07-17-2014, 09:55
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
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777 Crash In Ukraine
Air Malaysia just had a 777 enroute from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur go down in Ukraine. 
Accident or accidental shoot down?
Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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07-17-2014, 10:04
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#2
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Clay House Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 2,671
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I'll bet on a missile strike. 
Last edited by mojaveman; 07-17-2014 at 12:09.
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mojaveman is offline
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07-17-2014, 17:27
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#3
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: By the Sangre De Cristo's
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojaveman
I'll bet on a missile strike. |
Nah, it'll turn out to be wires arcing in the fuel cell.... 
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Have nothing in your life that you do not know to be useful
or believe to be beautiful. ~ paraphrasing William Morris
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Detonics is offline
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07-17-2014, 18:15
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#4
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detonics
Nah, it'll turn out to be wires arcing in the fuel cell.... |
Today is the 18th anniversary of that event.
BTW, I believe the NTSB got it right.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-17-2014, 10:31
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#5
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie
Or just a shoot down. Anyone remember flight 007? good pretense for an invasion ie Ukraine is shooting down civilian jet liners and targeting civilians.
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This was my first thought as well. Did Russia do it?
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Lan is offline
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07-17-2014, 10:33
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#6
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Buckingham, Pa.
Posts: 1,746
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Reports are that it was hit by a BUK surface to air missile fired from inside Russian territory. This is going to get ugly really quickly if true. Prayers out to the deceased.
Last edited by rubberneck; 07-17-2014 at 12:27.
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rubberneck is offline
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07-17-2014, 12:58
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
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It's the Malaysians.
I don't think any further explanation for the routing is required.
Remember, these are the people who let the rest of the world search for weeks for their lost airplane while they withheld information on its possible location.
As far as the SAM shooting, it was either the Ukranian government, which I would say is very unlikely, the Ukranian separatists, who initially claimed credit for the downing, and now deny it, or most likely, IMHO, the Russians shot it down in support of the "separatists".
A BUK requires armored TELs and radars to employ, it isn't a shoulder fired missile that might be hidden.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-17-2014, 18:39
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: DFW Texas Area
Posts: 4,741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
A BUK requires armored TELs and radars to employ, it isn't a shoulder fired missile that might be hidden.
TR
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A Man-Pad can't even get a "Target-Lock" on something above 10K' Max, much less have enough Propellant to boost it that far. To get that high, it has to be the size of a Telephone Pole!!
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Martin sends.
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Ambush Master is offline
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07-17-2014, 19:57
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#9
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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I wonder if President Obama is happy with his buddy Vlad right now:
"This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."
Flexible enough to keep on his fundraising tour and ignore the State sanctioned murders of nearly 300 people?
The ends justify the means, eh tovarisch?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-17-2014, 14:09
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#10
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
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The airspace was not restricted at the time. The FIR has been closed now, though.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-17-2014, 14:40
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,511
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This will certainly take the media's attention away from the IRS scandal......
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ddoering is offline
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07-17-2014, 14:46
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#12
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie
Restricted or not enough stuff happening there common sense dictates avoid the area. I would like to go to Kiev and look around due to the history there. If given an all expense paid vacation I would avoid the place at the moment. Just poor SA but like was pointed out it was the Malaysians so enough said about common sense.
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Oh I agree. But remember, those airways are a marketable commodity and the Ukranians have probably been busy promising that the airspace is safe. I doubt the Malaysians were the only airline using those airways.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-17-2014, 15:15
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
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This may be a negotiated rerouting of the air corridor over the Crimea which was closed in April and over the Middle East due to the on-going situation there.
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/maps/Malaysia_Airlines
Only so much airspace out there and lots of potential hazards to navigate.
Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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07-17-2014, 22:01
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#14
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NoVA
Posts: 171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
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Granted, it was a Malaysian flight, but... our FAA advised US carriers to exercise extreme caution in the area back in April; the NOTAM is valid until April 2015.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...RAINE_SFAR.pdf
Quote:
F. ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS (NOT INCLUDED IN SFAR 113).
U.S. OPERATORS AND AIRMEN FLYING INTO, OUT OF, WITHIN, OR TRANSITING
LVOV (UKLV), KYIV(UKBV), DNEPROPETROVSK (UKDV), AND ODESSA (UKOV)
FIRS, AS WELL AS AIRSPACE IN THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR THAT IS OUTSIDE
THE LATERAL LIMITS OF SFAR 113 AIRSPACE DESCRIBED ABOVE, MUST
REVIEW CURRENT SECURITY/THREAT INFORMATION AND NOTAMS; COMPLY
WITH ALL APPLICABLE FAA REGULATIONS, OPERATIONS SPECIFICATIONS,
MANAGEMENT SPECIFICATIONS, AND LETTERS OF AUTHORIZATION,
INCLUDING UPDATING B450; AND EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION DUE TO THE
CONTINUING POTENTIAL FOR INSTABILITY. U.S. OPERATORS MUST REPORT
SAFETY AND/OR SECURITY INCIDENTS TO THE FAA
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Tree Potato is offline
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07-18-2014, 08:15
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#15
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 15,370
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The corridor being used by the Malaysian Airlines flight was outside the warning areas and 15 of 16 East Asian airlines were currently using it. Not now.
http://news.yahoo.com/why-airlines-d...--finance.html
Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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