warriortalk

[mdb23]

Are we talking about tactics, training, procedures, or a mindset?

If it is the former, then I totally agree. Cops do not have the training to wage war... we don't (look at what happened in LAPD). In that sense, we are not trained to be "warriors," nor is that our job. I would never argue that my combat skills are on par with an Infantry Marine or Soldier.... they aren't. I do not wage war for a living, and am therefore not a warrior. I'll be the first to admit that.

However, if we are discussing the ability to adopt a "warrior like" mindset, and the ability to "man up" and fight when it is time to fight, then I would say that is often separate from your training, and depends on your character and intestinal fortitude (which nobody can give you). I don't see being prior service as anecessity in this area.

I personally know several soldiers who could not cut it as LEO's. They locked up (panicked) when the shit hit the fan, refused to engage a violent person, and got out of the careerfield. One was a Korean Linguist, and another was an admin type. I would not categorize them as "warriors." I also know a guy that has been in 5 shootouts as a LEO, and has served as point man on hundreds of search warrants on high risk drug houses. He has proven (in my eyes) that he is capable of adopting a "warrior like" mindset, and taking the fight to the bad guys when necessary. He is reliable under fire, keeps a cool head, and doesn't tuck tail and run. He is not prior service.

In my class, one former Infantry Officer quit during his FTO period after refusing to crawl into an attac to look for a burglar who we believed to be armed. He refused, and turned his stuff in later that day. He went back on AD.

In short, Soldiers, Marines, etc. are trained to be warriors by trade, and we are not. Our training is different, as is our mindset during day to day operations. However, once the bullets start flying, LEOs must adopt the midset of someone who is in battle or we will die..... the fact that we are facing one person, or two, or three does not change the fact that we are in a war for our lives at that point, and we had better be able to get our heads on straight or we won't go home. That doesn't make us professional "warriors," as we aren't, it just means that we had to act like one for a short period of time in order to survive. Are most LEO's capable of adopting this mindset when necessary? No, not in my experience, but some definately are.

Just my opinion.

[HOLLiS]

Good read. Having been involved in both professions, I would say LEO is more community based, public relations, and under more direct civilian control than the military. I think part of the problem is the word "war". It is thrown around a lot and it's meaning has been deluded. To promote LEO as warriors is a equal mistake as promoting military combat personal as LEOs. A warrior would not make a very good LEO with out some major changes and training.

I also think part of the problem is our cultural system of how we rank "Bad A** professions", as a aspect of many young male's bravado. To say LEO are not warriors, is not to demean the LEO. The ROE and how objectives are achieved and measured are just not the same.

A LACO deputy long ago defined his job more as a roving secretary (report writer) than any other aspect. I doubt the Agency would use that description in a hiring poster. I think this issue has more to do with ego, bravado and our own personal perceptions than with reality.

[mdb23]

Didn't know anything about Gabe Suarez...... looks like he is a POS.

SMPD Officers Charged With Fraud
Clara Sturak
Associate editor

On Friday, March 2, two Santa Monica Police Officers were arrested in connection with conspiracy to defraud the City of Santa Monica through Workers Compensation fraud. Officers Jason Comer and Gabriel Suarez were arrested along with Suarez' wife Cheryl Suarez.
According to a press release issued by the Public Information Office of the Santa Monica Police Department, the three were charged after a "long term and intensive investigation" on the part of the Department's Internal Criminal Unit, the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office, and the California State Department of Insurance.
Comer, 32, a six-year veteran, and Suarez 40, a twelve year veteran, along with Mrs. Suarez, are charged with four criminal counts, explains Deputy District Attorney Craig Omura, who led the DA's portion of the investigation. "Count one is conspiracy to commit workers compensation fraud, count two is workers compensation fraud, count three is money laundering, and count six is grand theft, because the money they obtained was over $400." Counts four and five, both for perjury, apply only to Officer Suarez, in regards to false depositions he gave in March and June of 2000. Details of the case have not yet been released.
The investigation, says Omura, has been going on since October of 2000, when the SMPD became aware of possible criminal activity. "They brought the information to [the District Attorney's office] in November of 2000. At that time we began a three-pronged investigation with the Santa Monica Police and the State Department of Insurance." SMPD did the most of the investigative footwork, according to Omura, consulting with the other two departments as to "what elements [they] needed to prove."
The charges and subsequent arrests were not made public until March 7, with an interdepartmental memo sent by SMPD Chief James T. Butts. Although there has been concern that some City officials were not made aware of the situation until several days following the arrests, Judy Rambeau, Assistant to the City Manager states that the City Manger's office was aware of the investigation from its beginnings. "The City Manager is always alerted when something like this is going on," said Rambeau in an interview on Monday. "That doesn't mean we have all of the details as the investigation proceeds. The police need to keep tight control over who knows what's happening at any given time."
In fact, that's exactly why City officials were not informed. Chief Butts' memo states that "there are other long-term investigations concerning potential fraudulent application for Workers Compensation benefits by other members of the department that continue." SMPD Public Information Officer Captain Gary Gallinot confirmed in a telephone interview with the Mirror that, "it was our intent that the investigations be entirely wrapped up before we went public." But, says Gallinot, the District Attorney's office felt they had enough information to go forward, and "since they are the prosecuting authority, it was up to them."
Once any arrest is made it becomes a matter of public record. However, the SMPD did not issue a statement on the day of the arrests. According to Gallinot, "the reason [the arrests weren't] made public [by the police department] is because we did not want to jeopardize the ongoing investigations. Once we realized it was going to be made public [in the media], our strategy had to change, and notifications were made."
Gallinot could not comment on the ongoing investigations, except to say that they are "specific" in nature, and that the DA's office is involved.
"It's important to note," he said, "that this investigation was started by our police department. We are vigorously involved in the discipline and prosecution of misconduct [on the part] of our employees. If you don't look for misconduct or criminal activity, you seldom find it. The fact that we do so shines a positive light on our institutional integrity."
Jason Comer, Gabriel Suarez and Cheryl Suarez are scheduled to be arraigned on Wednesday, March 14. If convicted, Jason Comer and Cheryl Suarez could serve maximum prison sentences of 5 years, 8 months, and Gabriel Suarez could serve a maximum of 7 years, 8 months.

[gagners]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Mr. Suarez should rename his warriortalk fourms to pregnanttalk forums as his experience in both would be about equal.

Woo-Hoo. That's an award winning zinger right there!

[Big Daddy]

What was the outcome? Anybody can be accused of anything. Who was the prosecutor that made the remark about indicting a ham sandwich? I've been over to his forum several times and have found it to be very informative. He seems like a good guy and a real patriot. FWIW.

I've always considered that "Warrior" meant a man (or conceivably a woman) of war. Someone with the skills and behaviors required of warfare. Mindset is insufficient without the skills. Skills are insufficient without the behaviors. It's a complete package.

There may be some LEOs that are warriors. But the great majority are not. And should not be. As already pointed out, that is not demeaning LEOs. It very well may be a compliment to them that they do what they do without the skills of warriors.

And there are plenty of people in the Armed Forces who are not warriors as well. My brother was a computer tech in Space Mountain. Important job. But he might as well have been a civilian in terms of his being a warrior. He wasn't.

But Infantry? Armor? Artillary? The men who fly attack helos and A10s, F15s and F18s? SEALs? Those who train to engage the enemy and destroy him (and do exactly that when we are at war, as we are today)? Those are warriors.

That's my opinion.

[Peregrino]

Warrior is an accolade awarded by peers for "exceptional performance under extraordinary circumstances" and it only applies to individuals who've "seen the elephant" (that means combat). Period, end of discussion. In 28 years of soldiering I met a handful of real warriors. I would follow any one of them into combat, even today. They are all extraordinary men. I was also priviledged to serve with a lot of professional Soldiers (note the caps - I make a distinction between Soldiers and soldiers). "Soldier" by itself is an accolade and a higher calling than many who wear the uniform ever aspire to. The BS promulgated by "right think" idiots, e.g. the US Army BCT heirarchy, trying to make something real by naming it - "we say it is, therefore it is" - cheapens and dilutes the character of warriors and "warriorhood".

Misquoted from (I think) Heroditus - somebody here is using it as a signature: Of every 100 men, ten should not even be there, 80 are grist for the mill, nine are soldiers, they make the battle. But one, he is a warrior and he will bring the rest home. That's what Warrior is all about. As for myself - I will rest content if my peers counted me one of the nine.

My .02 - Peregrino

[DisplacedTrojan]

Originally Posted by Greenhat

Someone with the skills and behaviors required of warfare. Mindset is insufficient without the skills. Skills are insufficient without the behaviors. It's a complete package.

Under that definition it sounds like being a warrior is nothing more than being in the profession and performing to some standard. Where does mindset fit? Is it a subcategory of behavior? Assuming it is... would it be possible to cultivate a 'warrior mindset' in a group of people who are clearly not warriors without attempting to make them into warriors?

Originally Posted by DisplacedTrojan

Under that definition it sounds like being a warrior is nothing more than being in the profession and performing to some standard. Where does mindset fit? Is it a subcategory of behavior? Assuming it is... would it be possible to cultivate a 'warrior mindset' in a group of people who are clearly not warriors without attempting to make them into warriors?

You can't have behaviors without the mindset, so, yes, I guess you could call mindset a subcategory of behavior (although I would say it is a required condition to the behavior - either pre-existing or taught as behaviors are taught).

Would it be possible to cultivate a "warrior mindset" without making those people into warriors?

Would it be possible to cultivate a "leadership mindset" without making those people leaders?

Same question. Just a different set of skills and behaviors.

Adults learn through experience. Mindset is learned through behavioral experience. Sparta cultivated a warrior mindset, seemingly (according to myth and what we do know of Sparta) among the entire population. Of course, in doing so, they made a society of warriors.

In my opinion, training the behaviors required for a "leadership mindset"? Usually mean you are making a leader. Same deal with a warrior.