Jesus at The Mall

[Peregrino]

Ms. Nasrullah - A simple observation based on my reading of your responses to the questions posed here: I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that we understand your adopted faith better than you do. Your "viewpoints on being an american muslim woman" post appears to be a regurgitation of only those Islamic precepts that you "cherry picked" to address the apparent deficiencies of the worldview you were exposed to while growing up. Your "pop culture" Islam is a uniquely American invention; one of the greatest successes of taqiyyah in the modern era. You really should undertake a form of the hadj and live in Saudi Arabia for a few years. Theirs is the true Islam (just ask them if you don't believe me! ). I can guarantee it'll be educational. FWIW - I've enjoyed reading the questions and your responses; both give me insight into aspects of the ongoing culture war that I'm relatively isolated from. I wish you luck with the path you've chosen in life. As for me - if anyone approaches the women of my family and attempts to subject them to Islam, I will visit violence on them - in Biblical measure.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

I applaud your honesty. I also appreciate you realizing I was not attacking you..................

Brush Okie;

You did read my post # 188? Just wondering. Reply in a PM as to why you're special.

Pete

Still waiting for answers to the hard questions now that the touchy feely ones have been beat to death.

[Sacamuelas]

Per the ADMINS and MODs on this board... this thread is now a QP only thread until deemed otherwise. Just to Recap here are the questions that have been posed to Ruth. Ruth, for the sake of order, please try to answer the questions in the order below. Again, please respond in as detailed and honestly as you can if you wish to continue with this thread. Take your time. Btw- Thank you for coming to this forum to discuss these issues from your perspective.
Here we go....

__________________________________________________ ___
Pete: #68
Do some have special rights when it comes to being offended?

Does her "offended" have higher status than my "offended"?

Is having to listen to religious music in a public - non-government - place "offensive"?

Were some of the posts on this thread "offensive" to her. Is having to read her posts "offensive" to some
__________________________________________________ _____

Pete #93

So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?

If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?

If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
__________________________________________________
Pete #118
Once again - is the point of view against Christianity or all Religions?

Only she can answer that. Would she have got all fired up if the store's canned music cut out and an Imam's call to prayer started up? Would you smile and like the Christian music but flip out over the call to prayer?
__________________________________________________
craigepo #123
While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.

Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?

What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?

Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
__________________________________________________ __
Blue902 #124
4. What is your explanation for reconciling following Islam as a peaceful tolerant religion with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst?

__________________________________________________ _____
Richard #125
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..."
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?

Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.

From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?

Q3: In your blog you stated:

"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."

Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). or did you just forget?
_________________________________________________
lonewolf #134
I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
__________________________________________________ __
AKV #161
The one thing all of these immigrants had in common was a willingness to assimilate into US society, however it seems this is a challenge for Islamic communities in Western nations, do you agree, and if so why do you think this is the case?

Also , as an American Muslim and a woman, enjoying the freedoms and rights you mentioned, how do interpret the treatment of women under the Taliban regime?
__________________________________________________ ______
Reaper #167
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
__________________________________________________ ______
Pete #170
Do you consider yourself to be a good Muslim that believes Islam is the one true religion and all others who are not Muslim are Infidels?

Do you believe in the concept of Dar al-Islam vs Dar al-Harb?

Do you believe in the practice of deception (Taqiyyah) when dealing with non-Muslims?

Does abrogation have a bearing on the Surahs as written in the Quran?
__________________________________________________ _______
Reaper #177
...does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him?

Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia?

If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists?

__________________________________________________ ________
Trock #179
... as codified by Shariah Law, do you think homosexuals should face capital punishment?

Does Shariah Law trump our Constitution?

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Sacamuelas

Per the ADMINS and MODs on this board... this thread is now a QP only thread until deemed otherwise. Just to Recap here are the questions that have been posed to Ruth. Ruth, for the sake of order, please try to answer the questions in the order below. Again, please respond in as detailed and honestly as you can if you wish to continue with this thread. Take your time. Btw- Thank you for coming to this forum to discuss these issues from your perspective.
Here we go....

__________________________________________________ ___
Pete: #68
Do some have special rights when it comes to being offended?

Does her "offended" have higher status than my "offended"?

Is having to listen to religious music in a public - non-government - place "offensive"?

Were some of the posts on this thread "offensive" to her. Is having to read her posts "offensive" to some
__________________________________________________ _____

Pete #93

So was she upset because it was Christian music or just because it was religious music. Does she want to be "Christian Free" or "Religion Free"?

If the clerk would have been from Africa playing a tape of local dialect Christian music would she have asked what it was to be sure it wasn't bad music? Would she have cared?

If the clerk had been from a Muslim country and the tape was in Arabic but with a religious slant would she have demanded that it be shut off or would she have said "My, what nice music. So nice to hear it."?
__________________________________________________
Pete #118
Once again - is the point of view against Christianity or all Religions?

Only she can answer that. Would she have got all fired up if the store's canned music cut out and an Imam's call to prayer started up? Would you smile and like the Christian music but flip out over the call to prayer?
__________________________________________________
craigepo #123
While in a Muslim town, I noticed that a Muslim "call to prayer" was playing, very loudly, from a nearby mosque. The music was so loud that it was audible not only in the town, but quite some distance outside the city limits.

Should I have shown the same righteous indignation that you evidenced by your reaction to the Christian song playing in the Houston store? Would such a complaint, made by a Christian in a Muslim country, be given the same opportunity in the "marketplace of ideas" that your article/complaint has received in your hometown newspaper?

What specific writing or teaching of Christ do you find so objectionable that you become appalled at merely hearing Christian music?

Do you believe that the "verse of the sword" found in the Koran should be given a literal or figurative meaning?
__________________________________________________ __
Blue902 #124
4. What is your explanation for reconciling following Islam as a peaceful tolerant religion with the precept that you cannot withstand encountering other religions in this country without considerable angst?

__________________________________________________ _____
Richard #125
Q1: As an SF soldier who has lived among various communities throughout the world, a general rule of thumb we tended to abide by was the ages old "When in Rome..."
Have you ever considered using or have used such a philosophy? And if not - why not?

Q2: I've used taxis in various parts of the world because it usually beats walking. In every country I've been in and used a cab, they almost always are playing some form of local music on their radios. Here in America, I have also been in a number of cabs driven by naturalized citizens who continue to play the music of their native lands - some of it quite discordant to my ears. When asked to turn it down, they have - but unless it was overtly scatalogical or profane, I have never asked them to turn it off even if it was of a religious nature, although I imagine they would have if I had politely requested they do so.

From your point-of-view, are the tenets of your personal beliefs so rigid towards other cultures that something as mundane as religious music is seemingly so offensive that it is seen as a challenge or a threat to those beliefs? Why?

Q3: In your blog you stated:

"I suspect there was also a latent cultural bias behind my irritation. I don't think this would ever happen in the northeast, the part of the country that I will always think of as home. A Christian radio station playing in a well-known department store - I just can't imagine it happening, or at least not happening without protest. That's the norm I'm familiar with."

Based on that statement, I would have to surmise you have never been to any major retail stores/malls in the Northeast at any time between Thanksgiving and Christmas when nearly all radio stations (and store muzak systems) are playing some form of 'Christian' holiday music (e.g., Silent Night). or did you just forget?
_________________________________________________
lonewolf #134
I don't quite understand why, being a muslim, you say you are not qualified to discuss the qu'ran? I am quite interested in your response to this.
__________________________________________________ __
AKV #161
The one thing all of these immigrants had in common was a willingness to assimilate into US society, however it seems this is a challenge for Islamic communities in Western nations, do you agree, and if so why do you think this is the case?

Also , as an American Muslim and a woman, enjoying the freedoms and rights you mentioned, how do interpret the treatment of women under the Taliban regime?
__________________________________________________ ______
Reaper #167
Should all Muslims, worldwide, accept that Christians and Jews, as people of The Book, have a right to coexist without oppression or dhimmitude?
__________________________________________________ ______
Pete #170
Do you consider yourself to be a good Muslim that believes Islam is the one true religion and all others who are not Muslim are Infidels?

Do you believe in the concept of Dar al-Islam vs Dar al-Harb?

Do you believe in the practice of deception (Taqiyyah) when dealing with non-Muslims?

Does abrogation have a bearing on the Surahs as written in the Quran?
__________________________________________________ _______
Reaper #177
...does she accept that her husband is her master and she can be physically assaulted and quickly disposed of should she displease him?

Or does her American upbringing mean that she considers herself to be the peer and equal of her husband, subject to the laws of the United States, not sharia?

If she has daughters, would she accept them being married off before they even reach puberty to much older men who are practicing polygamists?

__________________________________________________ ________
Trock #179
... as codified by Shariah Law, do you think homosexuals should face capital punishment?

Does Shariah Law trump our Constitution?

Thank you so much for taking the time to put the questions together into one post. That's tremendously helpful. A preface to my answers, if I may:

I am not going to be able to answer all of these questions. Some touch on topics I normally do not discuss because I am not qualified to do so. Some Muslims are willing to supply opinions where facts are required, but that's dishonest and I won't do it.

I didn't come here under the pretense that I was an expert in Islam.
I can't expound on "sharia" or give you an analysis of why some Muslims are hostile to the US and the non-Muslim world. If you expect that I can, it may be because you are assuming that Islam is monolithic. I tried in post 186 to explain that it is not, but in post 191 Peregrino told me that I was wrong, that my religion is not religion but a pop culture phenomenon. If that is how my answers are received, I'd rather not continue. (BTW, that answer took me a couple of hours to write.) If I take your questions seriously, please take my answers seriously.

A faith practice that takes the best of Islamic values and the best of American values is developing in this country, and if you want to gain insight into that I can help you. If you are willing to have me say "I don't know" or "I can't answer that" or "that's not compatible with the type of Islam I practice," then I can continue on here. If not, please let me know before I spend that much time writing answers again.

PM inbound Ruth. -Saca

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

.......A faith practice that takes the best of Islamic values and the best of American values is developing in this country, and if you want to gain insight into that I can help you. ........

You do know that statement makes you an apostate?

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Pete

You do know that statement makes you an apostate?

As evidenced by her reply to me, apparently not.

[Pete]

Spiritual confusion on a bedrock of faith

http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpa...raight+Path%29

.........Some claim that Islam cannot exist without its law - I hear that from conservative Muslims and from critics (and haters) of Islam. Is it possible that in my small world all that matters is belief in God and spiritual practice? Can this too be Islam?....."

Ruth Nasrullah;

I went to your blog and read your last entry and the comments that followed. Your last paragraph in the blog was the most telling to me.

The "critics (and haters) of Islam" do not make up the stuff they are posting. They are simply repeating what the "conservative Muslims" say.

If somebody says something bad about the Quran and a Muslim kills them it's not the fault of the Muslim? That is what your two Muslim posters were saying in the comments section. That and they were ticked that one of the posters asked for a straight answer.

There is no picking and choosing in the Quran. And Ansar and Jabs have pointed out to you. Behind all the "Peace and Love" in the Quran is the sword ready to be used on all who are non-believers and apostates.

Did you get the tone of Jabs and Ansar towards you? Kinda' like - just shut up and do what you're told, leave the deep thinking to us.

[Green Light]

After all, "she's only a woman" and women aren't supposed to question in Islam, just do what they're told.

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Spiritual confusion on a bedrock of faith

http://blogs.chron.com/thestraightpa...raight+Path%29

.........Some claim that Islam cannot exist without its law - I hear that from conservative Muslims and from critics (and haters) of Islam. Is it possible that in my small world all that matters is belief in God and spiritual practice? Can this too be Islam?....."

Ruth Nasrullah;

I went to your blog and read your last entry and the comments that followed. Your last paragraph in the blog was the most telling to me.

The "critics (and haters) of Islam" do not make up the stuff they are posting. They are simply repeating what the "conservative Muslims" say.

If somebody says something bad about the Quran and a Muslim kills them it's not the fault of the Muslim? That is what your two Muslim posters were saying in the comments section. That and they were ticked that one of the posters asked for a straight answer.

There is no picking and choosing in the Quran. And Ansar and Jabs have pointed out to you. Behind all the "Peace and Love" in the Quran is the sword ready to be used on all who are non-believers and apostates.

Did you get the tone of Jabs and Ansar towards you? Kinda' like - just shut up and do what you're told, leave the deep thinking to us.

Sir, I cannot help but wonder why some PS site members assert that extremist Islam is the only Islam and that Muslims with less intolerant views and practices are either duped or ignorant (if I understand this criticism correctly). It almost makes it seem as though you agree with this view of Islam - you appear to be unwilling to accept another version as valid and within the bounds of the faith. (Please forgive me saying "you" - I don't mean to generalize all members' viewpoints; hopefully it's clear to whom I'm referring.)

Regarding my latest post ("Spiritual confusion etc."), I was actually inspired in writing it by my experience on this forum. What I said in the post is true: over the last few years I have been influenced by a conservative view of Islam, and gradually have been exploring others. In the line you quoted, Pete, some of the commenters here - not just in this thread but in multiple places throughout the forums - are the "critics/haters of Islam" I refer to, those who seem to ascribe to the idea that only a severe, law-based Islam is valid. It is ironic that reader "Jabs" went down exactly the road I described myself as turning away from and criticized me for publicly questioning even though I made it clear that I am entirely devoted to the fundamental beliefs of Islam (which, ironically again, are described in the hadith of Jibril which he quoted in one of his many posts). That Jabs was driven into a frenzy by a few lines from Rumi probably reflects which end he's on in the Salafi-Sufi relationship.

I find it sad but telling, Pete, that of all the comments made on my post the only voice you heard was Jabs'. Every single other commenter shared courteous and thoughtful responses.

Ansar is a prolific commenter on Houstonbelief. His tone may be sanctimonous but I know it does not reflect extremism.

As for the sword-wielding, apostate-killing version of Islam some of you consider the only true version of the faith - in response I can only say that I do not practice a "kumbaya," peace-love-and-happiness, watered-down Islam, but one that is mainstream - grounded in the spiritual fundamentals of the faith and adapted to the world I live in. La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.

[jw74]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

Sir, I cannot help but wonder why some PS site members assert that extremist Islam is the only Islam.

Maybe jw74 failed to read the whole thread? Maybe jw74 is bucking for a new user name?

Edited by Pete

[Green Light]

As for the sword-wielding, apostate-killing version of Islam some of you consider the only true version of the faith - in response I can only say that I do not practice a "kumbaya," peace-love-and-happiness, watered-down Islam, but one that is mainstream - grounded in the spiritual fundamentals of the faith and adapted to the world I live in. La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.

Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

......... What I said in the post is true: over the last few years I have been influenced by a conservative view of Islam, and gradually have been exploring others.........

Ruth;

Only in the west are you allowed to hold the views that you do. Go to any Muslim country under Sharia law and publicly state that you are going to pick and choose what to believe in the Quran. You will soon be hit with the views that we are telling you about.

Islam needs its own reformation but it will be slow in coming because the Quran will not be allowed to be changed. The views that it contains will not be changed and any who try and change it will not be considered true Muslims.

Until that time comes dar al Islam will continue to try and expand.

Turkey was a secular Islamic Nation for decades. Have you looked into it's political situation over the past few years? Would you consider it stable politically or sliding more into the grip of the religious leaders? Is the Military still the honest broker when it comes to maintaining the staus quo? What do you think will happen to Turkey in the next five years or so?

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Green Light

Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?

Sir, I would not make takfir on anyone unless they openly denied the shahada or practiced shirk - and even then I would not say someone has left Islam unless there was an important context or a very good reason.

In answering the question about "what is truth" I risk venturing into an area someone more scholarly than me might be better able to discuss - someone with more education than me in the historical development of Islamic practice as well as interpretations of source texts. I can only say that from my personal perspective the fundamental truth of life is tawheed, the truth of Islam is the shahada and the requirements of Islamic creed and practice are those listed in the hadith of Jibril. As I noted in an earlier comment, Muslims go off in many directions. Some Salafis say Sufis have a heretical view of tawheed; some "progressive" Muslims say chuck all the scholarship, I can figure it out on my own.

My personal goal is to walk the moderate path, gaining as much knowledge as I can from as many sources as I can. I used to think I knew it all but now I'm not so sure.

Again, I'm sorry if that sounds kumbaya or disingenuous, but to me it's just sensible.

(BTW, am I correct to assume most of you are familiar with the Arabic terms I'm using but not defining?)

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Green Light

Then which is the Islam that was revealed by a prophet of God? If it is truth, then there can be only one truth. Which is it? Are you saying they (those who kill those who kill non-Muslims for not being Muslims) are in fact not Muslims and they are apostates?

A quick response to the idea that Islam was revealed by a prophet - although we believe that Prophet Muhammad's sunnah is the one preserved in the most detail and carrying the greatest authority, we believe that the basic message of Islam - there is only one God; worship Him - was brought by all prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Prophet Muhammad.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

.....(BTW, am I correct to assume most of you are familiar with the Arabic terms I'm using but not defining?)

Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.

Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.

I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.

The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.

The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.

Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?