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Old 07-24-2015, 07:07   #316
Hand
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Originally Posted by sinjefe View Post
^^^^^ Did you miss "deputy sheriff's false statements to a judge last year set in motion a chain of events that led to the critical injury of a toddler"?
No sinjefe, I did not miss that.
In my badly worded attempt to draw attention to other aspects of this case and the misinformation so commonly present in the media, I neglected to address that item.
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Old 07-24-2015, 20:01   #317
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No sinjefe, I did not miss that.
In my badly worded attempt to draw attention to other aspects of this case and the misinformation so commonly present in the media, I neglected to address that item.
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That story is very inflamatory IMHO. While the facts of the case include the team throwing a flash-bang that burned the infant, that unfortunate and hopefully unintended event occurred during the attempted arrest of a drug dealer with a previous weapons charge.

I had to dig quite a bit to find out anything about this besides the infant being wounded.



What is the real story here? The horrible evil po-lice and their counter civil-rights hi-speed gear and tactics?

Is it the collateral damage caused by misapplied tactics and misused weaponry?

Should the police department have waited until the subjects had left the house and risked a car chase or shoot out in a less contained environment?

Or maybe, just like the character Ivelda Drumgo in Hannibal (who walked around with a baby and an uzi in a sling on her chest) , some vile filth drug dealers put a baby in front of the door to keep the five-oh out.
I think that you greatly undermine your efforts to draw attention to "misinformation" propagated by the media IRT this incident
  • by adopting the patois of an undisclosed group to make a point about Wanis Thonetheva,
  • by using a fictitious event to make a point the use of deadly force in apprehending a suspect, and, further,
    • by missing the point of the opening scene of Hannibal (2001): the firefight ensues because Bolton, a police officer, blows off Starling's order,
    • [if you're referring to the book you missed two crucial points: (a) Starling asks for the location of Drumgo's kids, and, (b) moments later, makes sure she doesn't judge locals by their looks alone.] and,
  • by disregarding the previous posts in this thread as well as many other threads on this BB about LEOs operating beyond the scope of the law and using paramilitary tactics when lawful and less confrontational approaches may work just as well.
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Old 07-24-2015, 21:04   #318
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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.

To serve, and to protect?

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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...059_story.html

By Alex Horton July 24 at 2:05 PM

Alex Horton is a member of the Defense Council at the Truman National Security Project. He served as an infantryman in Iraq with the Army's 3rd Stryker Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division.

I got home from the bar soon after Saturday night bled into Sunday morning and fell into bed. I didn't wake up until three police officers barged into my apartment, barking their presence at my door. They sped down the hallway to my bedroom, their service pistols drawn and leveled at me.

It was just past 9 a.m., and I was still under the covers. The only visible target was my head.

In the shouting and commotion, I felt an instant familiarity. I'd been here before. This was a raid.

I had done this a few dozen times myself, 6,000 miles away from my Alexandria, Va., apartment. As an Army infantryman in Iraq, I'd always been on the trigger side of the weapon. Now that I was on the barrel side, I recalled basic training's most important firearm rule: Aim only at something you intend to kill.

I had conducted the same kind of raid on suspected bombmakers and high-value insurgents. But the Fairfax County officers in my apartment were aiming their weapons at a target whose rap sheet included parking tickets and an overdue library book.

My situation was terrifying. Lying facedown in bed, I knew that any move I made could be viewed as a threat. Instinct told me to get up and protect myself. My training told me that if I did, these officers would shoot me dead.

In a panic, I asked the officers what was going on but got no immediate answer. Their tactics were similar to the ones I used to clear rooms during the height of guerilla warfare in Iraq. I could almost admire it - their fluid sweep from the bedroom doorway to the distant corner. They stayed clear of one another's lines of fire in case they needed to empty their Sig Sauer .40-caliber pistols into me.

They were well-trained, their supervisor later told me. But I knew that means little when adrenaline is injected into an imminent-danger scenario, real or imagined. Triggers are pulled. Mistakes are made.

I spread my arms out to either side. An officer jumped onto my bed and locked handcuffs onto my wrists. The officers rolled me from side to side, searching my boxers for weapons, then yanked me up to sit on the edge of the bed.

At first, I was stunned. I searched my memory for any incident that would justify a police raid. Then, it clicked.

Earlier in the week, the managers of my apartment complex moved me to a model unit while a crew repaired a leak in my dishwasher. But they hadn't informed my temporary neighbors. So when one resident noticed the door slightly cracked open to what he presumed was an unoccupied apartment, he looked in, saw me sleeping and called the police to report a squatter.

Sitting on the edge of the bed dressed only in underwear, I laughed. The situation was ludicrous and embarrassing. My only mistake had been failing to make sure the apartment door was completely closed before I threw myself into bed the night before.

I told the officers to check my driver's license, nodding toward my khaki pants on the floor. It showed my address at a unit in the same complex. As the fog of their chaotic entry lifted, the officers realized it had been an unfortunate error. They walked me into the living room and removed the cuffs, though two continued to stand over me as the third contacted management to confirm my story. Once they were satisfied, they left.

When I later visited the Fairfax County police station to gather details about what went wrong, I met the shift commander, Lt. Erik Rhoads. I asked why his officers hadn't contacted management before they raided the apartment. Why did they classify the incident as a forced entry, when the information they had suggested something innocuous? Why not evaluate the situation before escalating it?

Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers' actions "on point." It's not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me.

I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex's security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: "It doesn't matter whatsoever what was said or not said at the security booth.

This is where Rhoads is wrong. We've seen this troubling approach to law enforcement nationwide, in militarized police responses to nonviolent protesters and in fatal police shootings of unarmed citizens. The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before their minds devalues information-gathering and endorses the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers' personal security. That approach has caused public trust in law enforcement to deteriorate.

It's the same culture that characterized the early phases of the Iraq war, in which I served a 15-month tour in 2006 and 2007. Soldiers left their sprawling bases in armored vehicles, leveling buildings with missile strikes and shooting up entire blocks during gun battles with insurgents, only to return to their protected bases and do it all again hours later.

The short-sighted notion that we should always protect ourselves first endangered us more in the long term. It was a flawed strategy that could often create more insurgents than it stopped and inspired some Iraqis to hate us rather than help us.

In one instance in Baghdad, a stray round landed in a compound that our unit was building. An overzealous officer decided that we were under attack and ordered machine guns and grenade launchers to shoot at distant rooftops. A row of buildings caught fire, and we left our compound on foot, seeking to capture any injured fighters by entering structures choked with flames.

Instead, we found a man frantically pulling his furniture out of his house. "Thank you for your security!" he yelled in perfect English. He pointed to the billowing smoke. "This is what you call security?"

We didn't find any insurgents. There weren't any. But it was easy to imagine that we forged some in that fire. Similarly, when U.S. police officers use excessive force to control nonviolent citizens or respond to minor incidents, they lose supporters and public trust.

That's a problem, because law enforcement officers need the cooperation of the communities they patrol in order to do their jobs effectively. In the early stages of the war, the U.S. military overlooked that reality, as well. Leaders defined success as increasing military hold on geographic terrain, while the human terrain was the real battle. For example, when our platoon entered Iraq's volatile Diyala province in early 2007, children at a school plugged their ears just before an IED exploded beneath one of our vehicles. The kids knew what was coming, but they saw no reason to warn us. Instead, they watched us drive right into the ambush. One of our men died, and in the subsequent crossfire, several insurgents and children were killed. We saw Iraqis cheering and dancing at the blast crater as we left the area hours later.

With the U.S. effort in Iraq faltering, Gen. David Petraeus unveiled a new counterinsurgency strategy that year. He believed that showing more restraint during gunfights would help foster Iraqis' trust in U.S. forces and that forming better relationships with civilians would improve our intelligence-gathering. We refined our warrior mentality - the one that directed us to protect ourselves above all else - with a community-building component.

My unit began to patrol on foot almost exclusively, which was exceptionally more dangerous than staying inside our armored vehicles. We relinquished much of our personal security by entering dimly lit homes in insurgent strongholds. We didn't know if the hand we would shake at each door held a detonator to a suicide vest or a small glass of hot, sugary tea.

But as a result, we better understood our environment and earned the allegiance of some people in it. The benefits quickly became clear. One day during that bloody summer, insurgents loaded a car with hundreds of pounds of explosives and parked it by a school. They knew that we searched every building for hidden weapons caches, and they waited for us to gather near the car. But as we turned the corner to head toward the school, several Iraqis told us about the danger. We evacuated civilians from the area and called in a helicopter gunship to fire at the vehicle.

The resulting explosion pulverized half the building and blasted the car's engine block through two cement walls. Shrapnel dropped like jagged hail as far as a quarter-mile away.

If we had not risked our safety by patrolling the neighborhood on foot, trusting our sources and gathering intelligence, it would have been a massacre. But no one was hurt in the blast.

(Cont. at link above.)
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Old 07-24-2015, 21:17   #319
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I had a real problem with the Bland case in Tx the other day. A woman pulled over for failing to use her turn signal ends up in jail for 3 days and kills herself. I only watched part of the footage, but read some of the excertps about how she refused to put out her cigarette and was immediately ordered out of the car by the officer. I would argue that that was an illegal order,since police can only order you out of your car for "their safety", and unlawful imprisonment if that is in fact the case. This is America, we are supposed to be free.
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Old 07-24-2015, 21:54   #320
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I had a real problem with the Bland case in Tx the other day. A woman pulled over for failing to use her turn signal ends up in jail for 3 days and kills herself. I only watched part of the footage, but read some of the excertps about how she refused to put out her cigarette and was immediately ordered out of the car by the officer. I would argue that that was an illegal order,since police can only order you out of your car for "their safety", and unlawful imprisonment if that is in fact the case. This is America, we are supposed to be free.
You might want to watch the whole video and then comment. Plus pay attention to some other aspects of the story.

More than likely she was only going to get a warning, but she decided to argue with the officer who had been polite up until then.

Bland told her mother, “My purpose is to go back to Texas and stop all of the injustices in the South.”

She admitted on the booking form that she had tried to commit suicide in the past.

Motive: To stop all of the injustices in the South.

Opportunity: Being pulled over for a minor infraction and escalating it to an arrest.

Means: Using the seemingly senseless arrest to commit suicide while in custody.

Food for thought.

Pat
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Old 07-24-2015, 22:22   #321
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I don't get for the life of me, how a police officer could tell a person to put out their cigarette legally? I understand manners, and the woman obviously had her problems, I heard about the cutting scars from the autopsy. I saw that snipet of one of her last conversations. I don't see how that could be a master plan. I think the woman was simply troubled and looking for a better life.

Last edited by blacksmoke; 07-24-2015 at 22:30. Reason: Found what I was looking for.
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Old 07-24-2015, 22:44   #322
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"Yeah, I am a little irritated, but that doesn't stop you from giving me a ticket, so...." "Are you done?"
"You asked me what's wrong and I told you, so now I'm done, yeah."
"OK." Long pause by officer, "You mind puttin out your cigarette, please..inaudible?" "I'm in my car, why do I have to put out my cigarette?"
"Well you can step on out now."
"I don't have to step out of my car."
"Step out of the car."
"Why am I...no,don't, no you don't have the right..."
He says he's giving her a lawful order, and I don't understand that. His safety was in no way compromised.
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Old 07-25-2015, 00:29   #323
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Originally Posted by PSM View Post
You might want to watch the whole video and then comment. Plus pay attention to some other aspects of the story.

More than likely she was only going to get a warning, but she decided to argue with the officer who had been polite up until then.

Bland told her mother, “My purpose is to go back to Texas and stop all of the injustices in the South.”

She admitted on the booking form that she had tried to commit suicide in the past.

Motive: To stop all of the injustices in the South.

Opportunity: Being pulled over for a minor infraction and escalating it to an arrest.

Means: Using the seemingly senseless arrest to commit suicide while in custody.

Food for thought.

Pat

Taking one for the team, Her own personal Jihad of sorts minus a suicide vest or vbid...........it could never happen in Amerika
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:02   #324
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http://www.dailydot.com/politics/sou...ie-troy-goode/

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/n...aven/30411343/



Cliff notes:
Chemical Engineer - white guy. Drunk (not driving) - stops in parking lot and acts "drunk". Police hogtie him -they lied and said they only cuffed and put leg irons on him despite the videos. Says he can't breathe, wife says he has asthma and needs inhaler. Police threaten to arrest her and any family when he is taken to hospital if they show up to check on him. Dies either on way to hospital or in hospital.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:15   #325
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Taking one for the team, Her own personal Jihad of sorts minus a suicide vest or vbid...........it could never happen in Amerika
Seriously? You really think this?
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Old 07-25-2015, 12:41   #326
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I don't get for the life of me, how a police officer could tell a person to put out their cigarette legally?
It's rather standard "street procedure" for police. Unless engaged in an obviously casual, friendly conversation, an officer will usually not want a civilian holding a lit cigarette in their hand if within arms reach. You'll note that the matter of the cigarette came up as the officer was filling out a traffic citation, and (presumably) preparing to hand it to the driver for signature. During my years on the street, I followed that procedure if a conversation appeared to have the potential to turn into a confrontation.
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Old 07-25-2015, 13:02   #327
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It's rather standard "street procedure" for police. Unless engaged in an obviously casual, friendly conversation, an officer will usually not want a civilian holding a lit cigarette in their hand if within arms reach. You'll note that the matter of the cigarette came up as the officer was filling out a traffic citation, and (presumably) preparing to hand it to the driver for signature. During my years on the street, I followed that procedure if a conversation appeared to have the potential to turn into a confrontation.
With all due respect, that method in and of itself is troubling. It states that there is the possibility to assault him with her cigarette while siting in her car, unless she puts it out she is a threat. She is upset about a traffic ticket, seems to me to be a normal reaction, not a nice one, but not out of the ordinary. "Maam if you burn me with that cigarette it will be considered assault on a police officer." Was ordering her to put it out a lawful order?
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Old 07-25-2015, 16:19   #328
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Seriously? You really think this?
It is possible it was due to mental illness, SSRI intake or police brutality.

Honestly I don't know what she did or didn't do, but I do believe there are people in all walks of life that are willing to take one for their team to further their agenda or merely for the purpose of spite... If you think there are not or it cannot happen in the Good Ole USA I believe you are kidding yourself.
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Old 07-25-2015, 17:18   #329
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With all due respect, that method in and of itself is troubling. .... "Maam if you burn me with that cigarette it will be considered assault on a police officer." Was ordering her to put it out a lawful order?
Not to wax dramatic, but the same could be said for "Sir, if you shoot me with that 12 gauge....." instead of "put it down".

An old "bar fighter" routine often includes flicking a cigarette into someone's face to gain advantage.

Yes, it's a lawful order. A number (and I don't have it) of officers have been burned while reaching into a car to hand a driver a ticket.

I've had my butt chewed by a Sgt. who rolled up on a scene where we were retrieving a young offender from his Grandma's home, though every step was by the book. Grandma was argumentative, but remained sitting in her rocking chair with her knitting. No sweat.

The Sgt. had a different viewpoint toward the 12-16 inch knitting needles I had left sitting in her lap.

Of course, after ordering the driver to put down or put out the cigarette, you then hand them a pointed object to use to sign the ticket.
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Old 07-25-2015, 18:22   #330
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I believe the officer was wrong in this case. The woman was sitting in her car, not a threat, and smoking the entire time. It isn't until he paused because he became upset that the cigarette became an issue. A cigarette in a bar fight and a woman at a traffic stop can in no way be compared. She was obviously not a threat. If she was the whole story would be different. That was a cowardly act in my opinion.
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