Bullet Identifcation

swatsurgeon · 03-05-2009, 15:27

Had a case last night that operatively had devastating injuries due to the attached bullet....anyone know the type/manufacturer of this one...
not one I have dealt with before.
It is not a HST, SXT or PMC Star. Any assistance would be appreciated.

ss

CSB · 03-05-2009, 16:43

The fully enclosed base should narrow it down, check some of these out (click on the photograph to enlarge):

http://frag.110mb.com/

Item Number 9 looks close, note the groove in the center of each wedge of expansion. And a gold dot in the center.

Do you have a weight?

longrange1947 · 03-05-2009, 16:46

I would guess Black Talon. I thought it had been banned.

**Ambush Master** · 03-05-2009, 17:02

It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin

HOLLiS · 03-05-2009, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin

That is what I am thinking, I have some of those.

swatsurgeon · 03-05-2009, 19:22

I finally found the detective today that worked the case. Speer ammo and judging by pictures as well as one from my collection of 6 recovered from bodies (patients), I guess it is a gold dot.
None of my previously recovered ones openned like this one...the leaves/petals usually bend back around the bullet and haven't remained on a horizontal plane. The detective said he'd call me back after he gets the bullets out of the gun...his info was based on the case recovered at the scene that said 9mm speer.
Typical of wound ballistics, bullets react differently in different tissues NOT as gel demonstrates they'll do in tissue simulant.

swatsurgeon · 03-05-2009, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by longrange1947

I would guess Black Talon. I thought it had been banned.

the talons and sxt's have a separation plane between jacket and core...this round did not

JJ_BPK · 03-05-2009, 19:32

I'm wondering if it didn't pass thru a winter jacket with a lot of polyester fill.
Slowed it down so it didn't get a chance to wrap the star "wings" back to the back.

Must have been a spectacular hole...

Karl.Masters · 03-05-2009, 19:33

SS,

In CSB's link there is also a view of the bases, your cupped base projectile tracks to the Speer #53617/#10:

http://frag.110mb.com/images/All.Sam...UpSideDown.jpg

**Team Sergeant** · 03-05-2009, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

It looks like the 9mm +P 124 Speer Gold Dot. #53617 in CSB's link. In the upper photo's it is #10, not 9, but in the individuals, it is #9.

Syd,

Did it have a Lead Core or was it a Solid Alloy??

Later.
Martin

It sure would be easier to identify if all that red stuff were not on there.....

Also, it might or might not be one of the same rounds that will be found in the remaining mag, tell the det. to make sure he checks the head stamp on the spent casing to compare.

**Ambush Master** · 03-05-2009, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ_BPK

I'm wondering if it didn't pass thru a winter jacket with a lot of polyester fill.
Slowed it down so it didn't get a chance to wrap the star "wings" back to the back.

Must have been a spectacular hole...

If not through a jacket, any other obstacle or at what range was the engagement?? On the Speer site, one of the things that they say can be found here:

http://le.atk.com/general/speerprodu...n/GoldDot.aspx

The pro-jo is designed to maintain it's performance even when fired through a variety of barriers!! I agree, it looks like it was slowed down.

**The Reaper** · 03-05-2009, 20:23

I agree, it is a Gold Dot.

Hollow points are designed to function and expand within a limited velocity range. Too slow, and it may not open fully, and strangely enough, may penetrate further than the same projo at a faster velocity. The designers want the bullet to operate across the broadest range possible, but there is not too much need for a pistol JHP to function at more than 100 meters, or a high velocity hunting or varmint round to function at 10 meters, so they compromise. The pistol rounds are the most sensitive, due to their generally slower velocity and more limited range. A specific defensive JHP pistol bullet is intended to launch from a certain barrel length (say 5") at 1000 fps. It can be produced with the ability to function properly across a 300 fps velocity range. If it launches at 1000 fps MV, and slows down to 700 fps by 75 meters, then assuming acceptable accuracy, that becomes the effective range of that round, in that weapon. A hit by that bullet at the center of its intended velocity range should be the most reliable and most destructive, with optimum expansion and penetration. There is no need for the bullet to function and expand properly at 1100 fps, so it starts working (expanding) at 700 fps, reaches its optimum expansion and penetration at 850 fps, and begins to fragment, lose integrity, and underpenetrate at velocities above 1000 fps. Below 700 fps, it functions as a ball round, with little or no expansion. This means that the round will have a more limited effective range from a shorter barreled weapon, like a 3" barrel rather than a 5". Conversely, if someone makes a 16" barreled carbine for our round, the range of maximum effectiveness may actually not start till 75 meters and end at 150 meters. The results of impacts outside that optimum range will be less effective and more prone to over (or under) penetration and irregular performance with regards to expansion.

Obviously, shot placement remains the key to the above issues. Not too many people walking off headshots, regardless of the performance parameters and design of the bullet. Environmental factors like temperature, clothing or intermediate barriers, location of impact into various tissues and structures of the body etc. affect performance as well.

I would say that in the case above, the round was at its sweet point on impact and functioned exactly (and nearly perfectly) as the designer intended.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

**Peregrino** · 03-05-2009, 20:42

Just reinforces the decision I made years ago (after the BS about the Black Talons exploded) to use Gold Dots exclusively for my "social" rounds. Hopefully this came out of a "goblin"?

Ken Brock · 03-05-2009, 21:52

I would say it's a Gold Dot but not a +P

The +P versions I've seen fold back onto themselves like a ball

**Razor** · 03-06-2009, 09:11

Expanded as perfectly as it is, I can't imagine it hit much bone. That must have seriously tore up some gut.