Robed Muslim Clerics Kicked Off Flight

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Richard

Muhammed, like Jesus of Nazareth, wrote nothing.

Richard

Richard,
Your belief system, as it relates to this, is irrelevant. Muslims believe he did so we have to take it from there.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Blue

Substitute "Christianity" for "Islam" and "Christians" for "Muslims" above, and it is just as much a truth.

Again, you've said nothing. Of course Christians believe in the Bible. Muslims believe in the Quran and Haddith.
My point, now pay attention, is that non radical Muslims only practice elements of their documents.

[PRB]

BTW, it is only tradition that Muhammed could not write and never really proven altho he did orally submit verses thru his Uncle.
On thread, I agree, the pilot was def wrong.
Ruth, however, is playing the word game Muslims play with non believers who she believes have no concept of what is written in her religion.

[Blue]

My point is that you thumb your nose at Muslims for doing the exact same thing that Christians (and Jews) do. You can argue all day long about the evil perpetrated by radical Muslims, when extremist Christians are guilty of the same belief system. Moderate and mainstream Christians don't expend energy on the idiots because they don't take them to be representative of their religion, but we expect Muslims to (even though when they do, it's never good enough).

Hate is hate. A Muslim extremist's hell isn't going to burn any hotter than a Christian's.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by PRB

Your belief system, as it relates to this, is irrelevant. Muslims believe he did so we have to take it from there.

Historical fact cannot be proscribed as irrelevant, and I have little reason to think that violence inspired by nebulously written religious texts will ever cease.

Richard

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Blue

My point is that you thumb your nose at Muslims for doing the exact same thing that Christians (and Jews) do. You can argue all day long about the evil perpetrated by radical Muslims, when extremist Christians are guilty of the same belief system. Moderate and mainstream Christians don't expend energy on the idiots because they don't take them to be representative of their religion, but we expect Muslims to (even though when they do, it's never good enough).

Hate is hate. A Muslim extremist's hell isn't going to burn any hotter than a Christian's.

I'm not concerned about 'evil beliefs'... I'm concerned about evil actions based upon valid Quranic verse and Haddith . You still don't get it do you.
Now I remember, I'd forgotten how I go thru all of that crap at the airport because of those pesky Christian extremists...oh, and didn't they assault those hotels...and I absolutely hate those extremist Christian suicide bombers.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Richard

Historical fact cannot be proscribed as irrelevant, and I have little reason to think that violence inspired by nebulously written religious texts will ever cease.

Richard

Ok, 'wrote' was a figure of speech, histrical fact is now relevant.
So, we should ignore the violence, and what feeds it because you think it will never cease?
We should give a pass to a violent form of Religion that is being used at it's word to underwrite the killing of civilian Americans, westerners or anything not Islamic because other religions have had violence ascribed to them?
An interesting strategy.

[Blue]

Oh yes, Christians have never committed any crime because of their interpretation of the Bible. Nope. Never.

And on that note, I'm out. This is tiresome.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by PRB

Ok, 'wrote' was a figure of speech, histrical fact is now relevant.
So, we should ignore the violence, and what feeds it because you think it will never cease?
We should give a pass to a violent form of Religion that is being used at it's word to underwrite the killing of civilian Americans, westerners or anything not Islamic because other religions have had violence ascribed to them?
An interesting strategy.

I have never said nor inferred that anyone should ignore such violence from any sector, religious or otherwise.

Richard

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Blue

Oh yes, Christians have never committed any crime because of their interpretation of the Bible. Nope. Never.

And on that note, I'm out. This is tiresome.

Yes, actually your inane arguments are.
Once again, for the reading impaired, it is not an interpretation of the Quran it is face value..surah's 4:89...47:4...2:217..4:71-104...8:24-36..8:39-65...8:67...
8:59-60...5:51...etc.
It does not need INTERPRETATION...it is spelled out.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Richard

I have never said nor inferred that anyone should ignore such violence from any sector, religious or otherwise.

Richard

Then what is your point?
I believe there is an evil here (Rad Islam) that threatens out society from without and within.
We are at war because of it.
The basic tenets of Islam support and PRESCRIBE violence in many situations and specifically against non believers and their societies as a whole.
My learned friend Blue cannot discern between a Christian adulterating his beliefs (Christ wasn't very warlike)...and a Rad Muslim simply following a written Quranic command that has been underwritten by Muhammeds actions.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by PRB

Then what is your point?

My point was posited in post #170.

Richard

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Richard

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish {Muslim}, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

-Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

And so it goes...

Richard

Actually, I believe this to be your salient point. Your other comment is just supporting fire.
Either way it has no bearing upon my conversation with Blue or Ruth.
My point is one must know one's enemies and they happen to be fueled by Islam. To ignore that, to ignore what inspires our enemies is to ignore one of the most basic concepts of warfare.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Aloysius

There are elements in the Quran that forbid acts of terrorism, that forbid the killing of non-combatants, women and children, and "not to torture or ill-treat prisoners, to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities, and to honor agreements."

But like the moderates who only practice elements of their documents, so too does the radical muslim. The Book of Joshua in the Old Testament calls for the extermination of the infidels. I am not sure I have ever been taught that as a Christian, just as I am sure most Muslims are not taught that terrorism is okay, or just, or holy, or acceptable.

I think we can all make the Quran and the Bible say pretty much anything we want. The truth, to me at least, is that the Muslim religion is being utlized by a certain brand of people and radicalized warmongerers to rally the population to war.

I don't think this is like WWII where you get rid of the doctrine of Nazisim and the problem goes away, nor do I think the answer is to throw members of society off of a plane because they dress like a Cleric. This problem is more complicated than just saying "the writings tell Muslims to kill all infidels." The writings most certainly do not provide for terrorism like we have seen since 1970.

One question is: Why all of a sudden, after all this time, did this radical form of Islam suddenly arise? And how to we exterminate radical Islam?

Because kicking guys off a plane for wearing robes is a poor start to be sure.

Please quote the surah you are refering to as many early surah have been officially abrogated by later surah...also note that the surah are not numbered in order of transmission but by the size of the chapter or book.
In the Old Testiment , and this is an old argument, violence was called for in a specific time/place...not for all of time as in the Quran...and more to the point, the New Test changed the way God/Man related etc....
Radical Islam has been around forever, it generally went dormant when those in power (Governmental/tribal) did not have the wherewithal to promote violent Islam.
The change from Tribal to organizational rad Islam took off in the mid 1800's...try reading some early Qutb.
BTW, Muhammed personally beheaded prisoners as they would not ACCEPT Islam and opposed him...the treatment for Islamic prisoners follows your description.
I disagree with you about the Islamic tradition of violence....it does underwrite violence against non believers. It does so specifically...look up the surah I listed earlier.
Be aware that the early writings of Muhammed, when he had no power and thought that the Jews/Christians would openly convert, are often peaceful and concilitory. However, when he gained manpower and warlike tribes he wrote the war surah's.
The contradiction is obvious and Islamic scholars agree that 'that which came last is best'...in other words the later written warlike violent surahs abrogate the earlier.
Muslims know most westerners don't know this so they trot out abrogated peaceful surah's to mollify. Please delve into this.

[SF0]

Additionally, the Old Testament was written for learning about the religion's history. It was not meant to be followed by modern man.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." Corinthians 10:11

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." 1 Corinthians 10:11

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8:7


The Old Testament was made "obsolete" upon the death of Jesus.

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Hebrews 9:16

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" Colossians 2:14