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Old 02-19-2011, 13:54   #16
incarcerated
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Originally Posted by Aloysius View Post
So what? We went into Iraq and ripped that regime completely out of control of that country? You think that didn't please the Iranians? I mean come on now, we can't have this both ways.
Do you see little value in having pro-Western regimes in that part of the world? Since Egypt and Jordan have come over to the West, the world has not seen a major conflict involving Israel. The region has known peace.
While Iran was happy to see the Ba’ath Party driven from power in Iraq, the presence of American combat forces there does not please them. To the contrary, they represent the primary security threat to Iran. The Quds undertook a bombing campaign against American troops to underscore the point.
That the United States did in a matter of months what it could not do in eight years at a cost of 180,000 dead also bothers Iran.


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You mean to tell me the leader of the United States of America, the country with the most advanced Constitution and what many consider (well, used to anyway) the absolute champion of individual freedoms and human rights, is supposed to say.....nothing??
Only if he is interested and invested in the stability and security of the region and of our allies. If that were the case, his public statements should have been neutral, or should have been gobbledygook that amounted to nothing.

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He is the leader of a country that decided long ago that we will support any people who decides to take control of the direction of their nation, but we only support that right when is serves us? Doesn't work that way IMO.
When did we decide this? Did we support the Iranian people when they decided to take control of the direction of their nation and overthrow the Shah? If, as you suggest in post #14, we are probably the most meddlesome nation in the world, and we do a very, very poor job of it as is stands now in our history, how is it consistent that we should provide unqualified support for any popular or democratic movement in foreign countries?.
We do what is in our national interests to do.

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We can all rag on the POTUS for his policies and decide we don't like the direction he is taking the country, but not responding positively to the overthrow of a dictator - admittedly our "ally" if you can call him that - goes against our ideals as Americans, IMO.
Does it go against American ideals, or the current ideals of the MSM?
I am not ragging on the President. I am asking him to explain himself. What is our policy regarding popular revolutionary movements of Islamic political violence? The only explanation I have heard thus far is “Dictator = Bad, Democracy/Freedom = Good.” What is our plan for the Middle East if we are discarding or undermining pro-Western regimes in Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel? What does this mean for the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan?


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Originally Posted by Aloysius View Post
We can call that government legitimate all we want, but we'd have to seriously consider redefining the term "legitimate." That was not a legitimate government. We didn't turn our back on him, either. Do you expect our Republic not to support the people of Egypt protesting against a corrupt, hardcore dictator? What is best of the people of Egypt is not always best for the national security interests of the US, and vice versa. But I can say with confidence that coming out in support of Mubarak and against the people of Egypt was not going to be in the best interests of the US long term. Siding with a tyrant, especially in that part of the world? Not good judgment.
Mubarak was hardcore? Like Pol Pot? Is the House of Saud a dictatorship? How are they less tyrannical than Egypt? Are you suggesting that we should put the good of the Egyptian people above our own national interests, security and otherwise? Should we assist in the overthrow of King Abdullah of Jordan? After all, he’s a king, for cripe‘s sake. Is France a dictatorship? There has been civil unrest and political violence there among its Muslim population for a decade.
Had Obama come out in support of Mubarak, it would have been gasoline on the fire. The people of the Arab world generally do not want the Infidel Uncle Sam telling them what to do. The important thing for Obama to have done was to say nothing.

Was Anwar Sadat a dictator?
By tagging him with the label of ‘Dictator,’ the MSM has stereotyped Mubarak and has portrayed him as essentially the equivalent of Saddam Hussein. The funny thing about this is that the MSM never demonstrated this kind of enthusiasm for Saddam’s overthrow until 3ID was pulling his statue down in Baghdad.
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Last edited by incarcerated; 02-19-2011 at 17:21.
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Old 02-19-2011, 14:17   #17
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The funny thing about this is that the MSM never demonstrated this kind of enthusiasm for Saddam’s overthrow until 3ID was pulling his statue down in Baghdad.
And nearly half the Country is blind or apathetic to the hypocrisy.
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Old 02-22-2011, 09:12   #18
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This subject is one I find really confusing.

So the major problems if I am understanding right now are:

1) Not all regimes are the same (some are benevolent, others are extremely violent).

2) Democracy isn't necessarilly good, as it is rule by the mob, and you of course need a system that protects individual rights, human freedoms, and the minority from the majority. If the majority are a bunch of people who want to infringe on human rights, or implement hardcore Sharia law, then it is better to have a regime that is not very brutal to the people and friendly to America, as opposed to having said regime overthrown and a government very anti-American and evil thrown in.

However, if we are talking about say a regime that is friendly to America, but then the people want to establish a truly liberal democracy (they want to implement protections for human freedoms and individual rights), and there is no threat of religious extremists, then what should the U.S. do then? For example we supported the Solidarity Movement in Poland because that hurt the Soviets, but what if the Polish government had been a regime wholly separate from the Soviets that had become friendly to America in recent years? Should we have still propped up such a regime?

I could see if the regime came under possible attack from people wanting democracy who were very pro-Soviet (or prone to voting in a pro-Soviet government that would implement hardcore communism), but what if the people wanted a full liberal democracy as the United States has it?
"Follow the money".
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:18   #19
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I'll just post my signature as an explanation!
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:40   #20
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http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...-In-Power-.htm

Will Mideast's Upheavals Put Extremists In Power?

First in a series from a Middle East observer who just returned from the region and whose last report for IBD was "A Restive Egypt Faces Succession," nearly two weeks before the revolt began in that country.
By CHUCK DEVORE
Posted 03/24/2011 05:09 PM ET

With unrest, revolutions and civil war in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Tunisia, are al-Qaida and its "moderate" cousin, the Muslim Brotherhood, on the verge of a stunning strategic victory in the Middle East?
It's possible that this extremely negative development won't happen — that the Middle East may experience the blossoming of liberty, rule of law and respect for minority rights. It's also theoretically possible that the federal deficit may vanish next year.

How did U.S. national interests come to the precipice of suffering the worst setback since the Chinese Communists seized the world's most populous nation in 1949?

In 2008, America was wrapping up its successful surge in Iraq. Al-Qaida was a spent force, unable to mount any successful attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11. Candidate Barack Obama opposed the surge, claiming, with the anti-war left, that the only morally just war was in Afghanistan, a theater which, the narrative went, had gotten short shrift because of the unneeded war in Iraq.
Obama assumed the presidency in 2009 claiming a new beginning in foreign relations — pushing the "reset" button with U.S. rivals and enemies like Russia and the Islamic Republic of Iran, as well as entire peoples, as was his intent with his Cairo speech to the Muslim world on June 4, 2009.

In retrospect, Obama's Cairo speech will be seen as the catalyst that handed Islamists the victory that decades of terrorism and pan-Islamic political maneuvering failed to spark. Pointedly, Mr. Obama's advisers saw fit to invite leaders of Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood to the speech, providing them with an important boost in prestige at the expense of now-former Egyptian President Mubarak's regime.

Abdullah Attai, a professor of Islamic Shariah law at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, which sponsored the president in Egypt, called the speech a historic turning point that marked the beginning of the isolation of al-Qaida. At the time, President Obama's national security advisers viewed the "isolation" of al-Qaida as a good thing. The question they should have asked themselves is: isolation from what?

Al-Qaida and its affiliates represent a branch of Islamist thought that is impatient and hyper-violent and sees itself as much at war with the apostate Muslim world as it is with the infidel West.

The Muslim Brotherhood and its myriad franchises differ from al-Qaida in method, not outcome. The Muslim Brotherhood views the existing Muslim order as in need of revival rather than bloody revolution, to be followed by confrontation with Jews, Christians and the West.

What is important for U.S. policymakers is that neither al-Qaida nor the Muslim Brotherhood is interested in the modern reformation of Islam, allowing for a separation of church and state in a pluralistic, tolerant, moderate and democratic society.

On Feb. 18, Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi, the long-exiled spiritual leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, made a triumphal return to his homeland to deliver a victory speech to over 200,000 people in Cairo's Tahrir Square. Al-Qaradawi, the most important Sunni Muslim religious leader, with some 40 million viewers on his Al-Jazeera program, "Sharia and Life," has fastidiously cultivated a "moderate" image in the non-Arabic-speaking world.

His words in Egypt that day were anything but moderate. Al-Qaradawi called for jihad to reconquer Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, linking the call for war with Israel with the demand that the Egyptian army break the blockade of Hamas terrorists in Gaza. His comments were met with thunderous applause.
Western journalists, with a proclivity for both laziness and shallowness, focused on Al-Qaradawi's call for "freedom and democracy" — but completely missed the point that al-Qaradawi's Muslim Brotherhood, known as the Ikhwan in Egypt, sees democracy as the means to the end of an "Islamic State by the will of the people" vs. al-Qaida's desire to achieve the same ends through violent revolution.

These same journalists ignore al-Qaradawi's vast array of damning interviews, religious edicts (fatwas) and sermons in which he has called for the creation of a United States of Islam (the recreation of the Islamic Caliphate), jihad "martyrdom operations," the conquests of America and Europe, the worldwide application of Shariah law and the extermination of all the Jews.
As the Arab world seethes with unrest, al-Qaradawi's Muslim Brotherhood and its vision for a United States of Islam represent only one possible unwelcome outcome for U.S. national security interests.

Al-Qaida's affiliates remain a potent challenger to the Brotherhood, standing to gain immensely from the soon-to-be failed state of Yemen and the rash Western military intervention in Libya, a nation that has recently contributed one-fifth of the foreign jihadi fighters in the global war on terror.
The Turks, now under the leadership of an Islamist political party, may also seek to reassert the historic role of the Ottoman Empire as the defender of the faith. Turkish support of Hamas in Gaza and distancing of their once-close relations with Israel are part of their effort to burnish their pan-Islam credentials in the region.

Finally, the Iranian Shiite theocracy is making a play too, encouraging unrest in Bahrain and oil-rich eastern Saudi Arabia while dangerously escalating the military capabilities of Hamas by clandestinely supplying them with Silkworm anti-ship missiles to threaten the Israeli navy and commercial shipping.
Hezbollah, Iran's proxy in Lebanon, possesses 40,000 rockets and already has a proven anti-shipping capability, effectively creating the specter of an Arab blockade of Israeli shipping.

Pan-Islamism was the basic glue that held the Ottoman Empire together. Arab nationalism pushed against the Ottomans and was exploited by the Allies to hasten the defeat of the Ottomans in 1918. After WWII, pan-Arabism was the driving force in the region, with dynamic leaders like Egypt's Gamal Nasser seeking, without lasting success, to fuse Arab nationalism and socialism.

Now the Middle East appears headed for a protracted season of pan-Islamic jockeying. The Muslim Brotherhood and its rivals dream of caliphates centered in Cairo, Tehran or Istanbul, cleansing the land of both Jew and Christian and reasserting Islam as a dominant, vigorous and conquering faith.

Sadly, pan-Islamism, just as pan-Arabism before it, will fail its people. Focused on virtually-impossible-to-obtain unity and external matters like confrontation with Israel, pan-Islamism will inevitably ignore internal economic development, rule of law, the fostering of democratic institutions and the protection of religious minorities, like Egypt's 8 million Coptic Christians.

In this, the Muslim Brotherhood's likely long-term failure will open up the door for al-Qaida and its successors to mount a comeback from their soon-to-be-expanded havens in Yemen and Libya.


• DeVore served in the California Legislature from 2004 to 2010. He is a lieutenant colonel (retired) in the U.S. Army Reserve and served as a special assistant for foreign affairs in the Reagan-era Pentagon. He studied abroad at the American University in Cairo in 1984-85.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:54   #21
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So in other words, believing that the rooster’s crowing causes the sun to rise?

interesting
Not necessarily. There is most times a hole in the pompous, Latin quotes of many pseudo-intellectuals who attempt to eliminate the scrutiny of Dustmeister-class rednecks.

In the case of this thread, just go with your first inclination...
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:53   #22
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Not necessarily. There is most times a hole in the pompous, Latin quotes of many pseudo-intellectuals who attempt to eliminate the scrutiny of Dustmeister-class rednecks.

In the case of this thread, just go with your first inclination...
Thanks Dusty....I did.

The ability to pigion hole an opposing opinion into sexy little latin quotes which don't realy add to the base discussion is something I've never mastered. People should just say what they mean.

Cheers.......
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:06   #23
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Respice, adspice, prospice?
Nice job akv,we finally found an interrupter for Richard when he does his thing......

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