ATTN all you turds getting shot by LEO's:

[C4B]

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

1st-degree manslaughter charges brought against Ofc. Betty Shelby by state prosecutor in the death of Terence Crutcher of Tulsa.

That was swift and I believe correctly done.

Let the opinion of the court decision determine justice, punishment and reparations to the family.

Agreed, trial by public opinion needs to stop.

[sfshooter]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

This was not a traffic stop. He had stopped his vehicle and was walking around prior to Officer Shelby's arrival.

In the moments after the above picture was taken, he walks back toward his car with his hands up and she walks with him. While this happens, back up arrives and moves to her side as they approach Big Scary Black Man. A loud POP! is heard, several seconds go by, he falls and the she calls, Shots Fired over the radio.

Watching the dashcam with audio, I think she flinched causing a negligent discharge.

It was my thought too, that she flinched with finger on trigger as the officer beside her was readying a taser. That was my take away from watching the video from the chopper. I was speaking with a retired LEO today and he felt her shot was justified as it was his perception the perp was reaching into the vehicle....hard to tell from the video.
And, as was said earlier, compliance makes all the difference!!!

[RomanCandle]

Originally Posted by C4B

Besides the fact that this happened...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHBUdenbT9w

Also since the unfortunate incident in Dallas that wound up with officer deaths..

Mix a little MSM and social media exposure

Add ignorance from all directions and...!

Viola! We have yet another national crisis on our hands.

PS (Yeah I get some perps get belligerent and challenge authority and are sometimes armed, but guess what makes the news.)

Watching this and some of the other videos of cop shootings some of them look much more like a case of the trigger finger safety was malfunctioning rather than a blatant intentional shooting.

[The Reaper]

In my observation and experience, female LEOs have to accelerate their Use of Force continuum because of their more limited ability to subdue or control individuals without assistance.

Think about it, if you are a criminal and you encounter a single officer, and it is a 130 pound female, you may be a lot more inclined to test her physically than if it was a six foot six inch, 260 pound male officer.

TR

[bblhead672]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

In my observation and experience, female LEOs have to accelerate their Use of Force continuum because of their more limited ability to subdue or control individuals without assistance.

Think about it, if you are a criminal and you encounter a single officer, and it is a 130 pound female, you may be a lot more inclined to test her physically than if it was a six foot six inch, 260 pound male officer.

TR

Women can be really ornery, so when I encounter one with a gun I'm very polite.

[Box]

Originally Posted by C4B

Agreed, trial by public opinion needs to stop.

...ha
That's the very nature of the new democracy. Public opinion is exactly why we have the government we have.


Mob rules, and all that jazz.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick

This is very likely what happened. She "flinched" with her gun pointed at the victim who had just been tazed by the male officer. (ETA: Rule #2 Never put your finger on the trigger unless ready to fire)

No amount of 'wording' is going to make this a good shoot. She should have used better judgement once other officers where there unless the victim had verbally indicated otherwise.

Compliance on the victims part would have resulted in a tow truck and a ride home. He failed too!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39957827

I can appreciate perspective from both sides.
- Yes, he was unarmed.
- Yes, he was not aggressive.
- Yes, he was non compliant.
- Yes, she was fearful.
- Yes, she couldn't possibly know what he was reaching for.
Still, I despite headlines that go along the way of "white cop acquitted after shooting unarmed black man." That statement is true, but not the whole truth and insinuates a divisive propaganda.

In the end, the court cannot prove she intended to kill the poor guy. It worked for Hillary. It should work for her. Both are females, so no double standard and justice is served here. Sound logic, no?

[echoes]

Originally Posted by BuckiBill

If the guy had stayed in his car and said yes sir, no sir.
If he had taken his citation and slowly driven off.
He would still be alive.

Stay the hell in your car.
Do ask told.
Obey the officer.
Get your ticket.
Go to da crib.
Pop open a 40.
Fire up a blunt.
Live another day.

Granted there are untrained bad cops, yet no untrained bad cop wakes up in the morning and says "today I will go to work and shoot someone"

BB,


A very good analysis that people should pay attention to!!! Thank you for posting that!

As for the Betty Shelby case, it has been discussed here locally in Tulsa for quite some time. From what I could gather, Mr. C had multiple arrests, and was a known PCP user to local law enforcement.

That is my only opinion, other than to add that the OKC Black Lives Matter President was here for the verdict reading, and was chomping at the bit to get a real riot going in DT Tulsa. Didn't happen.

WHY WAS SHE HERE?????????

But the quote they gave sure made the papers.

LEO's face a lot of unknowns for sure. But as one very, very wise QP here once told me; You were not there, so how do you know what happened? And in my place I shall always remain, as armchair QB'ing is not my cup of tea.


Holly



http://www.news9.com/story/35459079/...r-betty-shelby

TULSA, Oklahoma -
People took to the streets of downtown Tulsa Wednesday night into Thursday morning, reacting to the not guilty verdict for Betty Shelby.

One of the protests lasted well into the morning.

By early May 18 at 5th and Denver, it was much quieter, but a few hours earlier, protesters blocked the streets and police were out trying to get them to calm down.

The protests eventually moved to the sidewalks, where several conversations broke out between people on both sides.

News On 6 heard one man say he thought justice was served and that Betty Shelby was rightfully acquitted.

But we heard others say Shelby was found not guilty because she's a cop and thinks she might be above the law.

We talked to people on both sides about how everyone responded.

"Sometimes, change comes from starting the conversation," said Black Lives Matter OKC Exec. Director T Sheri Dickerson.

But others said the streets of Tulsa isn't the place for the protests.

"Talk about it on Facebook or somewhere else. Just not on the street. You don't have to block traffic," said Brandon Henson.

We asked police dispatchers if they had any arrests but they say they're not sure.

[Dutch5187]

I recently attended an in-service class about maintaining one's mental health as an officer, and the rotund fellow that was the instructor showed a video. The video was dash cam footage of a traffic stop where the right rear passenger had an active felony warrant for robbery, and he was known to the officer. The officer repeatedly ordered him to show his hands, and he refused, and the officer ended up shooting him based on that noncompliance. The guy dies and no firearm was found at the scene, very similar to the Tulsa incident. Everyone else in the class, approximately 45 rotund fellows, officers from around the state, agreed that it was a good shoot. I've been an officer for 9 years and i just cannot agree that simply failing to comply and show your hands, permits the use of deadly force. It is no wonder that John Q. Public dislikes and distrusts the police.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Dutch5187

I recently attended an in-service class about maintaining one's mental health as an officer, and the rotund fellow that was the instructor showed a video. The video was dash cam footage of a traffic stop where the right rear passenger had an active felony warrant for robbery, and he was known to the officer. The officer repeatedly ordered him to show his hands, and he refused, and the officer ended up shooting him based on that noncompliance. The guy dies and no firearm was found at the scene, very similar to the Tulsa incident. Everyone else in the class, approximately 45 rotund fellows, officers from around the state, agreed that it was a good shoot. I've been an officer for 9 years and i just cannot agree that simply failing to comply and show your hands, permits the use of deadly force. It is no wonder that John Q. Public dislikes and distrusts the police.

It's not necessarily distrust of the police. I love the police and I let them know that at any chance I get. BUT. Police need to relook they're TTPs. I think the number one issue that police think about is not a TTP, but the adage of: "I want to go home to my family tonight." This brings about an attitude of shoot first, defend yourself in court later. Myself, as a non-LEO, if I just shot someone that I thought was a threat, that really wasn't, and didn't have the blood on my face on a camera somewhere (ala Zimmerman), I would go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Police should be held to the highest standard. Above reproach. If you wanted to go home at the end of each shift, you should have been an IT professional. You work in a dangerous world and you have to be ready to die for the belief that you it's not about going home each night, but making sure you protect "Joe Public". This is where me as a retired .mil has a problem. When I joined I basically understood I was already dead and if I was lucky enough not to be at the end, then BONUS! It frees you to run to the sound of gunfire to know that you may die doing it, because God may have already called your number.

I have no sympathy for the scumbags you guys and gals send to dirt naps, but there needs to be a modicum of restraint and attempt to subdue and arrest. After all, I couldn't just shoot anyone I wanted to in combat, just because I wanted to go home at the end of my deployment... even if no one would have known about it, I would have.

[Dutch5187]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

It's not necessarily distrust of the police. I love the police and I let them know that at any chance I get. BUT. Police need to relook they're TTPs. I think the number one issue that police think about is not a TTP, but the adage of: "I want to go home to my family tonight." This brings about an attitude of shoot first, defend yourself in court later. Myself, as a non-LEO, if I just shot someone that I thought was a threat, that really wasn't, and didn't have the blood on my face on a camera somewhere (ala Zimmerman), I would go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Police should be held to the highest standard. Above reproach. If you wanted to go home at the end of each shift, you should have been an IT professional. You work in a dangerous world and you have to be ready to die for the belief that you it's not about going home each night, but making sure you protect "Joe Public". This is where me as a retired .mil has a problem. When I joined I basically understood I was already dead and if I was lucky enough not to be at the end, then BONUS! It frees you to run to the sound of gunfire to know that you may die doing it, because God may have already called your number.

I have no sympathy for the scumbags you guys and gals send to dirt naps, but there needs to be a modicum of restraint and attempt to subdue and arrest. After all, I couldn't just shoot anyone I wanted to in combat, just because I wanted to go home at the end of my deployment... even if no one would have known about it, I would have.

I agree, and the bad thing is that the whole "go home at the end of your shift" mentality is the prevailing method being taught across the country, and it absolutely breeds the idea that 'shoot first defend yourself later' is the only acceptable resolution. I'm not one of these guys with thin blue lines plastered all over my motorcycles and cars and living the first responder life, to me it's just a job, and the job carries some risk, but so do a whole bunch of other jobs. The other problem is the militarization of police, and the prevailing warrior mentality, which deserves a stand alone category for discussion. All in all, they combine to create a dangerous recipe for disaster.

[The Reaper]

I have railed about the militarization of law enforcement for more than 18 years.

I can appreciate not wanting to die on a shift.

I also believe that you should not be wrongfully killed by LEOs for not complying with verbal instructions.

There is a fine line to be walked by all parties.

I have instructed my kids to follow all instructions from the LEOs, and we will sort it out in court later.

TR

[Dutch5187]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I have railed about the militarization of law enforcement for more than 18 years.

I can appreciate not wanting to die on a shift.

I also believe that you should not be wrongfully killed by LEOs for not complying with verbal instructions.

There is a fine line to be walked by all parties.

I have instructed my kids to follow all instructions from the LEOs, and we will sort it out in court later.

TR

Again, i have to agree. Most guys are lured to the cop life by the plethora of cop movies and cop shows as well as the recruiting advertisements showing some guy decked out in MOLLE gear with the word police stenciled twice on everything carrying an M4 with 3 scopes and 4 magazines taped together end over end hanging from a rappel rope trying to breach a 49th story window by himself. I am a supporter of LE (clearly) and just like everyone else i want to go home alive, but I cannot wrap my head around the whole statement that "I feared for my life so i fired my weapon". I've had people at gun point more than once on felony incidents and have experienced time distortion and tunnel vision, but i still don't think it excuses or allows the use of deadly force based simply on non compliance. I literally had a guy refuse to show me his hands 2 hours ago and i did not have to shoot him to get him under control.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Dutch5187

Again, i have to agree. Most guys are lured to the cop life by the plethora of cop movies and cop shows as well as the recruiting advertisements showing some guy decked out in MOLLE gear with the word police stenciled twice on everything carrying an M4 with 3 scopes and 4 magazines taped together end over end hanging from a rappel rope trying to breach a 49th story window by himself. I am a supporter of LE (clearly) and just like everyone else i want to go home alive, but I cannot wrap my head around the whole statement that "I feared for my life so i fired my weapon". I've had people at gun point more than once on felony incidents and have experienced time distortion and tunnel vision, but i still don't think it excuses or allows the use of deadly force based simply on non compliance. I literally had a guy refuse to show me his hands 2 hours ago and i did not have to shoot him to get him under control.

I commend you for your restraint! I also have a problem with militarization of the police force and have seen a Catch 22 within the mentality of it. We add a SWAT team because we need better capabilities, that leads to certain bad guys arming up to a higher level, which makes the police need to increase their TTPs to more lethality, which other bad guys then say im going out in a blaze of glory, etc, etc.

I want everyone to go home at the end of their shift, that means out thinking and out maneuvering the bad guys. Use Waco, TX as an historical lesson. Loony bird guy thinks he's JC incarnate, has a lot of guns on his compound along with many small children. There is no doubt in MY feeble mind that prior to assaulting this compound in the middle of the day, you may just want to execute the arrest warrant off the compound. Too bad their undercover agent and their surveillance team had already been compromised and they still thought it a good idea that they had surprise on their side. It was a disaster waiting to happen. I understand that the difficulties that the ATF had to hurdle, but they threw the execution risk assessment out the window and thought all their Gucci gear door kicker shit would carry the day. On the list of equipment seized at the compound were many guns, but NO NVGs, why couldn't the warrant have been changed to hours of imited visibility?

Zero, none, nada, nyet, out of the box thinking on this raid. Linear HUT, HUT, HUT, KICK THE DOOR, GRUNT, GRUNT.

I can train monkeys to kick down doors and shoot people. It's sexy, I get it, I love being next to a 3 strand flex linear when it goes off, but not when I'm now doing a deliberate assault with no surprise with bad guys that have been waiting for me.

One of my Robin Sage missions was to capture a "Govt Leader" at the True Bluegrass music hall. We totally failed because we were thinking too linearly. Basically an ambush in civilian clothes. We ended up "killing" the guy, but the OBJ was to capture. I still want to redeem myself on that one, but alas, you only get "one shot" in the Q-Course, but it makes you think.

We did some stuff in A-Stan that was definitely outside the box and it worked very well. Some not so sexy. We were always trying to stay ahead of the bad guys and never use the same tactic twice (okay 3 or 4 times but that was pushing the limit). After word spreads on how you did this or that, you start asking for it.

[Dutch5187]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

I commend you for your restraint! I also have a problem with militarization of the police force and have seen a Catch 22 within the mentality of it. We add a SWAT team because we need better capabilities, that leads to certain bad guys arming up to a higher level, which makes the police need to increase their TTPs to more lethality, which other bad guys then say im going out in a blaze of glory, etc, etc.

I want everyone to go home at the end of their shift, that means out thinking and out maneuvering the bad guys. Use Waco, TX as an historical lesson. Loony bird guy thinks he's JC incarnate, has a lot of guns on his compound along with many small children. There is no doubt in MY feeble mind that prior to assaulting this compound in the middle of the day, you may just want to execute the arrest warrant off the compound. Too bad their undercover agent and their surveillance team had already been compromised and they still thought it a good idea that they had surprise on their side. It was a disaster waiting to happen. I understand that the difficulties that the ATF had to hurdle, but they threw the execution risk assessment out the window and thought all their Gucci gear door kicker shit would carry the day. On the list of equipment seized at the compound were many guns, but NO NVGs, why couldn't the warrant have been changed to hours of imited visibility?

Zero, none, nada, nyet, out of the box thinking on this raid. Linear HUT, HUT, HUT, KICK THE DOOR, GRUNT, GRUNT.

I can train monkeys to kick down doors and shoot people. It's sexy, I get it, I love being next to a 3 strand flex linear when it goes off, but not when I'm now doing a deliberate assault with no surprise with bad guys that have been waiting for me.

One of my Robin Sage missions was to capture a "Govt Leader" at the True Bluegrass music hall. We totally failed because we were thinking too linearly. Basically an ambush in civilian clothes. We ended up "killing" the guy, but the OBJ was to capture. I still want to redeem myself on that one, but alas, you only get "one shot" in the Q-Course, but it makes you think.

We did some stuff in A-Stan that was definitely outside the box and it worked very well. Some not so sexy. We were always trying to stay ahead of the bad guys and never use the same tactic twice (okay 3 or 4 times but that was pushing the limit). After word spreads on how you did this or that, you start asking for it.

I don't want to even try to get into any discussion regarding thinking outside the box. The cover-all answer to virtually any question on why do we do this, what's the SOP for that, et cetera is "that's the way we've always done it". It's the weirdest environment I've ever experienced. The dynamics of the job change quite frequently and the past and current regime still operate like we are in the late 80's, early 90's. I dont have the time to write a dissertation to articulate the many points, but to put it simply, i think I'm stuck in the bizarro world.