Defense Secretary to Open All Combat Jobs to Women

[The Reaper]

I will guarantee she cannot satisfactorily perform the basic duties of a rifleman, regardless of her LEO experiences.

A dollar to a doughnut says she will be broken and disabled within 4 years.

After she has proven that with sufficient assistance (and lowering of standards), a woman can do anything a man can do.

"Day seven at the JRTC and it showed on the faces of the young infantrymen. Typical central Louisiana weather in November, the nights were turning, often marked by heavy rains. The platoon sergeant worked hard to keep the troops motivated and moving under their combat loads. No one wanted to be cold or wet, so the rucks were especially heavy. With ammo, rations, and water, each soldier carried well over 100 pounds of gear. After seven days of constant operations, the effects of that weight were showing. Even the fittest of the platoon were hollow-eyed with fatigue. Their reactions were slow and their minds fuzzy. They rucked up and moved on toward their next mission, an attack on a suspected strong point five clicks away. Less than 500 meters into the movement, the tired point man missed seeing movement ahead as he cleared the edge of a small grove. The opposing force (OPFOR) ambushed the platoon with complete surprise. No one survived.

Observation: The average rifle platoon soldier's load at the JRTC is 91 pounds."

I challenge anyone here, male or female, especially those who have never done this before, to put on a ruck containing 91 pounds of anything, including lightweight gear, and walk a few miles, even on level ground, much less up a steep and loose rock grade in terrain a mile or two above sea level.

Imagine that at any moment, an explosion might erupt, followed by long bursts of automatic fire, if you are unable to maintain vigilance while moving tactically.

By the way, this is the basic vanilla rifleman's load, not Spec Ops or anything exotic.

TR

[The Reaper]

"The Rifleman's Load in Afghanistan.

[Bear in mind that this is a basic issued load, devoid of creature comforts or hygiene items.]

10.1.1.3 The Rifleman

Description:

There is one Rifleman within each Fire Team of a Rifle Squad. As a member of the Fire Team, the Rifleman provides security within his assigned sector and engages targets of opportunity as directed by the Fire Team Leader.

The Rifleman is often called upon to serve on special teams, such as breaching, demolition, aid and litter, personnel under custody (PUC) search and control, and anti-armor/bunker teams.

The Rifleman carries perhaps the least casualty-producing weapon within the squad yet this allows the Rifleman more freedom of maneuver and the ability to carry additional ammunition for crew served weapon systems and/or
assist in transporting specialty equipment.

The Modern Warrior’s Combat Load--Dismounted Operations in Afghanistan

Common Tactical Tasks:

• Moves as a member of a Fire Team.
• Engages Targets.
• Enters and clears a room, hallway, stairwell as a member of a Fire Team.
• Enters and clears caves, tunnels, and man-made fortifications.
• Breaches and/or bypasses obstacles.
• Performs Security Checkpoint Operations as a member of a Fire Team.
• Searches personnel under custody.

Equipment Common to Riflemen:

A. Worn on Body/Uniform:
• M4 Carbine with PEQ-2 Laser/PAQ-4 Laser, ACOG/CCO, and 30 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition.
• Desert Camouflage Uniform with Infrared Tape on left sleeve (1”x1”).
• Desert Combat Boots.
• Dog Tags.
• ID Card.
• Undershirt.
• Socks.
• Tactical gloves.
• Interceptor Body Armor with two Small Arms Protective Inserts.
• Advanced Combat Helmet with night vision mounting plate.
• Rigger belt.
• Notebook and pen.
• Watch.
• Knee and elbow pads.
• Sun, Sand, and Dust type Goggles or Wiley-X Goggles.
• Folding Knife/Multi-tool.

B. Worn on Fighting Load Carrier/Interceptor Body Armor:
• MOLLE Fighting Load Carrier with modular MOLLE pouches.
• 180 rounds of 5.56mm ball ammunition.
• Bayonet.
• Fragmentation grenade.
• 64 ounces of water in two 1-quart canteens.
• 100 ounces of water in a hydration bladder.
• Casualty and witness cards.
• Flex cuffs for personnel under custody.
• Night vision equipment (PVS-14/PVS-7).
• Iodine tablets.
• Lensatic compass.
• Flashlight.
• Chemlight.
• First Aid dressing and pouch.
• Canteen Cup.
• Earplugs.

C. Carried in Assault Rucksack:
• MOLLE Assault Rucksack or commercial assault rucksack, with MOLLE attachments.
• 500ml intravenous fluids bag with starter kit.
• 70 ounces of water in a second hydration bladder.
• Two Meals, Ready to Eat (MREs).
• Poncho and/or Bivy Sack.
• Poncho liner.
• Undershirt.
• Spare batteries.
• Two pair of socks.
• Polypropylene or silk long sleeve undershirt.
• M4/M16 Rifle Cleaning Kit.
• Personal hygiene kit.
• Rubber gloves.
• Sling rope with two snap links.

D. Carried in Main Rucksack:

(Main rucksacks were rarely taken on operations during study)

• MOLLE main rucksack with Sleeping Bag Carrier or Large ALICE rucksack.
• Modular Sleeping Bag (one bag per two men).
• Long Polypropylene Underwear of Fleece Jacket and Bibs.
• Two Undershirts.
• Two pairs of socks.
• Cold Weather Gloves.
• Knit/Fleece Cap.
• Additional ammunition.
• Two Meals, Ready to Eat (MREs).
• Sleeping pad.

Special Equipment:

• Lock pick (B).
• Collapsible Riot Baton (B).
• Bolt cutters (C or D).
• Metal detecting wand (C or D).
• 60mm mortar round (C or D).
• Combat Lifesaver Kit (C).
• Personnel Under Custody (PUC) Kit (sand bags, flex cuffs, trash bags, PUC cards, rubber gloves) (C).
• AT4 Anti-armor Weapon. (C or D).
• SMAW-D Bunker Defeat Weapon. (C or D).
• Hooligan Tool. (C or D).
• Sledgehammer. (C or D).
• Entrenching Tool. (C or D).
• M18 Claymore Mine. (C or D).
• Pole-less Litter. (C or D).
• 200 rounds of 5.56mm linked ammunition for M249 SAW. (C or D).

Fighting Load = A+B
Approach March Load = A+B+C
Emergency Approach March Load = A+B+C+D

Average Mission Duration:
48-72 hours

Resupply Items:
Soldiers were resupplied with 2-3 MREs per day and up to 8 liters of water per day. When under fire, Soldiers could expect a resupply of their basic load of ammunition each day.

Duty Position: Rifleman

Average Fighting Load - 63 lbs

Average FL % Body Weight 35.9%

Average Approach March Load - 95 lbs

Average AML % Body Weight - 54.7%

Average Emergency Approach March Load - 124 lbs

Average EAML % Body Weight - 71.41%"

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/m...LoadReport.pdf

Again, this was an average for an Infantryman, but imagine moving tactically with this load, over all terrain, fighting and humping for a week or more without anything more for resupply than food, water, ammo, med supplies, and batteries.

This was the weight and load for a Riflemen. Many jobs in an Infantry Company require the solider to carry even more weight. For example, the EAML for an Assistant Machine Gunner is over 147 pounds. That is more than the average body weight allowed for most females (not a popular point to bring up). Hell, the AMG's Approach March Load of 121 pounds has to be humped ALL OF THE TIME. Anyone who cannot hump their share of the weight quickly becomes a burden as their equipment has to be carried by the remaining platoon members. THAT does not do much for cameraderie or respect, either.

There are no showers, and possibly no water for sanitation purposes for days or even weeks at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I love women.

I have a wife and daughter.

I do not want to see them trying to live this life as a pack mule. I was a strong, healthy young man and it injured me.

And for the very few who can make it briefly as a grunt, I predict a painful life afterwards to reflect on that misspent youth.

This is a social experiment which is going to be expensive and is inevitably doomed to fail.

I would like to challenge the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of the Army to jock up and hump this load in the box with a Rifle Platoon for a week to gain a little understanding of what their subordinates are expected to do, and what they are about to ask our women to do.

TR

[frostfire]

Will it be the ranger school haircut standards?
Heavens forbid she uses the potable water supply to wash her hair. The ladies did this during my my course. No one was amused. Imagine coming back tired, hungry, thirsty to refill your canteen and discover that.

Probably SHARP and EO complaints within a few weeks

[ddoering]

Originally Posted by Pete

So right from the get go she'll be special "... The Army explained that the 14-month delay "is to allow the Army to properly prepare for new trainees by having trained female officers and [noncommissioned officers] in position."..."

She should get a Noble Prize. The precedent is already there.

[Sohei]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

So on a nice long foot patrol where are these women going to take a shit at? How about the men? I dont want to watch a woman do her business and sure as hell dont want one watching me. Go off by yourself in a combat zone? What could go wrong there? How about on a long patrol the female 11B starts her menstrual cycle and is out of tampons? Are tampons going to be part of the next resupply mission taking up room for ammo, water and other essental gear? I wonder if the academic types thought about these little problems in the field.

I guess we could air drop port-a-potties along the patrol route ahead of time.

Guess I am just not enlightened.

They haven't thought that far ahead. They don't want logic to interfere with agenda. Besides that, the decision makers won't be affected by any of it...so they really don't care.

[JimP]

Reaper, I was an O/C at JRTC for two years. I had females admit to me that they tried to get pregnant to avoid the rotation. I can't imagine how it'll be when a shooting war is ongoing.

Most would NOT drink water so that they could avoid being uncomfortable urinating in front of/around men. Many (most) wound up getting a hoo-infection and would get pulled off the line.

The problem is not only one of physical endurance and strength, it is one of how long can you be nasty and food/water deprived and still be combat effective. Females simply have "issues" in this arena. Louisiana is a nasty place in the summer....but no-where as nasty as some of the battlefields in which we operate.

[18Ddave]

As many have already stated, this is purely political. To think that money, time and effort was spent to analyze something almost every individual in combat arms already knew since, um.... since a male pseudo-monkey was able to use a femur for a club. War has damn near been the natural state of mankind; imposing one's will on another or taking their shit. If there was ever a point in time in the last 60,000 years that an army gained some sort of distinct advantage by having women as a fighters, don't you think someone would have used them before now? I'm not talking about the brave, hard working females that have supported our wars with specialties to win the fight but actual ground pounding fighters.

If I was a leader of a country with access to cannon fodder wouldn't I at least consider fodder that can win my objectives? It's complete insanity. There is no other way to put it. The objective of an army is to fight and defend its nation's interests. Can I use an overused shit officer term?... how is this 'value added'?

The fools who think women can be front line fighters believe some how technology and modern warfare has now opened the door. I pipe dream conjured up by the PC machine, feminists, Hollywood and political elite. No level-headed politician will touch it now because it would be tantamount to committing political suicide; being labeled a sexist. The job of discrediting this administrations appointees fell on the leadership in the officer corps and they did worse than fail, they supported it. The officer corps did not learn a single goddamn thing after almost 15 years of war. The USMC were the only ones that conducted some type of due diligence and presented the facts; women cannot perform the job anywhere near the level as men. The army sent women to an already watered down Ranger school after months of preparation and mentorship and that was their litmus test. What a fucking joke.
All in all what is done is done. There is no turning back now. It is happening whether we like it or not.

This administration will have blood on their hands as well as the combat-avoiding ticket punching officers that supported this when our next major conflict occurs.
You can guaran-fucking-tee that price will be paid by OUR sons and daughters and not theirs.

The only thing I feel we can do as a Regiment at this point is fight to the bitter end to maintain high standards at any and all costs. And that includes keeping team week motherfuckers. Because you know that is the first thing they will get rid of because there are technically 'no standards' in team week. SWCS leadership pulled this shit when congress mandated SOF expansion after 9-11 SWCS bottomed out the standards and removed team week when they weren't churing out numbers sometime in 04-05.

[Mills]

I am excited to see what happens after some chick fails to meet the standard time and time again and then is slapped with an EO or SHARP Complaint and then a Team Sergeant goes fucking nuclear on the Battalion SHARP rep (Or company since im sure those will be MTOE positions once this dumpster fire ensues).

This organization is ours.

Not appointed, unelected civilians with zero experience.

[Miles]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

How about on a long patrol the female 11B starts her menstrual cycle and is out of tampons? Are tampons going to be part of the next resupply mission taking up room for ammo, water and other essental gear? I wonder if the academic types thought about these little problems in the field.....

As I recall during the Gulf War, the women were given bags full of oral contraceptives and were told to not take the week of 'blanks'. One of the medical specialists here will have to confirm this, but as I also recall, doing that for an extended length of time could turn out to cause more problems later.

[Pete]

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus says decision on women in combat is irreversible

http://www.fayobserver.com/military/...b5a58f39c.html

Lots of "Rah, Rah, can do" in this story. Young guys think it will be the older Marines that will have a problem with this.

But way down at the bottom of the story....

"...Gen. Robert Neller, the Marine Corps commandant, told senators in February that he worried about retention, injury rates and unit effectiveness.

"We have a decision and we're in the process of moving out," Neller said. "We will see where the chips fall. And, again, our hope is that everyone will be successful. But hope is not a course of action on the battlefield."

Neller told senators that Marine Corps testing revealed two significant differences between all-male units and those with men and women. He said all-male units were able to better march long distances carrying heavy loads and also were able to fire their weapons more accurately after marching over distance.

Being big and strong and having a "certain body mass give you an advantage," said Neller."


Well, he is an older Marine.

[18Ddave]

Originally Posted by Mills

I am excited to see what happens after some chick fails to meet the standard time and time again and then is slapped with an EO or SHARP Complaint and then a Team Sergeant goes fucking nuclear on the Battalion SHARP rep (Or company since im sure those will be MTOE positions once this dumpster fire ensues).

This organization is ours.

Not appointed, unelected civilians with zero experience.

Your goddamn right brother.... even for the retired guys, its still our Regiment, our Army and our Military. The groundpounder bears the burden and we know the price of weakness and failure on the battlefield.

[DIYPatriot]

When Capt. Kristen M. Griest made history last summer by becoming one of the first two women to graduate the Army’s legendarily difficult Ranger School, she made her intentions clear: She was considering joining a Special Operations unit. Now, she has accomplished another first with some similar demands: becoming the U.S. military’s first female infantry officer.

Griest, 27, requested a transfer to become an infantry officer, and it was accepted Monday, said Lt. Col. Jerry Pionk, an Army spokesman. On Thursday, she will graduate from the Maneuver Captains Career Course at Fort Benning, Ga., which teaches students how to do tactical planning for infantry companies and battalions and lead as a company commander.

“Like any other officer wishing to branch-transfer, Capt. Griest applied for an exception to Army policy to transfer from military police to infantry,” said Bob Purtiman, a spokesman for the Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning. “Her transfer was approved by the Department of the Army, and she’s now an infantry officer.”

Continued

[Pete]

An Infantry Company Commander who has never been an Infantry Platoon Leader is going to be counseling her platoon leaders on how to do it right.

Works for the PC crowd.

[cbtengr]

Originally Posted by Pete

An Infantry Company Commander who has never been an Infantry Platoon Leader is going to be counseling her platoon leaders on how to do it right.

Works for the PC crowd.

Wouldn't you think as a West Pointer she would feel a bit sheepish about backing into this position on an exception to Army policy.

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by cbtengr

Wouldn't you think as a West Pointer she would feel a bit sheepish about backing into this position on an exception to Army policy.

Her actions/behaviors clearly show she has no concern so long as she gets her attention and special treatment.