decision making process of when to draw

[Sten]

Advice from members of this site has led me to the realization that “civilian daily carry” equipment is mostly a personal choice/preference. The only constant is the adage “the first requirement of a gun fight is to have a gun”. Equipment is not my concern, mindset and decision making is what I need help with and hope to discuss here.

My first questions revolve around the decision making process of when to draw.

I am not going to delude myself that I am going to be in an “old west” style throw down where fractions of a seconds count. I have the assumption that reasonable situational awareness will allow time to get to a gun even in a harder to reach holster? Is this a wrong assumption?

I am not fighting terrorist scum, I am not undercover and I am not a law man. As a civilian if I pull a gun in public I am starting a chain of events that is going to result in possible negative contact with local law enforcement, even if I do not discharge a gun. If this logic is sound then it is imperative that my go/no-go draw decision making is sound. Is there anything I can do to refine that decision making process?

[The Reaper]

SA drives the train.

Scenarios can vary from an unexpected assault to plenty of time to prepare and stack mags. You have to be ready for the full spectrum at all times, and rely on your SA to let you know in sufficient time to prepare yourself and your training to put you in a position to survive.

It is a tough decision. Mas Ayoob teaches some decent classes on the legal ramifications of lethal force, and you might want to look for a local criminal defense attorney for some additional specific advice.

Best of luck.

TR

[nmap]

Fascinating subject. Thank you, Sten, for posing the question. And thank you, Reaper, for your wisdom.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Sten

Advice from members of this site has led me to the realization that “civilian daily carry” equipment is mostly a personal choice/preference. The only constant is the adage “the first requirement of a gun fight is to have a gun”. Equipment is not my concern, mindset and decision making is what I need help with and hope to discuss here.

My first questions revolve around the decision making process of when to draw.

I am not going to delude myself that I am going to be in an “old west” style throw down where fractions of a seconds count. I have the assumption that reasonable situational awareness will allow time to get to a gun even in a harder to reach holster? Is this a wrong assumption?

I am not a fighting terrorist scum, I am not undercover and I am not a law man. As a civilian if I pull a gun in public I am starting a chain of events that is going to result in possible negative contact with local law enforcement, even if I do not discharge a gun. If this logic is sound then it is imperative that my go/no-go draw decision making is sound. Is there anything I can do to refine that decision making process?

It's actually pretty simple, when you fear for your life or the life of another (bad guy pointing weapon at your wife kids etc.).

It also depends on what extreme left-wing state you reside in, for example if you reside in the socialist left-wing state of massachusetts and an armed bad-guy breaks into your home in the middle of the night by state law you must cower, turn tail and run away by any and all possible means, lest you face a law suit by the "bad-guys" lawyers for pointing a gun at them.

Know your "use of deadly force" laws and you better be able to recite them. Most states have books written by individuals that lay it out in simple terms "when" you can use deadly force. And when you do be prepared to be arrested and treated like a criminal for doing the right thing.

Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

TS

[Richard]

TR and TS are correct - consider what LEOs go through whenever a weapon is drawn.

Rules of Thumb I always lived by -

• If a life is in jeopardy - draw.
  
• If property is in jeopardy - don't - unless you're in a state like Texas or can justify life endangerment, too.
  
• Hesitation is never your friend.
  
• Practice regularly - a wounded men can lie to anyone with a sympathetic ear.

I sincerely hope you never have to use your weapon beyond regular target practice.

Richard's $.02

[DinDinA-2]

This is going to be a great thread.

The politics of your individual state is very important.

Three acts you might address:

1. The mere drawing of a weapon may be a violation of law because someone may now feel "threatened", even bystanders.

2. The "pointing" of a weapon may be a violation of law because someone now surely feels "threatened."

3. The fireing of a weapon...veriy serious stuff.

The burden on a civilian to "get it right" is huge. So, do you want to be judged by 12 or carried by 6?

I am looking forward to thought provoking post on this subject.

ALL the above and this..

My father taught me one thing about guns that has stayed with me my entire life.

Dad told me, "pull it and shoot or don't pull it at all. IF you can find a way to get out of a situation without using do so. If not, do not hesitate and do not point a gun and threaten. That person might just take the gun from you and shoot you with your own gun."

YMMV

[DinDinA-2]

Well said "mom".

My original intent was to point out that when you "draw", you have set in motion a series of events that you cannot "take back". One person or many may be affected by your decision to draw.

TS, TR & Richards comments are certainly worthy of re-reading. Keep in mind the the QPs on this site are not regular people. Their situational awareness and decision making skills, as a result, are far superior than your typical CCW person.

The ability to assess and act on dangerous situations is not an "automatic" after taking a CCW class. When you go to the range, which should be frequent, you should also spend time practicing some mental exercises as well. When do I feel adequatel threatened to use deadly physical force? What would I do, what should I do? Think of as many scenarios as you can. Then decide if you could have done something to avoid being in those scenarios in the first place. Discuss these scenarios with others you know that carry.

Terms like...feel threatened, fear of deadly physical force, and others, are subject to interpretation. In my opinion, if one doesn't have a very good idea of what these mean to a "reasonal and prudent" person (LE, Judge, jury and yourself), then perhaps carrying may not be a good idea.

Family protection, self protection and protection of others is an obligation for everyone...select the best tools, for you, to do so, and become competant.

[e7cdt]

In Ohio, there are three criteria that have to be met in order to use lethal force (and *any* time you fire your weapon is called lethal force): Don't be at fault for the altercation, Reasonable and Honest belief of danger and not having a duty to retreat. (http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevent...8_ccw_book.pdf) Sadly, TS had it right

Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

The best policy is to separate and disengage, if you can. Personally, I'd only draw if there was a life on the line - or they're in my house (then they made their choice). Hopefully it will never happen, but it's good to be prepared. As my CCW permit instructor put it, "I always carry 2 weapons and extra mags. I'm still hoping I can slide that second piece to someone else and we can shoot our way out of some situation."

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

It's actually pretty simple, when you fear for your life or the life of another (bad guy pointing weapon at your wife kids etc.).

It also depends on what extreme left-wing state you reside in, for example if you reside in the socialist left-wing state of massachusetts and an armed bad-guy breaks into your home in the middle of the night by state law you must cower, turn tail and run away by any and all possible means, lest you face a law suit by the "bad-guys" lawyers for pointing a gun at them.

Know your "use of deadly force" laws and you better be able to recite them. Most states have books written by individuals that lay it out in simple terms "when" you can use deadly force. And when you do be prepared to be arrested and treated like a criminal for doing the right thing.

Make no mistake, these days the "law" is more important than "life".

TS

TS,

God bless the state of Mississippi,none of that s**t applies here. Very good support from LEO's ,etc if you shoot a criminal trespassing on your property. The minute he attempts to enter your home. You can shoot him dead and your completely covered by the law..........

GB TFS

You forgot to mention the simple fact of thinking, if you have the time, can I get out of this without using my weapon. Many don't go that route, but should. Some actions, once done or started, cannot be taken back.
If I can talk my way out of a situation or simply walk away, it is my preferred course of action. If not.. well...

Originally Posted by DinDinA-2

Well said "mom".

My original intent was to point out that when you "draw", you have set in motion a series of events that you cannot "take back". One person or many may be affected by your decision to draw.

TS, TR & Richards comments are certainly worthy of re-reading. Keep in mind the the QPs on this site are not regular people. Their situational awareness and decision making skills, as a result, are far superior than your typical CCW person.

The ability to assess and act on dangerous situations is not an "automatic" after taking a CCW class. When you go to the range, which should be frequent, you should also spend time practicing some mental exercises as well. When do I feel adequatel threatened to use deadly physical force? What would I do, what should I do? Think of as many scenarios as you can. Then decide if you could have done something to avoid being in those scenarios in the first place. Discuss these scenarios with others you know that carry.

Terms like...feel threatened, fear of deadly physical force, and others, are subject to interpretation. In my opinion, if one doesn't have a very good idea of what these mean to a "reasonal and prudent" person (LE, Judge, jury and yourself), then perhaps carrying may not be a good idea.

Family protection, self protection and protection of others is an obligation for everyone...select the best tools, for you, to do so, and become competant.

[booker]

For those of you living in the Commonwealth of Virginia the law is clear, you must meet the following five criteria in order to be within the law:

"THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT if the evidence showed the defendant was to some degree at fault in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, and if you further find that when attacked:
1. He retreated as far as he safely could under the circumstances;
2. In a good faith attempt to abandon the fight;
3. Made known his desire for peace by word or act;
4. He reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of bodily harm; and
5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

The defense of property isn't as well thought out as Mississippi's:

"DEFENSE OF PROPERTY

A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot [but, how many people do you think will go to the magistrate to swear out the following warrant: “look, I was trying to break into this dude’s car when he ran up and scared me by pointing a gun at me and telling me he was going to shoot me.”]) A person has NO RIGHT TO USE OR THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to run off a mere trespasser on their open land (beyond the curtilage surrounding the home). The policy behind these laws on defending property and land holds that human life is far more important than your TV or your car or the grass that gets trampled. But remember that most home burglary situations involve defending not only your property but yourself, your spouse, and your children who are in the home. Also, there is case law in Virginia for the "castle doctrine." This doctrine holds that one may use deadly force to defend his home to keep aggressors out of the home. "

[Sten]

Thank you all.

I am going to run down more information on Indiana's "use of deadly force", "castle doctrine" and CCW laws in general, I will report back on what I find.

[DinDinA-2]

Booker,

"5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

So...practiciing for the X-ring is out? More practice to legs and arms, I guess.

[Go Devil]

Originally Posted by Sten

Thank you all.

I am going to run down more information on Indiana's "use of deadly force", "castle doctrine" and CCW laws in general, I will report back on what I find.

Sten,

You may want to check out ingunowners.com

They have a considerable amount of information and discussion for residents of Indiana.