Competition Shooting

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by JGarcia

That's what I was afraid of, (speed, over accuracy).

That's fine if they want to make it a speed thing, as long as they make the targets smaller, such as using a bowling pin instead of a full silhouette.

Shooting that fast and getting "hits" on a silhouette doesn't impress me, especially when dressed for a day on the driving range.

Ah, the oft-used "but those fast shooters aren't accurate" argument.

Go to a match and you'll see that the top shooters are both much faster and more accurate than you are.

(The USPSA paper targets have zones and penalties for not hitting the A zone, which measures less than 11" by 6" in the body and 4" by 2" in the head. The steel targets are usually poppers or plates and almost always smaller than E-type silhouettes. Even if you say that 11" x 6" is too big, then realize those shooters could slow down a fraction and centerpunch the target. The only reason they don't shoot with that sort of accuracy is not because they aren't capable of it but because the rules don't reward it.)

And about the golf course attire: if so inclined, all but the most overweight and infirmed of them could kit up and still beat you six ways to Sunday using an M9.

Originally Posted by JGarcia

Is there such a match that has the competitors get in full kit, use small and fleeting targets, production firearms - no mods, or better yet; issue firearms only (M9, M11, etc.,)? That is something realistic, and a match I'd be very interested in participating in. Maybe it's too difficult for most people. IDK.

The shooter could start out, strapped into a hummvee roll over drill mock up, in full kit. Start the timer when the hummvee completes its roll over, after the fire suppression system kicks on. The shooter has to exit the vehicle (he is strapped in, upside down) and then engage three targets and then move to along a 50M route to another humvee (with some engagements enroute) where he links up with the other crew and the time ends, that could be one stage. Score is based on time and hits. All targets are small, bowling pins and 1/4 silhouettes (head and shoulders), and/or partial targets.

That'd be a kick.

It sounds kind of cool, but not only would it be a logistical nightmare and prohibitively expensive to stage, I'd personaly be leery of all of the weirdos and airsofters that would show up at a match like the one you propose. That's just one reason I prefer to keep it a game of shooting and not an attempt to learn tactics or play army.

You are free, however, to shoot a stock Berreta out of a duty holster at any USPSA match. That's sort of what I do. (Well, it's a Blade Tec holster and the pistol isn't completely stock, but it's still a Production class Berreta shooting Winchester white box. )

Give it a try. You probably already have all the gear you need for USPSA already. Good luck.

[kawika]

So does anyone in the fayetteville shoot IDPA? If so send me a pm or something id love to come to one and watch and more than likely shoot.

I for one would like to see more "pistol experts" in the army shoot faster. Its one thing we always work on thats for sure. There are so many people who think that the highlight of army pistol marksmanship is shooting one 15 round clip at a 50m target in 5 minutes. Oh look I beat you, case of beer! Faster is usually better in real life, long as you hit the person

[frostfire]

IMHOO, serious competition shooters learn/got drilled from early on that "speed is economy of motion." What I found very helpful from competition shooting is all these drills they came up with such as the el presidente. They help to take the basics to the next level so that when all hell break loose, you have total confidence in your marksmanship and that's one less thing to worry about. OTOH, I never like the idea of special (low recoil) loads that some use: Those 1 inch double-tap/hammer sure looks impressive, let's try it again with regular load.

FWIW, one of the folks who helped me got started with HP is currently a DM instructor at Benning. Punching paper may not be much even at 600 yds, but to achieve 800 of 10's and x's requires total mastery of the equipments, the basics, the conditions, and of course, the mind. HP match is boring as heck from from a spectator's perspective, but shooting is not a spectator sport.

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by kawika

So does anyone in the fayetteville shoot IDPA? If so send me a pm or something id love to come to one and watch and more than likely shoot.

I'm not in the Fayetteville area now but I'm sending you a PM with the contact info of the person that can help you out.

[longrange1947]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, I have found that a pistol is what you use to fight your way to real weapon.

Should bring some good ones out!

[JGarcia]

I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.

MTC also runs the Wilson Match and the Armed Forces Skill at Arms match here at Camp Robinson, matches closed to the Airsofters and any other civilians. This is my first year on staff, I have not participated in the Wilson or AFSAM "sustainment exercises" yet. But I believe all units are welcome to participate. Here is the official publication for the last one. http://www.arguard.org/mtu/Publicati...FSAM%20OMP.pdf

All weapons and ammunition must be issue without modification, all optics must be issue. They do come around and check and make sure you have a plain jane issue trigger.

Here is our website. http://www.arguard.org/mtu/WPW.htm Take a look at the match results in the right pane. We get a pretty good showing of international military units. MTC also runs the inter service sniper training exercise, I think some fellas from 5th group won this year, it concluded a couple of weeks ago while we were running an SDM so I didn't get all the details.

All of our "Sustainment Exercises" (matches) are closed to civilians, but Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are welcome to come and participate. AMU doesn't though, but the Marine Corps shooting team does. Many NATO countries send teams to compete in the AFSAM as well.

There are Hummvee rollover mockups, with the Hummer cab mounted on frame which allows it to rotate simulating a rollover. We have one here, it MIGHT, be used next year in such a manner as described earlier. Also the uniform of the course might be full kit next year. We'll see.

Get a team and come on down. Validate your training.

[HOLLiS]

It would have been great to have threads like this when I started. Best information was from fellow shooters. Also I found the book, Zen Archery, to be helpful. As LR said, shooting should be fun. IMHO, it is more a mental exercise than a physical one. One of the examples in the book, Zen Archery was about this. It commented that when one is shooting for fun, the target is easy to hit, as the stakes rose so did the misses. This also seem to support a article I read when women started in 1000M bench shoots. Women started to win, not that they were shooting better, but some of the men's scores where dropping. The author contributed that to loss of concentration on the part of the men. In stead of concentrating on the target, they where also thinking about being out shot by "a women".

I think people complete for all sorts of reasons. Competition can be a lot of fun or a PIA, depends on who one is shooting with.

This thread has been a great read and very enjoyable.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Not Always but many days. shooting long range is like Zen. I can feel myself being able reach and put a finger on the target through the scope. Everything is so much clearer on those days. Blitzzz

[APLP]

Originally Posted by JGarcia

I am an instructor at the Nat'l Guard Marksmanship Training Center; on the Squad Designated Marksman Course staff. I think I can shoot okay.

With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.

Standby.....

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by kawika

So I need a new hobby. Been looking at doing something shooting related when I get home. Anyone in the area do IDPA or USPSA shooting? Not looking to get to serious, don't have the time for that. I do reload though so ammo isn't a problem. From searching the internet it looks like Raleigh/Charolette are where most of the matches are. Looking for something low key that would be fun to do on the weekends. Will more than likely use my existing guns and not buy any new ones(M&P 45, Glock 34, H&K .40 USP).

responding to the original poster, here's a good comparison of IDPA and USPSA/IPSC:
(copy and paste) craigcentral.com/idpaipsc.asp

IMHOO, USPSA gets really expensive quicker than IDPA, and getting/maintaining the classification is harder because the standard is based on top performance, which can change. Have you looked into local "action pistol" matches? A match that is neither IDPA or USPSA (so it's fun, low key, and nothing serious), but there are still divisions so race guns won't compete against revolver.

[JGarcia]

Originally Posted by APLP

With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.

Standby.....

Thanks for the challenge, I'll take a look at their course of fire in the "production" class. But something tells me that with IPSC, even production and limited classes are "GAMED" in some way. Still there might be some fun to be had.

If I were king of the world I would prefer a match where military shooter could compete against military shooter in realistic scenarios; as realistic as practically possible.

From what limited information I have on the NGB Wilson matches, these come close. I hope that in the future the Wilson & AFSAM matches will become more realistic; that is more phyiscally demanding with small fleeting and obscured targets and in full kit.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by APLP

With all due respect, I would wager a case of beer, that you would have a hard time qualifiying as a mid level "C" class IPSC shooter in the "production, or limited class". Not a slam on you, but you won't know what you don't know until give it a try.

Standby.....

And I bet most "game" shooters would have a hard time fending off 2-3 hundred pissed off and determined taliban with what they use in these games.

We don't teach the game mindset in the military, we teach and employ TTP's that work against live, angry, blood-thirsty targets.

Team Sergeant

[Sten]

Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .

I use matches as a chance for me to shoot from all kinds of novel (to me) positions and situations while I am under some stress. Is it perfect practice? No, but it is better then just punching paper or doing nothing (plus it is really fun).

I was advised to not get caught up in the "gamesmanship" and set some personal goals. So I ignore all the games, I kind of laugh to myself at the fracking crazy unlimited guns and game specific equipment. I shoot a production gun out of my daily carry holster, sure I don't win but I don't care, it is just fun.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Sten

Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .

Hmm, now you have me thinking. With improved eyesight and more fast twitch muscle fibers, I could be a contender!

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Sten

Competition shooting can just be fun too. IMHO competition shooting is a much better hobby then home genetics research .

I use matches as a chance for me to shoot from all kinds of novel (to me) positions and situations while I am under some stress. Is it perfect practice? No, but it is better then just punching paper or doing nothing (plus it is really fun).

I was advised to not get caught up in the "gamesmanship" and set some personal goals. So I ignore all the games, I kind of laugh to myself at the fracking crazy unlimited guns and game specific equipment. I shoot a production gun out of my daily carry holster, sure I don't win but I don't care, it is just fun.

Great outlook, Sten. If you go to a match, regardless of whether its IDPA, IPSC or WXYZ, shoot the way you want (within safety and game rules), get the trigger time and have fun. If you fail to get classified, or you come in dead last, but get shooting experience under time and accuracy stressors, then the only thing that really suffers is your ego.

If your goal is to become a better shooter, and you improve relative to your own performance (vice everybody else's playing "the game"), then the gamesmanship factor becomes immaterial.