Army reopens probe into 3rd Group Alumnus after Fox interview

[CDRODA396]

Originally Posted by scooter

Jim, you're right, as long as you have PID (under OEF ROE, not ISAF), you can shwak him. Our ROE would have allowed us to kill that guy. I've followed a guy on ISR for an hour after he ambushed a convoy, then nuked him when he got clear of civilians and houses. Righteous kill.

As for killing the bomb maker, can't do that if you PUC him. Once he's a detainee the game is up, and that's where this went wrong. There are literally so many other ways to make this guy go away.... Even if you wanted to stay above board, his operation had to have some sort of detainee plan. Hell, saying you had no evidence, and releasing him to the custody of the nearest elder (in this case, the threatened guy) would have worked. But no, cap him in the head and bury him. Then freak out, exhume him, and burn the body.

I'm all for expediency, but this wasn't a righteous shoot based on the evidence available publicly.

I watched the whole interview and towards the end the female recounts events as the bomb maker HAD been a detainee, who was RELEASED due to the ROE at the time.

The good CPT thinking this was wrong, subsequently hunted the guy down and killed him.

Its not clear what the circumstances were at the actual scene of the killing subsequent to the release. If the guy gave himself up again, was taken into custody, then swacked, then that is where it went wrong.

If no surrender was accepted, and the CPT killed the guy as soon as they had PID, then things get less easy to define.

Either way, burning the body was a stupid move that infers guilt, or an effort to hide something.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by CDRODA396

...bomb maker HAD been a detainee, who was RELEASED due to the ROE at the time. The good CPT thinking this was wrong, subsequently hunted the guy down and killed him.

I know of a group of people (I'm being vague here) that did something like this. They invited some Taliban leadership to come to a shura to discuss their differences. At the meeting, they confirmed it was the dudes in question. They all agreed to disagree, and the Taliban left. Having confirmed they were on the strike/kill list, they let them get 20 yards out of the gate then shot them dead.

Their command did not like this. At all. They opened a criminal investigation into the events, which eventually concluded that 1) they should have just taken them prisoner once PID'd, and 2) they didn't actually break the law as the guys were not in US custody, and had been PID'd.

They didn't go to jail, but the leadership were unceremoniously fired and sent packing, and everyone else split up and sent to different units.

[Oldrotorhead]

Well Fox replayed the interview today. He dude you weren't buried deep enough take that shovel and make it a foot deeper! Fox is not your friend, they are no better than NBC, CNN or the HOPO

[Remington Raidr]

"Last summer, newly surfaced Army documents alleged that Golsteyn told the CIA during a polygraph test that he killed an unarmed Afghan bombmaker in his custody and later conspired with others to destroy the body."

Even if he hadn't given the interview, if the above statement is what he actually said, he should have passed on the polygraph and whatever his reason for taking it was.

[sinjefe]

The community is littered with the bodies of people who have implicated themselves on polygraphs taken when applying for a job. I always have felt that we tend to operate in "grey" areas enough that I would never seek a job that required a polygraph.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by sinjefe

The community is littered with the bodies of people who have implicated themselves on polygraphs taken when applying for a job. I always have felt that we tend to operate in "grey" areas enough that I would never seek a job that required a polygraph.

I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.

The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by scooter

I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.

The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.

I remember that little test in Robin Sage as a CPT and I took the drink and downed it. Tasted like Jack Daniels mixed with Texas Pete Hot Sauce. It was awful. Funny that the guy playing the G Chief that offered me the drink was "Spearchucker" and the same guy that used to clear my 82nd ABN infantry platoon off the range at Fort Bragg.

As for the polygraphs, I've taken 4 CI Polygraphs and had minimal issues getting through it. The full scope that he took would have been more in depth but my guess is that he fell prey to the elicitation techniques of the polygrapher and just kept talking. Polygraphs are shit in my opinion.

[Basenshukai]

Originally Posted by scooter

I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.

The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.

Because you brought that up:

It's 2012 and the Cartagena Incident had just taken place a few months prior (Summit of the Americas in Cartagena Colombia where the Secret Service and about five CIF guys got into hot water). My company was next up on the rotation and we were read the "riot act" before we left. Of course, everyone was nervous of another event. On top of that, we would be the holiday rotation (right through Christmas and New Years). In fact, because of all of these factors I was selected to lead this company. I was already a company commander at the time, and because of the circumstances we would go into (embarrassing international incident just happened, the FARC-COLGOV talks were at a critical point, etc.), I was pulled from 10 months into my own company command and asked to lead this company into theater. Anyway, so I deploy and meet outgoing AOB commander. The Defense Attache decides that the best way to get to know one another is to have a quiet dinner at his home and discuss the way forward. He has his home staff prepare a terrific dinner for us and it ends, quite unsurprisingly, with a cup of wine. So, the guy I'm replacing sits there staring at his glass while the Defense Attache proposes a toast. I raise my glass. The Defense Attache looks at the major and says, "You don't like wine?". My replacement answers, "Well, sir, it would be a violation of my orders to drink this." The Defense Attache looks at him puzzled, "If anyone in-country can authorize an exception to this it is me. I'm the one who signs the damn thing anyway. Besides, the spirit of the rule is to prevent you from drinking at some watering hole and getting hammered and then doing something stupid. Right now, you are sitting with the most senior DoD official in-country who is asking you to join him in an after-dinner cup of wine. Drink the wine. I authorize it." "No sir. I cannot." Replies the major. The Defense Attache looks at me and I knock my glass against his, "Salud, Colonel" and we drink. Anyway, we had a phenomenal rotation. Not a single incident with my guys - we even had a Thanksgiving, Chrismas party, and New Years party. A near identical scenario took place when I was in Robin Sage.