WP grad killed at Costco in NV because he was carrying CCW

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Richard

In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted.

~ Bertrand Russell

It's a rash man who reaches a conclusion before he gets to it.

~ Jacob Levin

Just sayin'...

Richard

So, jumping to conclusions is not a bonified PT program?

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by akv

FWIW, from a civilian perspective just as Kaplan mentioned a growing disconnect between the civilian community and the military, IMHO there is also a growing disconnect between civilians and LEO based on lack of community interaction. I don't know if it's demographics etc., but my question for LEO is has the interaction demographic changed? You read about officers in the past knowing, and being known in their patrol areas, is this just rose tinted nostalgia? I ask because IMHO , perhaps because I live in a big city, these days it seems the only community interaction a law abiding citizen has with the LEO is negative, traffic violations etc.

You are correct, there is a growing disconnect, because most people only interact with LEO's on the worst day of their lives or for a traffic ticket….if at all. The problem is exasperated by the fact that many cops like to hang out with other cops, partially because you’re on the same schedule, and partially because you share the same life in many ways.

In my experience patrolling in a large city, we were in the same area day in and day out, but we had very little contact with the public at large, you spend most of your time dealing with the criminal element, or driving from call for service to call for service, which is where you interact most with members of the public, but often you went to the same houses over and over again... so you really are only interacting with a very small percentage of the public. The city I worked was a larger city in SC, at any given time there were less than 50 cops on the street for a city of over 100K so you really can't get to know the people in you beat, you get to know the problem makers, but by far and large you aren't going to get to know the public. There were probably 25K or more people in my beat...getting to go them all would be impossible.

As for this case....I can only hope that justice and the truth prevail. Prayers out for all involved.

[18C4V]

Originally Posted by akv

FWIW, from a civilian perspective just as Kaplan mentioned a growing disconnect between the civilian community and the military, IMHO there is also a growing disconnect between civilians and LEO based on lack of community interaction. I don't know if it's demographics etc., but my question for LEO is has the interaction demographic changed? You read about officers in the past knowing, and being known in their patrol areas, is this just rose tinted nostalgia? I ask because IMHO , perhaps because I live in a big city, these days it seems the only community interaction a law abiding citizen has with the LEO is negative, traffic violations etc.

You're describing apples and different apples within apples. There's cops who interact very little with the public based upon thier job scopes. For example, units such as SWAT, EOD, Marine Unit, record keeping, etc.

That's a lot different from the bicycle or foot beat officers who interact with the public on a daliy basis, or the horse officers who patrol Golden Gate Park every day and conducts meets and greets.

The most negative aspect is the traffic unit whose main function is traffic enforcement whose deployed on high speed corriders (19th Ave) where vehicle and pedestrian accidents occur on a daily basis. That's where the average law abiding citizen usually interacts with the police is during an issuance of a traffic citation.

It's going to get worse instead of better since there's a hiring freeze and police respone will get slower due to attrition from retirements.

[akv]

18C4V -Entire Post

Fair enough, I understand there are different job scopes within LEO, and hiring constraints and resources have departments stretched thin. If interactions between LEO and the community are generally brief and negative, how can this disconnect be avoided?

Very generally speaking if LEO are constantly exposed to the negative aspects of society, dealing with the murders, rapes, theft, or even petty crime and people who constantly lie to them etc., and on the flip side law abiding civilians as Defender968 mentioned generally only interact with LEO on the worst day of their life or when speeding etc, isn't it easy for to us slip into the net result of mutual cynicism?

At the end of the day we are all human. The LEO have constant exposure to the darker elements of human nature, and might resent a lack of appreciation for the risks they take, while the civilians are asking why are LEO hassling me when there are real criminals running around? I am guessing here on what Cops are thinking, but I'm echoing what I hear civilians say.

My point is only this, I got the unexpected opportunity to spend some time interacting with LEO off duty, and left with greater appreciation for the profession and reinforced my belief they are generally the good guys. For their part, a few mentioned it's nice to meet a "normal" responsible civilian. I think there needs to be more of this, maybe LEO interacting with schools so when those kids grow up, perhaps we could avoid instances like that fool from Harvard...

[olhamada]

Originally Posted by akv

I think there needs to be more of this, maybe LEO interacting with schools so when those kids grow up, perhaps we could avoid instances like that fool from Harvard...

When I was in elementary school in the '70s, we used to have "Officer Friendly" come by once a month to talk to our class and interact with the us. Most of us grew up trusting the police and interacting in a very friendly and warm way. Most of the kids I see around today have little respect for the police, and even less trust - it has become more of a fear based relationship.

I know these monthly interactions in elementary school weren't the entire reason for the way we now think of and interact with police (parents have a lot to do with kids' respect for authority), but it sure as hell contributed.

[18C4V]

Originally Posted by akv

Fair enough, I understand there are different job scopes within LEO, and hiring constraints and resources have departments stretched thin. If interactions between LEO and the community are generally brief and negative, how can this disconnect be avoided? ...

I don't know.

What our command staff is doing is reallocating resouces, meaning shifitng resouces from one station to another. For example, after the numerous assaults on Asians on the 3rd St Corridor in the Bay View and Ingleside, Command staff has reassigned additonal officers to those areas on a 30-60 day loan. So those officers who will be there for a brief time won't have the time to establish rapport with the residents and merchants on the 3rd st corridor or the bayshore corridor in the Inglside district.

Originally Posted by akv

Very generally speaking if LEO are constantly exposed to the negative aspects of society, dealing with the murders, rapes, theft, or even petty crime and people who constantly lie to them etc., and on the flip side law abiding civilians as Defender968 mentioned generally only interact with LEO on the worst day of their life or when speeding etc, isn't it easy for to us slip into the net result of mutual cynicism?

Generally speaking, I would say yes.

Originally Posted by akv

I think there needs to be more of this, maybe LEO interacting with schools so when those kids grow up, perhaps we could avoid instances like that fool from Harvard...

We do, its just not newsworthy enough for the Chronicle or the Examiner.

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

So, jumping to conclusions is not a bonified PT program?

Nor is it, in my very humble estimation, a very SF way to go .

[dennisw]

Saturday's shooting was not the first for Mosher, who in April 2006 was one of two officers who shot and killed a suspect in a car.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/Search/Abst...aspx?id=194601

I have always thought it was a rare case where a policeman had to use deadly force. In trying to find some support for this, I stumbled across the above link which states that there were 78 incidents where the police used deadly force in Minnesota over a 20 year period. I do not know if this is enough to establish that the use of deadly force is rare. I'm sure there are others on this board with better information. Obviously, Las Vegas is a different animal, but I believe many LEO's retire never having fired their weapon in a hostile setting. It appears Officer Mosher is a statistical anomaly.

[nmap]

Looks like this will not be resolved anytime soon.

LINK to story at Las Vegas Sun

Avoid posting any text from the link: Here's Why

[caveman]

Originally Posted by nmap

Avoid posting any text from the link: Here's Why

Steve Gibson sounds like a prick. So citing the source of an article is no longer sufficient?

[nmap]

Originally Posted by caveman

Steve Gibson sounds like a prick. So citing the source of an article is no longer sufficient?

You, Sir, are an excellent judge of character.

And, apparently, this is creating some potential liability. My understanding, which is probably flawed is:

Provide a link: OK
Paraphrase: OK
Excerpt (brief): maybe OK
Excerpt (long): risky
Whole text: Bad idea

I just wouldn't want anyone to get a nasty surprise.

[CoLawman]

I have a high degree of confidence the investigation will be conducted without the "us against the world" bias. I believe the officials responsible for the investigation will conduct a comprehensive and thorough examination of all available facts which they can draw conclusions from. The final findings are going to be disputed by those who expect/want a different result.

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by nmap

Looks like this will not be resolved anytime soon.

LINK to story at Las Vegas Sun

Avoid posting any text from the link: Here's Why

Thanks for the heads up on Gibson.

[bubblehead]

Originally Posted by nmap

Looks like this will not be resolved anytime soon.

LINK to story at Las Vegas Sun

Avoid posting any text from the link: Here's Why

Yes, DMCA Takedown Notice.

[WholeManin2010]

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...ht-be-packing/