Obama planning US trials for Guantanamo detainees

[Pete]

Well, it seems like some in Obama's circle are begining to chew on this bone also.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/wa...in&oref=slogin

Life ain't that easy when you're the one behind the desk.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by nmap

Sir...with all due respect...what is our mission statement? I'm quite serious with my question.

I think it begins here:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...ranscript.html

And here:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...ranscript.html

The framework and the government organs necessary to resolve this pending matter, which could be very awkward both nationally and internationally, exist. We have to ask ourselves...and our representatives...why we haven't made this a priority? And if it proves embarassing...then what? Do we adopt a law such as the 1911 Official Secrets Act which has been used more often to cover up embarassing individual peccadillos and governmental follies rather than to actually protect official information, mainly related to national security, as originally intended?

The alternative, as Orwellian as it sounds, brings to mind the remarks of Pastor Martin Niemoller in 1946:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

People and governments take seemingly necessary, yet often awkward or overly reactive, actions when they face uncertainty or feel threatened. We all know how that happens. Post-9/11 America took a number of steps to ensure the national security of its citizens, and some of those measures seem less necessary now and, in the brighter light of hind-sight, even poorly conceived or executed. Such is life.

The question before us now is what are we going to do about it? I don't have any 'pat' answers for this issue...but continuing to ignore it is not--IMO--a viable course of action for a nation such as ours.

Richard's $.02

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Pete

Life ain't that easy when you're the one behind the desk.

Exactly. Historically, it's referred to as bearing the mantle of command. In the basic branch courses, the scenarios generally offer a situation to be resolved followed by the bucket of cold water in the face phrase, "What now Lieutenant?"

Richard's $.02

[SF_BHT]

Originally Posted by Richard

7. In the WOD--the War On Drugs--do we handle 'narco-terrorists' in the same manner as we handle the 'Islamo-terrorists' of the GWOT? What's the difference? Or is it just those 'legal terms' people are using nowdays that is causing the confusion? And I don't even want to get into the WOP (War On Poverty)!

Richard's $.02

In regards to ones like ELN and FARC they are handled like common criminals. Monthly FARC people are extradited to Miami under indictment's by AUSA's in support of DEA investigations/cases. They are convicted and put in U.S. Federal Prison..... SO now the US tax payer funds the vacation for that person in the US. There have been a couple of cases that as the individual came up on his release date they filed for asylum in the US. They argued that they would be persecuted and or killed if they were sent back to their country. Guess what some have been granted assalyum.... I know a few that came back and they did not last very long, their old buddy's took care of them as most flipped in the US and gave info.

This is the situation that we may face if we start sending these guys to US Court in the US. Many will plead that if they are sent back to their home country they will be tortured and killed. Many that have been released in the past have stayed because lawyers intervened saying they would be in danger back home. I hate the ACLU........

[echoes]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-order-closure

Okay, fine. Where will these dirtbag America-haters go now?

Rediculous, and IMHO, showing the non-intelligence of what is coming forth from the "new, for-change, idiot administration."
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

"Barack Obama: Administration drafts order to close Guantánamo camp within year. Draft order would also declare a halt to all trials currently under way at the facility.

The Obama administration is circulating a draft executive order that calls for closing the controversial US military prison at Guantánamo Bay within a year, it emerged today.

The draft order, obtained by the Associated Press, would also declare a halt to all trials currently under way at the facility, where roughly 245 detainees are being held. Most have not been charged. The Bush administration created the camp after the September 11 2001 attacks.

The draft order would start the process of shutting down a facility that has been strongly criticised by human rights groups and European governments."(typical MSM crap!)

[Constant]

Who would've thought that the gitmo folks would go back to do Jihad? I was hoping after giving them a hug like some of the left want to do they'd be okay.

link here

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by afchic

Unfortuantely our government has not classified them as POWs. If they had this probably would not be the hot button issue it is today.

I am not trying to be a smart ass but first of all how do you have a war against a tactic? When do you predict the War on Terror is going to end? Is it when the United States no longer has to deal with terrorism, or is it when it is abolished from the world as a whole and no nation has to endure it. If so then we must identify what exactly is terrorism. For arguments sake lets say that the definition of terrorism is: The use or threateneduse of violence, directed against victims selected for their symbolic representative value, as a means of instilling anxiety, transmitting one or more messages to, and thereby manipulating the preceptions and behavior of a wider audience.

Is it only terrorism when it is something that we don't like, therefore it is used as a pejorative term? Or is it a tactic and as a tactic it is used not only by our enemies, but us as well? Many throughout the world would classify the firebombing of Japan and Berlin as an act of terrorism, but we do not because we are the ones that did it. As McNamara once said, if we had lost WWII he would have been tried as a war criminal for his part in firebombing Japan. Based on the definition of terrorism above, the bombing of terrorist training camps in Afghanistan can be said to be a terrorist act.

So if we are indeed fighting a war against a tactic, that implies there is no end to such war. So what do we do with these enemy combatants? And if we are justified in holding them, what is to say that our own military personnel will not be held in the same manner by our enemies, not only in this war, but wars of the future.

Additionally, nowhere did I suggest they should be released unless they were found not guilty of the charges brought against them.

I know the QPs have a different perspective on this than I do. And my experiences are no where in the same constellation let alone the same universe as yours. But I have loved ones who are in combat, so this question is just as imperative to me as it is to you all. If this matter was based solely on what is happening on the battlefield then it would not be an issue in my estimation. We would keep on keeping on. But this is now a matter in the political realm, and as much as we may not like it or agree with it, it will not be solved by us in the military. It will be solved in the political arena.

You bring up an interesting point in that the detainees were not declared Prisoners of War. And the key word there is war. Common sense says we are at war with terrorism, but our Government has not issued a legally binding Declaration of War. So I am guessing that legally (BS in text form) you cannot have POW's and the form of justice predicated towards POWs without a Declaration of War. And since we are not at War in the legal sense is not legal to process a 'Detainee' in the same manner as a POW.

[Hostile0311]

Originally Posted by afchic

I know I am going to catch a load of heat on this one, but it won't be the first time, or the last time, so here it goes.

I personally have been saying what BHO has been for the past few years, when it comes to this subject. If we are going to be spreading democracy throughout the world because it is such a great ideology, then we should be trying these guys in our courts here in the US.

If our justice system is so screwed up that we are concerned that some of these guys are going to get off when they are truly guilty, then a)our justice system really really sucks and no one should be tried under it until it gets a complete overhaul b) if it sucks so bad why are we trying to export it to other nations throughout the world? How are we to convince others that our way is the right way if we aren't willing to put these guys on trial here? We are talking out of both sides of our mouth IMO.

Secondly, the ones that are acquitted will more than likely be deported, as Richard stated.

Finally, what makes you think that this ideology isn't already running rampant throughout our criminal justice system? From the studying I have been doing on terrorism, Islamic Fundamentalism has already infiltrated our prison system. The answer should be putting these guys in solitary confinement, if they are found guilty of their crimes.

The. U.S. of A is a Republic, not a democracy. As mentioned by earlier members, once it starts where will it stop? Once they are acquitted criminally may they file a civil suit and seek damages? As I think TS put it, what will become of Discovery? This is a very foul can of worms indeed. My contention is send them back to their coutry of origin and let the chips fall where they may. If they are found guilty and put to death elsewhere then too bad so sad it ain't my problem, they were found guilty by a jury of 'their peers'...They died a martyrs death whether they wanted to or not and we taxpayers won't have to foot the bill for their incarceration.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Hostile0311

The. U.S. of A is a Republic, not a democracy. As mentioned by earlier members, once it starts where will it stop? Once they are acquitted criminally may they file a civil suit and seek damages? As I think TS put it, what will become of Discovery? This is a very foul can of worms indeed. My contention is send them back to their coutry of origin and let the chips fall where they may. If they are found guilty and put to death elsewhere then too bad so sad it ain't my problem, they were found guilty by a jury of 'their peers'...They died a martyrs death whether they wanted to or not and we taxpayers won't have to foot the bill for their incarceration.

Really, you don't say? Funny how for the past 8 years it seems I have heard the term "spreading democracy" and not "spreading Republicy".

We are a nation of laws. We are a nation that stands for what is right, not only when it is easy to do so, but when it is hard, when it is at its most difficult. It is time to classify what these people are. It is time to either try them or cut bait. Is this an intolerable thought for many? Yes, I find it a hard pill to swallow as well. But until we start living up to our own hype, we have no hope of ever becoming that beacon of light on the hill once again.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by afchic

...We are a nation of laws. We are a nation that stands for what is right, not only when it is easy to do so, but when it is hard, when it is at its most difficult. It is time to classify what these people are.....

You are so true.

Since they are not and were not following the laws of war they have no protection under international law and as such can be shot on the spot when taken.

[SF_BHT]

Let me throw out some items:

Why do we have to try them in the USofA? We should look at this, not just bring them in and throw them in Jail and bring charges in the Lower district Court of NY.

IF they did what they are suposed to have done why dont we just classify them and open a court (World Court) like we did in Nuremberg?

Oh we do not want to provide info as how the information was divulged to protect the source and assets.

May it be that we do not trust the other guys to process them? Yes it is......

When we extradite the FARC/ELN etc it is after years of investigation by Leo's, cases open, hard evidence obtained via court orders and a AUSA has charged them in a US Court. When they are captured in another country we go through a process to extradite them which makes us show our case and guarantee they will be tried IAW certain agreements. Some countries will not turn them over unless we promise not to go for the death penalty.

These guys are terrorist and should be dealt with on the battle field and sent to their hoard of virgins. Just my 2 cents...

[Hostile0311]

Originally Posted by afchic

Really, you don't say? Funny how for the past 8 years it seems I have heard the term "spreading democracy" and not "spreading Republicy".

We are a nation of laws. We are a nation that stands for what is right, not only when it is easy to do so, but when it is hard, when it is at its most difficult. It is time to classify what these people are. It is time to either try them or cut bait. Is this an intolerable thought for many? Yes, I find it a hard pill to swallow as well. But until we start living up to our own hype, we have no hope of ever becoming that beacon of light on the hill once again.

Afchic,
I agree wholeheartedly with your position stated above and I too believe it is time to classify them...for exactly what they are, a barborous people lost in the middle ages who have no hope of 'seeing that beacon of light' and should be dealt with in a similar manner. They (the suspected detainees but not limited to) are a 'hatemongering' people who believe their way is the only way and punishing them by giving them jurisprudence under our justice system would be a waste of time, money and resources. I for one do not believe they deserve shelter under our Constitution. Affording them this basic right we enjoy will only serve to make a mockery of our already over-burdened Justice System.
I'll play along for a bit. Say we do try them and they are found "Guilty" of war crimes, etc. Then what? What do you think the MSM will have to say if we impose a deserving death sentence on one of these detainees much less follow thru and carry it out like after WWII with the Nazi war criminals? Giving them status under our law would only open the proverbial "Pandora's Box".

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Hostile0311

I'll play along for a bit. Say we do try them and they are found "Guilty" of war crimes, etc. Then what? What do you think the MSM will have to say if we impose a deserving death sentence on one of these detainees much less follow thru and carry it out like after WWII with the Nazi war criminals? Giving them status under our law would only open the proverbial "Pandora's Box".

Why would the imposition of the death penalty on any of these folks be any different than other death penalty cases in this country? You are always going to have those that agree with the practice and those that don't. I don't think it much matters who it is. Until the practice is deemed illegal in our nation, the MSM doesn't really have a leg to stand on. I am sure there are Federal Prisons in Texas that will have no problem carrying out the punishment, and they have proven they are impervious to what the MSM or anyone else thinks about the practice.

I personally feel solitary confinement for the rest of their lives is a much worse punishment than the death penalty. Let them eat our crappy prison food instead of getting their 72 virgins

[Hostile0311]

Originally Posted by afchic

Why would the imposition of the death penalty on any of these folks be any different than other death penalty cases in this country? You are always going to have those that agree with the practice and those that don't. I don't think it much matters who it is. Until the practice is deemed illegal in our nation, the MSM doesn't really have a leg to stand on. I am sure there are Federal Prisons in Texas that will have no problem carrying out the punishment, and they have proven they are impervious to what the MSM or anyone else thinks about the practice.

I personally feel solitary confinement for the rest of their lives is a much worse punishment than the death penalty. Let them eat our crappy prison food instead of getting their 72 virgins

I won't argue with you on that one! The only other bone of contention I'd have to pick is the taxpayer would once again have to foot the bill to keep these individuals incarcerated. Old Sparky is much more cost effective since the going rate in Texas is approx. $35,000 per year per inmate. Multiply that x 250 assuming they are found guilty and you get $8,750,000 cumulatively per anum. Thats a pretty penny in my book. Maybe Obama's Redistribution of Wealth will free up some cash to baby-sit these detainees.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Hostile0311

[/COLOR]

I won't argue with you on that one! The only other bone of contention I'd have to pick is the taxpayer would once again have to foot the bill to keep these individuals incarcerated. Old Sparky is much more cost effective since the going rate in Texas is approx. $35,000 per year per inmate. Multiply that x 250 assuming they are found guilty and you get $8,750,000 cumulatively per anum. Thats a pretty penny in my book. Maybe Obama's Redistribution of Wealth will free up some cash to baby-sit these detainees.

These are not car thieves or crack dealers, they are lying, murdering, propagandists and recruiters for a cause. They will not be rehabilitated, of rendered less dangerous by incarceration for a given period of time. They are not soldiers, they are not holy warriors, they are not mujihadeen, they are vermin who kill and hide behind women and children while disguised in civilian clothing. They are not entitled to any rights or protections if apprehended as terrorists. IMHO, this makes them saboteurs who can be summarily executed.

Given the gang activity rampant at our institutions, I hardly think we want to see these terrorist scum given the opportunity to proselytize to a captive audience and to pass on their evil, corrosive philosophy and training to their fellow inmates. Most of these pigs have already murdered US or allies in the name of their god.

IMHO, we should dump them into pens of hungry feral hogs, or have the HNs take custody and execute them immediately upon arrival as part of their repatriation. Instead, they will be released after a tropical vacation to attack us again. And this is okay with the Dims.

I guess I just don't get it, and never will.

Color me an unrepentant, unreconstructed, uncivilized sinner.

TR