Women and Combat

[wmaousley]

I had the honor of serving with Leigh-Ann Hester in the KYARNG and also in Iraq in 2005. First female to be awarded the silver star for valor in combat and the first to receive the award since WWII.

Granted not all women have a place in a combat MOS, however there are a few who can make the cut.

[bailaviborita]

Originally Posted by afchic

My main point is there is repurcussions for only one of the consenting adults, and that is wrong.

Maybe- if your priority is equal rights/treatment. If, however, your priority is mission over rights, then you might feel differently. If you are pregnant you effect mission. If you get someone pregnant, you don't effect mission. Is it fair? No- but, military service isn't fair to lots of people. If mission is the priority, then fairness takes a back seat. If BOTH people should get punished in your mind, then that just compounds the effect on mission... What's your priority?

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by afchic

My main point is there is repurcussions for only one of the consenting adults, and that is wrong.

I think that's an over generalization. The repurcussions are felt by the entire unit. Nobody's "secret" romance stays that way...and someone always ends up covering for someone else, both male and female. While I can appreciate your point of view based on your past experience...why did he get off "scott-free?" Who's decision was it to keep it a secret...and why?

[PRB]

Originally Posted by wmaousley

I had the honor of serving with Leigh-Ann Hester in the KYARNG and also in Iraq in 2005. First female to be awarded the silver star for valor in combat and the first to receive the award since WWII.

Granted not all women have a place in a combat MOS, however there are a few who can make the cut.

Women can be brave. Certainly. She rose to the occasion in a firefight that she 'drove' too.
I'm talking about humping those mountains day in, day out and then fighting. Like ya'll do in Astan. I doubt she'd have been an asset in that situation.

[wmaousley]

Originally Posted by PRB

Women can be brave. Certainly. She rose to the occasion in a firefight that she 'drove' too.
I'm talking about humping those mountains day in, day out and then fighting. Like ya'll do in Astan. I doubt she'd have been an asset in that situation.

I can agree with that 110%

[Sigaba]

Is it prudent to center opposition to women serving in combat around issues of physical performance and physiological differences?

What happens if the American political leadership decides to pay engineers across a range of disciplines to redesign almost everything (e.g. reduce the weight of a soldier's kit by 40%) so that the current measurements of strength and stamina become ever less relevant?

What happens if America decides to do more to automate the battlefield altogether by using more and more drones and robots that service persons pilot remotely?

If such solutions come into play and they do not impact adversely the American armed forces' military effectiveness, what might be the political consequences for those who opposed women in combat?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Is it prudent to center opposition to women serving in combat around issues of physical performance and physiological differences?

What happens if the American political leadership decides to pay engineers across a range of disciplines to redesign almost everything (e.g. reduce the weight of a soldier's kit by 40%) so that the current measurements of strength and stamina become ever less relevant?

What happens if America decides to do more to automate the battlefield altogether by using more and more drones and robots that service persons pilot remotely?

If such solutions come into play and they do not impact adversely the American armed forces' military effectiveness, what might be the political consequences for those who opposed women in combat?

You bring up good points but...........

The question then becomes "What is Combat?"

As had been noted women appear to have no problems in Combat roles such as fighter pilots, MPs, etc, etc, etc.

But Grunt work requires heavy lifting. Body Armor, weapons, ammunition, water and the other sundry kit a soldier wears weighs a lot. Dragging a wounded buddy across the street and behind cover takes strength.

The military has been working to reduce the combat load but it seems the more they work the heavier the load becomes.

So do you reduce standards to include women in the Grunt areas - or do you make a strength based PT test - kinda' like the new PT Test - for the Grunt MOSs.

But then what do you do with guys who don't want to be Grunts and fail the PT Test?

Thorny questions - lets just hope the Military does not go for the PC solution.

[alright4u]

Originally Posted by PRB

Women can be brave. Certainly. She rose to the occasion in a firefight that she 'drove' too.
I'm talking about humping those mountains day in, day out and then fighting. Like ya'll do in Astan. I doubt she'd have been an asset in that situation.

This military seems to have been doing mounted patrols since Kosovo. Why are there no chopper insertions to include night when we once owned the night, and why are folks riding down the road where some kid can connect a hot wire and blow you up? Am I wrong?

Why do you have female O-5's hanging out in the FT. Campbell commissary during duty hours?

Hell, I saw the same types shopping at Redstone Arsenal in 1991 waering MSM's. What is this?

This PC, MC, DADT crap that is now wide open gays is going to be far worse then any problem a pregnant woman could be. Once this HIV crap starts it will be the costliest disability this military and this VA ever had. How do you take a gay man and then explain that his HIV is not SC? I think we are in for far worse problems then any pregnant woman. We have men now claiming erectile dysfunction due to AO.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Is it prudent to center opposition to women serving in combat around issues of physical performance and physiological differences?

What happens if the American political leadership decides to pay engineers across a range of disciplines to redesign almost everything (e.g. reduce the weight of a soldier's kit by 40%) so that the current measurements of strength and stamina become ever less relevant?

What happens if America decides to do more to automate the battlefield altogether by using more and more drones and robots that service persons pilot remotely?

If such solutions come into play and they do not impact adversely the American armed forces' military effectiveness, what might be the political consequences for those who opposed women in combat?

Have you read "The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation", by S. L. A. Marshall?

If you reduce the weight of the basic load by 40%, then inevitably, you will be required to carry 40% more weight. More ammo, if nothing else.

Hence the timeless question, "How much does 100 pounds of lightweight gear really weigh?"

I have stood on the ramp of an airplane with 135 pounds in my ruck, a 55 pound freefall parachute system, and another 30 pounds or so in my weapon, vest, helmet, etc. It hurt just to walk around in it, BEFORE we got on the ground in the hilly jungle. I don't know any woman who could do that, and I was just an average SF guy.

I know some good soldiers who happen to be female. I don't know any who could hack it on an SFODA, in a rifle squad, on a 155mm gun crew, or breaking track on a tank.

You may want to review this thread: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ad.php?t=32397

1/3 of the CST volunteers reporting for evaluation could not pass the Army Physical Fitness Test with the female standards. 30% of them failed to report IAW the Army weight standards. How could they be soldiers and leaders in their units and be that badly out of shape? Someone was letting them slide, and they lacked the personal motivation to fix it themselves.

When you get a robot that can hump the Hindu Kush as well as an infantryman, with all of the gear, without someone having to carry the batteries for it, we can have that discussion. Till then, it is all theoretical BS.

TR

[Guy]

Count the number of women vs men.....

Stay safe.

[Don]

Originally Posted by Guy

Count the number of women vs men.....

Stay safe.

Guy...breakin' it down...Barney style.

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by alright4u

This military seems to have been doing mounted patrols since Kosovo. Why are there no chopper insertions to include night when we once owned the night, and why are folks riding down the road where some kid can connect a hot wire and blow you up? Am I wrong?

Why do you have female O-5's hanging out in the FT. Campbell commissary during duty hours?

Hell, I saw the same types shopping at Redstone Arsenal in 1991 waering MSM's. What is this?

This PC, MC, DADT crap that is now wide open gays is going to be far worse then any problem a pregnant woman could be. Once this HIV crap starts it will be the costliest disability this military and this VA ever had. How do you take a gay man and then explain that his HIV is not SC? I think we are in for far worse problems then any pregnant woman. We have men now claiming erectile dysfunction due to AO.

Excellent point and very well made,I'm totally in your corner on his post,Jon.........

Big Teddy

[Pete]

Since most non-QPs here have seen the SFAS program on Discovery and the related programs on the other services.

"If" I say again "If" SFAS was opened up to women and 15 or so ended up at an SFAS class would it be more "fair" to split them up two-ish per team or make an all female team? Should sex even be a consideration for team assignment? Just let the chips fall where they may so to speak?

As a male what would be your ideal team makeup be? All male? Mostly male with a couple of females? All female with you as the only guy? You females? All guy with you as the only female? Balanced mix or all female?

If none passed how long would it be before the powers that be said the training was predisposed to fail women and it needed to be changed so that the required % of women could pass? If 10% of females were required to pass what would be the pass rate for men - or are we talking about making different standards based on sex?

Are there male/female standards for Combat?

[Ghost_Team]

I had this discussion with my fiance. She's a former state champ gymnast and triathlete who still competes and is probably in better cardio shape than me. We were deployed at the time, so I dressed her up in my body armor complete with weapons, radio pack, ammo, and all the other goodies. Then I told her to go for a run and plan on wearing it for a minimum of six hours. After she told me that I had lost my mind, I considered this dispute resolved in my eyes.

[Box]

As soon as we go to one single APFT standard for all sexes, shapes and ages, I'll entertain an opinion. 'Gender norming' DOES NOT have a place in combat.

example: selection programs use a PT score based on a single age group (unless something has changed) it doesnt matter if you are 21 or 41 you have to meet the same time standard.
I wonder why? Maybe it is because selection based units understand that combat NEVER discriminates.

Example under current standards
Male 17-21 age group "max" PT score:
71 Push ups
78 sit ups (male/female standard)
13:00 two mile run

Female 17-21 age group "max" PT score:
42 push ups (a male soldier would only score a 60, and would have failed the SFQC PT test)
78 sit ups
15:36 two mile run (a male soldier would only score a 64, and would have failed the SFQC PT test)

Eliminate gender norming, then we can talk. Until then, a woman can max her PT test while a man of the EXACT same age fails to even score 70 points in each event on his with the EXACT same raw score. Such a woman 'maxing' her PT test does not stand out in my mind as a 'studette'. In fact... we are cheating her if we send her into combat under the false assumption that she is a studette. She is going drag everyone down when the 14:30 two-mile 'weak runners' have to slow down so she can keep up.

Until then, it is about politics; its not about women OR combat. Its about scummy politicians and special interest groups pandering to a subsection of society with an entitlement complex.

again, just my two cents... maybe I'm wrong