War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims

[T-Rock]

I remember the Jesuits were very firm disciplinarians, and no matter how much I wanted Hey Suez to intervene, he was a no show.

The days of the sign gifts have ceased, or at least… until you see those from Judea fleeing to the mountains

Meanwhile, the TJ principle applies

“I abuse the priests indeed, who have so much abused the pure and holy doctrines of their master, and who have laid me under no obligation to reticence as to the tricks of their trade. The genuine system of Jesus, and the artificial structure they have erected (clergy), to make them the instruments of wealth, power and pre-eminence to themselves, are as distinct things in my view as light and darkness: and while I have classed them with soothsayers and necramancer, I place him among the greatest of the reformers of morals, and scourges of priest-craft that have ever existed. They felt him as such, and never rested until they had silenced him by death.”

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by echoes

Richard Sir,

Again, am confused.



Holly......

Holly,
Sir Richard is referring to Jesus on the Cross saying "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" Luke23:34

[T-Rock]

Wow, some very strong emotions on display in this thread. I myself am very confused on the Muslims issue because I see some say Islam is a religion of peace where the majority of the adherents are good people, but it is being given a bad name by a few extremists, whereas I also see some say that the previous is politically-correct nonsense, that Islam is not any religion of peace, and that any peaceful followers of it literally do not understand their own religion.

I am not educated enough on it to make any decision right now however.

IMHO, Islam as a religion is not peaceful, however, some Muslims are - trust is an issue - al Taqiyya.

Those that undertake Islam's political goal as an earthly religious duty, the subjugation of all non-Muslims to Islamic law, are just as dangerous as the ones blowing themselves up. Extremely devout mainstream "moderate" Muslims who've succumbed to Islamic ideology who are active, working towards the end-goal of worldwide Islamic dominance, are just as dangerous as the radicals IMO.

You be the judge...

o9.0
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.

o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation (def: c3.2). When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others.

Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,- (Qur'an 4:95)

‘Fighting is prescribed for you’ (Qur'an 2:216)

‘Slay them wherever you find them’ (Qur'an 4:89)

‘Fight the idolaters utterly’ (Qur'an 9:36)

(A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due (Jizya), then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Qur'an 9:5)

o9.8 The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians [kafirs] (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) - which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral regions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High.

(A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

Sources - have at it

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c.../muslim/quran/

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...muslim/hadith/

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Trave.../dp/0915957728

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Le...ter_Jihad_Myth

[akv]

My best friend's Grandpa taught me how to fish and throw a football as a kid. He was tough, honest, and extremely generous. He had served at Okinawa in WW2 and hated the Japanese. He would not own anything made in Japan, let us watch Godzilla movies at his house, or even eat at a Japanese steakhouse. He was never rude to anyone, but he would tell us, "boys remember you just can't trust them." I don't know what he experienced during the war, and though I don't share this belief, I don't judge his views either.

9/11 is emotional for many Americans. I still don't like Ground Zero, I lost friends there. The notion of that Mosque going up there is reprehensible to me. I want AQ and their supporters terminated, no questions asked.

America is a great melting pot of immigrants, a land of freedom and opportunity, yet have we forgotten the past errors of singling out fellow Americans in times of crisis because of their heritage or background, instead of their actions and character?

A Sikh taxi driver who often took me to work in 2001 , draped his cab with US flags after 9/11. He said " imagine the irony of this, they actually think I am Muslim"

Bad men are bad men, whatever they choose to call god.

Frankly, a man I respect had "TAC AIR" on the last line of his dog tags in Southeast Asia... which as faith goes is elegantly pragmatic, and perhaps a solution for all sorts of crisis....

[akv]

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

Her resume (Harvard) automatically puts her argument into question due to a conflict of interest. So too would Georgetown or other Ivy league schools on the Saudi pay roll.

Mr. Paine could you expand on this train of thought?

[T-Rock]

Bad men are bad men, whatever they choose to call god.

Interesting...

The theology and legal system of Islam codified by sharia with Muhammad as the role model is nothing more than a system of legally-mandated hatred.

Big "Mo" hated non-Muslims and advocated the enslavement, robbery, rape, and torture of the Kafir - nice guy he was

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by akv

Mr. Paine could you expand on this train of thought?

How much funding from overseas does it take before we realize that it has significantly influence academia to promote an agenda?

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1741
http://www.breitbart.tv/gingrich-sla...saudi-funding/
http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=85

As one key example, John Esposito is perhaps the highest paid intellectual prostitute out there:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/...ion-vs-reality
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121200591.html

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=29951
http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles...-saudi-puppet/

[Penn]

This disgusting issue has to be re-framed, the marketing argument should not be a political discussion based in 1st amendment religious rights, a musk-ox constructed at ground zero. It should not be called a religious center. It should be address by member of the press sympathetic to the subtleties of muslim intent for what it is, as:

"The Muslim Victory Center Located At Ground Zero".

By re-framing the center as a triumphant memorial maybe all of America will refocus
and see how insidious and determine muslim are, by employing our cultural sensibilities(freedom of choice/right to worship/ speech) against us.

I do not support the construction of the "Muslim Victory Center Located At Ground Zero".

[Saoirse]

Listening to FOX this morning, the vote is coming this morning, is it or is it not a go. If this building is NOT landmarked (the one they want to tear down for the Palace of Evil), up goes the Palace of Evil and hello to tons of asspain!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/03...d-zero-mosque/

They TRIED to interview two gentlemen regarding this matter. One, a muslim who "over spoke" the American when he was trying to give his argument as to why this mosque should not happen and as he related a story of a Mother, who lost her FDNY son in Tower 1. She left the committee meeting last week, after arguing with these dhimmis, and had a heart attack. Immediately, of course, it's a lie and its hate spewing.

T-Rock, I find your posts very informative and I thank you for them. However, I do not see islam as a religion. It is an ideology. It encompassed the very definition of an ideology. And for the fanatics....a cult!

Broadsword, yes this is a very emotional issue. I think it should be for every American who loves, respects and values this country and what she has stood for. Now, with the help of the new Emperor and the amount of money that the muslims have poured into this nation, we are going to hell in a handbasket.


UPDATE: The dhimmis have approved the Palace of Evil. They did not landmark the building. Mayor Bloomberg and this committee has spat all over the people we lost that day and their families.

[kgoerz]

When every enemy organization that is at War with the U.S right now. Referes to their religion when talking about the defeat of their enemy, The U.S. How is it prejudice when we hate this enemy.
When we fought the Japanese we hated Japanese in general. Maybe Bloomberg thinks if they build enough Mosques in the City they won't attack NY again. You know, it's called Surrender.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Kgoerz

When every enemy organization that is at War with the U.S right now. Referes to their religion when talking about the defeat of their enemy, The U.S. How is it prejudice when we hate this enemy.

Sir,

My question is not so much prejudice as precision. America has to fight and kill those at war with her, this won't change, I am grateful for your service, and of all the vets here. There are veterans here of several conflicts. However, reading through the posts here on Southeast Asia for example you don't see this bile for the Vietnamese people. The NVA, and the VC who did barbaric things to villages etc, yes. The corrupt South Vietnamese administration, yes. If anything there is compassion for the sufferings of the Vietnamese people, an understanding that terror and Marxist ideology were forced upon them. There is also respect and admiration for those who fought at our side, the Montagnards, and ARVN when properly led. Folks might say the Vietnamese never attacked America, okay then how about the Japanese, WW2 especially in the Pacific with the cultural differences was a different scenario, the conventional nature of the conflict as well as the geography dictated the only contact our troops had with the Japanese until the occupation was with determined enemy soldiers. Yet during the occupation many veteran accounts of Axis civilians were they were just like people everywhere good and bad, led into a brutal conflict by militant dictators.

Once again at the point you take up arms against the USA, you are the enemy period. What were our views on the Mujahideen when with our support and training they were taking on the Soviets? There are folks here who worked with them, They were still Muslims, were they all evil back then too, was it simply the lesser of two evils?

What happens in 2050 if our grandkids are eyeball to eyeball with the Chinese in a big conventional war? If Iraq has developed into a modern secular state, and both they and NATO Turkey have sent troops to fight on our side, what will our views on Islamic allies be then? History seems to guarantee our friends and enemies flip flop as time and shared interest passes.

This thread is an emotional topic for many of us. By my read the original post here cited Flight Engineer Young's positive experiences with Muslims in Bangladesh, just his $.02. Many folks here are familiar with the views on Islam that BTDT types like MSM Billy Waugh and Major Gant have. IMHO their experiences are extremely salient, not because they were SF, on an SF site, but due to the depth of their experience, because they are both soldiers who lived among the people in Islamic nations, they fought against and with Muslims, yet they were clear on who exactly the enemy is.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

How much funding from overseas does it take before we realize that it has significantly influence academia to promote an agenda?

Robert Heinlein: 'I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'

Mr. Paine,

I read through the provided links with the above quote in mind. Thank you for posting them, by my read I formed the following impressions.

1) Harvard was hypocritical in accepting Saudi money, given their views on homosexuality, and then turning on the ROTC for the same reason.

2) $20 million doesn't buy you much Islamic influence at Harvard, remember this was the school who's endowment was so profitable they were considering doing away with undergraduate tuition before 2008 hit.

3) Kagan and Esposito are misguided and myopic at best.

4) The Saudi prince's allocating money to two colleges in the US and the Middle East for greater education and cultural understanding isn't a bad idea, he lost me with his views on American responsibility for 9/11, kudos to Rudy Giuliani for telling him to shove his $10 million check given these views.

Finally, having worked almost extensively with Ivy League graduates my experience, other than an annoying persistent sense of entitlement and increasing lack of "common sense" ( no monopoly here), on the whole they tend to be very bright and capable once you hit them over the head a few times.

[Eagle5US]

Originally Posted by akv

America is a great melting pot of immigrants, a land of freedom and opportunity, yet have we forgotten the past errors of singling out fellow Americans in times of crisis because of their heritage or background, instead of their actions and character?


.

America was this once....true. But no longer. Instead of a melting pot of cultures and ideals becoming that which made us uniquely "American", we have become a salad bowl of individual cultures existing within the same space. Each entity fighting for it's own identity within our borders. We are no longer striving to be "Americans" - we are Latin Americans, African Americans, Italian Americans, Asian Americans, Pacific Islander Americans, and any other "de-jour" cultural or ethnic title to be placed in front of what we USED to be....Americans.

Everyone wants their own month, week, leader recognition, poster, tax break, college fund, grant, statue, etc....the Statue of Liberty no longer good enough for all.

So too when it comes to jihadists and the Muslim community, only we (collectively) as now "Culturally Sensitive America" bend over backwards to ALLOW freedoms of those trying to DESTROY us. We abhor "profiling" of Arab looking men at Airports or on aircraft while they are speaking in their own language...but stop the 4 year old blonde haired, blue eyed, white kid going through security with his blue haired grandmother.

We are building a FRIGGING MOSQUE at the site of one of the worst attacks on US Soil EVER, and "we" are supposed to be OK with that. The NYPD will have to defend it, investigate threats against it, and people who lost loved ones at GZ will have to walk by that abomination of poor taste EVERY TIME they visit the place where their family member was killed. No doubt call to prayer will be broadcast 5 times daily.

Our government now lacks the will to do the EASY right, for fear of hurting the feelings of others. Whether it be from Islamic Extremists, or from illegal immigrants. Oddly enough, the same person can indeed be both.

Penn said it best...it is a victory monument. And it, as well as the cowards who have allowed it to come to fruition, absolutely disgust me.

Eagle

[The Reaper]

If they ever get it built, I hope they have excellent security, for their sakes.

I, for one, cannot get the image out of my mind of the cheeering crowds throughout the Middle East on the afternoon of 9/11.

That told me everything I needed to know right there.

We just gave the Paks $10,000,000 in aid money yesterday, for a nation where almost 90% of the public hates us more than Al Qaeda. Just put it on our kids' and grandkids' tabs.

I do not like this. At all. But that is just me.

TR

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by kV

My best friend's Grandpa taught me how to fish and throw a football as a kid. He was tough, honest, and extremely generous. He had served at Okinawa in WW2 and hated the Japanese. He would not own anything made in Japan, let us watch Goodwill movies at his house, or even eat at a Japanese steakhouse. He was never rude to anyone, but he would tell us, "Boys remember you just can't trust them." I don't know what he experienced during the war, and though I don't share this belief, I don't judge his views either.

9/11 is emotional for many Americans. I still don't like Ground Zero, I lost friends there. The notion of that Mosque going up there is reprehensible to me. I want AQ and their supporters terminated, no questions asked.

America is a great melting pot of immigrants, a land of freedom and opportunity, yet have we forgotten the past errors of singling out fellow Americans in times of crisis because of their heritage or background, instead of their actions and character?

A Sikh taxi driver who often took me to work in 2001 , draped his cab with US flags after 9/11. He said " imagine the irony of this, they actually think I am Muslim"

Bad men are bad men, whatever they choose to call god.

Frankly, a man I respect had "TAC AIR" on the last line of his dog tags in Southeast Asia... which as faith goes is elegantly pragmatic, and perhaps a solution for all sorts of crisis....

AKV,

My father,bless his soul,was Sicilian and was drafted at 37 years old in 1942,he was married and had one child,my self,big teddy........He could have easily gotten out of serving his country because of his age and dependent status but he didn't,his only request was not to have to serve and fight in the European front because he had significant family n Sicily,believe it or not,the Army honored his request.......... He was a Combat Medic who served in the Pacific from Guadacanal to Okinawa..........He HATED the Japanese and with good reason,he saw more shit than most men are required to see......... Heavy duty experiences that left him with memories he tried to forget,but never,ever to forgive.........My point is those like Saoirse, who have suffered, and find this request appalling and so it should be!............. Its like putting a Japanese Memorial on the very site of the USS Arizona !!!!! And yes,Richard I saw your post,I thank GOD my father never had to....... I'm an old man who looks at WTF is happening regarding this particular issue and I just thank GOD,and if you should happen to get a little tear in your eye from remembering that hallowed day,well thank God for you your still an American............... (Excuse my grammar and spelling I'm sure I'll be taken to task by my brother QP's,but as always, in a PM as not to embarrass me in front of the Forum)........

Big Teddy