.

The Reaper

01-21-2007, 22:50

Saca:

Very good points.

I have planned to use the generator as long as the fuel supplies hold out, as I have a truck with a 36 gallon tank, two cars of 16 gallons each, 10 five gallon gas cans, four kerosene cans, and a medium-sized portable genset that I only plan to use for short cycles (a couple of hours every eight hours) to power only the essentials (fridge, lights, battery charger, laptop, etc.) I am confident that I have at least a month's worth of gas on hand at any given time for the limited operation. The stock is treated with Sta-Bil and has to be rotated, as gas does not store well. Diesel will keep several months longer.

I do plan to go the propane route with a large genset, 500 gallon in ground tanks and the boxes wired with essential circuits already designated and plugged into the generator box when we build our next home. We may put in an ice machine as well, which would be on the generator circuit.

If you have access to deep cycle batteries, like boats and RVs use, you can pull them, charge them off the generator, and use them to power small appliances like portable TVs, radios, lights, and fans. I also like NiMH batteries for handheld devices like lights and radios.

You need to have a plan for what you will do as friends, neighbors, and long lost relatives wander by. We plan to keep a low profile and limit accrss from people we are not close to. That would probably include muffling the genset, running it in the garage, and draping the windows if lights are on at night.

Cash is important in post-disaster planning. If you have a gun safe, it is pretty easy. Start squirreling away small bills when you can. Save till you have at least $1000 there, and few if any $50s or $100s. If it were to be bad enough, and US currency were to be worthless, you ned to have spare barter goods or gold and silver coins. I would not take more money out to spend than I needed as word may get around to the wrong people that you have cash on hand.

Again, thanks for the voice of experience, Saca.

TR

JPH

01-22-2007, 23:55

If I had the true need in long term planning --based on my AO and circumstances--I would look at propane generators with a VERY large in ground(out of sight) storage tank on your property.

I second this!!! I have been looking in to and researching all I can on these matters. As I am looking a property a bit out of the way I should have the space for a LP / NG or even tri fuel system with a custom electrical system when we build.

Also the HAM radio community has a lot of info of commercially available battery / inverter / charger combinations that have proven to work and run their radios, computers, and enough light to work by for 7 + days during emergencies without recharge… although recharging is always best if your AO will allow you to without to much attention.

I am sure some 18E have more info on the DC power options and I will hold off until I have finished my research on the LP generators.

JPH

JGarcia

01-23-2007, 16:15

While working down in Louisiana in repsonse to hurricane katrina, I had the opportunity to work in the support section of a firm. We had heaters, generators, travel trailers, light sets, and a vast fleet of vehicles to support. The propane heaters typically ran out of fuel very quickly, we were filling up a 1 ton dually pickup bed every other day with 5 and 10 gallon propane tanks to get filled.

Diesel, in my opinion is a much better alternative, its a multiple use fuel, you can use it for generators, vehicles, heaters, etc. The fumes are a mother. Perhaps an ingenious person could use a diesel heater to heat water for radiant heat, I dunno. Propane is a pain in the ass, be sure you don't ever transport propane INSIDE your vehicle. One leaky tank- and its gonna be good night gracie - KAPLOOEY!!! As I said earlier the tanks have to be inspected every 5 years. There are fewer places to get propane than there are places to get Diesel, it was difficult once or twice to find a place to get a large amount of propane post Katrina. But we got that fixed. Anyhow.

Long term... I think TR is right, 500 gallon tank, batteries, I'd throw in some solar panels especially if'n you live south of 42 degrees. Don't forget your power inverters.

There are places here in Northern California that have never had power, I knew an old guy that lived out in the foothills....er....they'd be mountains to you southerners, no power, so he did the diesel generator/battery thing, also had a wood stove. He was a widower, he got along just fine, and not just cause he was a widower.

In addition to cash, would any of you consider necessities or commodities as currency? Such as fuels, firewood, batteries, or even SAFETY and SECURITY... marketable skills in dire times.

MAB32

01-23-2007, 16:38

I have a neighbor that lives approximately 500 feet from me. There are a few houses, fences, trees and garages between him and I. When the power goes out in the neighborhhod, you can here his generator kick in from my basement. It just seems to scream out, "Come on over!" So much for nobody visiting him when things get bad.

As far as Propane and Butane are conmcerned, they scare me. I have seen propane canisters go boom and once saw a railcar full of it go in a training film. Killed allot of fireman. Is Propane really that safe to have sitting next your house versus K-1 and gasoline?

The Reaper

01-23-2007, 17:11

Is Propane really that safe to have sitting next your house versus K-1 and gasoline?

It is safer then gasoline, and has a lot longer shelf life.

I am not Hank Hill, but an underground propane tank should be GTG.

We used the above ground LP versions on the farm for years to heat the barns. They sat outside in good weather and bad, from below zero to 120 degrees, were never maintained, and were filled a couple of times each summer. In the 20 years I lived there, we never had any trouble.

TR

MAB32

01-23-2007, 17:31

TR, that is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe I just have a "phobia" about compressed gas. K-1 and Propane are probably more forgiving in an accident than gasoline or alchohol unless it is a catastrohic failure or something similar.

mugwump

01-26-2007, 07:59

This is an excellent resource on food storage from the Mormons; they're masters of the subject. LDS Food storage (http://www.providentliving.org/channel/0,11677,1706-1,00.html)

In the right-hand pane, especially check out the "Dry Pack Handouts" which will lead you to a comprehensive PDF that details storage methods (they are moving to mylar pouches over canning), types of foods to store, storage lifespan, and critically, recipes on how to use the stuff.

The foods they recommend are inexpensive bulk items that can be turned into a variety of meals using the included recipes. I certainly wouldn't want all of my "insurance" food to be bulk, but it's a good, inexpensive way to extend your food stores.

The Reaper

01-26-2007, 09:19

MAB32

01-26-2007, 14:14

For those of us who are allergic to Gluten, here is some stock and storage advice:

www.nowheat.com/grfx/nowheat/y2k.htm

I am going to start as soon as possible. Anybody see any mistakes in this list?

mugwump

01-27-2007, 08:24

As the PS.com crash test dummy, I have bought in on this and will let you know how it turns out.

So far, so good.

Thanks for the tip, mw.

TR

Da nada; tiny payback.

ffernandez

02-06-2007, 11:45

Outstanding info on preparednes, keep it going. Having lived in Florida for the last 20 yrs.
and after hurricane Andrew in '92 I can say that having enough water, MRE's
and ammo for two or three weeks is crucial . Generators are great but not as essential as the latter. Coleman kerosene lamps will suffice with enough in the medic kit to handle most emergencies. It's amazing to me that when electricity is gone, we revert back to what humans fought for 1000 years ago:
Water and property.... And one can rest at ease when bands of roving thugs
near your wrecked place as you cuddle your AC-556 next to you and the wife has the Remington 870 ready! True peace of mind!

-Sine Pari.

x SF med

02-06-2007, 12:12

ffernandez-
Please read all the stickies, fill out your profile, and introduce yourself in the proper area prior to posting again. We like to know with whom we are conversing on this board.

Have a very SF day.

The Reaper

02-28-2007, 09:18

As the PS.com crash test dummy, I have bought in on this and will let you know how it turns out.

So far, so good.

Thanks for the tip, mw.

TR

I got in on the Mountain House Group Buy at WarRifles.com and ordered the food in January. I have eaten MH food many times and have no issues with it, other than the typical American complaint about portion sizes.

As you may or may not be aware, MH food is in short supply right now and many companies are low or out of stock and discounts are hard to come by.

Curiously, I did learn that MH is apparently packed by Oregon Freeze Dry food company. Clearly, I see Harsey's hand in this somehow.

Broadsword was putting the 9th MH group buy there together, I placed the order with him in his preferred format and sent him the payment well before his deadline. The price was $657.10 (actual order) + $32.86 (handling fee). The shipping was free for orders over $500. IIRC, this represented about a 50% discount from MSRP, and the shipping would have been substantial, so that was quite a good deal.

The order was processed and I received a shipping notice from MH last week.

The trucking company called yesterday and I gave them directions to the house. We cut the wrapping off the pallet and the driver helped me offload the eleven cases of food.

It took a little more time than calling a MH vendor, but I felt that the savings were well worth it. Broadsword described how he wanted it done and I followed the directions closely. He did his part, communicated well, and we now have a month or two of long-term storable buffer should any emergency arise which would interrupt our normal food supply. Or if I go on an extended camping trip.

In summary, I heartily recommend the WarRifles MH Group Buy for those looking to extend their food storage and who like freeze dried food.

TR

JPH

02-28-2007, 16:04

thank-you for the info I had been looking at that site and the group buys, will we work through them, or are we / should we do our own group buy?

thanks,
JPH

The Reaper

02-28-2007, 16:10

thank-you for the info I had been looking at that site and the group buys, will we work through them, or are we / should we do our own group buy?

thanks,
JPH

He seems to have the connections, the system, and the desire to do the work, so I would just sign up and get in on their buys.

TR

JPH

03-02-2007, 16:38

In summary, I heartily recommend the WarRifles MH Group Buy for those looking to extend their food storage and who like freeze dried food.

TR

I would have thought that this would have got people talking again… has this thread died?:confused:

I hope not!

JPH

Pete

03-02-2007, 17:20

… has this thread died?:confused:.....

This thread will never die. It's just taking a deap breath.

Tornado season has started, little early. Hurricane season just ahead. Hang on the ride will be bumpy.

Pete

The Reaper

03-02-2007, 18:23

Monsoon65

03-02-2007, 19:20

Frankly, I am a bit disappointed that after Katrina, winter storms, tornados, etc. we have not had more first person accounts of what worked, and didn't work, what was good advice, and bad, etc.

Those who did share, thank you very much. It is appreciated.

TR

Stole my thunder!!

I was just going to post if anyone ran into problems this winter with the storms out West and if they had to put anything from this thread into action.

Since this started, I now carry a good first aid kit in my car. I've come across two accidents (one being a tractor trailer rolling over about 50+ meters in front of me!), and always made sure I grabbed the kit and my flashlight. Luckily, never had to use it at all.

Indian

03-03-2007, 04:41

Stole my thunder!!

I was just going to post if anyone ran into problems this winter with the storms out West and if they had to put anything from this thread into action.

Since this started, I now carry a good first aid kit in my car. I've come across two accidents (one being a tractor trailer rolling over about 50+ meters in front of me!), and always made sure I grabbed the kit and my flashlight. Luckily, never had to use it at all.

This entire thread has been a most interesting and informative read. I don't want to get off track here, but the following may generate some ideas or (hopefully) constructive critism regarding regarding winter travel emergencies:

I live in Alaska and experience a variety of conditions and occurences with a lot of potential for disaster.

1. I travel 120 miles R/T almost every day from a semu-rural home to Anchorage and have made it a point to carry and maintain a basic kit in my vehicle, including first aid, warm clothing, fire making, light, blades, firearm, food, water and tools (water is just 1 qt nalgene in my laptop bag.). There are several bridges and rivers that can separate me from home at the half way point and I could be in for a long and cold hike if not trapped. In a real disaster (earthquake, volcano, fire - we get them all), I could be completely cut off from home for an extended period. This has happened to me for short periods a few times.

2. I also fly above the arctic circle usually one week each month. This week I left -41degF and blowing snow there to return to 0degF and 60-70mph winds. In all my air travels I carry what emergency/survival gear the TSA allows in my day pack, which sadly doesn't amount to much more than clothing and a minimal personal kit without blades, etc.

3. I don't rely on the airline personnel or government agencies for my personal survival on these trips. We fly over 600 miles of frozen wilderness.

I have always made it a priority to be as prepared as possible for any cold weather travel contingencies and have been thankful for that on several occassions over the years here in the frozen north, even in summer. I wish I could convince my family to take this more seriously instead of relying on me (good chance I will be gone).

What am I missing? Is this useful to anyone? I know I haven't addressed winter storms on the homefront, or what gear I carry and why, but I thought the travel issue important.

Thanks for your patience.

JPH

03-03-2007, 12:32

I wish I could convince my family to take this more seriously instead of relying on me (good chance I will be gone).

This is my biggest worry/problem!!! I have no problem finding the time/money/training/supplies I would need to be personally self-sufficient for very prolonged period of time… However, I do not have the finances to take care of everyone in my family and I am the only one to both enjoys the preparations and have the forethought and motivation to do them.

JPH

The Reaper

03-03-2007, 19:35

This is my biggest worry/problem!!! I have no problem finding the time/money/training/supplies I would need to be personally self-sufficient for very prolonged period of time… However, I do not have the finances to take care of everyone in my family and I am the only one to both enjoys the preparations and have the forethought and motivation to do them.

JPH

Let me refer you to a great book on this very subject entitled, "The Ant and the Grasshopper".

TR

The Reaper

03-13-2007, 21:26

Tools, anyone?

For preparedness/survival purposes, I would divide them into functional groups.

Construction.

Automotive.

Household.

Farming/Ranching.

Firearms.

Anyone have any other groups which would be applicable? For example, I think rescue tools can be gathered from several of the above categories.

Let's start with construction tools.

Basically, most of these tools are designed to move material, make a piece of construction material the proper length, or to put two or more pieces of material together.

I would start my tool collection with shovels, picks, and similar earth moving tools.

Add timber felling and shaping tools such as axes, saws, planes, drills, chisels, etc.

You have to have measuring and alignment tools to make sure that the pieces will fit. Measuring tapes, levels, strings, plumb bobs, squares, guides, etc.

Then add joining tools such as hammers, screwdrivers, staplers, pliers, clamps, ratcheting straps, etc.

PVC pipe can quickly be assembled for a number of purposes with just a cutter, some sandpaper, and the pipe cement.

Electrical wiring repair is dangerous and should only be attempted by professionals, but a test meter, a few sets of pliers, a couple of screwdrivers, a set of nut drivers, some wire, and a few rolls of tape, with a working knowledge of electricity and a schematic will allow most people to keep the lights on.

I would also consider demolition tools in this category, such as pry bars, quickie saws, sledges and mauls, demolition hammers, etc. These could be among the most useful items to have if the disaster involved rescuing trapped people, or knocking down parts of structures for access.

The construction tools would be very handy indeed if you neede to improvise a hasty shelter, to expand your current one, or to make expedient repairs to a damaged structure.

In this category, I would recommend that everyone have at least one good ladder, a hammer, hand saw, a hacksaw, pair of pliers, a screwdriver with interchangable tips, a heavy duty stapler, a Wonderbar, a shovel (long-handled round-pointed), an axe (single bit), a 25' measuring tape, a short level, a try square, plenty of fasteners such as nails, screws, staples, etc. I woulkd strongly consider adding a good drill (cordless, 18v. or better if possible), a power saw, a chain saw, and a wheelbarrow.

When I lived in Puerto Rico, a lot of the houses had "FEMA roofs" for over a year, which were blue tarps nailed onto the exposed roofing. A couple of good sized tarps (or a roll of plastic sheeting), a few furring strips, some nails, screws, or the fastest, a slap type stapler, and you can repair the weathertightness of your structure quite rapidly. You could even use the stapler on the range.

Pop the hinge pins out of interior doors with a hammer and a nail or screwdriver and you can make quick shelter materials or handy litters for the injured.

Use a mower, a lawn tractor with a disk, or a shovel properly, while keeping the roof wet with a hose, and the wildfire might not get close enough to your house to destroy it.

The saw chainsaw that you use to remove fallen trees and limbs can also rough cut lumber, if you use it right. Don't forget the file, bar oil, two-stroke oil, and fresh gas.

The redneck engineering thread is a wealth of ideas.

If you have no tools, this might be a good time to go to the hometown store, a Lowe's or Home Depot and look at the selection. Get a kit or add one new tool per month till you have your basic set.

Just a few thoughts, hope others feel free to contribute.

TR

jasonglh

03-13-2007, 21:52

If you are on a budget http://www.harborfreight.com/ is a great source of cheap tools especially when they run them on sale.

I just bought some really large tarps there dirt cheap.

The Reaper

03-14-2007, 06:42

If you are on a budget http://www.harborfreight.com/ is a great source of cheap tools especially when they run them on sale.

I just bought some really large tarps there dirt cheap.

Tarps from HF are okay.

I have rarely found cheap tools to be a bargain in the long run though.

TR

Pete

03-14-2007, 06:58

Tarps from HF are okay.

I have rarely found cheap tools to be a bargain in the long run though.

TR

There is one in Fayetteville. I got a cheap Hot Air Gun for cleaning out my "new" 03. Worked good. Then again that was a one time use tool and if it keeps working the next time so much the better.

Every day use tools are well worth the extra money and quality. One thing I can not stand is a cheap screw driver. Followed in close order by "fake" Swiss Army Knives and "fake" Leathermans.

Pete

x SF med

03-14-2007, 08:01

I try to always keep an e-tool in the trunk of the car.... shovel, axe, prybar... weapon.... anybody else?

jasonglh

03-14-2007, 11:19

I have rarely found cheap tools to be a bargain in the long run though.

Very true sir. For everyday use I have a full set of Craftsman tools and for power I prefer the Dewalt line.

I have several autos, boats and tractors so I can outfit a pretty good "aw sh*t" box on each with cheap tools to get me back home. Bright side of cheap tools is if it falls overboard or you bounce off a ratchet in a corn field you are not going to loose much sleep over it. Yes I have done both. :o

You mentioned electrical repair. For automotive use you can buy a large assortment of wire and connectors relatively cheap. I hate having to run out to the store to get a 5 cent connector in the middle of a repair. No telling what may act up in an emergency.

The Reaper

03-14-2007, 20:27

I try to always keep an e-tool in the trunk of the car.... shovel, axe, prybar... weapon.... anybody else?

E-tool, flashlights, batteries, fire extinguisher, an axe, folding saw, multi-tool, comealong, tow strap, tie downs, ratchet straps, bolt cutters, rope, jumper cables, 100mph tape, electrical tape, spare bulbs, 550 cord, a space blanket or three, gloves, hats, rags, wipes, a siphon hose, cans of fix-a-flat, fuel line, clamps, wire, a gas can, flares, cell charger, lineman's phone, water, food, scanner, fuses, spare ammo, OC, flex-cuffs, a first aid kit, paper towels, a notebook, pens and pencils, and a tool kit (Craftsman and WiHa).

Last time I was almost stuck was when I had a late flight home and when I got to the truck in the airport remote parking lot around midnight, the headlights would not work. I checked all of the fuses, connections, grounds, everything. Turned out later that the switch was fried. They would work on passing beams though, as long as I held the stalk up. Every 10-15 minutes, they would overheat and go out too, so I would turn them off and drive without them on just the marker lights till I saw a car coming, when I would turn them back on. I had two SureFire M900s that I contemplated taping to the hood as substitutes, but decided that it might attract too much attention so I would occasionally hold one out the window to light the road if there was no traffic. I guess I could have slept in the parking lot or called the wife to wake up the kids and drive for over an hour to get me, but I really wanted to get home on my own. Then I added a 12 v. test light to the tool loadout.

TR

Roycroft201

03-14-2007, 22:33

Originally Posted by The Reaper
Frankly, I am a bit disappointed that after Katrina, winter storms, tornados, etc. we have not had more first person accounts of what worked, and didn't work, what was good advice, and bad, etc.

Those who did share, thank you very much. It is appreciated.

TR

Although our topic has switched to tools, in light of The Reaper's post I'll add my recent experience with my furnace (AKA my boiler).

Spring has been late in coming to my area of the NE and last week Thursday I woke up in a VERY chilly bedroom. My home was built in 1941 and still has the original hot water boiler and radiators for its heating system. I was puzzled because I could hear that the system was 'running' so I knew the thermostat had kicked it on.
I walked down the stairs to the basement to find that the copper coil, that is the 'innards' of my boiler and which is heated by natural gas jets on the base of the boiler , had cracked and was now leaking water all over the floor as well as swamped the gas jets and pilot light.
1). I believe there is a 'safety' mechanism that shuts off the gas, even though the furnace was calling for it. Nevertheless, I have several Carbon Monoxide detectors properly located so that was not a problem. After having a 'scare' several years ago I believe that every home should have several and buy the good ones - carbon monoxide is not an area to pinch pennies.
2). I had no idea how to shut the water off to the boiler to stop the leaking all over the floor. Had to call a friend to come do that. ( Note to the other ladies on PS.com........make sure you find out about all the simple stuff as a home owner , like where shut off valves are for everything related to water - water to the toilet, to the outside hose connection, to your hot water heater, to your furnace if it involves hot water, etc. etc.)
3). Once the leaking water was taken care of, I knew I had to find a source of heat for the next few days and the forecast was calling for an overnight low of 0* !!
I have one of those electric sealed space heaters that has oil inside it, and it has a multiple setting thermostat. It actually looks like a radiator - you've most likely seen them.
I don't have a fireplace.
No little children around any longer, but I do have pets so whatever I use has to be 'pet' safe.
Because of that, one other older electric space heater I owned was not going to be 'safe' to use. The heating elements were too exposed for my peace of mind.
A friend loaned me another type of space heater that does have heating elements (rather than the 'oil' ) but it was much safer than the one I had. Mine is going in the trash.

The weather has gone from frigid on the night the boiler died, to 60* yesterday, and tonight we have a weather advisory for 3 - 6 " of snow once again. :mad:

So, I guess this story is about what to do if your home heating source kicks the bucket, in very cold temps, and you can't just pack up and go stay with friends or family because your pets will freeze. :(

It's not the standard problem when all power is lost during a blizzard, but having SAFE alternate heating sources on short notice for back up is worth thinking about BEFORE you need them.

RC201

Gypsy

03-15-2007, 11:13

Wow, RC...glad you found alternative heat.

Did you have your boiler/furnace checked out by a professional prior to turning it on for the winter season?

The Reaper

03-15-2007, 19:40

We have already covered heat, but I would add that in an emergency cold weather situation, collapse all of your activities down to a small part of the house, or a single central or well insulated room, if possible.

The smaller space takes a lot less energy to heat, if you have supplemental heat, and if not, body heat and a candle or two (or a can of Sterno) will be a lot more effective in the confined space than in an entire dwelling.

Just remember to keep an eye out for Carbon Monoxide problems.

Thanks for sharing!

TR

smp52

03-23-2007, 15:26

It's not the standard problem when all power is lost during a blizzard, but having SAFE alternate heating sources on short notice for back up is worth thinking about BEFORE you need them.

One winter some years ago in Chicago, the furnace died on us. The system was still blowing air, but an electrical part went out related to the thermostat. My uncle whom I lived with then was out and my aunt didn't know what to do. It was a weekend and the repair guy said he'd come the next day. We have a fireplace in the living room and it has it's own gas line. Finding the main valve in the basement was interesting (we rarely turned it on and it was my uncle), but once we did, that was our source of heat.

My aunt, my two cousins, a buddy that was over visiting, and myself all threw sleeping bags in front of the fireplace and crashed there for the night. We had lots of extra blankets. The only problem with the fireplace was that its location was in the most open/exposed part of the house (Valuted ceilings, windows, french doors, etc.). There was no way to trap heat to that room. Temp in the house was hovering around 50 the next early morning. The fireplace looked pretty, but didn't have much 'oomph' to it.

Indian

03-24-2007, 18:30

[QUOTE=The Reaper]E-tool, flashlights, batteries, fire extinguisher, an axe, folding saw, multi-tool, comealong, tow strap, tie downs, ratchet straps, bolt cutters, rope, jumper cables, 100mph tape, electrical tape, spare bulbs, 550 cord, a space blanket or three, gloves, hats, rags, wipes, a siphon hose, cans of fix-a-flat, fuel line, clamps, wire, a gas can, flares, cell charger, lineman's phone, water, food, scanner, fuses, spare ammo, OC, flex-cuffs, a first aid kit, paper towels, a notebook, pens and pencils, and a tool kit (Craftsman and WiHa).

Looks like you have that pretty well covered, but why the bolt cutters?

I also carry an Estwing axe and a folding shovel + a small BOB or "Possibles Bag" which includes a large fixed blade.

bob

The Reaper

03-24-2007, 20:44

Looks like you have that pretty well covered, but why the bolt cutters?

bob

Let's just say it comes in handy when I forget my masterkey.

Makes a lot less noise than the shotgun, too.

TR

Sacamuelas

03-24-2007, 20:54

Looks like you have that pretty well covered, but why the bolt cutters?
bob

Let's just say it comes in handy when I forget my masterkey.

Makes a lot less noise than the shotgun, too.

TR
Concur.
I ALWAYS have bolt cutters when I hunt or go way out to camp. You never know when you might "misplace" your gate keys during a hunt or ride. There are other uses for that wonderful little device should you happen upon a poacher's lock-on stand or climber as well. :D Bolt cutters can also be used to unbind an axle/hub that has been bound by wire/debris as well- BTDT.
[/hijack]

Indian

03-26-2007, 00:53

OK, it's just what I figured with the bolt cutters. Not too many fences or gates around Alaska though. Here most problems begin with getting stuck and the weather going to hell. There are a lot of people who think a granola bar is being prepared, so we get a few tragic SAR headlines every year. Most of my hunting is fly in, hike in, 4 wheeler or snow machine.

Back to the subject of tools, I have a complete selection of non-power carpentry tools that I can and have used to build everything from buildings to cabinets to furniture. They are in 2 old style open carpenter's wooden tool boxes and my family knows they are to go with us should the SHTF. I built this tool set based on what I learned from an old retired master carpenter when I was a kid. I do have all the modern power tools & toys, but I use the old stuff most.

I've always thought I should plan for no power and limited fuel if things got really bad. After many prolonged power outages here over the years, I've tried to make sure we have what we need at home so we don't have to rely on utilities. It has paid off many times.....

Indian

Sionnach

04-02-2007, 19:11

... lineman's phone....

I never thought about how useful that would be.

Since I'm in metro Atlanta, surrounded by folks that probably aren't prepared, my plan is to bug-out quickly to the national forests or state parks. If it's a short term problem, I get a nice camping weekend. Is fishing gear considered tools?

TR listed some great tools to keep around the house if you wanted to wait it out. Assuming a long-term stay away from your current home due to H51, economic collapse, or zombie invasion, what would you consider must haves?

Assuming I'd want to build a shelter better than a tent: hammer, nails, manual drill with bits, screws, screwdrivers, axe, handsaw, plumb bob, square, level.

Tar paper?
Rope, what sizes and lengths?
Wire, gauges and amount?

I've been looking at some inexpensive trailers from harbor freight to be a camping/bug-out trailer. My truck feels big, but by the time I add load up on food, water, fuel, and clothing, it seems a lot smaller. With the trailer, I could also carry a few things to make my life easier: like my kayak for fishing, scouting, setting trot lines, etc. Because I camp and hike frequently, I will rotate food stuffs, and the trailer will double as my camp trailer. After a few trips, I will have a better idea of what I need/don't need in a serious SHTF situation.

jatx

04-02-2007, 20:29

I've been looking at some inexpensive trailers from harbor freight to be a camping/bug-out trailer. My truck feels big, but by the time I add load up on food, water, fuel, and clothing, it seems a lot smaller. With the trailer, I could also carry a few things to make my life easier.

I have considered a pop-up for similar reasons: more comfortable for a long outing, whatever the reason, and extra carrying capacity.

The Reaper

04-02-2007, 21:04

I would not bet my life on anything made by Harbor Freight.

You may be able to get a good deal on a used enclosed trailer by watching the classifieds.

If you are going to be building a shelter, you first will need a place to live while you work, then you will need a lot of lumber, or the tools to make it, like saws, a portable mill, axes, adzes, drills, braces and bits, a come-along, a Hi-Lift Jack, a welding vehicle alternator with cables, a handcart or heavy duty wheelbarrow, etc. Only after that will you need to tools to assemble it. Tar paper or roofing felt would be good to have, as would plastic sheeting, tarps, some sheets of galvanized metal roofing, a roll of sheet metal, a few rolls of insulation, a caulking gun and plenty of caulk and liquid nails, a window or two, several bags of cement and sand, pieces of rebar, some fencing or chicken wire, some five gallon buckets, a washtub, some cast iron cookware, a Yukon or pot-bellied wood stove, hinges, a lockset, plenty of spikes, nails, screws, cordage, wire, chain, strapping, JB Weld, 100 mph tape, epoxy, etc., a deep cycle battery or two, and a bicycle. If room allowed, a set of blacksmithing tools (hammers, tongs, etc.), an anvil, and some stock metal could come in handy.

If you are anticipate being there a year or more, some seeds and gardening/farming tools would be a great idea.

TR

Sionnach

04-03-2007, 18:27

I would not bet my life on anything made by Harbor Freight.

If you are anticipate being there a year or more, some seeds and gardening/farming tools would be a great idea.

I have zero experience with HF products. Since I grew up on a farm, and my dad was a mechanic, I'm mechanically inclined and experienced in "Southern Engineering." I intended to check out the trailer quality, then during my camping excursions, see how it holds up under load. However, I'll defer to your experience and either construct my own trailer, or find one.

The seeds are a great idea. They're inexpensive and take a minimum amount of space. The National Center for Genetic Resources Preservation claims that properly stored seeds can remain viable for 100 years at -18C. If your bugout plan includes seeds, make sure you grow a little garden to get the hang of it. Considering most of our food is NOT produced locally, and grocery stores truck most food in, a fuel shortage can quickly lead to a food shortage.

Our refineries are very vulnerable, and much of our oil is supplied by not-so-friendly countries. As Chinese fuel demand increases, and radicalism and socialism continue to rear their ugly heads in several key oil-producing areas, I consider a major fuel shortage to be just as realistic a possibility as the pandemic flu. Those of you who lived during the OPEC embargo already know impact of short term fuel shortages.

The Reaper

04-03-2007, 19:56

If you get seeds, and you plan to grow more than one crop, do not get the hybrid variety seeds. They will be sterile after the first crop.

TR

Surf n Turf

04-06-2007, 17:20

For anyone interested ---
I missed the initial group buy from Mountain House that TR participated in, so I contacted Boadsword directly, and received the following information.

Broadsword,
Are you planning on another group buy from Mountain House. Any information would be appreciated

From: <broadsword2269@yahoo.com>

Yes, We have one coming up in just a couple weeks. We're doing a group buy on MRE entree's right now if you want to get in on that. -
Don

SnT

Shar

05-10-2007, 12:13

I'll first say that I'm LDS (Mormon) and for us, self-reliance and food storage is something of a commandment. ;) Obviously not all Mormons live up to all of their rules (real or perceived) just like any other religious body, so I'm guessing that if you polled 10 Mormons on the street 4 of them might be able to talk with any credibility on the subject. I'm not bagging on my fellowmen here, I'm just adding this caveat so that when I tell you that for some of my suggestions you'll need to find yourself a Mormon, you are careful in your selection of those you seek out for any assistance with LDS resources.

With that said...

The LDS church has a LOT of resources available to it and its membership regarding food storage. Probably the single best resource, in my opinion, is the "cannery" (that's what we call it) but it is more formally known as the Home Storage Center. There are literally hundreds of them located all over the world. You can find the one closest to you here: http://www.providentliving.org/content/display/0,11666,7550-1-4066-1,00.html
Before I go into what is found at the cannery, here's the catch: in order to avail yourself of the cannery you must go with a member of the church. Because this isn't a "for-profit" organization and taxes aren't paid it or the workers (it's all volunteer) it cannot be opened to the public. So, if you know a member of the church, ask them about the cannery and when their "ward" time is to go. Each ward generally has a pre-appointed time to go to the cannery every month or so. You can tag along. If you don't know anyone in the area who is Mormon and you are a little more daring, you can look up the local church and call and ask for the ward food storage specialist. Every ward has one. Ask for their name and number. Call that person and tell them you'd like to go and volunteer to help on their next canning day and they'll be happy to have you. Generally you have to put your bulk order in a few months in advance, but you can order off the shelf products or bring your own products to can (I'll explain that in a minute). You'll have at least 20-30 people there helping you on a Saturday morning and together everyone cans tons (literally) of food for each other and you are done in a few hours. It's fun actually. Very little religious overtones - just an opening prayer. The rest is getting down to business. I can't promise you that no one will try and invite you to church, but if you are clear that your purpose there is to be a friend and a compatriot in self-reliance and that's it and you are helpful and pleasant - they'll get the hint and move on. That won't stop them from being really nice to you though. The ward food storage (or self-reliance) specialist is the key to your entrance. I called my ward's self-reliance specialist here and asked her if a non-Mormon wanted to come with us and can if that was cool and she said yes, it happens regularly. She said they just get their order to her, get their map to the cannery and they're good to go. I go and can regularly and I've never noticed anyone getting the missionary special (and I rarely recognize more than a handful of people anyway), I've been too busy canning to care. If someone is in the Tucson or Phoenix areas and is interested, PM me and I can hook you up with people.

As far as what you can get/can at the dry-pack canneries:
flour
rice (long-grain - we bring our own short grain rice since my husband is very picky about his rice)
spaghetti
sugar
dried apple slices
red wheat
white wheat
quick oats
rolled oats
powdered milk (great to use all the time for cooking)
potato buds (a staple in our house - they're YUMMY)
chocolate pudding
vanilla pudding (the puddings are good for cooking cakes and whatnot)
dried carrots
black beans
navy beans
dried onions
refried beans
(I'm doing this from memory, but I think that's it for your normal dry-pack canneries). This is all generally canned in 10# cans. I know some do mylar bags, but those break open or puncture easily so if you move at all, I wouldn't suggest it.

Some of the canneries (like the one in Phoenix) also do wet-packing. They do meats, jams/jellies, peanut butter, etc. I've never been to a wet-pack cannery, but if you've got one in your area that's great. I don't have a price list with me, but I'll grab one on Sunday. I do know the bulk prices beat the commissary and Sam's Club/Costco on normal days. That isn't to say you can't beat the cannery - but when you add the type of cans (10#), you've got a good thing going and it generally blows it away. The closest cannery in North Carolina is in Greensboro.

However, I do the majority of my day-to-day (what's in my pantry) food storage shopping at the commissary and Costco. Case lot sales are my best friend. I'm a huge proponent of store what you eat. We probably have about a four month supply between our pantry, closets and deep freeze. I've got three young kids who just aren't going to eat wheat happily. I'm not going to cook wheat happily. I have some wheat for real true nasty awful emergencies, but I don't bake my bread. I buy 4-5 loaves at a time and freeze them. I'll post an article below this post that I live by that explains the biggest mistakes in food storage. Being an active duty family I just don't think it is reasonable to think we can store more than 4 months of food without killing our weight allowance and ourselves on any given move - not to mention the fact that we regularly have issues with storage (and that has nothing to do with my obsession with dishes) :eek: .

There are a couple of web sites that I like for bulk items that do have good prices - at least to compare prices with the canneries, etc are:
www.honeyvillegrain.com
www.beprepared.com (have great first aid kits, 72 hour kits and will do group orders and save you on shipping)
www.waltonfeed.com

Couple of other things:

Meds: I've tried to read the whole thread and I may have missed this - if it's been said already, it merits being said again. You need to keep an extra month of medicine on-hand. My son has an endocrine issue that requires daily injections of a drug that gets mail ordered to us in a refrigerated container on a monthly basis. I've been slowly hoarding it over the past few years (they won't hand me an extra supply happily) and now I'm about a month ahead of where they think we are... During Hurricane Katrina there were HUGE problems getting the meds to patients in the affected areas and so other parents on my support group board were driving their extra medicine all over the country - it was awful. Anyway, I'm paranoid now.

Finances: Food storage is a really really good idea during lean times too. We've lived out of our food storage in the past when we just haven't had a good cash flow. It isn't just for catastrophic times. I regularly see the commissary promote buying a little extra to keep in the pantry and I think this is beyond wise and we should educate some of the younger/newers out there that they ought to be a month ahead with what is in the cupboard. The finance office doesn't always come through when they need to and it's good to have some extra mac and cheese hanging around. I also LOVE going through a month where I cook out of my food storage and my freezer and only to the commissary for fruit/veggies. A couple of months ago my total grocery bill for the month was $50. I obviously can't do that every month because I have to stock back up again, and this past month I had a much bigger bill - but it's great when you need to use the money for something else and you need to rotate your food.

MRE's: This is more a question... I saw mention of a bulk order you all did awhile ago. Was this cheaper than the MRE's that you can buy in the commissary? We like having MRE's around as 72 hour kit and camping food and I keep a few in the cars, but DANG they're pricey. My husband flat refuses to bring any home from work. I'm not going to push his ethics on this one, but... can't I find them cheaper somewhere besides the commissary?

Beef: I've had a few family members who have done this - we've never been anywhere quite long enough to do it but I really want to... I think going in with a few friends a splitting a cow is a great idea. I'm not sure the particulars or how you go about finding said cow, but I know they get a ton of beef out of a 1/4 cow and it lasts over a year for a family of five with lots of good beef and ends up being economical (or so I've heard). Clearly if electricity were cut, the freezer would be trouble but I guess the BBQ would have to be fired up right quick. I do know people who can beef in their homes but that is way out of my league.

Hopefully this wasn't too rambling. If I haven't been clear, please let me know. If anyone wants prices, let me know and I'll either post them or PM them to you. I've also got spreadsheets for inventory and food storage plans for building a 3 month supply one week at a time over the course of a year. The last thing you need to do is go into debt to get prepared - that would really defeat things.

I'll post the article below in it's entirety. I think it is worth the read.

Shar

05-10-2007, 12:16

7 Mistakes of food storage

By Vicki Tate

If you are going to store food, make sure that the food you store is adequate for the need you and your family anticipate. This may not be as easy as to achieve as many people think, because the facts are that most people make serious errors when storing food—errors that will come back to haunt them when the food they’ve stored is the only thing that stands between them and their empty, dissatisfied, bellies.

There are seven common mistakes people make when storing food. They are:

1. Variety
Most people don’t have enough variety in their storage. 95% of the people I’ve worked with have only stored four basic items: wheat, milk, honey, and salt. Statistics show most of us won’t survive on such a diet for several reasons. a) Many people are allergic to wheat and may not be aware of it until they are eating it meal after meal. b) Wheat is too harsh for young children. They can tolerate it in small amounts but not as their main staple. c) We get tired of eating the same foods over and over and many times prefer to not eat, then to sample that particular food again. This is called appetite fatigue. Young children and older people are particularly susceptible to it. Store less wheat than is generally suggested and put the difference into a variety of other grains, particularly ones your family likes to eat. Also store a variety of beans, as this will add color, texture, and flavor. Variety is the key to a successful storage program. It is essential that you store flavorings such as tomato, bouillon, cheese, and onion.

Also, include a good supply of the spices you like to cook with. These flavorings and spices allow you to do many creative things with your grains and beans. Without them you are severely limited. One of the best suggestions I can give you is buy a good food storage cookbook, go through it, and see what your family would really eat. Notice the ingredients as you do it. This will help you more than anything else to know what items to store.

2. Extended staples
Never put all your eggs in one basket. Store dehydrated and/or freeze dried foods as well as home canned and “store bought” canned goods. Make sure you add cooking oil, shortening, baking powder, soda, yeast, and powdered eggs. You can’t cook even the most basic recipes without these items.

3. Vitamins
Vitamins are important, especially if you have children, since children do not store body reserves of nutrients as adults do. A good quality multi-vitamin and vitamin C are the most vital. Others might be added as your budget permits.

4. Quick and easy and “psychological foods”
Quick and easy foods help you through times when you are psychologically or physically unable to prepare your basic storage items. “No cook” foods such as freeze-dried are wonderful since they require little preparation, MREs (Meal Ready to Eat), such as many preparedness outlets carry, canned goods, etc. are also very good. “Psychological foods” are the goodies—Jello, pudding, candy, etc.—you should add to your storage. These may sound frivolous, but through the years I've talked with many people who have lived entirely on their storage for extended periods of time. Nearly all of them say these were the most helpful items in their storage to “normalize” their situations and make it more bearable. These are especially important if you have children.

5. Balance
Time and time again I’ve seen families buy all of their wheat, then buy all of another item and so on. Don’t do that. It’s important to keep well-balanced as you build your storage. Buy several items, rather than a large quantity of one item. If something happens and you have to live on your present storage, you’ll fare much better having a one month supply of a variety of items than a year’s supply of two or three items.

6. Containers
Always store your bulk foods in food storage containers. I have seen literally tons and tons of food thrown away because they were left in sacks, where they became highly susceptible to moisture, insects, and rodents. If you are using plastic buckets make sure they are lined with a food grade plastic liner available from companies that carry packaging supplies. Never use trash can liners as these are treated with pesticides. Don’t stack them too high. In an earthquake they may topple, the lids pop open, or they may crack. A better container is the #10 tin can which most preparedness companies use when they package their foods.

7. Use your storage
In all the years I’ve worked with preparedness one of the biggest problems I’ve seen is people storing food and not knowing what to do with it. It’s vital that you and your family become familiar with the things you are storing. You need to know how to prepare these foods. This is not something you want to have to learn under stress. Your family needs to be used to eating these foods. A stressful period is not a good time to totally change your diet. Get a good food storage cookbook and learn to use these foods! It’s better to find out the mistakes you’ll make now while there’s still time to make corrections.

It’s easy to take basic food storage and add the essentials that make it tasty, and it needs to be done. As I did the research for my cookbook, Cooking with Home Storage, I wanted to include recipes that gave help to families no matter what they had stored. As I put the material together it was fascinating to discover what the pioneers ate compared to the types of things we store. If you have stored only the basics, there’s very little you can do with it. By adding even just a few things, it greatly increases your options, and the prospect of your family surviving on it. As I studied how the pioneers lived and ate, my whole feeling for food storage changed. I realized our storage is what most of the world has always lived on. If it’s put together the right way we are returning to good basic food with a few goodies thrown in.

Vicki Tate is the author of the popular book, Cooking With Home Storage

Pete

05-10-2007, 12:30

Shar;

You have 8 posts so far and all have been great. Keep up the good work, I'll have to keep my eyes open for the next Shar-gram.

Pete

The Reaper

05-10-2007, 13:38

Shar:

Good info.

When you get here and get hooked up with a local church, maybe we can get together and tag along with you on a trip to Greensboro.

Since you mentioned you have a dish fetish, I feel it is only fair to warn you that one of the largest dish replacement companies in the US, Replacements Limited, is located in Greensboro. http://www.replacements.com/index.htm

MREs are expensive to make and are best stored in cool temperatures. The menu changes for good reason, since eating them for very long is quickly monotonous. The cheapest way to get them is to ask around military people who deploy a lot. Like SF. If your hubby won't hook you up, someone in his unit might have some extras. I have to tell you that you can save money on the MREs by just buying the entrees and skipping all of the packaging, accessories, heaters, toilet paper, etc. The companies that package the entrees also sell them separately.

PCS time is a great chance to get ahead on meds.

The details of the Mountain House buy (from Oregon Freeze Dry, who packs MH food) are further back in this thread, they were with Broadsword at WarRifles.com and they appear to do them regularly. IIRC, someone said that they were doing an MRE entree buy as well. They have some rules, but I found it realtively easy to order and they were delivered to my door. The discount, for #10 cans was somewhere around 50% and the shipping (for orders over $500) was free. The people putting the deal together semed pretty trustworthy and easy to deal with.

HTH.

TR

Shar

05-10-2007, 13:59

Since you mentioned you have a dish fetish, I feel it is only fair to warn you that one of the largest dish replacement companies in the US, Replacements Limited, is located in Greensboro. http://www.replacements.com/index.htm

Oh, I LOVE that company though I've never bought, only registered. And really, you should be warning my husband... He doesn't share the love. I will however forget to mention the tidbit of information so that he can focus all of his energy on getting us to NC. :p

I'd be happy to help coordinate the cannery if/when we get there so long as I get to waive at Replacements Limited on the trip.

Monsoon65

05-10-2007, 16:21

Shar:

Thanks for all the info. I have the waltonfeed website on my favorites list. I think I'll be getting some of their Gamma Seal lids. That's something that has a ton of uses for storing stuff.

Monsoon65

05-12-2007, 19:03

I noticed at waltonfeed.com that they have package deals for a year or two months supply of food. (They have three different "one year" packages).

http://waltonfeed.com/intro/packages.html

Would something like this be a good starting point for someone starting their food storage system?

The Reaper

05-12-2007, 22:20

Most packages offered are very heavy on grain and have a lot of sugars to raise the calorie count and are not something that you would actually want to eat for a year.

I would look closely at the menu and be sure of what I was getting before I ordered it.

You also need to look at shipping charges, and whether you actually have somewhere to store a couple of pallets of food under controlled climate conditions.

TR

BadMuther

05-14-2007, 10:12

Per this thread, I am looking for a handheld VHF radio to add to my emergency supplies. I know absolutely nothing about radios.

What features should I look for? Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

Thanks very much.

Check Ebay for Bendix/King Radios. Also known as a PRC-127. User face programmable VHF (and UHF) radios.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=multi_use

You can program it to the MURS freq's for local use.

Good compatible mobile VHF radios for vehicles and base are relm/regency/wilson mobiles on ebay. They are also user programmable.

I've used these radios for years in SAR and police work. Good bang for the buck, and the major advantage is they are easily programmable. Lots of Amateur radios today are very complicated to program and require you to take it to a shop where they program it from cables connected to a 'puter.

Pete

08-15-2007, 05:23

For you new people. Dean is churning out in the mid-Atlanitc.

Time to review this thread, blow the dust of the generator, check/rotate emergency supplies, check meds, review emergency plans to include commo, check the exterior of the home (gutters, etc) and yard (dead trees, branches, etc) etc, etc etc.

Read the thread.

Pete

TF Kilo

09-02-2007, 02:37

here's a question... anyone do any off-site caches, and if so, what are you caching?

The Reaper

09-02-2007, 08:52

here's a question... anyone do any off-site caches, and if so, what are you caching?

I do not think it is prudent to discuss where or what one is caching on the internet.

Having said that, it is reasonable to have modularity, and back-ups (remember PACE). Most people do not stay at home 24/7. If possible, people should have a certain amount of gear on their person (EDC or ruck), as well as at their workplace, in their vehicle, at home, and at any alternate location you plan to go to.

Someone living in Miami might want to have a secondary location with preparation at an alternate inland site, perhaps at a friend's or relative's house.

The purpose of the personal kit is to enable you to be prepared for a short duration emergency and to move to the next prepared location. If the evacuation has hopelessly crowded the highways, you need to have a plan to remain in place.

The kit in the auto should be appropriate for the season and the threat. What you would keep in a preparedness kit in Buffalo, NY in February would not be the same as New Orleans in August. The car kit should be designed to supplement your personal kit, and to allow you to survive in your car or on the move for a given period, perhaps 3-7 days, while you wait for rescue or move to a better location.

The home kit should be the bulk of your preparedness effort. If you plan to relocate to another location, you should still have the necessities so that survival there is an option. If you are planning to relocate, the home kit should be as portable as possible considering your transportation assets available.

A secondary location should be stand-alone as well as supplemental to the main effort. For example, if you are bringing firearms, spare ammo and mags would be a good idea, but you might want to have one or two firearms in the same calibers there, in case you arrive unarmed. A wise person will look at the laundry list of things that we have discussed and will make sure that additional iterms at the secondary site are complementary. Canned food is useless without a way to open it. Bulk wheat is not very palatable without a mill or grinder. Etc., etc. Barter items may be useful as well.

Hope that helps.

TR

TF Kilo

09-02-2007, 17:22

Good train of thought.

clapdoc

09-02-2007, 17:41

This is a great thread.
My wife of 26 years is very talented in the food preparation department.
She cans fresh vegetables so that we do not need refrigeration and i cure pork and venison so that we do not have to use a freezer.
During hurricane Katrina we were without electricity for 15 days and I can tell you that a butane cooker is about the handiest item you can use. Bottledwater is also very desirable, but in an emergency any water can be boiled to purity.

We actually saw desperate individuals pull knives on each other over a gallon of gasoline. Civilization breaks down very fast when people's immediate needs can not be attained.

I hope I never live thru another Katrina but you can bet your last dollar that my family is prepared.

calpdoc sends,

Shar

09-02-2007, 18:15

Someone living in Miami might want to have a secondary location with preparation at an alternate inland site, perhaps at a friend's or relative's house.

....

The kit in the auto should be appropriate for the season and the threat. What you would keep in a preparedness kit in Buffalo, NY in February would not be the same as New Orleans in August. The car kit should be designed to supplement your personal kit, and to allow you to survive in your car or on the move for a given period, perhaps 3-7 days, while you wait for rescue or move to a better location.

The big difficulty we've run into is the frequency of moves we've had, space alloted us in quarters and weight allowances. Out of pure need things like our generator are now being stored at my father's home until we get a little more stable. Although, his house would likely be our secondary location - as you stated TR. I'm not sure if this is naive of me or not, but I'm assuming that if we are living on post our need for large, major things like generators should be lower. I wish we could have all the supplies with us for a long haul, but there is simply no room.

Since we anticipate another PCS soon, I also find myself in the position of starting to try and use up as much of the food storage I can to lighten our weight. I really wish we didn't have to do that, but I guess it helps with rotation and it helps the food budget on the way out! What stinks is trying to build it up again with each subsequent move.

We've been from Ft. Drum to Ft. Huachuca recently and the car kits and emergency supplies we keep in the car are very different. I don't dare get rid of the emergency blankets or other cold weather supplies though. With our PCS pattern, it is inevitable we'll end up using it again.

What we really need to buy is a trailer. Any recommendations? My husband has a full-size pickup truck but we wouldn't want to get anything too big, but we wouldn't want to kick ourselves later for going too small.

The Reaper

09-02-2007, 18:40

What we really need to buy is a trailer. Any recommendations? My husband has a full-size pickup truck but we wouldn't want to get anything too big, but we wouldn't want to kick ourselves later for going too small.

What do you want the trailer for?

PCS or evacuation?

TR

Shar

09-02-2007, 18:48

I was hoping we could cover both bases with one trailer.

To complicate matters, my husband would like it to be something he could keep the family camping gear in when we aren't moving (and maybe when we are) so it wouldn't take so long to pack up for camping trips. I should also say that our camping supplies can and do double as our emergency supplies and all of it, if not most of it, would also be what we'd take with us in case of an evacuation. So we feel like the purchase of a trailer is an emergency preparedness move we'd be making more then just buying a trailer for PCS moves.

So... we're looking for a PCSing, evacuation, camping trailer. :D

The Reaper

09-02-2007, 19:00

I was hoping we could cover both bases with one trailer.

To complicate matters, my husband would like it to be something he could keep the family camping gear in when we aren't moving (and maybe when we are) so it wouldn't take so long to pack up for camping trips.

So... we're looking for a PCSing, evacuation, camping trailer. :D

I would rent a trailer for PCS moves and doing a DITY. You can even haul all of the stuff that the movers won't take or that you don't trust then to haul.

If you want one to store stuff in or to evacuate in, you will need one that is weatherproof, theft resistant, and able to be slept in. You also need to be sure that you have a good prime mover that is safe to tow it when loaded. Do not forget that you will need a secure place to park it between moves.

That means probably a 12 footer or more with a side door, dual axle, with electric brakes if you are going to load it heavily.

TR

MAB32

09-02-2007, 21:37

I am so glad that somebody started this thread again. I am printing the pages out now for future referece.

Now on a side note. In NEO we experieced our version of the "Perfect Storm" over the lower Great Lakes. It was a very deep low with a record barometer reading at the end of December 31 and through January 1 1976/77. Temperatures droped throut the day until sundown when we hit record lows of -10 to -20 degrees without wind chill which was on most occassions at 30 to 45 knots. It started in the morning when people were on their way to work and
within an hour we had already 7+ inches and the street plows where now begining to loose the battle when the accumalations began to reach the 14-16 inches. In fact they ended up buried themselves. The snowflakes were at least two inches in diameter visibilty was absolute zero I remember that people were stranded everywhere there was a road or highway. It snowed a record total of acumalation of 4+ feet and that was the least amount some people recieved to my AO had a total of 5+ feet. Now here is where it gets interesting. Thirteen people died on interstates 77 & 76. They died either (most of them) form Hypothermia or Carbon Monoxide poisoning. They waited for 2 days for rescues that didn't come until the ONG started flying rescue missions and this was until the ONG pilots could make into work. The Govenor mobalized the entire ONG to come to our AO and when they did come they came by M-113's, tanks with plows on the front, massive road graders, or by Chinook and Hueys. Now these stranded drivers were ALL within a few hundred yards to one or more houses. It would appear that some either were afarid to ask for help or didn't want to leave there vehicle while they were safe and warm. The people that died of Hypothermia had used up all their gas and just waited it out with no supplies or even a blanket. They went to sleep freezing and never woke up.

Now, why would these people not leave their vehicles and head for a house?
This still blows my mind when I read books on our "Perfect Storm. What could they possibly have been thinking as they were dying within eyesight of a house with heat and smoke pouring out of the chimneys? :confused:

The Reaper

09-02-2007, 21:49

From your description and the depth of the snow, they may not have been able to see them.

The best advice is usually to remain with the vehicle.

It is understandable, but rare for rescue to take that long.

TR

TF Kilo

09-02-2007, 23:01

One more reason I am opting for a stack on my truck. Utility outweighs appearance...

it's recommended if you're stranded to dig your rig out in terms of the exhaust, keep the windows slightly cracked if possible, and run the engine sparingly to prevent CO buildup.

Diesel motors also are safer in that regard, because of the lesser CO count output.

nmap

09-03-2007, 11:37

Now, why would these people not leave their vehicles and head for a house?
This still blows my mind when I read books on our "Perfect Storm. What could they possibly have been thinking as they were dying within eyesight of a house with heat and smoke pouring out of the chimneys?

I wonder if it might be possible to explore the mirror image of your question.

Let us suppose we have two people in one of those houses you mention. They are well prepared and comfortable. And then comes a plaintive knocking on the door.

If they invite them in, the load on existing supplies increases. That probably won't be an issue in the short term - but longer term situations occur. Given the amount of supplies most people keep on hand, one might need to tap the long-term survival supplies earlier rather than later. And, too, the number needing help is indeterminate. It might be one or two...it might be a family with 4 hungry teenagers...it could be a bus with the local university's football team. Will the existing supplies suffice? Is one prepared to allocate based on need - or eloquence of whine?

I suppose we have all read horrific accounts of what happened to people who opened the door to strangers. While a Quiet Professional could surely deal with the matter, not everyone has the skills and abilities of a QP. So - is one inviting a pack of wolves into the house?

Of course, the other side of the coin is that one might meet some splendid people, and spend a day enjoying good conversation and fun - in essence, a party where new friends were made.

I am not advocating any course of action. But I suspect the issue of what one does when the knock on the door comes is worthy of consideration.

Pete

09-03-2007, 12:05

...If they invite them in, the load on existing supplies increases. That probably won't be an issue in the short term - but longer term situations occur. Given the amount of supplies most people keep on hand, one might need .....

A snow storm is a short term event - mostly. A few days and then things start picking back up.

I'm trying to remember the storm but it was about two years ago and a section of highway was blocked, I want to say somewhere in the S/W. People made their way from their cars to the nearest homes. A place was found for all.

By the time the storm was over IIRC one home had over 20 people in it. From the stories I recall, some of the homes got real low on food and they became very creative with menues.

Again - this is "Be Prepared". If you live near a section of highway that gets snowed over a couple of times a year would you have just a bit more emergency food and supplies on hand? Would you look out during a clear spell and see a car or two and go check them? Who would you find? A pregnant mother with two little kids travelling to see the grand parents for the holidays? Granted you could find the other extreme but "Be Prepared."

MAB32

09-04-2007, 14:22

Retired W4

09-04-2007, 16:13

Guys, got my dates a little mixed up. The temperature during the winters of 76 & 77 were the coldest on record for Ohio, not really a blizzard in any stretch of the imagination. My apologies!

Here is the real deal that I am talked about in my past thread. It happened in January of 1978:

http://www.ohiohistory.org/etcetera/exhibits/swio/pages/albums/1978_blizzard/1978_blizzard_albumPage01.html

http://www.bceo.org/78blizzardrev.html

I was living in Dayton at the time. Drove from Middletown to Dayton that night up I-75 by staying in the tracks of the few semi's crazy enough to still be on the road. Once home, the only thing that saved me was a 7-11 on the corner. They got snowed in too. "Oh, thank heaven for 7-11". I had just left the OHNG,Trp D, 1-238th Cav. My buddies out of Columbus did a lot of great flying to save people and livestock.

Obviously I'm not recommending anyone depend on a 7-11 for survival, but you sometimes get what you need in the strangest places.

OK, I'll try to stop posting for a while. Being retired is a bitch!

MAB32

09-06-2007, 16:24

Yep, she was a bad one. I remember the 107th ONG out Stow Ohio coming through on M-113's and large trucks on the third day. Then the air element of the 107th out of Akron Canton Airport provided air rescue. The same 10th ONG was the one at Kent State back in 1970.

Ambush Master

09-06-2007, 17:12

I was living in Dayton at the time. Drove from Middletown to Dayton that night up I-75 by staying in the tracks of the few semi's crazy enough to still be on the road. Once home, the only thing that saved me was a 7-11 on the corner. They got snowed in too. "Oh, thank heaven for 7-11". I had just left the OHNG,Trp D, 1-238th Cav. My buddies out of Columbus did a lot of great flying to save people and livestock.

Obviously I'm not recommending anyone depend on a 7-11 for survival, but you sometimes get what you need in the strangest places.

Hurricane Carla in 1961. My Dad was the Marshal of our town and when Marshal Law was declared, he had our next door neighbor, who was a locksmith, open the 7-11 at the entrance to our subdivision. We recorded who took what and after it returned to normal, about 60-90 days, everyone settled up with the owner.

I got ALL of the .22 ammo, Rats and Snakes were everywhere!!!:D

Later
Martin

MAB32

09-06-2007, 18:30

Hurricane Carla in 1961. My Dad was the Marshall of our town and when Marshall Law was declared, he had our next door neighbor, who was a locksmith, open the 7-11 at the entrance to our subdivision. We recorded who took what and after it returned to normal, about 60-90 days, everyone settled up with the owner.

Unfortunatly, that probably would never happen again in this day and age with the probable exception of within a small rural town.

Razor

09-08-2007, 21:08

The Reaper

09-08-2007, 21:22

Gypsy

09-08-2007, 21:44

Thanks for sharing your list, Razor.

nmap

09-08-2007, 22:01

x SF med

09-12-2007, 10:41

Went to the Collector's West Show this past weekend (another member of the board got a last minute table) and after much perusing and thought picked up a decent medical kit (finally) for a reasonable price (around $200, after my tailoring of included items - no pharmaceuticals of the prescription variety were available) I will pm anybody the vendor's name - he is essentially off grid and only deals in cash and Postal money orders...

The kit is essentially an M-17 fold out: basic items for vitals, basic trauma supplies, surgical kit, cleaning items, splinting items, basic first aid supplies - The kit comes in an ok bag - and it is self packable if needed, plenty of room. I saved over $150 by getting this one versus buuilding from scratch.

Oh, I also picked up some South African .308 / 7.62x51 for $65/140rds, in the sleeve. MRE's for the toy.

Sionnach

09-13-2007, 11:38

Thanks, Razor.

kgoerz

09-13-2007, 17:30

A while ago, I figured I should make a list of the equipment and supplies I had on-hand that would be useful in a survival/disaster situation so I could more accurately assess what I still needed to get. Later, this morphed into a generic tool to get people started on thinking about their preparedness in relation to equipment. This list is by no means the final, comprehensive solution for everyone in every location, but it can be a start down the path of analyzing what you may need should a disaster strike your location. In fact, its not even the best tool for my own needs, but it does help me continually refine my disaster preparation.

Good info. I have an old Range Bag packed full of Med Supplies. But it's mostly items for Trauma or minor cuts and Burns. The only Meds I have are over the counter. Your Med list is the first I seen with a simple explanation for what the Drugs are best used for. Are prescriptions required for all Antibiotics? Do you have a recommendation for an Antibiotic for infections, prescription or non? Infections from cuts, burns...etc.

Razor

09-14-2007, 23:43

Good info. I have an old Range Bag packed full of Med Supplies. But it's mostly items for Trauma or minor cuts and Burns. The only Meds I have are over the counter. Your Med list is the first I seen with a simple explanation for what the Drugs are best used for. Are prescriptions required for all Antibiotics? Do you have a recommendation for an Antibiotic for infections, prescription or non? Infections from cuts, burns...etc.

Whoa, easy Brother...those are questions better answered your pointy-stick-wielding range partner. Rumor has it he knows things. :)

Doczilla

09-16-2007, 23:56

While the list others have provided so far is comprehensive and excellent, I can speak only to choices for medications to carry.

Pain Control:
Tylenol, plenty of it
Advil, plenty of it. May be taken up to 800mg 3x daily for severe pain, barring kidney issues. May also be combined with tylenol for additive effect
Vicodin or percocet (rx): narcotic combinations with tylenol. I like percocet, as it has less tylenol than vicodin (325 vs 500mg), and allow the flexibility to take more than 2 at once if needed.
Aspirin. Not only is this a great anti-inflammatory and pain med, but useful for treating chest pain from suspected cardiac causes. This is a lifesaver, and if you can't get to definitive care, the ONLY lifesaver.

Benadryl (otc). Good as an antihistamine for allergies, rashes, sleep aid, cough, minor upper respiratory infections, and migraine headaches.
Claritin (otc) non-sedating antihistamine good for rashes, allergies, and minor cough but where you need to stay active.

Phenergan tablets (rx). Actually also an antihistamine, good for nausea and migraine headaches.

Zofran ODT (rx). Expensive nonsedating nausea drug which can be used on children, adults, and the elderly with virtually no side effects. Dissolves on the tongue wtihout the need for swallowing when you're puking your guts out.

Pepto bismol (otc). Good for nausea, indigestion, diarrhea. Has some antimicrobial effect as well for some types on infectious diarrhea.

Immodium (otc). Good for diarrhea and cramping related to it.

Miralax (otc). A good non-cramping stool-softener type laxative. Not as compact as other laxatives, but you'll thank yourself if you need it.

Lotrimin, lamisil, tinactin (otc). Skin that is warm, damp, and poorly cleaned is a magnet for fungal infection. Athlete's foot, jock itch, inframammary smegma, are quite treatable.

TempDent or ZOE (otc). Temporary painkilling dental filling material, available at any drug store. If you've got a broken off tooth or cavity, this will save you a lot of misery before you can get to the dentist.

Antibiotics (all rx):
Consider the types of infections that you will see in a disaster situation. Pneumonia is possible, but far more likely are skin and soft tissue infections, wound infections, UTI, and gastroenteritis, particularly from waterborne parasites/bacteria/viruses.
Amoxicillin/clavanulate (Augmentin) is useful for treating strep throat, ear infections, UTI, most skin infections. $4 at Wal Mart
Bactrim (trimethaprim/sulfamethoxazole) good for skin abscesses caused by MRSA (though should be combined with clindamycin or augmentin for skin infxn), pneumonia, UTI, acute severe diarrhea. $4 at Wal Mart
Clindamycin, good for skin infections (including those caused by MRSA), pneumonia, strep throat, UTI. $4 at Wal Mart
Ciprofloxacin, good for skin and soft tissue infections, acute severe diarrhea, UTI, serious abdominal infections such as appendicitis (this does little but prolong time to surgery, BTW)
Doxycycline. Good for skin and soft tissue infections including those caused by MRSA, URI, pneumonia, UTI, and yes, anthrax and plague. As well as gonorrhea and chlamidya. $4 at Wal Mart.
Metronidazole (Flagyl). Treats certain causes of waterborne diarrheal illness like giardia, entamoeba, and others. Also treats trichomonas, a sexually transmitted disease.
Nitazoxanide (rx). Will be helpful if you get cryptosporidium from your water source. This bug laughs at chlorine, by the way.
Mupirocin cream (bactroban) (rx). Apply to cellulitis and that which would be abscess. It will help.
Silvadene cream (rx). Antimicrobial cream for burns. Skip the "burn cream" in most first aid kits, which is essentially a local anesthetic and does nothing else. Lacking this, bacitracin will work.
Neosporin (otc) or bacitracin (rx). Doesn't matter which one you pick here. These will save you much misery if applied to open wounds before they become infected.

Steroids:
Triamcinalone cream is useful for a variety of rashes.
Prednisone oral tablets. a 5 day course will knock out serious allergic reactions, bad asthma, major rashes, and other inflammatory conditions gone awry.

'zilla

MAB32

09-17-2007, 08:50

Razor,

ok, I'll bite.

Under #6(i) you have "krill" Lights. How many do you have and what color are they? Also, are they the "360" kind or the smaller "180"(?)?:munchin

MAB

Shar

09-17-2007, 09:53

The Reaper

09-17-2007, 10:18

We're seriously lacking in the medications department for emergency preparedness - so the list Doczilla posted is much appreciated.

I can start acquiring the OTC items Doczilla listed, but any suggestions on how to go about getting the Rx meds? Short of just hoarding a few pills each time someone in the family is prescribed something, is there a better method? Are physicians more amenable to handing out RXs for emergency preparedness then I'm assuming they would be? I know there are some foreign on-line pharmacies but they seem super-shady. A doc in the family would sure come in handy right now. :p

Recommendations?

Do not EVER hoard pills or short a prescription for ABX. Take the full course unless a problem occurs, and then go back to the physician ASAP.

As for the other stuff, you may be able to get your family practioner or a friendly physician to write you a scrip for meds every now and then.

One option I have found that will work is to tell them that you are going overseas on a trip, and would like to take a basic load of preventative meds. That would cover most everything but the narcotics and antibiotics.

Do not neglect that the first step in treatment and self-medication is to accurately diagnose the cause of your med problem. There is no point in launching an ABX regimen for a common cold, and some meds may temporarily mask the symptoms of more serious problems, possibly to the point that a life-threatening problem may occur.

Should your husband make it through SFAS, the SFQC, and on to a team, his 18D should be very helpful in this area of expertise.

Best of luck.

TR

Razor

09-17-2007, 21:55

Razor,

ok, I'll bite.

Under #6(i) you have "krill" Lights. How many do you have and what color are they? Also, are they the "360" kind or the smaller "180"(?)?:munchin

MAB

Personally, I have 4-5 (mix of red and green) left over from a previous need for nighttime safety marking. They're short (~6") and are 360 coverage. I don't consider them essential, though--I left them on the list to show folks an alternative to one-use chemlights.

Doczilla

09-17-2007, 22:15

A quick note: the above list of antibiotics is extensive to give many choices in case you are allergic to one or two or happen to have some around the house. You don't need that many different antibiotics. 2 or 3 will do the trick.

I completely agree with TR that you should not short any prescription, particularly antibiotics, just to hoard them.

Your family physician may be very amenable to providing you with the meds. Be open and honest about what they are for, under what circumstances they would be used, and why you are preparing. In this day and age of disaster preparedness, it is not an unreasonable request. Hurricanes, tornadoes, ice storms, and public health emergencies are all very real, tangible examples of the need for this sort of thing. The physician may help you out and may even have some good recommendations for you as well. This only applies if this is your doctor with whom you have cultivated a long term physician-patient relationship, who has seen you in the office as scheduled and finds you reasonable and reliable.

Physicians, when they know the patient well, will often write prescriptions for disaster preparedness, travel, marine first aid or survival kits. It would be a good idea to track the meds and if used, report that back to the physician when they were used, on whom, and what for. When possible, call your doctor first and explain the symptoms. He may want to see the patient (if possible), or may recommend that you go ahead and start taking the medications. (He will be able to provide this only if he has seen the patient before or plans to see them in the near future. It's illegal to prescribe anything to a patient that the doctor has not seen, i.e., doesn't have a physician-patient relationship with. If you're calling him about some random coolio on the street, it had better be the mother of all disasters for him to give advice or recommendations.) Contacting the physician may have to wait until a reasonable time in a disaster. If your meds expire and you want him to write new ones, bring the old ones back as a gesture of good faith to help show that no, you did not swallow all 60 Percocet for fun.

Note that the FDA and USP will only guarantee potency to the expiration date. If properly stored in a cool, dark, dry place, the meds may last much longer. Take your own chances with this.

Their comfort level with prescribing you certain drugs, particularly controlled ones, will vary. Do not expect that they will prescribe you fentanyl lollipops just because an 18D told you they would be useful. Injectable meds may potentially be prescribed for marine or wilderness FAKs, but don't count on it. Do not ask a "doctor buddy" to write them for you. In order to dispense controlled meds, there must be a legitimate physician-patient relationship, i.e., documented history, physical, etc. The DEA does not have a sense of humor about this sort of thing, and it's something that will get a doctor's license yanked on the first offense. I'm not saying that it's not done, but I am saying it's a tough position to put your doctor buddy in.

'zilla

MAB32

09-28-2007, 21:26

Doczilla

09-28-2007, 22:11

Doczilla and other members of the the Medical Profession, I have a question for all of you:

If one takes antibiotics and almost everytime ends up with "C-Diff", what other medications would one want to stock up on for such an occurence besides Flagyl?

Probiotics. Cultures of helpful bacteria (lactobacillus, etc.) have been shown to prevent or ameliorate mild cases of Clostridium difficile diarrhea. Culturelle is one brand name. There are others, but truthfully I'd have to look up which ones are effective and which are heath food store crap.

If any case of c.diff could be described as mild.

'zilla

MAB32

09-29-2007, 08:31

Doc,

I have had C-Diff at least four times now and it is downright disabiling. Each time it felt just like the flu but 20 times worse. I would think in a survival situation one might not make it if one came down with it. IMHO of course.:(

MAB32

09-29-2007, 14:58

The Reaper

09-29-2007, 20:52

I remember reading somewhere that the Israelis were told, taught, or something of the sort, that they could use their vacuum cleaners as a source for fresh air coming into the house through a hole in the wall as a means to clean the air from any NBC attack before it entered the house and/or room. I guess it would have to do with the HEPA filter and its size. Anybody else heard this before? Maybe we are on to something with that set up?:)

Sounds like a positive overpressure filtration system.

That may work for dry particulates, but I doubt that it will for nerve agents, and almost certainly will do nothing for blood agents.

You may get some protection from biologicals, depending on how tight your home is, by constructing a positive overpressure system, and it should keep radiological particles (but not rays) out, but chemical weapons will probably be enhanced by that technique, as the agents are sucked into the house and concentrated there.

So you have some N, and B, but not C protection, IMHO.

TR

MAB32

10-02-2007, 09:21

The Reaper

10-02-2007, 09:35

What if you were able to fit a filter from a gas mask such as the NATO standard 40mm thread width onto the end of the stiff plastic extension of the hose? If you could do that along with the ability to keep the motor cool it just may work. Or if you were to use some other material to use as a "pre-filter" to eliminate "C" you would still have something that just might do it for a day or two. Especially if you had a sealed room to go to in your house, like the Israelis advocate in having, you wouldn't need much more.:munchin

A mask filter is built to deal with one person breathing, and to filter out certain compounds for a specific period. Some agents, like blood agents, incidentally attack the active ingredients of the filter, shortening its lifespan even faster.

I am sure that a vacuum cleaner sucks as much air in a minute as most of us do in an hour, so you would exceed the CFM of the filter, the filtration capacity, as well as the life of the filter element pretty quickly.

IMHO, it would be akin to trying to use a lawnmower air filter on a full sized truck engine.

It is a lot more efficient to design a mask and filter to deal with one human inhaling and exhaling for a finite period of time rather than an overpressure system conditioning all of the air for an entire house (or even one room) for an extended period.

If you have masks for everyone, and filters, that is probably a much better solution (especially if you have a detector or alarm to let you know when you need to mask), instead of using the filters to try and filter all of the air in the house.

There are some larger application filters that may work. I would only try the method you suggest as a last resort.

HTH.

TR

Doczilla

10-02-2007, 14:53

Time may be better spent on preparation for effective decontamination rather than providing a filtered air supply. There is greater risk from ingestion or cutaneous exposure to most NBC agents than inhalation.

'zilla

brownapple

10-03-2007, 09:54

Now on a side note. In NEO we experieced our version of the "Perfect Storm" over the lower Great Lakes. It was a very deep low with a record barometer reading at the end of December 31 and through January 1 1976/77. Temperatures droped throut the day until sundown when we hit record lows of -10 to -20 degrees without wind chill which was on most occassions at 30 to 45 knots. It started in the morning when people were on their way to work and within an hour we had already 7+ inches and the street plows where now begining to loose the battle when the accumalations began to reach the 14-16 inches. In fact they ended up buried themselves. The snowflakes were at least two inches in diameter visibilty was absolute zero I remember that people were stranded everywhere there was a road or highway. It snowed a record total of acumalation of 4+ feet and that was the least amount some people recieved to my AO had a total of 5+ feet. Now here is where it gets interesting. Thirteen people died on interstates 77 & 76. They died either (most of them) form Hypothermia or Carbon Monoxide poisoning. They waited for 2 days for rescues that didn't come until the ONG started flying rescue missions and this was until the ONG pilots could make into work. The Govenor mobalized the entire ONG to come to our AO and when they did come they came by M-113's, tanks with plows on the front, massive road graders, or by Chinook and Hueys. Now these stranded drivers were ALL within a few hundred yards to one or more houses. It would appear that some either were afarid to ask for help or didn't want to leave there vehicle while they were safe and warm. The people that died of Hypothermia had used up all their gas and just waited it out with no supplies or even a blanket. They went to sleep freezing and never woke up.

Now, why would these people not leave their vehicles and head for a house?
This still blows my mind when I read books on our "Perfect Storm. What could they possibly have been thinking as they were dying within eyesight of a house with heat and smoke pouring out of the chimneys?

I was living in Dayton at the time. Drove from Middletown to Dayton that night up I-75 by staying in the tracks of the few semi's crazy enough to still be on the road. Once home, the only thing that saved me was a 7-11 on the corner. They got snowed in too. "Oh, thank heaven for 7-11". I had just left the OHNG,Trp D, 1-238th Cav. My buddies out of Columbus did a lot of great flying to save people and livestock.

I was an ROTC cadet at Bowling Green State University at that time (site of the heaviest snowfall - we didn't get the NG to dig us out, we got the 82d Airborne). My fellow cadets pulled duty monitoring various radios, going out with the National Guard in Duece and a halves, and those of us who had cross-country skis (three of us that I recall) would ski from the truck on the roadbed to houses to check on anyone in them. We delivered needed meds, food, etc. to a number of people who were shut in by the snow.

A number of houses were so buried by snow drifts that they weren't visible from one side (often the side facing the road). In that part of the state, vehicles that went off the roads often dropped completely out of sight. In one case, I went past a house that we could see from the road, turned around and could not only not see the house, could not see the road. If I hadn't been aware of the cardinal direction that I had gone out (West) and how the road ran (North- South), I might not have got back to the truck. A number of vehicles were off of I-75, not far from BG. Anyone who remembers I-75 back then in that area can tell you that it is very possible even without snow to have been driving within a few hundred meters of a house and never see it. Add drifts that sometimes exceeded 20 feet (no exagerration, I skied up some of those slopes) and it is quite understandable why people stayed in their cars. As a matter of fact, going from one dorm to another on campus (a trip of 100 meters between five story buildings with absolutely flat ground between them) was physically impossible without some sort of physical assistance.

MAB32

10-03-2007, 12:58

Well, I own nine gas maks and for my family that is plenty with the others handed out to family and friends, within reason of course. My top of the line being an AVON S-10. I can run with that one on. My M-17's are in excellent shape too.

By the way, when I went down to DRMO to pick up 500+ filters I was told by the gentlemen loading them unto are truck and after he had
finished he said I had to sign an EPA form. I was totally unaware of why he had stated"EPA". I then began asking a million questions!

In a nutshell, he basically told me that once the filters are opened and used, they are now considered a "HazMat" problem. He futher advised that I was to in no way dispose of these filters in a landfill, garbage can, or even burying them. Can not remember now why, but it had something to do with moisture in the filter breaking down one of the componets and creates a carcinogen after a while (a few weeks to a few months, max).

Anybody know about what this chemical created was called?:munchin

soldier506

10-28-2007, 13:01

Disaster prepairdness is something everone should have information about. It is something I try to take very seriously. The reality is that the majority of western soceity just does not care until it is to late. Our modern lifestyles have put us all at risk . We are accustomed to climate controlled buildings, food at the local store , gas readily avaliable and cell phones to yap with. The list is endless of things we now depend on everyday . All it takes is a short disruption of just one thing to make our lives miserable. Power outages occur durning storms yet people still complain that they can not watch MTV . Hurricane Katreana showed western soceity how vunerable and illprepaired we are. Do not forget the large power blackout in N.East USA and S. East Canada a few years ago. If the power was out longer, we would be rioting in the streets.

Everyone must do their share for prepairdness. To me, the 72 hr supply is a start but not enough . Have plans for at least a weeks provisions at all times. Ensure you have the right tools and skills along with the basic food . If you do not have any idea what to do, then buy at least a few books on survival and prepairdness . Look online at many web forums for information. There is no sush thing as too much information . Sooner or latter your lives will depend on it.

The Reaper

11-05-2007, 14:06

Winter weather will soon be arriving.

Are you prepared?

In 2002, we experienced an ice storm that took out power for days.

Are you ready?

If it happens, will you be safe and sound, in relative comfort, or lined up at the grocery store fighting over flashlights, batteries, toilet paper, bread, milk, eggs, etc.?

Remember that an ounce of knowledge is better than a metric ton of high speed gear that you cannot use.

The time to think about this is now.

As far as this thread goes, we have about ended the medical supply discussion.

Is there anything left that people want to chat about further?

Breathable Air
First Aid/Medicine/Escape gear
Defense
Shelter/Warmth/Light
Water
Food/cooking
Sanitation
Commo
Power/Fuel
Tools
Transportation/Mobility
Entertainment

If not, I would request that members who experience preparedness situations (even brief ones) provide us as much feedback as they are able to help others prepare.

TR

MAB32

11-05-2007, 21:04

I have a small question TR, to other QP's, and to any US Military personnel that I am hoping can answer.

I own two pairs of the "Mickey Mouse" boots, one white pair and one black pair. Both of which we all know are very heavy but also very warm. My question is this: "Are their any other pairs of boots out there that is both lightweight and have the same cold weather rating as either the black or white pairs?"

mugwump

11-07-2007, 14:20

I posted instructions for a water purification system here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=137323&postcount=264).

"Pros: Cheap; no fuel consumed; no labor expended in the purification process (once you hump the water); the system is suitable for long-term storage without component degradation; simple, with no moving parts or consumables; large volumes purified quickly (3-4 gallons per hour, faster than a Berkely/Katadyn gravity filter); light weight; very long usage life span.

Cons: a bit bulky (but then this isn't a backpacking system)"

I'll add another "con" of this system: the fast filtration rate is driven by a siphon that is started by sucking on the discharge tube. This means you have to pre-treat the fist (small) volume of water used to start the siphon. If you don't pre-treat, you could get a mouthful of Hep A virus as you start the siphon (viruses are not filtered out -- they are killed by the chlorine from the hypochlorite in the final step). Also, the first time you use the filter you need to apply some hefty suction (not quite the level of golf ball/garden hose, Las Vegas keno girl/chrome trailer hitch but still significant) to start the whole process. But once you get it going it runs like a champ and can produce large volumes overnight (assuming your source and destination containers are big enough).

At the cost of a slower filtration rate -- approx 1-2 gallon per hour -- you can build a cheap, ceramic drip-filter system that relies totally on gravity. The kit can be purchased here (http://shop.monolithic.com/products/just-water-ceramic-drip-filter). You supply your own plastic buckets. It looks like you could add another ceramic filter and double the flow rate.

You're essentially getting a Berkely for $20 and a bit of your time.

8455

The Reaper

11-08-2007, 09:42

You're essentially getting a Berkely for $20 and a bit of your time.

8455

Not exactly.

I was with you till I hit the ordering page.

I found $13 to ship something that small, inexpensive, and lightweight a bit steep, especially from a company that helps people build their own yurts.

Ouch!

TR

mugwump

11-08-2007, 11:24

Not exactly.

I was with you till I hit the ordering page.

I found $13 to ship something that small, inexpensive, and lightweight a bit steep, especially from a company that helps people build their own yurts.

Ouch!

TR

Yikes. I actually put the text together a while back and just got around to posting it (I've got trunking-scanner and comms ones in the queue that need cleanup and posting, too.) I'll check, but I didn't pay any $13.

Shipping ripoffs are real pet peeve of mine. They must have 60" plasmas in their personal yurts.

ETA: They say they had to raise shipping to pass through increased charges due to the box size needed for the filter plus padding (the filter is very brittle). He knows they're losing sales, but won't budge. The filter is about the size of a roll of toilet paper; seems fishy but then who knows...

The Reaper

11-08-2007, 11:45

echoes

11-08-2007, 13:14

If not, I would request that members who experience preparedness situations (even brief ones) provide us as much feedback as they are able to help others prepare.TR

Peeking in here slowly...

Am constantly re-reading this thread, as it is full of great information.

For those of us who park outside, and not in a garage...Windshield wiper blades.
During the winter, always have a spare set in the vehicle in case the ice and snow disable one while the vehicle is parked or while driving in the weather.
(And know how to replace it, of course. ;) )

My Dad brought this to my attention when I moved back here to the midwest.

A very small thing, but when you have to be somewhere, very handy.

Holly

PSM

11-08-2007, 22:13

With the recent wildfires here in SoCal, it should be noted that some houses were saved by the early application of sodium polyacrylate gel. It’s basically the stuff that fills absorbent diapers. Some fire departments carried this gel to cover homes in the path of the fire.

At least one manufacturer of the gel, Barricade, sells a homeowner kit for about $330. It can be applied at least 6 to 8 hours ahead of the fire insuring that the water pressure will probably still be high enough to apply it. The shelf life is 3 years.

Pat

kachingchingpow

11-16-2007, 07:05

Just after Y2K, I was able to pickup a 5kw generator for a steal. Knock on wood, I've only had to use it once due to an ice storm that we're so famous for here in the south. At anyrate, I'm having a new HVAC unit installed and I ask the installer how I could hookup the furnace to run from my generator quickly. He'd never thought about it before, so we kinda put our heads together on this. Here's a synopsis of what I'm planning to do over the weekend. We both agreed that it was a small enough job that "being prepared" ahead of time would be easy.

I'm going to cut the female off a 25' extension cord and wire it as a pigtail to the main electrical box in the furnace. Prior to doing so, I'm going to install a switch between the pigtail and the box, so that I don't have a hot plug dangling around.

I think that's it. At first I was thinking I'd need another switch on the main electrical line coming into the furnace to prevent a backfeed, but that's already in place on the wall.

Can anyone think of anything else? Any experiences pos/neg you can share?

MAB32

11-16-2007, 09:43

RTK

11-16-2007, 11:01

Echoes,

I also know of a bunch of cops who park outside too. And in the winter time they lift the blades off of the windshield so when they come back out eight hours later they aren't trying to free them. All they have to do is scrap and heat the front window and the wipers are good to go. :cool:

Something I learned in the field at Fort Carson and a TTP I teach new scout LTs is to take cut up MRE boxes and place them on the outside of the windshield between the wiper and the glass on our HMMWVs. Since the gunner is scanning, it does not deplete force protection. Not only that, in insulates the inside of the vehicle to a certain extent. On real cold nights we place it on both the inside and outside of the windows so the condensation from normal breathing doesn't frost the inside of the windows. When it's time to go, we tear it off and drive.

echoes

12-12-2007, 20:50

(2nd times a charm.)

Thought I was prepared for the "Ice Storm" that hit. Woa was I wrong,
but knew it would be okay.
In a 24 hour peroid, my AO was turned upside down.

I learned that when one is alone in bed at night, with ice falling, power lines snapping, and transformers lighting up the night sky, there are no worries...
"The back-up plan" was going to take effect:
(also, red-neck engineering comes in handy right about now!)

Needless to say after four days of no heat, power or running water, (and when wanting to sacrifie a lamb in the front yard to the "power-gods",) the truth becomes clear...

Always have a "Back-Up Plan!"

Mine saved my a** from becoming a casulty popsicle.

Hence the reality of this story...this thread saved my a**.

echoes

12-13-2007, 16:28

Now that my pulse has slowed, I wanted to share some small things I learned from this experience:

1. Have a great ice-scraper for your vehicle...not good, but great!
(And keep it inside your residence...not in the vehicle.)
2. Have a back-up phone, if you are like me and connect the home phone though the cable company...Hint: When IT goes out, so does the phone.
3. Know the status and location of loved ones. When a rescue is needed, it will be to your benefit to know the exact location and resources available, to render them to safety.
4. Finally, understand the situation as a whole. This will benefit you in all areas...from checking your family into hotels, to dealing with clean-up crews. The more you know, the better your chances of a succesful survival.

And yes, I did have extra wiper blades.:o

Holly

Pete

12-13-2007, 17:01

.....And yes, I did have extra wiper blades.:o

Holly

Holly/All;

I was raised in the UP and learned at an early age to turn off everything before you shut off your car in the winter. On a real cold morning if you have everything on high and turned the key through the Acc. position you could drain it just enough to be stuck.

On another note on this subject. If you shut off your car but leave the wipers "On" during an ice or snow storm the blades can freeze to the windshield. When you jump in the car to turn it on so it can warm up while you clean off the ice you can blow the fuze to the wipers.

Some of those fuze boxes are at the darndest angle down there near the floorboard.

Pete

A power down, extra fuze, flashlight plug.

Gypsy

12-13-2007, 19:03

2. Have a back-up phone, if you are like me and connect the home phone though the cable company...Hint: When IT goes out, so does the phone.
3
Holly

That is exactly why I refuse to bundle my services. Especially since it seems Comcast loses service if one sneezes too hard. :rolleyes:

Glad you survived the storm, luckily it missed us for the most part.

Holly/All;

I was raised in the UP and learned at an early age to turn off everything before you shut off your car in the winter. On a real cold morning if you have everything on high and turned the key through the Acc. position you could drain it just enough to be stuck.

On another note on this subject. If you shut off your car but leave the wipers "On" during an ice or snow storm the blades can freeze to the windshield. When you jump in the car to turn it on so it can warm up while you clean off the ice you can blow the fuze to the wipers.

Some of those fuze boxes are at the darndest angle down there near the floorboard.

Pete

A power down, extra fuze, flashlight plug.

Many moons ago when my dad taught me to drive, he expressed the exact same points. Good advice all around.

echoes

12-14-2007, 14:34

That is exactly why I refuse to bundle my services. Especially since it seems Comcast loses service if one sneezes too hard.

Glad you survived the storm, luckily it missed us for the most part.

Gypsy,

It is so true about the "bundled services." Cox practically has a monopoly here, but I am switching my phone back to AT&T. Funnier still is that even though my apt. has power...still not cable/phone/net. :rolleyes:
(Staying with my sis right now.)

I hope your AO continues with its good fortune...I wouldn't wish this war-zone aftermath on anyone I know...and here comes another storm.

EDIT to add: Also, there is nothing like the sound of a "chainsaw symphony" to lull one to sleep..we should cut a demo!:eek:

Holly

warrottjr

12-15-2007, 12:10

As an old commo maintenance warrant (256A), I can assure you that bundled services do not meet the Army's standards for continutity of operations (COOP). I have a cable modem with land line dial-up for backup. If the land line goes out, I can still get out using Net2Phone.

The Reaper

12-15-2007, 13:13

I have bundled service, and figure that a UPS on the modem, a couple of cells, a linesman's phone, some CB and FRS radios should be adequate for PACE.

The hardlines will only be good as long as the lines are up, and the batteries and/or generator at the local switching office lasts.

Don't overly rely on any one means of support.

TR

echoes

12-16-2007, 19:33

Don't overly rely on any one means of support.
TR

So true Sir.

Honestly, the advice given in this thread is without a pricetag. Invaluable for anyone IMHO.

And Gypsy... Hope you are okay now that this storm is headed to your AO.:(

Holly

The Reaper

12-17-2007, 20:59

Yikes. I actually put the text together a while back and just got around to posting it (I've got trunking-scanner and comms ones in the queue that need cleanup and posting, too.) I'll check, but I didn't pay any $13.

Shipping ripoffs are real pet peeve of mine. They must have 60" plasmas in their personal yurts.

ETA: They say they had to raise shipping to pass through increased charges due to the box size needed for the filter plus padding (the filter is very brittle). He knows they're losing sales, but won't budge. The filter is about the size of a roll of toilet paper; seems fishy but then who knows...

Well, it looked so neat that I bought the "special packaging" story and ordered one. $19.95 of product in $13 shipping.

The box is plain cardboard, approx. 10"x10"x7.5" deep. Weight less than 3 pounds. Packaging consisted of roughly 8 feet of crumpled brown paper, with the sock and spigot tossed in. The filter itself was in bubble wrap in a white cardboard box 4"x4"x5.5" packed in the aforementioned brown paper. Sent UPS Ground service.

If it cost $13 to pack and ship, they must have taken it unboxed to the most expensive Mail Boxes Etc. in town and waited with a big "Screw Me" sign.

Definitely a shipping rip-off.

No markings on any of the components, but I strongly suspect that the filter and spigot are COTs purchased in bulk in the plain commerical wrapping.

Not sure about the cost of brown paper or cardboard boxes, but the shipping itself was probably less than $7.

TR

Peregrino

01-11-2008, 21:10

For those of you who take a mid-long term view on preparedness here's an article sent to me by a friend. Real scientists have been waving the BS Flag at Al Gore et al. for a while now. The potential implications if this report turns out to be accurate are enormous. The one thing the NP committee got right is the social disruption caused by climate change. Food for thought - Peregrino

http://www.spaceandscience.net/id16.html

PRESS RELEASE: SSRC 1-2008

Changes in the Sun’s Surface to Bring Next Climate Change

January 2, 2008

Today, the Space and Science Research Center, (SSRC) in Orlando, Florida announces that it has confirmed the recent web announcement of NASA solar physicists that there are substantial changes occurring in the sun’s surface. The SSRC has further researched these changes and has concluded they will bring about the next climate change to one of a long lasting cold era.

Today, Director of the SSRC, John Casey has reaffirmed earlier research he led that independently discovered the sun’s changes are the result of a family of cycles that bring about climate shifts from cold climate to warm and back again.

“We today confirm the recent announcement by NASA that there are historic and important changes taking place on the sun’s surface. This will have only one outcome - a new climate change is coming that will bring an extended period of deep cold to the planet. This is not however a unique event for the planet although it is critically important news to this and the next generations. It is but the normal sequence of alternating climate changes that has been going on for thousands of years. Further according to our research, this series of solar cycles are so predictable that they can be used to roughly forecast the next series of climate changes many decades in advance. I have verified the accuracy of these cycles’ behavior over the last 1,100 years relative to temperatures on Earth, to well over 90%.”

As to what these changes are Casey says, “The sun’s surface flows have slowed dramatically as NASA has indicated. This process of surface movement, what NASA calls the “conveyor belt” essentially sweeps up old sunspots and deposits new ones. NASA’s studies have found that when the surface movement slows down, sunspot counts drop significantly. All records of sunspot counts and other proxies of solar activity going back 6,000 years clearly validates our own findings that when we have sunspot counts lower then 50 it means only one thing - an intense cold climate, globally. NASA says the solar cycle 25, the one after the next that starts this spring will be at 50 or lower. The general opinion of the SSRC scientists is that it could begin even sooner within 3 years with the next solar cycle 24. What we are saying today is that my own research and that of the other scientists at the SSRC verifies that NASA is right about one thing – a solar cycle of 50 or lower is headed our way. With this next solar minimum predicted by NASA, what I call a “solar hibernation,” the SSRC forecasts a much colder Earth just as it has transpired before for thousands of years. If NASA is the more accurate on the schedule, then we may see even warmer temperatures before the bottom falls out. If the SSRC and other scientists around the world are correct then we have only a few years to prepare before 20-30 years of lasting and possibly dangerous cold arrive.”

When asked about what this will mean to the average person on the street, Casey was firm. “The last time this particular cycle regenerated was over 200 years ago. I call it the “Bi-Centennial Cycle” solar cycle. It took place between 1793 and 1830, the so-called Dalton Minimum, a period of extreme cold that resulted in what historian John D. Post called the ‘last great subsistence crisis.’ With that cold came massive crops losses, food riots, famine and disease. I believe this next climate change will be much stronger and has the potential to once more cause widespread crop losses globally with the resultant ill effects. The key difference for this next Bi-Centennial Cycle’s impact versus the last is that we will have over 8 billion mouths to feed in the next coldest years where as we had only 1 billion the last time. Among other effects like social and economic disruption, we are facing the real prospect of the ‘perfect storm of global food shortages’ in the next climate change. In answer to the question, everyone on the street will be affected.”

Given the importance of the next climate change Casey was asked whether the government has been notified. “Yes, as soon as my research revealed these solar cycles and the prediction of the coming cold era with the next climate change, I notified all the key offices in the Bush administration including both parties in the Senate and House science committees as well as most of the nation’s media outlets. Unfortunately, because of the intensity of coverage of the UN IPCC and man made global warming during 2007, the full story about climate change is very slow in getting told. These changes in the sun have begun. They are unstoppable. With the word finally starting to get out about the next climate change, hopefully we will have time to prepare. Right now, the newly organized SSRC is the leading independent research center in the US and possibly worldwide, that is focused on the next climate change. Some of the world’s brightest scientists, also experts in solar physics and the next climate change have joined with me. In the meantime we will do our best to spread the word along with NASA and others who can see what is about to take place for the Earth’s climate. Soon, I believe this will be recognized as the most important climate story of this century.”

More information on the Space and Science Research Center is available at: www.spaceandscience.net

The previous NASA announcement was made at:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10may_longrange.htm

January 7 Update: Responses to Press Release. Please accept our thanks for the many who have responded to the company's first release of 2008. The first ten replies strongly endorsed (9 to 1 in favor) of what the SSRC is trying to do. For those who have sent in questions about the web site and the newly started SSRC we have taken those comments and where appropirate made immediate changes to improve the web site. Everyone's assistance in making the SSRC web site better is appreciated. Keep it up!

brownapple

01-11-2008, 23:29

We today confirm the recent announcement by NASA that there are historic and important changes taking place on the sun’s surface. This will have only one outcome - a new climate change is coming that will bring an extended period of deep cold to the planet.

So, are we going to see suggestions for increasing the carbon released into the atmosphere to keep temps up?

;)

sofmed

02-06-2008, 17:12

“We today confirm the recent announcement by NASA that there are historic and important changes taking place on the sun’s surface. This will have only one outcome - a new climate change is coming that will bring an extended period of deep cold to the planet.

That'll make things a little more tolerable during my next deployment to the sandbox, unless of course it's during the winter months...bar-dah!! With my terp standing right here he says that's really the only way to spell "cold" from Arabic into English. :(

Going to do PT now. Only real way to keep warm right now. :lifter

PSM

02-12-2008, 12:25

I found this recipe a couple of years ago and gave it a try. I cut the bars into eight 125 cal. cubes. I wrapped the cubes in aluminum foil (mistake) then froze half and stored half in the pantry.

After 12 month, the remaining cubes in the pantry were still edible. (My son had used a few as snacks at school.) After 18 months a little mold was forming on the pantry batch. The frozen ones were fine.

During the first year, I used one to make a hot cereal and it was pretty good.

Like all of the “hard tack” type of rations you need lots of water, but, other than that, these little suckers are pretty tasty…and cheap.

The foil stuck to the cubes (and I don’t like aluminum chewing gum) so I now use Press ‘n Seal and flatten the cubes more like a thick cracker so that they are easier to carry in a pocket. We make these when we make jerky and store them in the freezer until we need them. We also keep some in the vehicles.

Emergency Ration Bars

3 cups rolled oats, barley, or wheat
2 1/2 cups nonfat milk powder
1/2 package citrus flavored Jello powder
1 cup sugar
2 tablespoon honey
3 tablespoon water

Preheat oven to 300 degrees.

Heat together water and honey, stir in Jello powder.

Stir dry ingredients together, stir in Jello water, and mix well. Add additional water 1 tablespoon at a time, until the mixture can be formed into two bars.

Dry in oven, wrap in foil (not the best choice) to store. Each bar is 1000 calories. May be eaten as is, or cooked in a pint of water.

Pat

GratefulCitizen

06-22-2008, 23:40

The recent flooding in the midwest prompted a visit to this thread.
Some of my relatives live in Cedar Falls, Iowa.

The town was well-prepared, and endured the problem well.
(My relatives live at the highest point in town, and weren't directly affected.)

News coverage has highlighted some finger-pointing concerning two 500-year floods occurring during a 15 year interval and insufficient levees.

In this thread, the topic of estimating risk was addressed a few times:

The intent of this thread is to discuss Disaster Preparedness and assist members of PS.com with their personal disaster planning.

Disaster Analysis

Frequency of Occurrence:

• Highly likely (Near 100% probability in the next year)
• Likely (Between 10% and 100% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 10 years)
• Possible (Between 1% and 10% probability in the next year, or at least one chance in the next 100 years)
• Unlikely (Less than 1% probability in the next 100 years)

Time article on risk. I didn't know that New York was considered the second biggest insurance risk for hurricanes after Miami.

Floods, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Wildfires, Earthquakes ... Why We Don't Prepare (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1229102,00.html)

mugwump

Risk-estimation can be difficult due to the misnomers used to describe the probability of a major event and the non-intuitive nature of probability.
In the case of the recent flooding, it has been called a "500-year" flood.

What does this mean?
According the the USGS: http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1963

"...a 0.2 percent chance - 1 in 500 - of happening in any given year in a particular location."

What does that mean?
How safe are we for X years to come? (not as safe as you think)

A "500-year" flood happened in 1993.
What are the odds of at least one more "500-year" flood occurring in the next 15 years?

1 - ((1-.002)^15) = 0.0296, or about 1 in 34.
In other words, the second "500-year" flood occuring in next 15 years is more likely than a person winning on their first spin at the roulette wheel.

There is a reason the Netherlands protects populated areas against a "10,000-year" flood.
Buy flood insurance if it is warranted. Don't delay preparations.

Thanks for the thread, TR.
It has given me much to consider in protecting my own clan.

Monsoon65

06-26-2008, 17:35

Pete

06-26-2008, 18:11

Lets not forget it's Hurricane Season once more.

Things will not kick up for about 30 more days but this weekend will be a good time to test run the 5Kw, check your battery supply, radio, couple of cases of bottled water, easy cook rations, etc, etc, ......

.......read through this thread.

The Reaper

06-26-2008, 18:35

I didn't see these in this thread, but came across them a few days ago.

I was doing a search for the Gamma seals that Walton Feed sells, and I found that the Gamma Plastics makes these:

http://www.gammaplastics.com/new/vittles_vault.html

I found them at PetSmart today. They are food grade plastic, easy spin off lids, come in a bunch of different sizes and are suppose to keep pests out. They might be a pretty good deal for storing dry goods like oats or rice.

I recently purchased a bunch of the Gamma Seal lids and have been very happy with them so far. They really make the 5 gallon buckets great for storage, as long as you use the Mylar bags for the contents.

This would be an excellent time to review your kit and make sure of the quantity and condition/shelf life of your gear.

As a minimum, I would want to have the following in a tuff box, storage container, bag or bags for quick grab and go situations.

The first thing to have is a plan, and a well-known one that every member is aware of. If the levee breaks, the power goes out, or the hurricane shifts at the last moment, everyone needs to know what to do, where to go, how you are getting out, what the destination is, contact info, etc.

Toss the contents of your wallet onto your local copier and burn a few sheets with the front and back of all ID, credit cards, passports, birth certificates, etc. Keep this in a secure, but quickly accessible place. I would keep several hundred dollars in small bills locked up as well. $1,000 would be better, if you can swing it.

Spare meds (see your Doc and tell him it is for travel). Make sure that your shots (and your families) are up to date as well.

First aid kit, covering trauma, illness, etc. Basically a broad selection. Make sure you know how tro use what you have. Get training if necessary.

At least one defensive weapon. If you have not fired it lately, get some ammo (scary prices) and burn a box or two, along with the nasty carry ammo you have had in the mag for the past year. Do not be surprised if it misfires, just do your clearing drill and drive on. I would have plenty of non-lethal options as well. Bring spare mags and ammo.

Sleeping bags, woobies, sheets, etc.

Tents, tarps, ponchos, or just sheet vinyl, and a bunch of 550 cord, a hammer stapler, and some duct tape.

An axe, machete, etc. Leatherman or SAK. Shovel, or E-tool. Chainsaw with fuel and oil, or a bow saw. Rope, straps, come-along, etc. Hand tools for carpentry and mechanical repair.

Fuel (I would keep a couple of cans at home). Use Sta-Bil, and rotate the stock periodically. If you leave, take at least a couple of gallong in an approved container. A couple of quarts of oil and a gallon of anti-freeze as well.

Depending on the size of your party, a Coleman stove (with fuel), Sterno, a multi-fuel stove, candles, a lantern, Chemlites, Microlights, and several flashlights (with spare bulbs and batteries).

Several collapsible water containers, Camelbacks, Nalgenes, canteens, cans, etc., and at least one gallon of fresh water per person, per day, stored at home.

Water purification, either mechanical or chemical.

Toilet paper and wet wipes. A folding chemical toilet at home, or the ability to make one.

Camp type cookware, flatware, etc.

Food (MREs, freeze dried, canned, etc.) adequate for at least one cold and one hot meal per day, per person. A couple of weeks worth, if you can. Food prices have gone wild as well lately. Probably not coming down anytime soon. Look for long shelf life. At least two weeks supply of non-perishables on hand at home. Don't forget the spices.

Plenty of soap, shampoo, hand sanitizer, and detergent. Towels.

Bug juice and sunscreen. Lots.

Cell phones, FRS/GMRS radios, laptop, ham gear, etc., with batteries. Have a commo plan and a RV/link-up plan with family members.

GPS, a home state gazetteer, and maps or an atlas with at least the surrounding states.

Spare batteries, chargers (120v. and 12 v.), etc. A solar charging panel is a nice to have item, as is an inverter.

Spare clothing, to include seasonably appropriate under and outerwear.

Make sure that your vehicle is well maintained, recently serviced, good all-season tires, reliable battery, and keep the fuel above 1/2 tank.

If you have a bike rack, or a way to carry one (or two), that is not a bad idea. Murphy is out there.

If you have pets, and plan to bring them, have them tattooed or chipped, shots up to date, and keep a close watch on them. Then bring plenty of food and extra water.

Game Boys, video player, personal audio devices, cards, a board game or two, if you wind up in a shelter, or waiting out an evacuation, you may need the diversion. Plus it is a touch of home for the kids.

Probably left some stuff off there, hope that helps everyone at least think about their preparations.

TR

Monsoon65

06-26-2008, 19:22

TR:

I really liked the Gamma seals, but my wife has a problem with something not being "food grade plastic" (she's a chemist with Hershey foods). I was going to get the 5 gallon containers like you, then found out about these. I'm thinking about sealing rice in maybe 2 cup packages with a food sealer, then putting them in the containers.

We're doing the review right now!

tom kelly

06-26-2008, 19:35

TR, You have given us a great list to start with Also you have motivated us to begin the thought process to prepare. Thank You, tom kelly

Peregrino

06-26-2008, 20:08

Cell phones, FRS/GMRS radios, laptop, ham gear, etc., with batteries. Have a commo plan and a RV/link-up plan with family members.

TR

We never did get around to discussing commo in any depth. My personal plan has always been set up to the PACE standard and is pretty well developed but I've kept my eyes/ears open for possible improvements. FRS/GMRS radios have been part of that plan for years, accepting the tradeoffs inherent in the system as the price of doing business.

I may have stumbled across a new and (to my eyes) better alternative. While thumbing through my July American Rifleman I discovered a product review (pg 28) for TriSquare eXRS Two-Way Radios ( www.trisquare.us ). I spent the next hour doing research and reading various articles and reviews. End result - I bought two sets from Amazon and will probably be moving the FRS radios one step lower on the plan. I'll be doing my own testing over the next few weeks and should have a better feel for capabilities when I'm finished. I'm enthusiastic about the potential. The two systems are not compatible so I'm keeping the FRS radios just because they're more widely used. (I'll be able to communicate with or loan sets to "allies" while keeping the superior technology for "core assets". :D) If the eXRSs pan out, I intend to use them exclusively for personal comms - the benefits of the technology and the features of the new radio lead me to speculate that it'll become the new standard in the near future. It's worth doing your own research.

Diablo Blanco

07-01-2008, 02:11

I didn’t get to this thread until just now, TR excuse my input on subjects already covered I will bring it back up to speed at the end of the post. I am adding solutions that have been missed and adding to the current subject. This is not intended as an end all, just in-addition to everyone else's contributions.

Most importantly: Firearms! If you have a large collection and are going to bug out you are obligated to render safe those firearms. If you can’t take them with you, take the firing pins. Do your neighbors a favor and think about the people that can’t bug out and are attacked by some looter that found YOUR firearms.

Shelter:
Man Packable – Bivy 2.0 – will last for awhile or at least long enough for you and family to get to your long term AO. They are actually comfortable and quiet (no crinkling). We have one in all of our BOBs. http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com/kit_detail.asp?series=1000&seriesNav=&kit=3&kitNO=0140-0223 throw in a poncho and you’re good to go (or a hammock if you have trees/poles/beams nearby)

Vehicle Borne – Maneuverability is a must in any disaster situation. A roof mounted tent is a great way to go. http://www.autohomeus.com/rooftop/ Especially in areas of floods, critters etc. Additionally they provide another obstacle for any would-be attackers to overcome. On a long enough vehicle you can get two of the OverZone models mounted (one opening to the side and one off the back) or several of the OverCamps. I don’t have a large family so I prefer the Maggiolina (it takes a minute to set up or take down and the bedding stays inside) also it has rack space on top. These have been in expedition use for decades. Quite pricey though.
Or if you don’t have a roof rack but do have a hitch check this cool MINI gear hauler/popup tent http://www.sylvansport.com/it.html Be sure to check out the slideshow, it does a lot more than you think it does. About $5-8K but useful for more than camping.

Heat and Cooking
Fuel – If you don’t have tons of money then your long term solution should never depend on fuel. The only solution that should depend on fuel is getting to your long term solution. Do you have enough fuel to get there without a gas station? With adequate clothing and sleeping gear you should not need fuel for heating. In a bad situation in a cold environment you should be moving around improving your situation instead of just sitting there. Sleeping arrangements should not be separate. Body warmth should be shared. The Inuit are a good case study. This is the most logical way. If you have room for cans and bottles of fuel then you didn’t pack right (other than for your vehicle on the way to your long term solution).

In Phoenix, there was a gas line break that drove gas prices sky high. After a day the govt stepped in and moderated prices to prevent jacking and riots. Most of the time gas stations had none unless it was trucked in. People got by though without the gas. Now that I think about it, the prices were the same as they are now.

Generators and trying to store fuel that will only last a short time is highly expensive that can be better budgeted somewhere else.

However, if you have the money, throw in an underground propane tank as TR mentioned. It will help with cooking and hygiene water.

Mylar – we have a few 100’ rolls of this sitting around the house and at our long term solution. Lining the walls and ceilings of a room will trap in more heat than you’d think. I lined the sleeping compartment of a travel trailer with this to save money on heating. It’s a godsend. You can buy a roll from Home Depot or even a hydroponics gardening store.

Man Packable – Littlbug http://littlbug.com/littlbug_stove_junior.html You seriously don’t need a large amount of fuel for your cooking or heating if you use it effectively. This stove will run on twigs and leaves and still bring water to a boil and hold it for a good length of time. You can also make one yourself from a tomato sauce or coffee can. PM me if you want some instructions on that.

Vehicle Borne – If you’re on the move, bring aluminum foil (with the tabs on the sides ;D ) and cook on your engine while driving!

Power – I carry a HUGE collection of eBooks on every subject on all my family’s laptops and PDA’s (medical, repair, etc). The laptops/PDAs and a radio/cell are the only reason I would need power. Do you really need a light on at night during a city/region wide emergency? Do you want that attention “Hey they have lights! They must have a generator!”

Man Packable – a good Brunton Solar Roll is good for PDAs/Cell phones. I suggest getting used to a PDA Phone, you can carry a ton of information and access many services from one. As well as document events with the Camera, Video, Audio and note taking capabilities.

Vehicle Borne – If you don’t have one yet, go buy a good inverter. Install/Have it installed now before you need it.

Building Mounted - Why use a generator to provide power when you need it? Use some daisy chained marine batteries and an inverter when you need power. You can setup a nice system hidden IN YOUR STAIRS (or a thick wall) that is hooked to a trickle charger so it stays charged 24/7. When the power goes out you just plug into the inverter. Some enterprising individuals with the know how can rig it so the entire house defaults to this system when the power goes out (don’t forget about the feedback into the city lines when setting this up to an entire house!). Buy a small generator and charge it during the day time (sound carries farther at night). Remember you shouldn’t be running your house off this, only necessities. Couple this with a small solar array and you're off the grid.

This post continues into my next post.

Diablo Blanco

07-01-2008, 02:18

Continued from post #501

Potable Water – When you HEAR that something afoul could/is happen(ing), plug up your sinks and bathtub and fill them with water immediately. It is a good idea to get your drain stops working 100% before needing to do this. That way you will have FRESH water in home if you need to stay there. Water pressure will stay moderate for a very short time after a city pump stops. I don’t plan on hanging around my house. My land has a 6000 gal water tank which lasts a long time in the right hands.

Pasteurization - doesn’t require a fuel source, just enough sunlight to keep the water above a certain temperature for a certain period of time. You can build a system yourself (similar to a solar oven) or buy a rack that’ll produce daily amounts for you and your family. Hell, you could mount it on your rooftop tent.

Man Packable - http://www.solarsolutions.info/aquapak/aquapak.html $20, 5 liters a day or more

Or the SteriPen with Solar Case is a much better long term solution to the MSR Miox, it doesn’t require salt tabs and has it’s own rugged recharging station. $139 from REI

Vehicle Borne – SunRay 30 http://www.safewatersystems.com/General%20Pages/Products/SunRay30.htm You can make safe water at 7.5 liters per day

Building Mounted – SunRay 1000 – 1,000 liters a day http://www.safewatersystems.com/General%20Pages/Products/SunRay1000.htm

TR asked if people that are prepping homes for disaster have considered that they will absolutely have to leave. One reason why I have included Man-Portable, Vehicle-Borne and House Mounted solutions. For the most part your Home Solutions should fit into your vehicles, and cross loaded in case you have to ditch one. At the very least each family member should always carry their Go Bag (BOB) with them in their vehicle and have a route plan handy. Most of my home to vehicle solutions are packed into trunks with wheels. Each trunk is outfitted with rope and D-rings so I can stack or tractor them. Have a packing list on each trunk, it doesn’t take much time and saves you a lot of time in the long run. Include expiration dates of items in the trunk on the packing list. Set a reminder on your calendar to check/replace your Go Boxes periodically.

Food - An easy way to stock up on food is to skip an MRE and just save it (some of you can stand to lose the weight anyways). Everyone knows at least one private that has left the field/deployment with a ruck/duffel/trunk full of MRE’s. Some sell them, some eat them, some save them.

Milk – dry or powdered. Use NIDO from Nestle. Harder to find in the US but it tastes delicious!

Evaporated milk: to make 2% add one full can to the evaporated. For skim add an additional ½ to a full can.

Emergency Survival Food Tabs: for the Go Bag

There are companies that offer 1 year supply of survival food. The problem with these are that the food is in #10 sized cans. Once you open a can, you have to eat it. Which means green beans for two weeks, then red beans for two weeks etc. If you have the money and space go for freeze dried foods. Store lots of salt for salting meats.

Snares have limitless ammo!

Dehydrating food and seal/storing it is a good option for those without access to MRE’s or the funds for 1 year’s supply of food.

Start a garden and buy some vegetarian cookbooks. This is great if you live in the city, plus it will lower your monthly food costs.

Expiration Dates – are only there because of the lawyers. Last week I consumed a full can of evaporated milk that was 18 months past it’s expiration date. Your canned goods will store for a decade or more if kept out of the heat <75 degrees. Tell your neighbors you’re taking a collection of expired canned goods for an ongoing expirement (pun intended). Do this every few months. They will gladly check their pantries and hand them over. Store them and reap the benefits.

Seeds – your long term solution should also have a generous supply of seeds for a wide variety of fruits, vegetables and herbs. Along with this supply should also be a book on gardening. You will forget and you will need a reference. Eggplants have a lot of nutritional value and can be prepared in many ways.

Rice and bouillon – store lots of rice in sealed containers. Mixed with bouillon they save stave off hunger and nourish. Also great for trading.

Tobacco – for those of you that chew or smoke do you have an extended supply on hand, rotate stock? If you don’t, chew staves off hunger. Tobacco is also great for trading. Carry a few packs of smokes and offer them in cigarette increments. This will be handy a day or two into a situation and after the first few months (in the interim the bandits will have a good supply)

Sanitation –
Carbon – from burned wood, etc has a bonding quality that coats everything it comes in contact with. Very useful for poisoning or extreme conditions were soap is not available.

Soap – Dr Bronner’s Soap is an excellent all around soap. I’ve used it for many years and have even heard that some hippies brush their teeth with it. You can buy very large bottles of it at great prices. It’s very runny and a few drops goes a long way.

Composting toilets for the long term solution are great but expensive. The market demand isn’t great enough yet for cheaper solutions but they are there.

Chemical toilets in the 5 gal bucket are a must. Have one in your house and on your check list before bugging out in the vehicle.

Toilet Paper – I didn’t see anyone mention this…It takes A LOT of space and is worth it’s weight in gold in the field. An alternative is a sheet sponge (available in your super market in packs of 3) Get the sponge wet and wipe away. You can designate a bucket for cleaning these. You don’t need much water to clean them if you boil or have bleach/chlorine on hand. Wash your hands after using.

Conservation – if you don’t like the idea of wiping with the same thing day after day then conserve your TP by changing your posture. Instead of sitting American style, squat. A FULL squat where your cheeks touch the backs of your calves/feet. The alignment of your intestines, anus and cheeks is optimal and you will notice that your ‘wipes’ will come out cleaner than normal.

PSM – thanks for the Emergency Ration Bar recipe!
TR – Excellent starter post and comprehensive post #497 Great starting point for anyone that needs a good bearing.

Final Contribution: Have a check list of your home/vehicle/BOB along with expiration dates. Set a reminder on your computer to remind you to check your kit at regular intervals.