07-20-2014, 18:13
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#46
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM
Damn! He and I are about the same size, and I'm older, but he makes me look in pretty damn good shape.  I guess the extra blubber is for the harsh Russian winters. 
Pat |
See if you can kill 298 people and get away with it.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-20-2014, 20:52
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#47
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-20-2014, 21:01
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#48
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NorCal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM
Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
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Zebras.
I'm hearing horses.
Richard
__________________
“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)
“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Richard is offline
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07-20-2014, 21:55
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#49
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Zebras.
I'm hearing horses.
Richard
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An investigator should not even be hearing crickets. But I ain't one. I do not believe in coincidence either, though.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-21-2014, 02:56
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#50
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Area Commander
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA-Germany
Posts: 1,574
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David Cameron to Vladimir Putin: Drop rebels
Quote:
David Cameron to Vladimir Putin: Drop rebels
By: Associated Press
July 20, 2014 01:18 PM EDT
LONDON — British Prime Minister David Cameron demanded Sunday that Russia end its support for the rebels in Ukraine, arguing that Russia’s policies destabilized the country and created the conditions that appear to have led to the downing of Malaysian Airways Flight 17.
In an unusual front-page op-ed in the Sunday Times, Cameron says there is growing evidence that separatist rebels, backed by Russia, shot down the aircraft, killing 298 people.
“If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them,” Cameron wrote.
The British leader said that if Russian President Vladimir Putin stopped supporting the rebels then the crisis in Ukraine could be brought to an end.
“If President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia,” he wrote
Views in London are hardening on Ukraine amid anger over access at the crash site. Images from the site have shown rebels picking through the wreckage and personal belongings of victims.
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond told the BBC that Putin could “snap his fingers” to allow a proper investigation.
“The eyes of the world are on Vladimir Putin and what we are seeing from the Russians is obfuscation and obstruction at the moment,” Hammond said.
Cameron also took European leaders to task for vacillating on Ukraine. While some countries have pushed for tough action against Russia, others have tried to contain the crisis.
“In Europe we should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries,” he wrote. “We should not need reminding of the consequences of letting the doctrine of `might is right’ prevail.”
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http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.c...8-69C3FA4E146C
__________________
"Men Wanted: for Hazardous Journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success.” -Sir Ernest Shackleton
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akv is offline
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07-21-2014, 11:52
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#51
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Just above the flood plain in Southern Texas
Posts: 3,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akv
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Preface - I am in no way supporting Russia.
But, the more I read from Cameron and our fearless leader touting their decisive leadership around the world. It makes me wonder what fabrications and obfuscating the "West" would be making if a similar situation takes place over say Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan.
Quote:
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“If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them,” Cameron wrote.
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Pot meet Kettle! 
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You only live once; live well. Have no regrets when the end happens!
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Sir Edmund Burke)
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Old Dog New Trick is offline
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07-21-2014, 12:00
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#52
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Just above the flood plain in Southern Texas
Posts: 3,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM
Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
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My thoughts too. And if there is proof that Ukraine ATC redirected the flight, I believe crickets is all that we will hear. But I find that hard to believe in this day and age of digital recordings.
The truth will come out by one means or another...same as if the SA-11 was battlefield recovery (i.e., Ukrainian) or supplied directly by the Russians (or trained there of.)
Maybe just an example of incredibly bad luck complicated by tremendous stupidity!
__________________
You only live once; live well. Have no regrets when the end happens!
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Sir Edmund Burke)
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Old Dog New Trick is offline
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07-21-2014, 12:51
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#53
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 11 miles from Dove Creek, Colorady
Posts: 3,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Vlad the Puta is still pissed that he was demoted from a prestigious position as a Major in the KGB to President of Russia, that the USSR lost the "Cold War" and Drago lost to Rocky Balboa, and that he's now losing this media campaign in the international marketplace at a time he can't economically afford it.
It's been a tough couple of decades for the guy - he's already lost his shirt and the fish still aren't taking his bait.
Richard
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He's hot!
__________________
"...But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive."
Shakespeare - Henry V
Lazy Bob Ranch
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Utah Bob is offline
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07-21-2014, 14:38
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#54
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Sandy, Utah
Posts: 214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM
Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
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Vlad's already got his hands on that and turned it over to Louis Lerner's I.T. department 
__________________
I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like....victory!
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Dean Jarvis is offline
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07-21-2014, 14:43
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#55
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Jarvis
Vlad's already got his hands on that and turned it over to Louis Lerner's I.T. department |
And AG Holder says he is looking into it.
He is putting the ATF on the case, along with some underemployed ICE agents.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-21-2014, 14:53
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#56
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Area Commander
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northeast Utah
Posts: 1,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
And AG Holder says he is looking into it.
He is putting the ATF on the case, along with some underemployed ICE agents.
TR
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All this promptly after first hearing about it on the news....
__________________
"The dignity of man is not shattered in a single blow, but slowly softened, bent, and eventually neutered. Men are seldom forced to act, but are constantly restrained from acting. Such power does not destroy outright, but prevents genuine existence. It does not tyrannize immediately, but it dampens, weakens, and ultimately suffocates, until the entire population is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid, uninspired animals, of which the government is shepherd." - Alexis de Tocqueville
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PedOncoDoc is offline
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07-21-2014, 16:18
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#57
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Asset
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Ozark, Al
Posts: 28
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The poor souls onboard sure had a long ride down.
check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
17-JUL-2014 - Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER accident
A Boeing 777-200 passenger plane, operating Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed in the Ukraine, east of Donetsk. All 298 on board are feared dead. The Ukraine Interior Ministry Adviser stated that the airplane was shot down. Flight MH17 departed the gate at Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands at 12:14 hours local time, bound for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It was airborne at 12:30 (10:30 UTC) from runway 36C and reached a cruising altitude of FL310 at 12:53 (10:53 UTC). Ninety minutes into the flight, at 12:01 UTC and just prior to entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight climbed to FL330. This altitude was maintained until last contact by ADS-B receivers of flight tracking websites, about 13:19 UTC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
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Nonstop24/7 is offline
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07-21-2014, 16:28
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#58
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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I'm extremely surprised to see the right wing still attached. It might have been flyable if the cockpit crew were not incapacitated unless the fly-by-wire system was destroyed somehow.
Pat
__________________
"Hector Lives!"
"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen." -- Dennis Prager
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it." --H.L. Mencken
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PSM is offline
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07-21-2014, 17:16
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#59
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonstop24/7
The poor souls onboard sure had a long ride down.
check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
17-JUL-2014 - Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER accident
A Boeing 777-200 passenger plane, operating Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed in the Ukraine, east of Donetsk. All 298 on board are feared dead. The Ukraine Interior Ministry Adviser stated that the airplane was shot down. Flight MH17 departed the gate at Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands at 12:14 hours local time, bound for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It was airborne at 12:30 (10:30 UTC) from runway 36C and reached a cruising altitude of FL310 at 12:53 (10:53 UTC). Ninety minutes into the flight, at 12:01 UTC and just prior to entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight climbed to FL330. This altitude was maintained until last contact by ADS-B receivers of flight tracking websites, about 13:19 UTC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo |
The videos are of the AN-30 shot down on 14 July, not Malaysian Air MH-17.
Time of useful consciousness is very brief at that altitude. Most were probably out long before impact.
The fragmentation of the warhead likely shredded the engine, wing (causing the fuel leak and fire), and vented the fuselage in hundreds of places.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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07-21-2014, 18:03
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#60
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orange, Ca.
Posts: 4,950
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The older SAM's from the Vietnam Era used bundles of rods scattered by the warhead. Is this style still used?
Last edited by mark46th; 07-21-2014 at 18:05.
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mark46th is offline
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