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Old 12-24-2012, 12:18   #16
swatsurgeon
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Recall this happened in VA about 5-6 years ago.....Attorney General got involved and removed the possibility of it happening again, only law enforcement needs to know who has a permit or a weapon. The writer who published the list had a list of threats made to him from people that had restraining orders out and were armed for personal protection and felt it was an invasion of privacy and violated parts of the court order intending to keep them "safe' from their predator. I think IIRC, someone actually sued the writer....don't quote me on that one.
The element of surprise help when armed since hopefully the bad guy doesn't know you have a weapon until they are starring at the working end of it....smile for the flash

ss

State police close list of gun permits
The attorney general said the list contained sensitive information.
By Laurence Hammack
981-3239

Related
Document
Read the complete opinion from Attorney General Bob McDonnell
An editorial writer's botched attempt to highlight an open record -- the list of Virginians licensed to carry a concealed handgun -- resulted Friday in the record being closed.

Acting on the advice of Attorney General Bob McDonnell, the Virginia State Police said they will no longer release the information under the state's open records law.

The issue of hidden handguns, who gets to carry them and whether their names and addresses should be publicized hit a flash point last month when Roanoke Times editorial writer Christian Trejbal used his column to encourage readers to check up on who in their community was "packing heat."

The column carried a link to a database, obtained by the newspaper under the Freedom of Information Act and published on its Web site, that included the identities of more than 135,000 state residents licensed to carry concealed handguns.

Gun owners and their supporters were outraged, and the newspaper quickly pulled the database after receiving hundreds of complaints.

But the controversy continued. With some lawmakers pledging to introduce bills next year to make the list of concealed handgun permit holders private, Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, decided to ask for guidance from the attorney general.

In a three-page opinion released Friday, McDonnell wrote that state police have "discretionary authority" to release the list -- but that doesn't necessarily mean they should.

McDonnell raised two concerns about making the information public: First, the list includes the names of crime victims and witnesses that should be withheld from public view for safety reasons.

A second and broader reading of the law by McDonnell is that the entire list should be off-limits to the public because the data is compiled only for use by police in their investigations.

State police have "the responsibility to refrain from releasing sensitive personal information when the interests of public safety demand discretion," McDonnell wrote.

"Further, it is my opinion that the express language [of Virginia state law] limits the use of concealed carry permit information to law enforcement personnel for investigative purposes."

Because McDonnell acknowledged that police have "discretionary authority," some observers -- including Nutter -- had speculated the opinion would give them enough wiggle room to continue releasing a redacted list.

But state police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said Friday that acting on the attorney general's advice, the agency will no longer release the information, which over the past two years was the subject of 17 FOIA requests by the news media, political organizations and gun-rights groups.

Because crime victims and witnesses are not identified as such in the list of concealed handgun permit holders, there's no way for police to redact their names from the database, Geller said.

McDonnell's opinion settles the issue only for the short term; the General Assembly is expected to take up the issue next year following a study by the state's Freedom of Information Advisory Council.

"I think this opinion will serve as a foundation for future discussion," Nutter said.

Although he said it was too early to talk about specific legislation, Nutter said he could envision a solution in which citizens could still look up information on individual gun owners at their local courthouse, while the statewide list compiled by the state could be off-limits to everyone except law enforcement.

That could draw opposition from both open-record advocates such as newspapers and gun-rights groups, who also rely on the list to target potential members or citizens interested in gun-related legislation.

"There's going to be push-back from all different sides," Nutter said.

Meanwhile, First Amendment advocates voiced concerns Friday that removing information from the public domain simply because it might contain sensitive personal information could cause more confusion than clarity and affect more records than just the list of concealed handgun carriers.

"We've got to be very careful that the law is clear, and bureaucrats aren't left scratching their heads as to what is sensitive personal information and what isn't," said Frosty Landon, head of the Virginia Coalition for Open Government.

"The attorney general is supportive of open government and I'm sure he will work with everybody else to get this clarified by statute, so it doesn't have to be an issue for interpretation."

In an editorial published two weeks after the controversy began, The Roanoke Times admitted its editorial department made mistakes in deciding to publish the information. Those mistakes included not discussing in greater detail the possible effect on crime victims and not having a more compelling public purpose -- beyond illustrating how the Freedom of Information Act works -- for posting the database.

Asked about Friday's decision by the state police to restrict the information, newspaper President and Publisher Debbie Meade released a written statement.

"As a media company, it always concerns us when the availability of information is restricted," Meade said. "However, we recognize and respect the rights of the Virginia State Police to exercise discretion in handling their responsibilities."
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Last edited by swatsurgeon; 12-24-2012 at 12:20.
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Old 12-24-2012, 23:55   #17
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Tacky - but it is a matter of "public" record.

Richard
So are the names of rape and domestic abuse victims, and those who apply for restraining orders.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:32   #18
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Well, well, well .... two can play at this game.

Here is the home address and phone number of the writer of the article that posted all the CCW holders in eastern NY.
Also on the list are the president of the paper, the editors and several other "high ranking" folks associated with this rag.


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Here is the list. .....

addresses and phone number of NY Journal "columnist" Dwight R. Worley who published all of the HOME ADDRESSES of Law Abiding Conceal Carry Gun Owners of the entire state of NY as well as the rest of the marxist swine at The Journal:

Dwight R Worley
23006 139 Ave
Springfield Gardens, NY 11413

But you might want to call him first to let him know you’ll be dropping in: (718) 527-0832

and here are the rest of the red diaper doper babies at
The Journal:

Journal News President:
---Janet Hasson, 3 Gate House Lane Mamaroneck, NY 10534 (914) 694.5204

Editors:
---Cyndee Royle, 1133 Westchester Ave., Suite N110, White Plains, NY 10604, 914-694-9300
--Nancy Cutler 9 Woodwind Ln, Spring Valley, NY. (845) 354 3485

Parent company of The Journal News Gannett
-----CEO Gracia C Martore 728 Springvale Rd Great Falls, VA 22066 (703) 759 5954

The reporter on the story is:
--Dwight R Worley 23006 139 Ave Springfield Gardens, NY 11413 (718) 527 0832
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:00   #19
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NC recently had its own similar drama play out. The news outlet in question is in-your-face liberal and completely unapologetic about the article or their intentions WRT publishing the information. Backlash outside the democratic bastions was predictable and (in some entertaining cases) vitriolic.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-she...s-searchable-d
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Old 12-26-2012, 13:40   #20
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Take a closer look at the issue. The real reason these "liberal, left-wing socialists" are publishing the CCW owners names and addresses has absolutely nothing to do with "news". It does however have everything to do with the current socialist movement in this country.

Remember that saying that "in any successful revolution you must first kill all the lawyers"? I think we can expound on that..... When do we stop calling them "reporters" and call them what they really are, "activists".
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Old 12-26-2012, 18:18   #21
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Take a closer look at the issue. The real reason these "liberal, left-wing socialists" are publishing the CCW owners names and addresses has absolutely nothing to do with "news". It does however have everything to do with the current socialist movement in this country.

Remember that saying that "in any successful revolution you must first kill all the lawyers"? I think we can expound on that..... When do we stop calling them "reporters" and call them what they really are, "activists".
That's an easy one. "NOW" because that's what the majority of them are.
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Old 12-26-2012, 18:34   #22
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How about a list of people who are HIV positive?

Could that be printed?

TR
Gun ownership is both a choice and a right. Being HIV positive is neither.
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Old 12-26-2012, 18:56   #23
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Gun ownership is both a choice and a right. Being HIV positive is neither.
Then how about publishing the names of every woman who receives an abortion? That appears to meet your test.
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A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

~ Marcus Tullius Cicero (42B.C)
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Old 12-26-2012, 20:52   #24
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Question DAMN! Good question/reply...

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Then how about publishing the names of every woman who receives an abortion? That appears to meet your test.
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Old 12-26-2012, 22:00   #25
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I wasn't quite finished with the thought. Sorry.
Posting the names of the gun owners is not going to be helpful. For one thing as Team Sergeant points out it isn't news. It a little sensational; it demonizes innocent people; it adds to the us vs them. In my opinion that isn't going to help.

As I've said and it has been pointed out, I'm not a gun owner. But I have kids and I am a teacher. I'm also a big fan of the a Bill of Rights -- my favorite being the Fourth. But to have the Fourth I have to support the Second. So I do, but as there are certain restrictions placed on ... Well, all the other Amendments, I can't see why #2 is the exception. I hear (over and over and over) that the Second protects all the others but I don't buy that. Voting and the orderly transfer of power is what protects our way of life. And never has a weapon of any kind been required to ensure "the will of the people".

My posts have never advocated taking anyone's guns. Near universal gun ownership is what we do. Does it always make sense? Not always to me -- to me someone owning a civilian-ized gun that looks like, shoots nearly like, what Soldiers are carrying against the Taliban makes no sense. To me. In America where there is no enemy planning, trying to kill me. I know there will be some who disagree.

My initial point was what would gun owners be willing to change based on a dangerous weapon getting into the wrong hands and killing children? Or Firemen? I suggested, initially a requirement to store them more safely. Oh well. I got my answer from this forum. Generally, not willing to change anything if it effects anyone's freedom to have what they want, where they want when they want. Most astonishing, to me, is the solution offered is make guns more available and in an incredibly intrusive way, in schools. And then obviously, in churches (the Troy, IL shooting -- I see that church from my sons school)' in malls (OR). Everywhere, I guess.

There are 315 million citizens in America plus or minus. There are 300 Million guns +/- ? It's not one for one though. Gun owners are not the majority by a long way. The majority (gun owners are not the majority, work with me here) of Americans fall into two groups -- guns are bad. And, -- I don't care. I don't care for the "banning" group cuz I like warrants and I like my door.

I think the "don't care" groups is starting to care now. I think they are not going to accept dead children as a cost of the freedoms enumerated in the Bill of Rights. If for no other reason that no other amendment exacts that price. They are not going to accept comparisons to auto fatalities (we use cars and there are many things actively trying to reduce the death toll on the highway . . . Without going back to 55mph, which really did work) or fatalities caUsed by smoking (tobacco is practically taxed to death) or other comparisons because guns are for killing. Period. We want the killing to stop.

I offered an idea of a solution -- safer storage. I don't care. I haven't got a gun. But I don't want them to take your gun cuz I don't want someone else making me open my door without a warrant. There are certain cases where warrant less searches are allowed.
There are certain cases where one is not allowed to say everything they want
There are cases where religious practices are illegal.
There is no reason for the order of the Amendment. So why is #2 sacrosanct?

Down to 3% on the iPad.

Last edited by Dozer523; 12-26-2012 at 22:06.
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Old 12-26-2012, 22:45   #26
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Your proposed solution was in place in CT. http://www.safekids.org/in-your-area...nnecticut.html It didn't prevent the tragedy. If you want a pretty decent rundown on safe storage from a gun-control advocate's viewpoint, check out the following: http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/mcclurg3.htm. As I posted in the other thread - EVERYTHING you are asking for (taking you at your word that that does not include an outright ban) has already been enacted in one form or another. None of it was sufficient to prevent a madman from murdering his own mother (everybody forgets the first victim - of vilifies her) and then accessing the remainder of her firearms and commiting his heinous attrocity.

Given that you do not own firearms and express a disinterest in ever possessing any, I contend that you lack perspective to understand the attitudes of those of us who do - and who have endured decades of continual erosion of our rights in the search for a panacea (no other word fits as well) that will divert attention from the societal failings that are the root causes of these tragedies.
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A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

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Old 12-26-2012, 22:51   #27
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-- to me someone owning a civilian-ized gun that looks like, shoots nearly like, what Soldiers are carrying against the Taliban makes no sense.
.
I initially bought my bushmaster xm-15 (mil/police only version) in 2006. I was informed I would be deploying in 2007. I'm in the Air Force and we don't have a lot of training with any weapon if we are not security forces. So I bought what at the time I thought would be close to what I'd be using. Minus the red dot the function and shooting was the same. I spent the money so I would be more prepared and comfortable with my weapon. No CST training or anything special. I ended up using my weapon and am glad I spent the extra effort on my own. In 2009 and this year the Army taught me. But for my own sake again I'm glad that I practiced on my own prior to my deployments.
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Old 12-27-2012, 00:48   #28
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Given that you do not own firearms and express a disinterest in ever possessing any, I contend that you lack perspective to understand the attitudes of those of us who do - and who have endured decades of continual erosion of our rights in the search for a panacea (no other word fits as well) that will divert attention from the societal failings that are the root causes of these tragedies.
If one applies the reasoning of this POV to other controversial issues, should the POV of a woman who has had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy because she was raped carry extra weight in a discussion about abortion?

Similarly, many members of minorities groups can say they've "endured decades of continual erosion of their rights" in order to solve this problem or that one. Do their voices carry extra weight when they talk about other national tragedies?
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:32   #29
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Well, some Gun Activists in that area could screen the list and see who from the local "newspaper/news" folks aren't on the list and put their names and addresses up on a billboard.
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Originally Posted by Sierra Lima View Post
I really liked QP Pete's thought. Someone really should do that.
They did:

Lookie here


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Old 12-27-2012, 16:11   #30
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Originally Posted by Peregrino View Post
Given that you do not own firearms and express a disinterest in ever possessing any, I contend that you lack perspective to understand the attitudes of those of us who do .

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Originally Posted by Sigaba View Post
If one applies the reasoning of this POV to other controversial issues, should the POV of a woman who has had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy because she was raped carry extra weight in a discussion about abortion?
Having never had a uterus, we have been told, and generally accepted that the life/death decisions are left to those who do. We have gone as far as legally accepting that the contents are only a fetus, should the owner choose to treat it as such, and that they constitute a child should societal support be requested. Not so big a stretch.
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