Pissing on video

[fng13]

I'm surprised we don't see more of this type of stuff, with the reality that everyone has access to camera's, the internet etc.

Certainly I am not saying that I would expect our troops to do things like this. Rather with combining easy access to technology with the high emotions I am sure come out of a combat zone, I think it is probably a testament of the professionalism of our soldiers that we don't see more of this.

[NoRoadtrippin]

The SandGram article is definitely very well written and makes some excellent points. The final quote from the War College grad is the pivotal issue. As a PL, XO acting as Commander for a year, and now as a humble S1, I have spent days and nights trying to figure out how to effectively communicate to my Soldiers that this war cannot be won with the mentality that we are going to Afghanistan to kill people and, for our BDE, with the same "Iraq" mentality that they have been in on their last two tours.

Somewhere, leadership failed these Marines. Now before I get into this, I will say that as an officer, I have no misgivings about the fact that LTs, CPTs and beyond are capable of making stupid, impulsive decisions. . . That being said, young Soldiers will always be that much more likely to do the same and often to a greater degree. It's just simple math. They are younger, less time to grow up (emotionally and mentally. . .even if war has unnaturally sped the process in many after 10 years), and excluding the higher ranks of NCOs, will most often be less educated.

I am sure more details concerning these Marines will come out and we will learn their ranks and just how much experience and frustration has built up in these men. But it is the officer that failed here in my mind. The first line leader failed on the ground. Maybe PL or CO weren't even around. The officer failed weeks or months before these guys ever left the wire. If PL and CO had effectively trained and prepared these Marines then they would have understood what this does to our progress. They would understand story after story that has broken like this and how it keeps getting their buddies killed. The sheep in this country want to know why we've been in Afghanistan for 10 years and what do we have to show for it all? I say plenty, but its crap like this that makes it all much less worthwhile because we can't get ahead of the curve.

And the guy who filmed it...well if it was a fellow Marine then that guy is simply an idiot.

[Tweeder11]

This is the topic today around the water cooler, and what I find upsetting is hearing people, who have never been there and never been through the stress of combat, are berating these Marines and likening their actions to the overall US presense over seas.

IMH(Inexperienced)O the majority of us know right and wrong and where this stands, but leave the condemning of their actions to their fellow servicemen (past and present), their supperiors, and the protectors of the UCMJ.

I'm sorry if I'm out of my lane & I appreciate the oppurtunity to post on this.

Tweeder

[stfesta]

Was this done in poor taste...yes.
Will it be used as a propaganda tool by EVERYONE...yes.

The 1st mistake was having a camera there. How many of us did something while in group that we didn't want anyone to see? I am going to bet almost everyone. The reason you never see any pics or video of me while in 7th Group is I followed rule #1. No cameras. My memory will serve me fine.

Now, I did not write this next part, it was passed along to me by a friend but, it really started me thinking.

So if you pee on a crucifix, you are an artist. Pee on the flag you are a constitutionalist..but pee on a the Taliban?

A very simple statement with a lot of power.

Before anyone goes off on the tangent of how this will affect the military image...I got it, it was done in poor taste. Do I as a human being condone this behavior? Absolutely not.

That being said, read that statement again, strip it down to it's premise.

Did these men really do anything different than what was listed above? Did they do anything equal to or worse than what has been done to our Soldiers?

As far as the video being used for a recruitment tool, there is really no argument there. It doesn't matter what we do, it will all be used as recruitment tools. Right now the recruitment tool is that we are week. At least with this video the enemy will know that his soul will not be pure. It's not as if the Taliban were about to throw in the towel and go home until this video came out.

Those who scream the loudest for tolerance are the more often than not the most intolerant.

Those are my $0.02
sf

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by fng13

..... I think it is probably a testament of the professionalism of our soldiers that we don't see more of this.

I agree. Alas, the harm that is done to the reputation of those good troops by this small group of individuals is way out of proportion. But that's the way these things go.

[Snaquebite]

Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.html

[tf999]

Originally Posted by Snaquebite

Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West



http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.html

Great letter. +1

[greenberetTFS]

"Shut your mouth,War is hell".........

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.http

Enough said!!!.........

Big Teddy

[Gypsy]

Has anybody heard the media blaming Obama for this? You know, like they blamed Bush for Abu Ghraib?

Oh. Never mind.

Of course I am not saying what they did is right but stfesta brings up a lot of good points.

What I am saying is this is why you should never bring a video cam to a pissing match.

[hoot72]

This video isn't going to do anyone any good...more so US forces globally from a military and diplomatic point of view.

Common sense went out the window on this one.....

[twistedsquid]

this is a bye product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

[Sdiver]

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

this is a by product of the volunteer army....

Yeah, let's just go back to the draft.

Originally Posted by stfesta

The 1st mistake was having a camera there.
sf

Couldn't agree more. Same for Abu Ghraib, which should have been a secure environment.

Originally Posted by twistedsquid

this is a by product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

I disagree, twistedsquid. We have the best military in the world, and it's professional, and volunteer at the same time.

Instead this is the product of mob mentality, albeit a mob of 4 (5 if you count the camera man).

Somebody thought up this idea, which seemed like a good idea at the time; or a way to take out some frustrations in the midst of combat. Instead of thinking, the others followed suit. Instead of questioning, all joined in (well, as far as we know based on what has been presented).

Easy to turn away from this and not be a part of it, more difficult to question or stand against it when you have to work, live and fight with these guys on a daily basis. No black sheep so to speak, no one to take a stand against what they all did because that path has its own consequences in a military unit.

[Sohei]

In its simplest form it was a total lack of leadership compounded by the fact that there was not one person in the group that had the "backbone" to stop it because it was right to do so. What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Someone should have stepped up to the plate, drew a line and stopped it in the planning stages. No leaders present there, just followers.