Is Martial Law a possibility?

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Penn

I am not advocating insurrection, yet.
Though it does appear that letter writing is not going to be enough; in fact, it’s pointless as a means of protest. You have to remember that the BHO campaign can secure the internet and popular view, that’s how they won the election. They raised 200ml, in nickels and dimes; I think? They possess the ability not only to make news, but they control the news. They have taken political psyops to a whole new level. You’re a racist and un-American if you disagree with them.

IMHO, I think we here in America have fallen into the bad habit of looking at the most extreme forces in politics, society, and culture and extrapolating those viewpoints to be the whole. Just as Bush the Younger received cogent criticism from his supporters, the current president will find that his most trenchant critics will come from the ranks of Democrats. If we're attentive and if we can avoid attacking the opposition, I see opportunities for great conversations. (Which means--I guess--I shouldn't be taunting friends by asking "Got buyer's remorse, yet?" or "Still got your receipt?" or "Are you enjoying amateur hour?")

I also think we who sit on the right side of the issues are falling into the same traps that enmeshed the political left. Namely, a crisis in confidence is pushing us into a reactionary role at the expense of offering viable alternatives that will resonate with some members of the political opposition who are willing to listen.

Aside note: I love the fact that both Sigaba and Peregrino can delve into Greek history/mythology in support of their argument.

Being badly over educated in the liberal arts has some advantages.

One other advantage is an understanding that the cry of "worst president ever" and dire warnings that the end is near are nothing new. We were fed a steady stream of the former during the previous eight administrations. The claims of the latter are older than America itself.

Originally Posted by Blitzzz

Expressing differences of opinion is our privilege here. In the presents of so many who have offered their lives in the defense of this nation's constitution, and have been trained in the business of intel analysis, and area studies, I find it difficult to believe that Sigaba can not see the present POTUS's move to totalitarianism. Sigaba, again I complement your obvious level of formal education, but am disturbed at you displayed denial of the reality at hand.
Your defense of the POTUS is sheepish in his rhetoric is to placate the sheep and deliver devastation to the country while achieving his goal of our defeat.

I apologize if I'm wrong, and don't say these thing to Insult but to state my incredulity. Blitzz

Blitzz--

Sir, I do not take offense or insult at your expression of incredulity.

My point of view is, as you point out, the product of my education. That education includes graduate level study of modern German social history and nineteenth and twentieth century American social history At the time of my study, historians of modern Germany were obsessed with retracing the special path (Sonderweg) that led to the Nazi dictatorship. (Historians of the American west think they have angst over "the legacy of conquest." They know nothing of angst--imagine trying to explain why your country was responsible for two world wars.) A bit later, I spent some time studying under a historian who, along with his like minded colleagues, was addressing the question "Why is there no class consciousness in the United States?" The fact that the implicit assumption was never formally articulated or challenged by these scholars speaks for itself.

These two trajectories of inquiry are heavily populated by scholars who are informed by Marxist theory (in particular, the "British Marxist" school of history [e.g. E.P. Thompson], the Frankfurt School, and, to a greater degree in America, the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci ). In short, these historians had a keen interest in understanding the conditions that inhibited the spread of social democracy and socialism. (I'd not say they are communists in a political sense. Rather, as the quip goes, they are Neiman Marxists <<link>>. As one of my mentors would tease, "These guys own fucking houses. They are 'them.'")

My conclusion from this study is that inasmuch as America is contested terrain and that although these contests have been the cause and consequence of great turmoil, even civil war, our present day trials do not activate fears of totalitarian rule or the rise of socialism through creeping incrementalism.

[Go Devil]

Originally Posted by Richard

The idea of the Euro was formally agreed to with the passing of the 1987 Single European Act - more than 20 years ago - and it certainly wasn't a laughing matter among the EU and NATO partners when I was at the AmEmbassy-Bonn during the so-called German Reunification.

Thank you for illuminating my point. The "One World Government" gloom and doom speakers used the above Act to emphasize their end of days messianic message. They were laughed at and called cooks (many of them were).
You personally experienced the ramifications of said Act.
How many proclaimed that the unification of Europes monetary system could not happen, would not happen, but watched it unfold to their dismay?

And who might that be? As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. I certainly hope you're not referring to this guy.

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...a_muslim_1.php

My evident acceptance of disinfomation aside, with our emotional/political climate four years ago, would he have had half a chance of being elected?

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02

Go Devil's malformed view.

[nmap]

In support of my premise that governments, particularly local governments, tend to withdraw...in the article, the mayor considers shutting down quadrants of the city of Flint. However, he does not define what, precisely, he means by "shut down".

Off-the-cuff suggestion prompts discussion on what to do with abandoned neighborhoods in Flint

Posted by Kristin Longley | The Flint Journal March 17, 2009 07:45AM

Ryan Garza | The Flint Journal

The view through an abandoned house's broken window looks out on a boarded-up house across the street on East Russell Avenue in Flint.


FLINT, Michigan -- Look in any direction from Bianca Bates' north Flint home, and you'll see graffiti-covered siding, boarded-up windows and overgrown lots.

About half of the homes on her block are burned out or vacant magnets for drug dealers and squatters. It isn't where she thought she'd end up, but it's all she can afford to rent.

"It's a dangerous place to live," said Bates, 21, who lives on East Russell Avenue. "Everywhere you look, these houses are empty around here."

Property abandonment is getting so bad in Flint that some in government are talking about an extreme measure that was once unthinkable -- shutting down portions of the city, officially abandoning them and cutting off police and fire service.

Temporary Mayor Michael Brown made the off-the-cuff suggestion Friday in response to a question at a Rotary Club of Flint luncheon about the thousands of empty houses in Flint.

Brown said that as more people abandon homes, eating away at the city's tax base and creating more blight, the city might need to examine "shutting down quadrants of the city where we (wouldn't) provide services."

He did not define what that could mean -- bulldozing abandoned areas, simply leaving the vacant homes to rot or some other idea entirely.

On Monday, a city spokesman downplayed Brown's comments.

Flint Journal extras At issue
• City officials say they may consider shutting down city services in areas where no one lives, but no plans are on the table to so.


Bob Campbell, Brown's spokesman, said the acting mayor was speaking hypothetically about a worst-case scenario, "not something that would be laid out in the next six months" while he's in office.

But City Council President Jim Ananich said the idea has been on his radar for years.

The city is getting smaller and should downsize its services accordingly by asking people to leave sparsely populated areas, he said.

"It's going to happen whether we like it or not," he said. "We'd have to be creative about it, but it's something worth looking into. We're not there yet, but it could definitely happen."

Flint resident Derrick Young, 39, doesn't think people in his West Austin Avenue neighborhood would bow too easily to such a request.

"We (are) all family over here," he said. "We all stick together."

Even in neighborhoods where more homes are vacant than occupied, Young, who rents, said the city shouldn't interfere.

"They shouldn't be so hard on people, just because they live in a bad area," he said. "They should find more ways to fix it up and rent it out."

The concept of "shrinking cities" isn't new to urban areas similar to Flint.

Last year, the city of Youngstown, Ohio, proposed incentives to encourage people to move out of nearly empty blocks and relocate to more populated areas closer to the heart of the city. Some people were offered upward of $50,000, according to news reports.

The idea was to shut down entire streets and bulldoze abandoned properties so the city could discontinue services such as police patrols and street lighting, according to a CNN report.

The problem came, understandably so, when officials asked residents to move.

Abandoned and foreclosed homes are on top of the list of major challenges facing Michigan cities, said Arnold Weinfeld, director of public policy and federal affairs with the Michigan Municipal League. The organization surveyed several cities that cited declining property taxes as the No. 1 problem, he said.

In the past three years or so, cities in Michigan have lost a combined $147 million in property taxes, he said.

"That's bound to have an impact on local services," he said. "There's no question it's an issue. Each community is going to address it differently."

Brown took over last month after former Mayor Don Williamson resigned facing a recall election. His replacement will be elected Aug. 4.

Brown is focused on economic development as a key to revitalizing Flint, Campbell said. The city also has the advantage of having the Genesee County Land Bank, he said.

"Cities such as Flint might be forced to make difficult choices at some point," Campbell said. "However, what he's all about is having an economic development plan in place so we don't have to seriously consider that as an option."

Bates said the idea might make some people happier, but she doesn't see how it would help the city.

But her roommate, Gabrielle Daniels, said it sounds like a good idea.

"Let's get these kids out of these bad areas," she said. "Get them out of drug houses and into safer neighborhoods."


LINK

[Penn]

Trust me when I say I have folded more aluminum foil then all the members of this board combined, but for the life of me, I fail to understand why my paranoia hasn’t transformed my native origami skill into that of a couture milliner. So I apologize for pairing insurrection and the word yet in the same sentence.

[Richard]

The idea was to shut down entire streets and bulldoze abandoned properties so the city could discontinue services such as police patrols and street lighting, according to a CNN report.

Sounds like a good time for the city to reevaluate its previous planning, produce a more realistic and relevant development plan, and consolidate its viable communities to ensure longevity while taking the opportunity to create those ever popular 'green zones' in aeas which are no longer of use to a community.

The article does not sound so dire to me - but I have spent many months living and teaching in some of the least desirable environments/communities this planet can offer and may have a jaundiced point-of-view when it comes to such things.

I think I'll just leave my 12 gauge in the closet a while longer.

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02

[GratefulCitizen]

I think that the ability to remain objective is compromised by constant bombardment from various media.
--Never would of thought this 6 months ago.

Some time in October, I cast cable TV and internet from my house, disabled text messaging from my cell phone, turned off the voice mail feature, and frequently don't answer the house phone when it rings.

News is still readily available down here at the internet cafe...in reasonable chunks from sources I trust (like PS.com).
The events going on throughout the world are still clear, but the sensationalism is absent.
When the President was elected, it raised concern, but not a great deal of emotion.

The people who package the news and try to stir emotions are VERY good at what they do.

To anyone whom may be concerned, try unplugging a few things for a few months and see if doesn't affect perspective.
You won't be any less aware, just less harassed.

-GC's .02

[futureSoldier]

Having a minor in classical studies, I can appriciate the arguments comparing the past to previous empires. But, no matter what we cannot forget that we are Americans. By that I mean that no other country/people have been so forged in the idea of independence and figuring out/making a better way for themselves. It is the reason why our capitalism is so strong-we find ways to adjust and move on. Like anything that is independent, we thrive on recovering from failure. Thats not to say that I am not troubled: we went by housing today to move on-post because I am not convinced that the People's Republic of Western Washington will not go to hell while I am gone.

I believe something a bit different-I still think this could end up a really good thing. I believe that 2004 or 2005 was the first year since the 1920's that as a society we spent more than we made. It was only a matter of time after this. I was convinced this was a real issue last year when my sister, a law student at the top of her class-someone who should be a future leader-thought that it would be no big deal to take out an extra $25k in school loans for a nice SUV. Her reasoning was "everyone is doing it"-its true, half of my friends in college loaded up their credit cards with no thought of how to pay it off. I think the issue for this is what my freshman economics prof warned us about: there is not such thing as true bankruptcy anymore. Just like any other consequence in society, we removed true bakruptcy and put in something "not quite as bad." The result is a lack of motivation to change and do better-just like a DS giving a PVT "corrective training." We have taken this out of our society-for a variety of reasons. But the reasons don't matter, what matters is that people of the current generationS have not been given the proper motivation that is supposed to be a key ingrediant to capitolism/democracy or any other system based on independence. They need this failure to teach them consequences/responsibility/choices/sacrifices-any number of things that people HAVE to learn in order to excel. I am confident that we will pull out of this and succeed: the people who designed our society knew this day would happen and designed our gov't so that it can be fixed, and we also simply have too strong of a base not to pull out of this. The point is, humans were never designed to live in a system of luxury as we now live in. There is not any other generation, at any time, in any society, that has lived indoors with such a high life expectancy and level of affluence. For thousands of years 99.9% of the world confronted challenges and discomforts everyday that were simply unavoidable. The people of our time now learn what discomfort is through music and books. Good for us-I hope my children live a long and happy life-but this does mean that we confront some unique problems as a society-problems that simply have never emerged before.

Final thought for those of you who are really depressed, go read the comments on articles in the major newspapers online. You will find an awful lot of middle of the road folks talking about how any idea to the far left or the far right that IS NOT PRACTICAL is bad. I am not saying that I agree with these folks at all (they drive me insane), but I am saying that if 70%-80% of our country is fairly middle of the road with a sense of practicality, we will be fine. They just need to have a good scare and learn some personal/group discipline and we will be fine... So as long as the economy comes around here in the next year or so....



I suppose I should add that I am trying to talk my wife into driving to Montana this weekend to look for property for down the road so that we don't ever have to worry about living around these morons.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

All that thinking and so little thought. As usual, displaying the verboseness of one so highly educated. All the studies and Names aside, what have "You" actually said.
You make the best statement youcan come up with: "My conclusion from this study is that inasmuch as America is contested terrain and that although these contests have been the cause and consequence of great turmoil, even civil war, our present day trials do not activate fears of totalitarian rule or the rise of socialism through creeping incrementalism."
This statement tells me that you either do not feel concerned at the obvious "incrementalism" being propogated by the present administration or appear pro leftest. Pro leftest being a major side of higher education as demonstrated by the many, many leftist Proffesors in that realm.
Many compare the Left and the Right as being related to the constitution, but fail to realize that the constitution is not a mid line document. It is a "Right" sided document. That makes those who feel to be middle of the roaders, to actually be left of the constitution. Guageing the present administrations moves in reguardsto the constitution there should be great fear "activated". Yes, you are certianly a product of your education.

That's what I see, Blitzzz

[Richard]

That makes those who feel to be middle-of-the-roaders, to actually be left of the Constitution. Gauging the present administration's moves in regards to the Constitution there should be great fear "activated". Yes, you are certianly a product of your education.

Well, I guess that make's me one, too, as I also do not yet sense the level of threat to our personal freedoms which are being expressed by some in this forum and - IMO - fueled by MSM and e-rant hyperbole. However, this does not mean that I do not keep watch and take reasonable precautions based on my perceived levels of threats to my family, community, and nation. I personally have faith in our system of government and its general performance as proven over the last several centuries, and trust any truly nefarious un-Constitutional issues brought on by the current Legislative and Executive bodies will be resolved through the inevitable established process of challenge and review by our Judicial branch.

Based on the opinions being expressed in this debate, I suspect that most of us feel this way about the matter:

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”

- Mark Twain

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02

[albeham]

Richard I agree with you.

I believe there is a lot of self fill end of the world crap on TV, News, etc.

..But yet I too watch for the storms..



Al


PS does my tin hat need to fit over the ears? Just a question.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

At least you guys are "watching". Could be your short hairs are standing up? Maybe it's the strong turn toward Socialism that grates against the Constitution and the help the POTUS has to pull this off. I don't watch MSM so maybe I'm missing something. Thanks for watching, it's just some of us are taking greater steps in preparing. By all means alert the rest of us when this assault on the US Constitution is off.

I too believe in the power of the Constitution, but any attempt to "fix" it after the 2nd amendment is negated, will not be as possible, because the Government will no longer fear the people.
Richard I have always enjoyed and respected and still do respect thoughts through your posts. Blitzzz

[Bordercop]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that "they" aren't really out to get you.

[Kyobanim]

PS does my tin hat need to fit over the ears? Just a question.

That depends. If you want to keep out the Bertol rays, then yes.

[afchic]

Given the tenor of posts on this thread, I thought this article was timely.


David Horowitz :: Townhall.com Columnist <http://wntp.townhall.com/columnists/DavidHorowitz>
Obama Derangement Syndrome
by David Horowitz

I have been watching an interesting phenomenon on the right which is beginning to cause me concern. I am referring to the over-the-top hysteria in response to the first months in office of our new president, which distinctly reminds me of the Bush Is Hitler crowd on the left.

<http://magazine.townhall.com/coulter>

(Speaking of this Bush is Hitler crowd, have you see any "I am so sorry” postings from that quarter as Obama continues and even escalates the former president's war policy in Afghanistan and attempts to consolidate his military occupation of Iraq?)

Conservatives, please. Let's not duplicate the manias of the left as we figure out how to deal with Mr. Obama. He is not the anti-Christ, although a disturbing number of people on the right are convinced he is.

I have recently received commentaries which claim that "Obama's speeches are unlike any political speech we have heard in American history" and "never has a politician in this land had such a quasi-religious impact on so many people" and "Obama is a narcissist" which leads the author of to then compare Obama to David Koresh, Charles Manson, Stalin and Saddam Hussein. Excuse me while I blow my nose.

These fellows have failed to notice that all politicians are narcissists – and that a recent American president was a world class exponent of the imperial me. So what? Political egos are one of the reasons the founders put checks and balances on executive power. As for serial lying, is there a politician that cannot be accused of that? And once, the same recent president set a pretty a high bar in this category, and we survived it. As for Obama's speeches, they are hardly in the Huey Long, Louie Farrakhan, Fidel Castro vein. They are in fact eloquently and cleverly centrist and sober. So what's the panic?

It is true that Obama has shown surprising ineptitude in his first months in office, but he's not a zero with no accomplishments as many conservatives seem to think --- unless you regard beating the Clinton machine and winning the presidency as nothing. But in doing this you fall into the Bush-is-an-idiot bag of liberal miasmas.

It is also true Obama has ceded his domestic economic agenda to House Democrats and spent a lot of money in the process. But what’s the surprise in this? After all, Bush and McCain both proposed (and in Bush's case pushed through) massive government giveaways (which amount to government takeovers as well). This is bad but it doesn't make Obama a closet Mussolini, however deplorable conservatives among us may regard it. Moreover, he's already run into political resistance even within his own party. Charlie Rangel has made it clear that the itemized deduction tax hike is not going through his committee – and that should tell you that the American system, the one the Founders created, is still in place.

Even as astute a conservative thinker as Mark Steyn has been swept up in the tide that thinks Obama is a “transformative” radical. But look again at his approach to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. In both cases, as noted, he is carrying out the Bush policies – the same that he once joined his fellow Democrats in condemning. And that should be reassuring to anyone concerned about where he is heading as commander-in-chief.

In other words while it's reasonable to be unhappy with a Democratic administration and even concerned because the Democrats are now a socialist party in the European sense, we are not witnessing the coming of the anti-Christ. A good strategy for political conflicts is to understand your opponent first -- not to underestimate him, but not to overestimate him either.

Once conservatives do that they will find some silver linings in the first moves of the Obama Administration. Through a combination of ineptitude and zeal, Obama has in two short months locked down the conservative and Republican base. On fetal stem cell research, on borders (e-verification), on spending, on unions, on shutting down talk radio, Obama has flexed the leftist muscle so nakedly and unmistakably that there isn’t a conservative left who will vote Democratic in the next election (and there were many who did so in the last).

As we move forward, Obama faces increasingly tough choices in the wars against Islamic fascism in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza and Iran. Hopefully he will make the right choices, and should he do so conservatives will need to be there to support him. If he makes the wrong choices, conservatives will need to be there to oppose him. But neither our support nor our opposition should be based on hysterical responses to policies that we just don't like. Let’s leave that kind of behavior to the liberals who invented it.


My own opinion, is President Obama the anti-Christ? No. Do I agree with the path he is leading this nation down? No. As many have stated on the MSM, they believe the POTUS is trying to do too much too fast. If I was in his position I would be doing the same; pushing my agenda as quickly as I could, given the political environment. People are still willing to cut him some slack on the economy, but that is going to start waning very soon. He realizes his party is going to lose, and loose big in the 2010 mid-term elections. So he better get done what he can now.

With that being said, I still believe there are enough centrist minded democrats that will vote with the republicans when push comes to shove on many issues. They know if they don't, they will be voted out.

I also believe a good deal of harm will come to this nation, due to current policies. But I do believe in America and Americans, and don't believe it will be irreparable harm.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Please by all means believe in America and the American people after all a little over half voted for this, not knowing what "this" is. You mean to believe the same DEMs that have allowed a 3 trilion debt and still want to give more will stop what? Gun control, You do know better. The part about moving too fast too soon is correct but for the wrong reason. Obama didn't expect to move this fast and much of the timing of his distruction of America has been noticed by too many and honestly scares many. The MSM folks will always try to denigrate the Right. As I said the Constitution is a CONSERVATIVE document, a recipe for a great stew, which will be saurered by changing the recipe. Obama is no Chef, at least not enough to rival the founding fathers.
Blitzzz