Use of Force

[Smokin Joe]

I didn't want to Hijack another thread.

Use of Force, my intent is to give you a brief overview on what use of force is and how it applies to you.

These are Arizona laws. I STONGLY recommend that you research your local and state laws before you may have to use force on someone else.

A.R.S. (Arizona Revised Statue) 13-404 Justification of Physical force

13-404. Justification; self-defense

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:

1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or

2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or

3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.

A.R.S. 13-405 Justification; use of deadly physical force

13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.

There are some other exceptions here

Here is what we LEO's call a Use of Force Continuum:

1. Officer Presence (you being there in the first place)
2. Verbal Commands (wether challenging or calming)
3. Soft hands (guiding hands or joint locks)
4. O.C. Spray / TASER (this is where your 1st less lethal device is deployed)
5. Hard Hands (punches, kicks, elbow, knee, etc.)
6. Baton / Impact Weapon (not including strikes to the head)
7. Lethal Force (this could be anything, gun, knife, crowbar etc)

*Additionally in Arizona there is a no "retreat" law. Meaning that you do not have to retreat to try and avoid a fight.

What elements need to be present for you to be justified in using force on another person?

• Ability
• Opportunity
• Jeopardy
• Perclusion

Ability- The individual threatening you has to have the ability to carry out those threats

Opportunity- The individual threatening you has to have the opportunity to carry out those threats

Jeopardy- You have to be in imminent (or immediate) danger.

Preclusion- What lesser means have you exhausted to try and defuse the situation.

Okay now that you have established that all 4 above elements are present. What can you do.

1. Try to talk your way out of a fight
2. Try to Escape and Evade
3. Fight you are justified to use the same level of force that your attacker is using on you.

Physical and enviromental factors also need to be taken into account.

I.E. : If you are a 5'1" 100 lbs woman walking down the street at night and you are attacked by a 6'3" 250 man. You would be justified in using more force on the individual than if you were attacked by a 5'1" 100 lbs woman.

You are also justified to use 1 step higher on the use of foce continuum to stop the threat.

I.E: If you are confronted with a knife. You may point a gun at them. If they are within 21 ft of you shoot them don't talk about it.

OR

If you are being attacked by someone who is punching you. You may use a baton or impact weapon (in a less lethal manner) to stop there attack.

Hope this was infomative.

I will also defer to the Attorney's on here if I'm wrong.

[The Reaper]

You want to touch on the exception (if you have one) for them trying to physically acquire your deadly force device, i.e., take your weapon?

I believe that if you are both struggling for the weapon, you may escalate to deadly force immediately as a means of last resort.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by The Reaper
You want to touch on the exception (if you have one) for them trying to physically acquire your deadly force device, i.e., take your weapon?

I believe that if you are both struggling for the weapon, you may escalate to deadly force immediately as a means of last resort.

TR

Absolutely correct Sir!

One more thing I would like to add.

You do not have to go step by step through the use of force continuum.

I.E. You maybe walking down the street one second to shooting someone the next second and skipping everything in the middle.

OR

Walking down the street one second to monkey stomping someone the next.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Great thread!

[A Soldier]

Hi i am new here and ordinarily I would not post post but the advice here has been outstanding.

I have been to several other boards and I have found it difficul to get any advice on the legal aspects of fighting or self defense the advice here is great.

I will go back to lurking but not before I ask one last quesioun.

If after an altercation a police officer stepped in, what action would he view as self defense and leave you alone, and what would he view as assault and arrest you.

[Ambush Master]

You will find that you will get a more fitting response once you follow our directions, located in "Stickies" at the top of all Forums, and fill out your Profile so that we have some idea as to whom we are answering.

Thanks, and take care.
Martin

[Goggles Pizano]

Ok Joe I have to ask.....I know I am late to this discussion but what caused this thread? Did you have to write for giving some knucklehead a birthday party?

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

Ok Joe I have to ask.....I know I am late to this discussion but what caused this thread? Did you have to write for giving some knucklehead a birthday party?

LOL

No I teach this stuff at the Academy and for my Department. It was inspired by another thread inwhich we were discussing self defense. I can't remember which thread it was. I didn't want to play hijacker so I created this one. I have been meaning to put a little more into this but it made its way to the bottom of the stack and I sort of forgot about it. I will TRY and update or add to this thread now that it has resurfaced.

My orginial intent was to give the civilians on this board a working knowledge of a use of force continuum and how it applies to there lives.

[Goggles Pizano]

Roger that!

Just don't forget the "oh Shit!" factor! Nothing more educational than trying to train someone and have your calm situation go south in the blink of an eye.


"Uh.....well Sarge I was concerned about the force continuum, but then he squared up on me ready to throw hands, and now he's wearing a turban."

[A Soldier]

I apologise I belive I had filled in the details in my profile beforehand however when I checked it agian this time it appears my profile was empty, I have since remdied the situation and filled in the profile.

Sorry I read the rules and I must have forgoten the part about introudcing myself.

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy at Naval Headquarters, for OPSEC reasons lets just say all I do is push papers around all day. It is not entirely true but I can not explain I hope you will forgive me. Let me just be clear on this issue I am not a combatant nor have I ever served in any combat capacity, Sadly I have Diabeates and this precludes any combat role.

If you have any questiouns I will be more than happy to answer, I apologise that my first post was such a boneheaded one, I will go back to lurking.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by Goggles Pizano

Roger that!

Just don't forget the "oh Shit!" factor! Nothing more educational than trying to train someone and have your calm situation go south in the blink of an eye.


"Uh.....well Sarge I was concerned about the force continuum, but then he squared up on me ready to throw hands, and now he's wearing a turban."

Oh you mean like when you impact push a handcuffed suspect who just squard up with you and is talking shit to you and every other officer around.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by A Soldier

If after an altercation a police officer stepped in, what action would he view as self defense and leave you alone, and what would he view as assault and arrest you.

This will greatly depend on the witnesses that watch the altercation. If you present yourself as the victim. I.E. My advice is in the pre-contact phase of the fight you should be yelling, "Stop, Leave Me alone, Someone call the Police, etc." have your hands up in a non threating manner (hands open in front of you, palms towards the threat elbows tucked into the body). This is a universal sign of submission. So present an exterior of submission and avoidance. However, internally you are preparing your fight stragedy mentally, assessing the threat, his/her options, any additional threats, all of there options, All while assessing your options to deal with the threat as well as any environmental factors (day, night, snow, rain, etc) and finally your assessing your escape routes. Its a lot to manage in fractions of a second but you need to do it. Oh and fight your bodies natural tendency to get tunnel vision. This is done buy constantly scanning back and forth.

HTH

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by A Soldier

I apologise I belive I had filled in the details in my profile beforehand however when I checked it agian this time it appears my profile was empty, I have since remdied the situation and filled in the profile.

Sorry I read the rules and I must have forgoten the part about introudcing myself.

Well I am serving in the Israeli Navy at Naval Headquarters, for OPSEC reasons lets just say all I do is push papers around all day. It is not entirely true but I can not explain I hope you will forgive me. Let me just be clear on this issue I am not a combatant nor have I ever served in any combat capacity, Sadly I have Diabeates and this precludes any combat role.

If you have any questiouns I will be more than happy to answer, I apologise that my first post was such a boneheaded one, I will go back to lurking.

Welcome to PS.com

[Goggles Pizano]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Oh you mean like when you impact push a handcuffed suspect who just squard up with you and is talking shit to you and every other officer around.

As Sgt. Schultz would say.... I know nuuuuuuthing!

[stanley_white]

I've been to several schools that spoke and trained to a situation in which you may have / choose to utilize a tactical folding knife in the blade closed position as an impact weapon.

Are there any legal ramifications to this?

For example... Is "pulling a knife" the same whether or not the folding knife is open or closed?

I assume in my case if I used a closed tactical folder as an impact weapon though someone could argue that I "pulled a knife" I could quote my training and though I did produce a knife I did not use it as a cutting tool but an impact weapon etc etc.

Weird scenario but I believe there are times when one may pull their knife out but not have time to deploy the blade. Utilizing the knife as an impact tool as a gap-bridging technique in order to create time or space to deploy the blade could be realistic.

Thanks in advance for any imput you may have.