'DADT' Debate Heats Up

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

I guess I'm okay with "side by side" but I don't know about "front to rear".

Excellent Dozer................

Big Teddy

[Gypsy]

With the 56-43 vote, Democrats fell short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. It also would have authorized $726 billion in defense spending including a pay raise for troops....

Yeah. And if they really wanted to do the right thing the pay raise would NOT have been tied to this legislation.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Guy

How the hell can you even make a comparison?

FWIW, I've been wrestling with this comparison on and off for the better part of a year. Last month at a memorial, I observed a man in unspeakable anguish over the death of his husband. The widower, an acquaintance, and I made eye contact and an answer came to me.

IMO, the comparison is valid when one looks at the role "mainstream" American culture plays in identity construction (especially gendered identity). A person can pay myriad consequences for not falling into the broad category of "normal."

YMMV.

[Groleck]

Originally Posted by Guy

I told some folks over here...

Point to a black person...they did it right away. The funny thing is that a few folks actually looked for a black person even though I was standing right there. LMAO!

Now...Point right now to a homo, fag, etc.

"You can't do it!"

How the hell can you even make a comparison?

Stay safe.

Today, in the commuter lounge at my college I could have pointed to a 6' 200+ lb man with breasts, lipstick, and dress giving a shoulder rub to another male. Mmmm......gay!

On a more serious note, if the "plight of the homosexual community" can be likened to the ethnic/racial oppression of black people, then I'm going to have to ask where this Gayland is on a map or globe. If it were the same, then Phil McCracken and Anita Dick would have to have originated from this mythical place called Gayland. I heard it was near France...

I also don't recall any laws forbidding the assembly of gays (rainbow parades being proof) or them being used as personal property.....the list goes on.

- Dan P

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Dan P

Today, in the commuter lounge at my college I could have pointed to a 6' 200+ lb man with breasts, lipstick, and dress giving a shoulder rub to another male. Mmmm......gay!

On a more serious note, if the "plight of the homosexual community" can be likened to the ethnic/racial oppression of black people, then I'm going to have to ask where this Gayland is on a map or globe. If it were the same, then Phil McCracken and Anita Dick would have to have originated from this mythical place called Gayland. I heard it was near France...

I also don't recall any laws forbidding the assembly of gays (rainbow parades being proof) or them being used as personal property.....the list goes on.

- Dan P

What is the historical basis of your dismissal of the comparison? Are you certain that the marginalization of blacks was done only through the passage of laws depriving them of their civil liberties? Or did the oppression also take place in other spheres of American life?

[blue02hd]

This topic has now been added to the growing list of reasons why I am looking forward to my 25 and out. It's not enough to be the best damn military in the world when you are hobbled and marginalized by the "uninterested and over educated." I see too many of those who are the least qualified to speak on this matter shouting the loudest from their cardboard soapboxes. They compare and contrast, cherry pick their points as they like, avoid honest concerns from those who will have to live the consequences, and then retreat back to their civilian corners only to search for another hollow political point to grandstand from in order to feel like they contributed SOMETHING to society. Many tout alphabet titles such as PhD, MBA, or MTV Music Awards yet lack one single day of commitment, duty, service, or sacrifice while in uniform. Seems this will never change.

Soldiers have, do, and will always do as their told, despite the greater public's inability to grasp why. This is largely because of their ability to put the service first.

This debate does not seem to be about putting service first.

[Richard]

And so it goes...

Richard

Judge To Rule On Lesbian's Return To Air Force
USAToday, 22 Sep 2010

A lawyer for a decorated flight nurse discharged for being gay urged a federal judge Tuesday to reinstate her to the Air Force Reserve, and the judge indicated he might have no other choice.

U.S. District Judge Ronald B. Leighton said he would issue a ruling Friday in the closely watched case of former Maj. Margaret Witt. As her trial closed, he expressed strong doubts about government arguments seeking to have her dismissal upheld.

The judge's comments came a few hours after Senate Republicans blocked legislation to repeal the 1993 "don't ask, don't tell" law on gays serving in the military.

Gay rights advocates considered the Senate vote a setback, but it focused attention even more on legal challenges to the law — including Witt's case and a federal case in California, in which a judge found earlier this month that the law violates the free speech and due process rights of gay service members.

In 2006, Leighton rejected Witt's claims that the Air Force violated her rights when it fired her under the "don't ask, don't tell" law. An appeals court panel overruled him two years later and said the military can't fire people for being gay unless it shows their dismissal was necessary to further military goals.

The ruling left it to Leighton to determine whether her firing met that standard. At the end of a six-day trial, he suggested the ruling tied his hands.

"I made my call with regard to whether this act was constitutional," he said. "My colleagues — my friends — said, 'Ron, you got it wrong,'" Leighton said during an extensive back-and-forth with a Justice Department lawyer. "They told me what I needed to do, what I needed to ask."

Witt, of Spokane, joined the Air Force in 1987 and was suspended in 2004, just short of retirement, after her commanders learned she was in a relationship with a civilian woman. She was a flight nurse with an aeromedical evacuation squadron responsible for transporting and caring for injured soldiers.

Her attorneys, led by the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington, insisted that Witt was well respected and liked by her colleagues, that her sexuality never caused problems in the unit, and that her firing actually hurt military goals such as morale, unit cohesion and troop readiness. Several members of the squadron testified to that effect and said they would welcome Witt back to the unit.

Lawyers for the Air Force said such evidence was irrelevant. Military personnel decisions can't be run by unit referendum, they said.

Instead, Justice Department lawyer Peter Phipps asked the judge to look back at the reasons Congress cited for passing "don't ask," including the possibility that gay service members could have limited privacy during deployments, and determine whether those factors were relevant to Witt's case.

Leighton responded that such an approach would provide a nearly meaningless constitutional analysis, "a far cry" from the heightened scrutiny called for by the 9th Circuit's decision.

He said he considered two other arguments from the government unpersuasive: that Witt posed a threat to unit cohesion and integrity because she once committed adultery, and that Witt shouldn't be reinstated because the military has an overriding need for uniformity in its personnel policies. Refusing to reinstate Witt for the latter reason would require him to overrule the 9th Circuit, Leighton said.

He said he did not believe the courts were the appropriate venue for deciding whether gays can serve openly in the military, and he credited the Justice Department lawyers for doing an excellent job despite having a tough legal row to hoe.

"You are in a difficult spot, and everybody knows it," he said. "Your ability to take a licking and keep on ticking is much appreciated."

James Lobsenz, an attorney for Witt, said in his closing argument that the government presented no evidence that Witt would cause problems if returned to her unit. It was unconscionable, he said, that she had to conceal her sexuality for years even as she won awards for distinguished service in evacuating and treating wounded troops and government employees from Afghanistan and elsewhere.

"She can go back and serve, and no one will have to lie," Lobsenz said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...hooModule_News

[1stindoor]

Although I'll probably get stoned for the comment...

Bristol Myers has patented a new drug to combat lesbianism...

It's call Tricoxagin.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Richard

And so it goes...

Richard

Judge To Rule On Lesbian's Return To Air Force
USAToday, 22 Sep 2010

"You are in a difficult spot, and everybody knows it," he said. "Your ability to take a licking and keep on ticking is much appreciated."

Am I the only one to find that quote "ironic?"

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

Although I'll probably get stoned for the comment...

Bristol Myers has patented a new drug to combat lesbianism...

It's call Tricoxagin.

Very good,your starting to get up there in Dozer's class..............

Big Teddy

[Groleck]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What is the historical basis of your dismissal of the comparison? Are you certain that the marginalization of blacks was done only through the passage of laws depriving them of their civil liberties? Or did the oppression also take place in other spheres of American life?

My arguments were brief, to be sure. Given your academic background in history, I'm sure you are more well-versed on the matter than I am. However, I offer the following:

1. Gays have never been enslaved in the United States. (barring illegal sexual slavery)
2. Gays haven’t been denied the right to own property.
3. Gays haven’t been denied the right to vote.
4. This Is a touchy one, but how does one define gay exactly? I would say it means you prefer to engage in erotic activity with someone of the same sex. Someone else might say it’s not preference or desire but if one actually performs a homosexual act. I once had an English teacher tell me “Just because a man has sex with another man does not make him gay.” An African American is an African American because that’s what he is. They can’t just change their ethnicity at will like gays can choose their preferences. I realize that some may not agree with me on that one. I don’t have conclusive proof of that assertion.

President Woodrow Wilson watched the “The Birth of a Nation,” and concluded that it was historically accurate. Other movies depicted blacks as some kind of dumb sex craving monster trying to capture white women. Even the show The Little Rascals featured a native looking African who was an exhibit who escapes. He simply grunts and chases the kids around before downing a huge bottle of hot sauce.
You could argue that the media often portrays gays in the same “flaming” light. Some are more “flaming” than others, but flaming gays really can be found in real life, in gay clubs/bars, parades in the streets, and in public. I know that blacks simply didn’t mumble and grunt and hunt white women.

Early 1900 (and probably earlier and definitely later) print media and newspapers contained images/cartoons depicting blacks in some sort of dehumanizing manner, sometimes with Uncle Sam. The one that stand out in my mind are a post card with a black child in a tub with a caption saying “How ink is made.” Part of the reason this is of note is because this was mainstream and acceptable.

Whites frequently got away with lynchings. Railroad companies even sold tickets so that people could attend lynchings as entertainment. The black person’s only crime was being black in the wrong place at the wrong time. Conversely, gays can choose to engage in homosexual activities or not. Blacks haven’t had the convenience of being black one day and white the next. To kill a homosexual for being a homosexual is a hate crime.

Respectfully,

- Dan P


P.S.
If we continue down this track, maybe we should go to another thread. We may be straying away from DADT.

[Gypsy]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

Although I'll probably get stoned for the comment...

Bristol Myers has patented a new drug to combat lesbianism...

It's call Tricoxagin.

I thought it was hilarious!

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Dan P

Entire post.

Dan P--

I think that at the core we have differing views on the extent to which sexuality is a choice any more than one's race or ethnicity or gender.

I think you and I also have differing views on the parameters of discrimination in the United States. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you define discriminatory activity within spheres such as electoral politics and the law. From your view point, one can easily ask "yes/no" questions to determine if a group is being treated equally.

My point of view is different (not better or worse, just different) in that I would also include areas such as culture, extra-institutional politics, social relations, interpersonal relations, public policy, and national security policy. My viewpoint leads to subjective questions like "Do you feel welcome in your own country?"

To me, this question is of critical importance. If we foster conditions in which more and more Americans answer "no," we are going to be in a lot of trouble unless we can offer sustainable explanations as to why the way things are (or are not) are the way things should be.

[alelks]

Good thing I"m not still on active duty because I would push for Coed showers for male and female soldiers due to this ruling.

I mean what's the difference between a gay guy looking at my rear end in the shower and me in the shower looking at a female's rear end?

Equal opportunity in my book for sure!

[Groleck]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Dan P--

I think that at the core we have differing views on the extent to which sexuality is a choice any more than one's race or ethnicity or gender.

I think you and I also have differing views on the parameters of discrimination in the United States. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you define discriminatory activity within spheres such as electoral politics and the law. From your view point, one can easily ask "yes/no" questions to determine if a group is being treated equally.

My point of view is different (not better or worse, just different) in that I would also include areas such as culture, extra-institutional politics, social relations, interpersonal relations, public policy, and national security policy. My viewpoint leads to subjective questions like "Do you feel welcome in your own country?"

To me, this question is of critical importance. If we foster conditions in which more and more Americans answer "no," we are going to be in a lot of trouble unless we can offer sustainable explanations as to why the way things are (or are not) are the way things should be.

Sigaba,

That is an interesting question, “Do you feel welcome in your own country?” As a hetero male, I’d be hard pressed to come up with a credible answer from a homosexual’s point of view.

This question does bring to me another set of questions. If a homosexual responded to that question with “No, I don’t feel welcome in my own country,” then I wonder what role does the subculture that that person identifies himself with play in the framing of his response? What I mean is, perhaps it is “cool” to not fit it in your country, within that particular group of people that he identifies with. Maybe there is an allure to thinking that it’s you against the society, and “I’m not going to change or be ashamed.” Perhaps there is some sort of pleasure out of feeling like "no one understands or accepts you” except a particular group, and that now you have a cause, something to represent and live for.

These questions may sound a little out there, but I base them around the idea that people are social animals and want to be liked, but you can’t please everybody. All over the place, there are people who like to separate themselves from the norm and fit in with a subset of society where counter-cultural ideas are not only accepted but embraced.

Thank you Sigaba, I like the intellectual stimulation. My business class Power Point presentations are certainly less than engaging.

Respectfully,

- Dan P