Does the "Regular Army" hate SF?

[Max Power]

Speaking from personal experience and the perspective of an infantryman in the 82nd, there are a couple of understandable reasons. When our CSM sees a guy going to selection, more often than not, he's an above-average soldier, one that adds a lot to the unit, and would hurt to lose him. Knowing that he is an above average soldier, he knows that there is a much higher probability that he WILL be "lost" to SF, as opposed to Joe Shitbag that's going. So he does everything he can to talk guys out of it. But once he receives official word that he's going, he KNOWS he can't do anything about it. Much of the flack and harassment comes from the company level on down in an effort to make it seem, to CSM, that they're doing everything they can to keep a squared away soldier, with a lot of combat experience, in the unit.

Of course, you run across the occasional PSG/SL that tells his guys, "You want out of this unit? You are sure you want to go SF? Good, go for it, get the fuck outta here, cause we will deploy again, and it sucks to be here in garrison. I'll back you 110% and do whatever you need me to do to make it happen." And, deep down (I've seen it personally) the CSM is happy to see guys trying to make a better career for themselves in the Army, he just hates losing good guys with a passion. Which is understandable.

[Kuri]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Speaking from personal experience and the perspective of an infantryman in the 82nd, there are a couple of understandable reasons. When our CSM sees a guy going to selection, more often than not, he's an above-average soldier, one that adds a lot to the unit, and would hurt to lose him. Knowing that he is an above average soldier, he knows that there is a much higher probability that he WILL be "lost" to SF, as opposed to Joe Shitbag that's going. So he does everything he can to talk guys out of it. But once he receives official word that he's going, he KNOWS he can't do anything about it. Much of the flack and harassment comes from the company level on down in an effort to make it seem, to CSM, that they're doing everything they can to keep a squared away soldier, with a lot of combat experience, in the unit.

Of course, you run across the occasional PSG/SL that tells his guys, "You want out of this unit? You are sure you want to go SF? Good, go for it, get the fuck outta here, cause we will deploy again, and it sucks to be here in garrison. I'll back you 110% and do whatever you need me to do to make it happen." And, deep down (I've seen it personally) the CSM is happy to see guys trying to make a better career for themselves in the Army, he just hates losing good guys with a passion. Which is understandable.

Gentlemen, I truly appreciate the input. My intent was to find more knowledgeable sources to pose this question to and you guys have helped alot. Thanks again.

[12B4S]

Outstanding question Kuri... spans the decades. (Mr Harsey knew that ) Even going back to my time. First, the replies you have received from these men are dead on,although I really don't have much experience about the heart of your question. As far as I knew in the late 60's, early 70's it didn't exist. No doubt it did, unfortunatley #%$#@ politics have ALWAYS been a gigantic factor in alllllll militaries since day one.

Anyway, I'm straying... hmmmm going to stray again... just a bit. Even from my day there was that crap, just from going leg to Airborne.

K, I'll cool it now..... but I do have some ideas for a couple new threads.

[uboat509]

The 82nd seems to harbor a great deal of animosity towards the SF community. I have several buddies who came from there and most of them have the same story, "When I told them that I was going to selection they tried to (threaten/coerce/cajole) me into not going. After I came back from selection they took away my (squad/team/section) and treated me like crap." I heard the word traitor bandied about quit abit as well. Another buddy of mine was told by his Squadron commander "there is nothing special about Special Forces." Granted this is all anecdotal but there does seem to be a pattern. One interesting thing that I have seen is that I have not met anyone who came out of a non-combat arms MOS who got a ration of crap from their COC it seems to mostly come from the combat arms.

[12B4S]

uboat509..... Don't know about now, but when I was at Bragg that was definately the case and sure doubt it's changed. I was there in 1969. At that time the riggers in the 82nd packed all the chutes for SF at Bragg, at least those of us in training. There was a time for several weeks or so, there was this rash of malfunctions. An investigation was conducted and they found a couple 82nd riggers were, well.... rigging chutes tagged for SF... TO... malfunction.

There was also a SHORT period of time, where somewhere up thier chain of command some officer was offering 82nd guys a 3 day pass if they brought in a beret ( the beret itself). Notice. I said "SHORT"? Wellllll one of our officers upped it one. He told us if we bring back an 82nd soldier, we would get a 3 day pass. That was the end of stolen berets.

[RANGER X]

Kuri,

I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.

Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

RANGER X

[QRQ 30]

Originally Posted by RANGER X

Kuri,

I was just relieved of my job as a Platoon Sergeant for volunteering. I am in the 82nd and a Senior SFC.

Reaper I just came across this thread after I PM'd you. It hits home. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

RANGER X

As long as you were relieved without prejudice, it makes sense, The platoon needs a PSG who will be there in the event of deployment. When you become a known or presumed loss, you effectiveness decreases.

[RANGER X]

QRQ 30,

Absolutely. I was aware of the risk before I dropped my paperwork. The opportunity presented itself to me after I presumed it was to late. The Recruiters contacted me first and informed me that I fit the criteria that they were looking for. I am not pointing fingers or placing blame on anyone, but merely encouraging one to be aware of the consequences before volunteering. The whole known and presumed loss to the unit makes perfect sense. As far as predjudicial well I will save that subject for another time. Take care.

Ski

[NousDefionsDoc]

Good incentive not to quit.

[Kuri]

Good luck, and thanks for sharing your experiences.

[magician]

When I was a young man in the 2d Ranger Battalion, many, many years ago, there was a bias against SF, a cultural thing, as SF was viewed as "slack," a haven for longhairs, guys who wore sunglasses, cruised around with their hands in their pockets, and who sometimes called their officers by their first names while they squatted around fires with tribal forces that they were working with in godforsaken geographical cul-de-sacs of the third world.

Sounded good to me.

I was lucky, though, as I had guys like Roland Nuqui to look up to, and Greg Gardner, and Ron Braughton, and Frank Wallace, who had all come from SF backgrounds. Nuqui, as you guys know, had run recon. Gardner had been an SF medic, Braughton had been with Project 404, and Wallace had worked with Braughton at Det A. So, these guys all influenced me, and corrected my false impressions, and helped me realize that the biased impression that ran rampant through the ranks was incorrect.

For me, SF was the natural progression of a military evolution as a professional soldier. I was subjected to pressure not to go to SF, of course, but I was intent on it, and after all, the choice was mine.

Later, I became aware of the pressures that others suffered. When I went to IOBC, I was hanging out with Kevin Egan, and met a platoon leader in 3d Ranger Battalion who was ostracized pretty hard when he put in his packet. When I went to the 18A course, there was a guy there who had gone with 3d Bat to Just Cause, and had made the combat jump onto Tocumen, and HE had been given a pretty rough time.

As you guys know, there is a close relationship, for various reasons, between the Ranger Regiment and other special operations units. Those other units also happen to procure a lot of their talent from the ranks of SF. Why there is such a bias against SF among Rangers is something that I really do not understand.

I used to believe that it was cultural, that SF represented the antithesis of many superficial things held dear within the old Battalions, and later, the Regiment, like haircuts, no sunglasses, no hands in the pockets, extreme discipline, etc.....but after I was in SF myself, I realized that hair is just hair, it grows out, and can be cut in a heartbeat, according to the dictates of the mission.....pockets exist for a reason, and if you put your hands in them it does not mean that you lack discipline.

In fact, discipline is in the heart, it is derived from your professionalism, and the discipline of the Ranger Battalions was perfect for its role, for the men in its ranks, who are typically much younger than guys in SF.

SF is different.

In retrospect....I think that there was a strata of old NCOs in the Ranger Battalions who just never went SF, for whatever reason....they were too "old school"....something put them off.....who the hell knows. Then you had a class of officers who recognized that they would lose their best and brightest, most independent-thinking sergeants, to SF....and of course that would not be a good thing, for them, thinking parochially, thinking only in terms of their fiefdoms....and there was the effect on discipline, which Rangers always had to guard against, even when they were working with other special ops units, with their long hair, their sunglasses, their non-standard equipment, methods, tactics, and ways of interacting with one another.

Rangers are elite light infantry. They have to operate that way. Their traditions run deep.

SF is SF. We are not infantry. We can operate alone, in pairs, in split teams, in any of a variety of permutations. Our missions are wildly different.

Different strokes.

I myself believed then, and I believe now, that SF can get some stellar candidates out of the Ranger Regiment. Rangers have an op tempo that is unparalleled elsewhere in the Army, and guys who spend years there get seriously experienced and seasoned. These days, with the long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, SF will benefit, getting an even better selection of seasoned professionals from the rest of the Army, but the Ranger Regiment will still provide some great candidates, considering the types of missions that they do, and the sorts of mission packages that they participate in.

I do not think that the rivalry will ever completely go away.

It is cultural, and after all, we cannot expect mere men to be mature, reasoned, sensible, and to always see the larger picture.

Can we?

[Kuri]

Magician, outstanding post. My intent was to find out if anyone else out there has gone through what I'm currently experiencing (my leadership's attitude towards me has changed since I informed them that I will be headed to Selection).
I've decided to use it as one more reason not to fail. This thread wasn't meant to try to G2 anything or get a leg up on what's going to happen at SFAS, I just wanted some guidance on how to deal with the time in between now and when I report to Fort Bragg. I almost feel obligated to thank everyone personally who contributed to this thread because the quality of your posts have helped me tremendously. Guys, thanks again.

[magician]

brother, I am sorry that you are being subjected to such parochial, short-sighted pressures. We are all in the Army. Perhaps you ought to remind your chain-of-command of that fact. To perceive what you are daring to do as disloyal is bullshit.

fuck it. Rise above it. Take refuge in professionalism, and focus on silence, and grimness, and extreme competence. You are in a hard profession. It requires hard men. Take solace in the fact that you will soon be surrounded by others like you.

that said, you transit the pipeline as an individual. Yes, you attend the various components of the course as a member of a group, and you are tested on your ability to work with others, and integrate yourself with others and function effectively as a member of a unit. But your evaluations are individual, your test scores are your own, and your graduation will be an individual triumph, though you will never survive the course as a solo agent, without the help of others, or without helping others.

it is a schizoid thing, in a way, but never lose sight of the fact that you alone are responsible for what happens to you, and for how you adapt and overcome the various challenges ahead of you. You will have to lead, and you will have to follow. You will be observed, every step of the way, and you will be stunned at the things that your instructors and evaluators document about you as you go.

consider what is happening now as part of the deal.

you are getting ready to step through a gateway, and there will be many of them, and each one will be different, with different challenges on the other side. Many soldiers that you start this journey with will not finish it with you, or finish it at all. You will learn much about yourself, and I tell you now that regardless of whether you survive the pipeline or not, if you walk through each gateway with an open heart, you can learn incredible lessons, and come out of this process enriched beyond belief.

I wish you much luck.

In some ways, I wish that I were a young man, yet again, and could do it all over again.

[The Reaper]

Invictus

William Ernest Henley (1849-1903)

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Awesome poem.