It's Just Wrong...

[Drusagas]

Song from my favorite band, speaks to this situation exactly.

S.M.C. by Project 86

"Big business ain’t easy
I’m sure you’d agree
Especially when the product is eternity-
To stay one step ahead we must achieve
And turn this holy temple
Into a factory
Is there anywhere you can run
To hide from these thieves? -
Cause eternity’s on sale today for a fee

Faith is buying me a way
Buying me a way
To convert the masses into little servants
Faith is buying me away
Buying me a way
Buying me into your home (soul)

Our sanctuary of this high-rise
Our steeples, our billboards
Our slogans, our converts
Oh don’t forget to buy this T-shirt
As you leave
And open up the offering box
And give until it hurts
Show me an open heart and we’ll steal it away
Cause eternity’s on up for sale for a small fee today
You Know

This altar is a stage
Our sponsor must be paid
And maybe even make the front page"

Edit* To explain further, this is a Christian band. I consider myself "religious," though the connotations of that word are ambiguous at times. This song is pointing out the corruption that happens in churches today and how it seems that those who give more are more likely to be saved; as if you're paying a "pre-mortgage" on a house in Heaven when that is something no man can buy (etymology of the word "simony"). Another example, in my opinion, of this is, recently, a mega-church in the Ft. Worth, TX area begin broadcasting their services to their overflow rooms in 3D. IMHO, I believe that is an improper use of tithes and offerings and also that a "tithe machine" has no place in a house of worship. But these are my opinions.

[Richard]

As far as the ATM shown in the first post goes - IMO it's nothing personal or anything to get worked up over, it's just business as usual.

And as far as the relief efforts in Joplin go, PR is a powerful recruiting tool and I suspect not everybody who was pitching in during such a trying time was as committed to overtly advertising who they are and what they may believe as some may have been doing.

http://www.komu.com/news/how-to-help...s-for-joplin1/

And so it goes...

Richard

[alelks]

Originally Posted by craigepo

Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor.
.

And here is as perfect example of why I don't belong to an organized religion.

According to this statement if I don't belong to an organized religion then I am not a "Believer". Unfortunately too many religious institutions believe this for some reason. Sorry, once again you don't get to make that judgment. I'll defer to the almighty for that. A church is just that "a church" and that doesn't mean everyone who enters it a christian. A church just like any other group of people is a microcosm of society. You have good people and bad people. I can worship, praise, thank, ask guidance from the almighty from anywhere.

I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. Not saying that is what organized religion is but rather that's my personality. What I have a problem with is those individuals that push the "if you don't go to church, if you don't give enough to the church or of you don't believe what I believe you are going to hell" on me.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by alelks

............I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. .........

I think you fired right past craigepo - and missed.

As he pointed out - in major disasters, aside from government, you have the Red Cross and then major local Christian relief agencies that flood in and provide services and food kitchens.

The Baptists in most southeastern states have pretty well organized field kitchen services.

You don't see many "I don't believe the way you believe" agencies flooding in to help.

It's not all about money.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Pete

It's not all about money.

Roger that.

[alelks]

Pete,

Actually I think I nailed it.

The post states that "Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor."

Seems to be saying that if you're not part of an organized religion you're 2nd class (an atheist perhaps) and don't count in the big picture. Further it hints that only "Believers" meaning organized religion in this conversation donated or did anything.

I'm not part of any "I worship in my own way" organization as once again I don't feel the need to belong to ANY organization to feel better about myself.

Religion is a good thing and organizations have their place for most people but belonging to one isn't a requirement for getting into heaven in my book.

Unfortunately the bible wasn't written by God or Jesus but rather man and man decided what to put in it. There in lies a MAJOR flaw as I see it. Who determined what goes in and what gets left out of the bible and what were their goals.


My philosophy:

Live your life to the best of your ability
Treat everyone with respect
Help others along the way when possible
Ask the creator for guidance for yourself and others
Ask the creator for forgiveness
Thank the creator for everything he has and will do for you
Raise your children to do all the above

[Pete]

Originally Posted by alelks

......Seems to be saying that if you're not part of an organized religion you're 2nd class (an atheist perhaps) and don't count in the big picture. Further it hints that only "Believers" meaning organized religion in this conversation donated or did anything............

Money talks - and it ain't only good Christians that donate money in a disaster. Everybody donates - but it takes an organization to put that money to work.

I mentioned the Baptists but I'm not one. I did a little research on them and saw their field kitchens in operation. They even had at least one here in Fayetteville after the Tornado. I give to them in a disaster because my sect seems to have sticky fingers.

So if a disaster hit an area close to home who would you pick to help out? For a person with skills sometimes the skills are worth more than money.

Money machines

[alelks]

Originally Posted by Pete

Money talks - and it ain't only good Christians that donate money in a disaster. Everybody donates - but it takes an organization to put that money to work.

I mentioned the Baptists but I'm not one. I did a little research on them and saw their field kitchens in operation. They even had at least one here in Fayetteville after the Tornado. I give to them in a disaster because my sect seems to have sticky fingers.

So if a disaster hit an area close to home who would you pick to help out? For a person with skills sometimes the skills are worth more than money.

I totally agree. As I stated, organized religion is a good thing, I'm just not quiet when mislead organized religion try's to state that they are the only game in town.

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by craigepo

I find this thread interesting.

I recently went out to help with relief work in Joplin, Mo., a few days after the tornado had hit the town. I was amazed by the number of church buses that were parked everywhere; churches in the region had loaded up bus after bus, and the congregation members were all over the stricken area, doing what they could. The US government was not helping dig bodies out of the rubble---it was a region's worth of churches. People taking time off work, away from their own lives, to just come help.

On the periphery of the stricken area, various Christian organizations had set up tractor trailers for relief stuff. Food, clothing, shelter, everything was provided by organizations like the Convoy of Hope. Churches in the region donated so much stuff that those who had suffered from the tornado were taken care of almost immediately.

The Scottish Rite cathedral was packed with Masons from several states. They spent their time cooking and taking meals from the cathedral to the people working in the stricken area. One Mason brought a smoker and cooked 500 lbs of pork butts per day for the workers.

Interestingly, I did not see one atheist organization in Joplin helping dig through rubble. Also, I didn't see any trucks from an "I worship in my own way" organization handing out food or clothing. It was entirely donated from "Believers'" treasuries and labor.

I realize that it is easy to heckle "Christians", preachers, "the Church", and the notion of a congregation giving money to a church. Indeed, like every human endeavor, humans occasionally screw religion up. But, you might want to go out and get some ground truth before you anonymously deride these organizations from the comfort of your keyboard.

I don't think anyone could have express it any better.... God bless you brother.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by alelks

My feeling is that as long as I live my life the best I can helping people along the way and ask the almighty for guidance and forgiveness I'm good to go.

I feel the same. I grew up Catholic, but in the 5th grade I decided their whole "if you're not Catholic you can't go to Heaven" speeches, among some other proclamations, to be ridiculous.


I've been a recovering Catholic ever since.

Oh and and as far as the money thing? My family moved to Indy from Chicago and my baby brother was in first grade I think. They put him in private Catholic school down there but then decided to send him to the public school. My father asked for my brother's records and was told he was "behind in his tithing" and would need to pay up to get the records. They obviously had never met my dad...huge mistake.

[incarcerated]

Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…

[alelks]

Originally Posted by incarcerated

Well….I’m glad we had this little chat…

Sometimes it's a good thing to vent.

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by alelks

And here is as perfect example of why I don't belong to an organized religion.

According to this statement if I don't belong to an organized religion then I am not a "Believer". Unfortunately too many religious institutions believe this for some reason. Sorry, once again you don't get to make that judgment. I'll defer to the almighty for that. A church is just that "a church" and that doesn't mean everyone who enters it a christian. A church just like any other group of people is a microcosm of society. You have good people and bad people. I can worship, praise, thank, ask guidance from the almighty from anywhere.

I have absolutely have no problem with people who like organized religion as if that is what it takes for them to fulfill their needs. I'm a loner by nature and don't need to belong to a group to feel good about myself personally. Not saying that is what organized religion is but rather that's my personality. What I have a problem with is those individuals that push the "if you don't go to church, if you don't give enough to the church or of you don't believe what I believe you are going to hell" on me.

My poorly-written point was not meant to be personal, impugn anyone's beliefs, or to imply that certain persons are better than others. It was simply to illustrate that the money collected by churches is very often put to good use, a use that is often maligned and consistently ignored. Moreover, the pooling of this money allows the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

"Unfortunately the bible wasn't written by God or Jesus but rather man and man decided what to put in it. There in lies a MAJOR flaw as I see it. Who determined what goes in and what gets left out of the bible and what were their goals."

I used to think the same thing, until I studied the council of Nicea.

[Richard]

I used to think the same thing, until I studied the council of Nicea.

Council of Nicea - a textbook case business marketing and sales strategy meeting.

All this reminds me of the following:

The hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast in 2005 were devastating and did not spare the houses of worship in and around the area. One of the local television stations aired an interview by a reporter who was from a Boston affiliate in which the reporter asked a local resident how such total and complete devastation of the churches in the area had affected their lives.

Without hesitation, the local resident replied, "I don't know about all those other people, but we haven't gone to Churches in years...we prefer to get our chicken from Popeye's."

Richard