Carolina Beach restaurant says "no" to screaming children

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by mojaveman

It can be annoying listening to children scream and cry but I won't say that I let it really bother me. Everybody here was a crying screaming kid at one time.

True, but not in a restaurant, at least in my case.

If my brother or I started, we got warned, then we went outside.

TR

[drymartini66]

It seems to me that alot of parents today are for some reason afraid to dicipline or "mind" their children in public. Screaming children at a restaurant is the tip of the iceburg. I've seen kids climbing on tables that people eat on in restaurants and parents laugh. Of course there's the outright defiance. I've seen small kids hitting, kicking and even swearing at their parents in public. The interaction I see with said parents is more of friend instead of needed diciplinarian. In a nutshell, I see alot of weak parents out there today. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Blue]

This is why I keep thumb screws in my purse....

[Green Light]

I've had three kids. They don't bother people in restaurants, they say "excuse me" if they bump into someone, and look you in the face when they shake hands. IOW, we taught them manners and that they weren't the centers of the universe.

Firm instruction, quick correction, and genuine affection works wonders. They also knew that Daddy had one of the biggest belts in the world. (Used about as often as a Titan Missile Silo)

Just about any child can have a bad day. Just about any child can be taught to be good. Not every parent cares enough to teach them. If my wife and I hadn't done it, they'd be just like the rest of the little brats running around. Just my humble opinion.

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by Richard

Responsible parents will either not place their children in social situations they may not be ready for or correct/remove them if they prove incapable of acceptable behavior.

Goes with the territory.

I think this is the key point... Parenting is the key. Knowing what is right and what is wrong. Today we just take the easy way out of everything that most of us took or lived with growning up or raising our own kids.

Personally, I find screaming children annoying; however, I'm in the set that as a parent you need to take your kid to the restroom and put them in there place.

I think today the whole don't spank your kid(s) has gone to far. I remember my Wife being in the Commissary and getting on our kids for picking everything off tose lower (Kid Level). She pulled one off and spanked her and got onto my Son. A Women walking by gave here a look. She just looked back at her and Said " What you need some too". I think we as a Nation want the best of both worlds. These great kids but no one can do anything to their kids.

Look I know some people go over broad on disipline. But I think some younger parents now a days have been programed not to do a think due to schools, TV and for some their Parents.

Maybe just telling the Parents, hello can you control your Kid(s). Can you take them to the bathroom please.

But once again we as a Nation don't get into other people dealings.

So the easy way, get the F&*K off of this place because of your kids. Yes Parents will get the message from getting kicked out of enough places and yes once they can't go back to that restaurant they both Just Love due to their Kids Yelling and Crying. Once the kids are 7 or 10 then they will get back in. Hopefully by then kids will know better, because their parents you what to do because of getting kicked out of a place(s).

Jumping down now.

[rdret1]

Reading some of these posts, there seems to be a disconnect between the story and everyone's opinion. The child is autistic. I don't know how many of you are really familiar with that condition. It is not something that can be "disciplined" away. I agree that an otherwise normal child who is misbehaving should be disciplined in this situation. An autistic child is different. They, nor their parents, cannot necessarily control their reactions to certain situations. And Buffalo Bob, it is not something a parent may know will be passed genetically.

My son has asperger's syndrome, which is a mild form of autism. It is my firm belief that it was caused by mercury used as a preservative in his MMR shots when he was little. Along with that comes OCD, which includes behavioral idiosyncrasies. There is nothing you can do about it. No amount of discipline, threats or cajoling will stop it.

Autism spectrum rates are skyrocketing ( http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/index.html ) . Do you want to just lock these children away? Do their parents not deserve to have a night out occassionally? Do the children not have the right to enjoy a modicum of happiness and exposure to the outside world? People like the operator of this restaurant are quick to judge at times. The thing is, it was just a simple cafe', it wasn't some joint that charged $100.00 for a glass of wine and required a black tie.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by rdret1

Reading some of these posts, there seems to be a disconnect between the story and everyone's opinion. The child is autistic. I don't know how many of you are really familiar with that condition. It is not something that can be "disciplined" away...........

Just because a person's child is autistic does not mean they get a pass when in a public place.

If a child throws wild fits and causes disruptions is no excuse for the parents to look at other people trying to eat and say "Shut up and eat, my kid is autistic."

How do you weight "rights"? Does the one family with the autistic kid causing a scene in the place have more "rights" than 20 other tables trying to enjoy a night out.

Maybe the parents should do a better job picking the setting and controlling interactions. If the child reacts then he/she should be removed by one of the parents until under control - or get to-go boxes.

I would assume parents of autistic children know how they act.

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by Pete

Just because a person's child is autistic does not mean they get a pass when in a public place.

If a child throws wild fits and causes disruptions is no excuse for the parents to look at other people trying to eat and say "Shut up and eat, my kid is autistic."

How do you weight "rights"? Does the one family with the autistic kid causing a scene in the place have more "rights" than 20 other tables trying to enjoy a night out.

Maybe the parents should do a better job picking the setting and controlling interactions. If the child reacts then he/she should be removed by one of the parents until under control - or get to-go boxes.

I would assume parents of autistic children know how they act.

How many times have you gone to a restaurant and adults are talking loudly, laughing loudly, talking on their cell phones as if they were alone, etc. ? Other than a black tie type restaurant, which ones do you frequent where the general din already there is any more disruptive than a child, autistic or not, would be? Seldom have I seen anyone get up and leave, or make some grumbling comment because of it. My personal experience leads me to believe that crying children, obnoxious adults and "normal" kids running up and down the aisles are part and parcel with going out. Maybe I just go to the low rent restaurants, I don't know. To me, the smell of cigarette smoke while I am trying to eat is much more annoying. I have left a restaurant because of that.

As far as an autistic child being in a public place, I would think that an adult should be able to observe the child for a few seconds and conclude what the problem was, and make a little concession for that. Compassion versus condemnation.

[The Reaper]

Well, brother, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

I am sorry that your child has these challenges. I will probably step on some toes for saying this, but my comments and questions are from the heart, so here goes.

OTOH, your rights end where mine begin. Just like smokers who spoil meals or events for others, misbehaving children have the same effect. Both can be remedied by going outside. Assuming that other people do not mind is a large leap.

I did not get loud and misbehave in restaurants when I was a child. If we started to, we got warned, and then hauled outside before we could disrupt other diners.

My children did not get loud and misbehave in restaurants when they were children. If they started to, they got warned, and then hauled outside before they could disrupt other diners.

True, other people, to include adults, act thoughtlessly in public places all of the time. That doesn't make it right. If you were sitting at a table next to me shouting the F word every sentence, or throwing food, or acting like an asshole, I would first ask you politely to stop it.

I see a huge increase in the number of autistic and ADHD diagnoses being handed out today. There are a couple of possibilities, one that there are more kids with the challenges, or physicians are just throwing the diagnoses at any child with behavioral issues. Not saying you do not have a genuine health issue. I do see a lot of kids misbehaving in public who, in my own personal opinion, appear to have never been taught self-restraint or disciplined. People compliment my wife and I on how well-behaved our kids are, and bemoan their own kids conduct, while ignoring the kids' bad behavior at the same time, not taking any corrective action. I have to shake my head.

I have no education on autism or ADHD, but it occurs to me that if you can teach a rat that action A has consequence B, then you should be able to make that connection with a human child. You act up, you are going to be removed from the situation. Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, if they do not learn to control themselves as children, when will they? As teens? Young adults? Never? Will they have this issue, or the crutch that comes along with it forever?

On the consumer side, all other things being equal, unless I had children with behavioral disorders, I would probably be more likely to patronize a restaurant that banned screaming kids, and less likely to give my business to one that tolerated it. I prefer to eat my meals in relative peace, enjoying my food without disturbing others, and do not think that requiring other diners to do the same is unreasonable. FWIW, I do agree that the expectations at Chucky Cheese should be different from Ruth's Chris, but a child out of control should be taken out of either.

TR

[bandycpa]

The eldest Bandy Boy (who is 10 now) is high-functioning autistic. We received our diagnosis just a little over a year ago. Before we got our diagnosis, we would often try to "script" what he said and how he acted by *telling* him what to do. What we found was that he had an issue with processing speech, and that visual instruction was what he responded to best.

So, I actually showed him video of people ordering in a restaurant...with emphasis on speaking clearly, making eye contact with the waiter, and so forth. He has responded to this much better than when "Dear Ol' Dad" would just say "speak up son!". It has made a world of difference. In fact, the help staff comment on how polite both of my boys are (that's Dad getting to crow a little bit ). We were very fortunate to find something that worked for him like this, as we had tried for years to figure it out for ourselves. One little change can sometimes mean a world of difference.

One thing the pediatric neurologist told us when he gave us the diagnosis was that, if it wasn't going to be a major inconvenience to everybody else, it was okay to let the world revolve around the boy sometimes. We do that on occasion, but most of the time we expect him (and his 7 year-old brother too) to "act like gentlemen" in a public place. So far, they have both lived up to our expectations.


Bandy

[Cynic]

Well said, Bandy. Our youngest son has autism. We learned early on that he learned best through imitation and being exposed to as many situations as possible. We also were extremely sensitive of the rights of others around us. On occasion, hubby and I have eaten in “shifts” in order to keep him quiet and occupied, but we have never stopped letting him try new experiences.
He is currently a high school senior, volunteers at the local hospital, eats politely in suit and tie at Ruth Chris, and will graduate with a regular education diploma in June. I attribute his success to our persistence and support, but also to the kindness and support of others as they see what we try to do. Seems to me to the bottom line is keep the communication lines open and treat others as you would be treated.

[Sacamuelas]

It's nice to see that this thread has maintained an even keel.

Glad to see members respect other differing opinions while strongly arguing their own side with courtesy and empathy.

I fall somewhere between the middle of the extremes. I try to FULLY appreciate the issues a small percentage of children present. I acknowledge that parents of these children need to expose the kids to outside environments. When performed as Bandy described, it would be evident to me as a patron that the parents were dealing with a special circumstance, and I would resist the urge to get frustrated and angry. However, on the other coin, there are PLENTY of parents that get a Dx of autism and then completely use that crutch to ignore their responsibility as a parent to prevent unnecessary disturbances. Ignoring an autistic child in an uncommon environment prevents the benefit that these type parents claim to use as the reason for exposure. We have ALL seen those cases.

I imagine from the emotional and honest replies in this thread that our members that are actually facing these challenges fall into the catagory Bandy has described. For those of you who are ACTIVELY participating in parenting your child ( even if the child is over 18), I applaud your efforts and will quietly eat my meal and silently admire your work. My empathy for your situation will overcome my anger/frustration/stress/distractions.

For those of you who have a crappy kid.... whose child gets Dx'd with ADHD or autism because you are a crappy parent or have crappy teachers who are to busy texting/talking/drinking to give your child a proper example and guidance.... who use the excuse of a half assed Dx of ADHD or autism by a school nurse or counselor to justify your crappy parenting skills leading to a major disturbance around you... Get the HELL out of the restaurant.


BTW- I take my children to the restroom and administer discipline ( boy or girl) when in public. That is only if the pinch/squeeze/skull claw/or death look don't work first.

[rdret1]

My son is going to be 16 in December. Like Bandy's child, we were fortunate that he is very "high functioning." He does not present a discipline problem but he does have his quirks. He hates crowds, they make him nervous and agitated, causing him to "flap" his hands. He eats faster than any basic recruit you have ever seen. He does not understand correct responses in some social situations. When he gets an idea in his head, there is no dislodging it, period. If he learns how to do something, that is the way it has to be done, don't try teaching him an alternative method. He loves to go to the range and shoot. He loves to ride the harley with me. He loves reading, cooking, science, etc.

We have home schooled him since the 6th grade. He did very well in grade school, especially reading. I simply did not want him going to the middle school he would have had to attend. On his last CAT test, he scored above grade level in everything but math. He can do most math in his head without thinking about it; he has trouble comprehending word problems though. Even then, he scored at grade level there.

Autism spectrum covers a wide range of disorders, with each disorder displaying a wide range of symptoms. It has taken my wife and I a very long time to learn what we can effect and what we can't. We learn something new every day. As a police officer, I attended Crisis Intervention Team training and learned even more there. I have had to deal with all manner of behaviors associated with autism spectrum while working the street. At one time, my opinion was the same as most of you. Over time, I have drastically changed that opinion due to the exposure I have had. I have learned how to identify a child who may suffer from a disorder, even if the parents don't know what the problem is. Many of them don't, they simply think their child is misbehaving when that may not be true.

Not all parents are equipped to handle a child with one of these disorders, especially if they are severely autistic. It takes a heavy physical and emotional toll. What do you tell a 15 year old when he asks when is he going to be able to go to driver's ed and you know that will never happen because he is unable to think three dimensionally? In the meantime, he sees his 16 year old cousin driving all of the time.

None of this is an attempt at garnering pity. It is an attempt to maybe get some people to evaluate a situation before they make a judgement that may be flawed. Before you blame a parent or a child for what you think is misbehavior, try to identify what the problem really is. If you still feel the same, do you really want that child sequestered physically? He or she already is mentally. Especially the higher functioning ones. They know they are different. They just don't know why.

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by Sacamuelas

It's nice to see that this thread has maintained an even keel.

Glad to see members respect other differing opinions while strongly arguing their own side with courtesy and empathy.

I fall somewhere between the middle of the extremes. I try to FULLY appreciate the issues a small percentage of children present. I acknowledge that parents of these children need to expose the kids to outside environments. When performed as Bandy described, it would be evident to me as a patron that the parents were dealing with a special circumstance, and I would resist the urge to get frustrated and angry. However, on the other coin, there are PLENTY of parents that get a Dx of autism and then completely use that crutch to ignore their responsibility as a parent to prevent unnecessary disturbances. Ignoring an autistic child in an uncommon environment prevents the benefit that these type parents claim to use as the reason for exposure. We have ALL seen those cases.

I imagine from the emotional and honest replies in this thread that our members that are actually facing these challenges fall into the catagory Bandy has described. For those of you who are ACTIVELY participating in parenting your child ( even if the child is over 18), I applaud your efforts and will quietly eat my meal and silently admire your work. My empathy for your situation will overcome my anger/frustration/stress/distractions.

For those of you who have a crappy kid.... whose child gets Dx'd with ADHD or autism because you are a crappy parent or have crappy teachers who are to busy texting/talking/drinking to give your child a proper example and guidance.... who use the excuse of a half assed Dx of ADHD or autism by a school nurse or counselor to justify your crappy parenting skills leading to a major disturbance around you... Get the HELL out of the restaurant.


BTW- I take my children to the restroom and administer discipline ( boy or girl) when in public. That is only if the pinch/squeeze/skull claw/or death look don't work first.

Well put. We all have our biases and opinions about autism spectrum disorders, ADHD and the alarming increase of said diagnoses in recent years.

I feel there is a lot of over-diagnosis of Autism and ADHD in children and the criteria for giving children these diagnoses are becoming looser and grayer with each passing year it seems. As said by others above, I feel that in many instances a lot of the problem behaviors leading to a diagnosis could have been easily avoided/corrected by consistent, firm -- yet loving -- parenting. You have to ask yourself if you love your child enough to be hard on them?

My children misbehave plenty - I honestly feel that smoetimes they are checking to see if MRFL and I will follow through on our promises of discipline. We have taken our children to the restroom and out to the car (at times, at their request). We debrief on why corrective action was taken, let them decide when they are ready to re-integrate with the social setting, and will pull them out again if needed; some times that means cancelling the remainder of the trip out.

Kids are kids - they will act as such. It is our duty to mold them into strong, responsible men and women. Every waking moment is an opportunity to teach them - for better or worse, and they are ALWAYS paying attention (especially when we least want them to).

[Pete]

Originally Posted by rdret1

....None of this is an attempt at garnering pity. It is an attempt to maybe get some people to evaluate a situation before they make a judgement that may be flawed. ......

The judgement may be flawed but that does not change the cause or the result.

I arrange to have a nice date with the wife at a cozy out of the way place because it's our anniversary. Right before the food arrives the kid at the next table starts screaming and continues to scream as we start to eat.

Once again, who has more "rights"? The kid or all the other people trying to eat? What would be the "right" thing to do? Part of the price I'm paying goes for the atmosphere. The atmosphere should not include screaming kids.

And adults as loud as kids? Surely you jest. I've been in Buffalo Wild Wings at BB Time with all kinds of loud adults and when a toddler in the family section cuts loose a shreek it cuts through everything. Everybody stops talking, gives the "What the Hell was that" look and then goes back to making their adult noises.

While food places around Fayetteville can afford the Odd POed customer or three, plenty of hungry GIs to fill the tables, still they can be shut down by word of mouth getting around that they are not a good place to go. It does not take much bleeding to impact the bottom line in food service.

And all of the above was said as a new Grandfather who takes the 2 month old out to eat with us.

And while we're on the subject - how about movies? Yes, the texting lights coming on and off can be distracting and people coming and going can block your view for a second or two - but a screaming kid? That's it.