Military class suspended for view on Islam

[SRT31B]

Sigaba: I am not a scholar or a historian and, though I do enjoy listening to Glenn Beck, was not referencing him in part or whole. At least at the basic level of the definition of the words, totalitarianism and authoritarianism are roughly the same. Perhaps incorrectly I was referencing the fact that, in perspective, Islam strives to govern every facet of a society and subjugate everyone to Islamic law, whether you are a Muslim or not. Essentially, in those areas where Islam is most strictly adhered to, governments are theocratic and the supreme law of the land is Sharia. There is no room for dissent, modernization, or secularism. For non Muslims to even be allowed to exist in this society they must make one of three choices: convert to Islam, be subjugated to dhimmi status, or die. I agree that this system is not "political" in the way we view politics and government, but it does have a politico-religious (if that's a word) element in that the supreme authority is vested in the senior religious leader of the culture. Recently, there was a news story on TV (I think it was 20/20, Dateline or something) covering the outcome of the trial for the Almaleki "honor killings" in Arizona which discussed police contact with the family at the home wherein Mr. Almaleki described to police that his family law (that is, Islamic/religious law) was more important and took precedence over US/Arizona law. Mr. Almaleki displayed a complete disregard for the rule of law in our country and his state in favor of adhering to Islamic teaching, even when such teaching violated our legislation. It is my opinion that this is the prevailing thought process of those who practice a "strict" interpretation of Islam, and the ultimate end state for those under its teaching; that is, Islam/sharia is supreme.

I would like to believe with regard to the issue of political correctness in our society that no, it is not sustainable. Contrary to what the media tells us, I believe the bleeding heart, do nothing, PC whiners are a minority that simply has the loudest voice right now. Eventually, I believe the majority of Americans will feel the pinch of political correctness so much that it will be unsustainable and we will see the pendulum swing in the opposite direction with a return to where we were 20 to 30 years ago (referencing individual treatment/liberty/expression, etc.). My point comparing the "totalitarian" concepts of Islam and political correctness was to identify the similarities in that, though I have First Amendment protections, everything I say is subject to PC police if I offend someone. The opinions I express may hurt someone's feelings and I may take a heat round for it. Johnny doesn't get A's and B's anymore because we don't want to make the other students that get C's and D's to feel bad, so we'll just give everyone "S's" cause we're all "successful" here. My kids don't take "participation" trophies, and 2nd place is the first loser (and no, I don't mean that in a demeaning way but rather that we strive for excellence in all we do). In America, more and more we have become slaves to the PC police which, though we have the freedom to do as we wish, dictate more and more what we can't do. This is by no means the strongest connection between the two concepts, but I think this illuminates the original point better. I attribute the continued avenues of dissent to the American people and our way of life/upbringing. We have been taught from birth that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. This is contrary to teachings of Islam and shows the cultural divide of our two societies.

While military policy is an extension of the political machine, war is not waged by politicians but generals, and to inject or allow political decision making at the tactical level is to act contrary to the very nature of warfare. I like Von Clausewits' example of two wrestlers trying to pin each other on the mat (not a sexual reference!), in that this describes the maximum use of force to compel the opponent to submit to the will of the other. The combatant that goes to extremes the fastest without fear of repercussion in order to exert their will on the other is the one that will win by submission, or, in an extreme case, by destruction of the opposing side. The tactics used in this struggle cannot be constrained by political pressure in the sense that our political aim sets the end state, and our military strategy determines how we arrive there. Politicians don't (or at least shouldn't) run our military conflicts.

As a Bible believing Christian, it is my opinion that at some unknown point in the future we will see an eventual armed conflict that pits Islam against not only the west, but any non Muslim culture. I'm not a biblical scholar or theologian, nor do have an extensive background in world history, but it remains my personal belief that when speaking of the battle of Armageddon, at least today, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to see that fight being between Islamists and other religions/theologies. I believe this is true based not on my opinions, but rather on the stated goal of Muslim practitioners around the world, and in particular the middle east. One need only examine the mission statement of the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoot organizations to see the signs. In short, I think if/when it gets to that point we won't see a strengthening or weakening of the Westphalian system because that will correspond with the biblical end times. I would suppose that someone who does not share or agree with my personal religious beliefs would also disagree on the larger points as well.

The one point I would bring up from Beck, as I believe it holds true: It really doesn't matter what I believe in the scheme of things, it only matters what they believe. I take them at their word.

Thanks for the exchange. It is nice to engage in polite discourse of these points.

[Dozer523]

The Stategic Corporal got a promotion.
E-4 and O-5 are like teen years in their respective career tracks.
They got it "ALL figured out" . . . Dangerous times . .

[abc_123]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

The Stategic Corporal got a promotion.
E-4 and O-5 are like teen years in their respective career tracks.
They got it "ALL figured out" . . . Dangerous times . . .

I am not following you here. Are you saying that an officer must have 2 or 3 stars, and an NCO be a CSM before being able to think strategically and come out with ideas worthy of debate/discussion... (by others of the same rank, of course)?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

The Stategic Corporal got a promotion.
E-4 and O-5 are like teen years in their respective career tracks.
They got it "ALL figured out" . . . Dangerous times . . .

So you are equating a soldier with less than three years of service to one with 18 or more?

TR

[T-Rock]

The Islamic extremists commit so much of the violence, that they give the whole religion a bad name which can make people skeptical about the idea of a large number of peaceful Muslims out there, but what if those really exist?

How can the extremists be giving the religion of Islam a bad name if they are simply adhering to the tenets of their faith?


Edited to add...

By suggesting a strategy that would result in a global war against 1.6 billion people in approximately 200 countries...

Just because Lt. Col. Dooley is accurately teaching what Islam entails, and what we are up against, doesn't necessarily mean an all out war with 1.6 billion people, not even close.... Fear of the implications of a fact is not a legitimate reason to avoid talking about a fact...

Whenever these type discussions come up, Lt. Col. West comes to mind...., IMO he is spot-on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGQmCZjJ0k

[PRB]

Originally Posted by T-Rock

How can the extremists be giving the religion of Islam a bad name if they are simply adhering to the tenets of their faith?

What ties all of the extremists together...Chechins, Muslims born and raised in the US, American converts, priviledged ME young men, Somali imigrants and their offspring......how do they all come to the same conclusion with very little outside persuasion....
They study the Quran and read the life of Muhammed. It is in black/white in direct verse and examples written by 'the Companions'...It is validated by Al Azar University in Cairo..the Gold Standard of Islamic Jurispridence.
We (the West) are trampling upon sacred ground and defiling the tenets of Islam by our very existance....we are an affront to the word of Muhammed and the primary obstacle to Islamic dominance in the world thru our culture and all that it entails.
Thru the power that our culture exerts in monetary and military venues....those are the venues that Muhammed sought to dominate to spread Islam...it was not only the power of thought but the power of every day life, money, politics and control of wealth and how it is distributed.
We are the enemy, whatever Western power is at the pinicle is the enemy.
It happens to be us presently.
Tag, we are it.
That is what this Col. who understands the underlying momentum of Islamic thought, was attempting to impart.
Way to controversial for our PC soft society, way to 7th century to believe because mankind is so enlightened today....unless you watch Mr.Pearl slowly get beheaded while they scream god is great. That of course was an abberation...unless you read the life of Muhammed....
It does not matter if the majority of Muslims are actually peaceful.
The majority of peaceful Muslims will stand silently while you have your neck severed and go about their own peaceful business and sit and pray next to the one that slaughtered you.
And they will call him a warrior of Islam, and a Shaheed if he is killed.
Do our Afghan allies take down the green flags where Shaheeds were killed in Astan........no, because, even in their own minds, their enemy died fighting the kafir...us, the kafir...that is why they hesitate, that is why they are not 'all in' because they are allied with the Kafir against a Muslim foe.
Figure it out please.

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

So you are equating a soldier with less than three years of service to one with 18 or more?

TR

I think, perhaps, only when the 'O' with said years of service exhibits the SA of the 'EM'' with less than three.

[T-Rock]

What ties all of the extremists together...Chechins, Muslims born and raised in the US, American converts, priviledged ME young men, Somali imigrants and their offspring......how do they all come to the same conclusion with very little outside persuasion....
They study the Quran and read the life of Muhammed. It is in black/white in direct verse and examples written by 'the Companions'...It is validated by Al Azar University in Cairo..the Gold Standard of Islamic Jurispridence.
We (the West) are trampling upon sacred ground and defiling the tenets of Islam by our very existance....we are an affront to the word of Muhammed and the primary obstacle to Islamic dominance in the world thru our culture and all that it entails.
Thru the power that our culture exerts in monetary and military venues....those are the venues that Muhammed sought to dominate to spread Islam...it was not only the power of thought but the power of every day life, money, politics and control of wealth and how it is distributed.
We are the enemy, whatever Western power is at the pinicle is the enemy.
It happens to be us presently.
Tag, we are it.
That is what this Col. who understands the underlying momentum of Islamic thought, was attempting to impart.
Way to controversial for our PC soft society, way to 7th century to believe because mankind is so enlightened today....unless you watch Mr.Pearl slowly get beheaded while they scream god is great. That of course was an abberation...unless you read the life of Muhammed....
It does not matter if the majority of Muslims are actually peaceful.
The majority of peaceful Muslims will stand silently while you have your neck severed and go about their own peaceful business and sit and pray next to the one that slaughtered you.
And they will call him a warrior of Islam, and a Shaheed if he is killed.
Do our Afghan allies take down the green flags where Shaheeds were killed in Astan........no, because, even in their own minds, their enemy died fighting the kafir...us, the kafir...that is why they hesitate, that is why they are not 'all in' because they are allied with the Kafir against a Muslim foe.
Figure it out please.

Concur 100% Sir ...Wholeheartedly! The point I was trying to make is that the tenets of Islam show that the extremists/Islamists are right…, and that they are simply following the fundamentals of Islam, the tenets of their faith.., taken from the Qur’an and Hadith, as well as the example of their prophet (Sira)…

I have a hard time understanding how some folks try and jump through mental hoops as if somehow the extremists are simply warping Islam and giving the religion of Islam a bad name…, when it is in fact, the fascist ideology of Islam., that is responsible for over 120 million Africans…, 60 million Christians…, 80 million Hindus…, 10 million Buddhists, and 270 million Jews.., slaughtered by jihad in the name of the so called peaceful religion.
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/...ears-of-jihad/

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

The Stategic Corporal got a promotion.
E-4 and O-5 are like teen years in their respective career tracks.
They got it "ALL figured out" . . . Dangerous times . .

Originally Posted by abc_123

I am not following you here. Are you saying that an officer must have 2 or 3 stars, and an NCO be a CSM before being able to think strategically and come out with ideas worthy of debate/discussion... (by others of the same rank, of course)?

What I'm saying is LTC Dooley's ideas are not worthy of presentation at a military school-house. Personally, I don't they they merit debate, either. Furthermore I'm saying he grossly abused both his rank and his post as an instructor at a military institute by using it as a forum for his personal opinions. Opinions that do not seem to shared by the Military. And have been deemed worthy of review by a Major General.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

So you are equating a soldier with less than three years of service to one with 18 or more?TR

Of course not. I am equating this particular LTC (with 18 years or more service) to a three year time in service / one year time in grade / first duty station / NBNW-NDN / got-it-all-figured-out-Sarge / the Board F-ed me / punk Specialist.
Luckily, there are few E-4s and O-5s that fit that description but, they sure can do some damage.
The only difference PSGs and 1SG clean up a SPCs mess. A MG gets to tidy up after LTC Dooley.

Let's wait to see how that turns out.

[JimP]

Before one can debate tactics...one must identify the enemy. If you are unwilling to ID the enemy (as we in today's society refuse to do) then you may as well go turn on American Idol or follow Snookie on Twitter.

If we stifle debate in our professional education, we are doomed. We will be relegated to automatons spouting forth nothing but government-approved drivel. Sorry....not on my watch.

Dempsey has proven himself nothing more than a lap-dog for the politically expedient. I mean - hey, this approach has worked just freakin' great for the last 11 years hasn't it?

[PRB]

The Col's extrapolation about specific future events is his own interpretation. Who knows.
His definition of the Islamic threat is correct as I see it.

I am deeply offended by the LTC and his statements, I think that the PC card can only be pulled so many times before it becomes a simple cover for making offensive and otherwise demeaning statements towards a group of people.

Allow me to explain why I am so offended. I have three cousins who have all served in the US Military. One is a Desert Storm veteran from the Army, the other is a US Marine who has spent 12 years in the military, a significant portion of it fighting in the current Gulf War and an Airman who has served during the current war as well.

The US Army veteran was injured after falling about 10 feet onto his back while in full combat load during what I presume were combat operations. The US Marine Veteran has almost been paralyzed when an IED was planted on his route and went off behind him.

What ties these 3 vets together with this article? They were all religious Muslims who answered the call to serve.

The LTC's comments demeans their sacrifice to our nation by calling them the enemy. They weren't SF or SOF but they still fought the same war that many people here on these boards fought and put their lives on the line because they thought it was what a good American or Muslim should do.

They weren't an exception to the rule either, I'm sure that there are many other Muslims who have served in every part of the military and some have given their lives as a result. To call them the enemy shows deep disregard for their sacrifices.

In response to LTC West, he mispronounced hadith so, while he may have read them, I am highly doubtful.

In response to those that say that Islam requires all Muslims to kill the non-believers:

"…To you your religion, to me my religion…" - Sura 109:6

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Prototype

I am deeply offended by the LTC and his statements, I think that the PC card can only be pulled so many times before it becomes a simple cover for making offensive and otherwise demeaning statements towards a group of people.

Allow me to explain why I am so offended. I have three cousins who have all served in the US Military. One is a Desert Storm veteran from the Army, the other is a US Marine who has spent 12 years in the military, a significant portion of it fighting in the current Gulf War and an Airman who has served during the current war as well.

The US Army veteran was injured after falling about 10 feet onto his back while in full combat load during what I presume were combat operations. The US Marine Veteran has almost been paralyzed when an IED was planted on his route and went off behind him.

What ties these 3 vets together with this article? They were all religious Muslims who answered the call to serve.

The LTC's comments demeans their sacrifice to our nation by calling them the enemy. They weren't SF or SOF but they still fought the same war that many people here on these boards fought and put their lives on the line because they thought it was what a good American or Muslim should do.

They weren't an exception to the rule either, I'm sure that there are many other Muslims who have served in every part of the military and some have given their lives as a result. To call them the enemy shows deep disregard for their sacrifices.

In response to LTC West, he mispronounced hadith so, while he may have read them, I am highly doubtful.

In response to those that say that Islam requires all Muslims to kill the non-believers:

"…To you your religion, to me my religion…" - Sura 109:6

Naturally born Muslims or converts........No one says Islam requires all Muslims to kill non believers.
It commands you to spread the faith and subjigate non believers...if they will not submit then they must pay the tax and be second class citizens in Dhimmi status.
In Islam there are two places......the 'place of believers' and 'and the place of war' where non believers thrive.
A quick question for you...."Is Muhammed, as an individual, relevant in today's world"...Is he 'The perfect example of Manhood'.
What is the only guaranteed way to Islamic heaven?
What school of thought do you follow?
What are the commonly (by Islamic jurisprudence) abrogated verses?
I'd love to have this discussion with you and go over many of the various episodes in the life of Muhammed as written by his companions.....Gold Standard only.

Originally Posted by PRB

Naturally born Muslims or converts........No one says Islam requires all Muslims to kill non believers.
It commands you to spread the faith and subjigate non believers...if they will not submit then they must pay the tax and be second class citizens in Dhimmi status.
In Islam there are two places......the 'place of believers' and 'and the place of war' where non believers thrive.
A quick question for you...."Is Muhammed, as an individual, relevant in today's world"...Is he 'The perfect example of Manhood'.
What is the only guaranteed way to Islamic heaven?
What school of thought do you follow?
What are the commonly (by Islamic jurisprudence) abrogated verses?
I'd love to have this discussion with you and go over many of the various episodes in the life of Muhammed as written by his companions.....Gold Standard only.

Islam is a missionary religion that tells its followers to spread their faith not to dissimilar from Christian missionaries.

Now here’s thing, a believer is not necessarily a Muslim. “The People of the Book” as they are called in the Quran (followers of other Abrahamic religions) are believers. Non believers are anyone else that is not a Muslim.

“The People of the Book” are spoken of quite well in most of the Quran, non-believers not so much, but both are to be treated with kindness and tolerance.

“…ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them…” Sura 60:8

Dhimmis in the past were taxed and it was certainly a form of oppression, I will not disagree with that as most Muslim rulers used it to simply have Non-Muslims acknowledge their government.

It is important to note that they were to be protected as part of the Dhimmi contract and failure to do so was a sin.

They were allowed to practice their own religion and laws (Halakha), even if it offended Muslims and were given the same rights as Muslim citizens.

In modern times, countries vary quite widely on this but I do not know of a country that actively taxes Non-Muslims anymore. Dimmis are generally able to get along fine although they may be persecuted by Muslim citizens despite the fact that they are not allowed to in Islam, as Dimmis have to be treated with the same kindness and respect shown to Muslims. It’s an unfortunate situation for them and I certainly sympathize.

Naturally born Muslims or converts

They are natural-born Muslims.

A quick question for you...."Is Muhammed, as an individual, relevant in today's world"...Is he 'The perfect example of Manhood'.

I think Muhammad is relevant for Muslims in the sense that he is viewed as being an the perfect example of a Muslim and so we are supposed to imitate him.

There are some things he did that I would not but I wouldn't do things that Abraham did either (almost killing his son).

It's similar to how Christians will view Jesus, they try to do good things just as he is told to have done.

In terms of society, no he is not relevant in politics and other aspects not actually relating to Islam.

What is the only guaranteed way to Islamic heaven?

The only guaranteed way is to become a martyr. The catch here is that suicide is not allowed.
If you become a martyr while fighting a war, the war should be justifiable and you must have followed the rules of war outlines in the Quran
The rules are what you would expect: Civilians are not targets, surrendering combatants cannot be executed, etc.

As far as anyone else, it’s a sin to say that a person will go to heaven or won’t.

Terrorists do not count because they obviously don't do anything right.

What school of thought do you follow?
I’m a Sunni Muslim.

What are the commonly (by Islamic jurisprudence) abrogated verses?

No verses in the Quran are removed or altered.

The hadith are different, people have invented their own hadith and so Muslim scholars have tried to find and remove the ones that are false.
It’s claimed that most of the fake ones have been removed but care should be taken by someone studying Islam as there are still quite a few that have yet to be found.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Prototype

What are the commonly (by Islamic jurisprudence) abrogated verses?

No verses in the Quran are removed or altered.

The answer was not to the question. Even we know that abrogation does not deal with removing or altering verses.

How are the Coptic's doing these days in Egypt?