Veterans start over as colleges ignore experience

[mpb1335]

I tend to read and not post, however, a very interesting article. The notion that colleges themselves (admissions/administration) will not accept the training and schooling as credit is only half of the issue. The ignoring of experiences, in my time as a student, also occurs in the classroom, as professors discourage veterans from sharing their experiences, particularly in government and military history courses. Not being a veteran myself, I was often intrigued to possibly hear what they had to contribute, however, I suppose that is what happens when you attend a liberal school just outside of DC.

[nmap]

Perhaps there is an underlying assumption that colleges make rational decisions. I'm not sure that's a good assumption.

In my own case (me, personally), back in 1994, I took a computer science course in preparation for admission to the MSc program. It was a course that the department had specified, so that was fine. Made an A, all was well.

The course lineup was altered, and a different course that covered the same material was offered. And I was compelled to take it. So I smiled (a rather annoying smirk, actually), rolled my eyes Heavenward, and took it. It was an easy A - a fact I took pains to remind others of. (Evil grin).

So...same college...same department...same academic year...and I didn't get to apply the course they specified to the entry program.

Do colleges try various things to increase revenue? My gracious no! They would never do that!*

*Text in the color pink denotes sarcasm.

[Sigaba]

Are civilians, proficient with this skill or that skill and hours of real world experience using those skills, allowed to forgo or to fast track their training in the armed services?

If an instructor doesn't let students share their experiences during a class, what is stopping anyone from arranging a discussion or organizing a study group?

(How does one know for certain that any classmate has done or seen the things that she or he says?)

[SkiBumCFO]

nmap has it right! i went to a few different Universities for bachelors and masters and I always felt like I was still in the Army. It didnt matter if it was a public or private school it was still a big bureaucracy and fighting it got you nowhere. They took some of my credits from UofM Asian division but didnt really give me anything worthwhile for all my military courses. I just smilled and took the course and moved on. The only thing I learned was that the higher your GPA the more pull you had with the administration when complaining and the more scholarship money you received. good reasons to get As.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

............(How does one know for certain that any classmate has done or seen the things that she or he says?)

DD Form 2586

This form lists the jobs you've held and the Credit Recommendation from American Council on Education

Under 18C mine reads

"In the lower-division baccalaureate/associate degree category, 6 semester hours in construction technology and 3 in technical report writing. In the upper-division baccalaureate category, 3 semester hours in construction project management, 3 for a practicum in instructional techniques, 6 for field experience in construction, and 3 for field experience in management (5/87)."

Under the Sergeants Major Course it says:

"In the lower-division baccalaureate / associate degree category, 2 semester hours in principles of supervision, 3 in group dynamics, and 3 in communication; in the upper-division baccalaureate category, 4 semester hours in military science, 4 in international relations, 1 in human resorce management and 1 in ethics."

Each MOS and job position gets listed on the DD 2586 with the recommendations. Mine is 17 pages long.

The trick is finding a school that will at least read the form and give some credit in the field you are going for.

Get into the 12B4 (Old combat engineer) and you rack up big points in equipment operation, demolition, hand tools, maps, blue prints, supervision, management, etc.

I think I have one on schools and will look for it. Found it:

h. SF Underwater Operations (course exhibit no. AR-0803-0001): in the vocational certificate category, 3 semester hours in swimming and physical education: in the lower-division baccalaureate degree category, 3 semester hours in swimming and physical education; in the upper-division baccalaureate category, 2 semester hours in physical education.

While my stuff is dated they should have something similar down at the Ed Center.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Pete

The trick is finding a school that will at least read the form and give some credit in the field you are going for.

QP Pete--

Thank you for the information! I'll be bringing the points made in this thread to the attention of an academic or two in the very near future.

A question. Would the G. I. Bill serve the interests of the country better if it had provisions that encouraged academic institutions to review veterans' training and experiences for the purpose of giving credit when appropriate?

FWIW, please note that the issue of credits touches civilians as well. A classmate of mine had a law degree but the University of Texas was unflinching in its insistence that he fulfill all the coursework requirements for his master's degree. More recently, a pal of mine who has changed schools has had some of her previous coursework invalidated.

[Razor]

At the end of the day, the school is a business. Should a college refuse to recognize previous credits, especially from those whose tuition is partly or fully funded by the GI Bill or Vocational Rehabilitation, the student might look to writing a polite letter explaining their disappointment in the school's greed for profit over legitimate educational experience, that the student will be looking elsewhere to continue their education and they will be sure to inform all their military-affiliated acquaintences (to include the local VA office that puts schools on the authorization list) that the school is decidedly military unfriendly. Unlike Cash for Clunkers, the GI Bill and Voc Rehab represent a steady and dependable source of income for many schools (moreso now, with the increasing number of vets going back to school); they get a little uncomfortable if that revenue stream is threatened.

[Ret10Echo]

Having the AARTS transcript forwarded to the school provides the institution with all the schools attended and what the "suggested" equivalent coursework is (or could be). http://aarts.army.mil/
As Richard stated, it is up to the school to decide . Where QPs may find themselves in a jam (or other veterans) are courses that will not be included in an AARTS translation because they are not accredited by ACE. In fact the website contains the following disclaimer:

PLEASE NOTE: The ACE credit recommendations can be accepted, modified, or rejected by a college or university. Whether an academic institution accepts the credit recommendations depends on its policies and procedures for transfer credit, your program of study, and your degree requirements.


In the world of higher-education is the one place that you will find someone ask you the question....

"Sure, you have all this experience, but have you ever taken a class in the subject?"

In the end I finished my degree. It cost me a few extra bucks which probably would not have stung quite as much if that extra money didn't have to go toward a "Humanities" or "Liberal Studies" elective.