Rifle Scope Needed - Page 2

**The Reaper** · 12-17-2008, 12:46

I am sure he does not need my support, but I agree with Peregrino.

If you stack these out, the price list looks as follows, and only you can decide the relative value provided, especially since this is not a rifle you are currently betting lives on.

Most to least expensive, my personal observations, for comparable products and zoom ranges:

S&B $2-3K
Zeiss $1.5-2.5K
US Optics $1.5-2.5K
Nightforce $1-1.5K
Leupold $700-1200
Nikon $600-1000
Bushnell, etc. under $600
etc.

I would say that IMHO, you are likely never going to notice the difference between the S&B and the Nightforce in normal daylight shooting at the ranges you will realistically employ a .308.

You might not notice the difference between the Nightforce and the Leupold, if the ranges are shorter and the lighting is good. You will notice the extra zoom range.

Lenses are bought and sold globally for specific characteristics of the glass. Scopes are assembled in specific locations, but the glass is almost always a mixed bag of makers and national origins. More money does, to a large degree, get you better optics. The real question is whether it provides an advantage you can take advantage of. The Leupolds are more than adequate for the 700P. The Nightforce is an upgrade to a rifle that if you have it "built", you will probably never exceed the capability of in your use, unless you go into a benchrest career.

I did not like the old Leatherwoods, and consider anything less than the Leupold to be short on durability and quality. For a guy who is risking nothing but a typical deer kill, the lesser optics like the Bushnell and below are more than adequate, assuming that you test and zero them before taking them to the woods.

The Leupold M3s do give you the added advantage of a BDC that you can dial the range in on, though I do not believe that they make the M3 in the 4-14.5x.

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers, etc., have shot the S&Bs, Zeiss, and Swarovskis, and I personally think the sweet spot for value lies between the Leupold L/R T and the Nightforce.

The comments on the mounts are spot on as well. Larue or Badger will not let you down. The others, well, some are good and some are bad, and some brands can be both, depending on the day it was made. You can order them and have them installed locally, or call a good smith like George at G&A and have them mount the optic, install the base and rings, do a trigger job, a big bolt knob, and a basic accuracy package. Peregrino and I have a local gunsmith who is very talented as well.

My basic 700 PSS holds .5 moa with good ammo and nothing done beyond stock but a trigger job. Rumor was, that the first PSSes were shipped with Mike Rock 5R barrels. You/your designated instructor will need to shoot yours after set up to see how it holds, a high-end barrel may or may not be needed to extract maximum accuracy. My .300 WM 700 PSS would not hold 1.5 MOA till I had it worked on, even now, with a recut factory barrel, it is barely a sub-MOA gun. The .308 is a tack driver.

Then we can start a new thread on .308 ammo to feed your new baby. And maybe rifle cases, cleaning gear, spotting scopes, rangefinders, and other assorted accessories that always seem to be needed (and which will further lighten your wallet).

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

HOLLiS · 12-17-2008, 13:02

Thanks for the good read. May I throw out the name, Burris. I have several full field and a black diamond. I also have and had had several Leupolds.

Any opinions on the Burris'. At night they seem brighter than the Leupolds that I had (maybe I just didn't have a high enough quality Leupold).

**Roguish Lawyer** · 12-17-2008, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I am sure he does not need my support, but I agree with Peregrino.

If you stack these out, the price list looks as follows, and only you can decide the relative value provided, especially since this is not a rifle you are currently betting lives on.

Most to least expensive, my personal observations, for comparable products and zoom ranges:

S&B $2-3K
Zeiss $1.5-2.5K
US Optics $1.5-2.5K
Nightforce $1-1.5K
Leupold $700-1200
Nikon $600-1000
Bushnell, etc. under $600
etc.

I would say that IMHO, you are likely never going to notice the difference between the S&B and the Nightforce in normal daylight shooting at the ranges you will realistically employ a .308.

You might not notice the difference between the Nightforce and the Leupold, if the ranges are shorter and the lighting is good. You will notice the extra zoom range.

Lenses are bought and sold globally for specific characteristics of the glass. Scopes are assembled in specific locations, but the glass is almost always a mixed bag of makers and national origins. More money does, to a large degree, get you better optics. The real question is whether it provides an advantage you can take advantage of. The Leupolds are more than adequate for the 700P. The Nightforce is an upgrade to a rifle that if you have it "built", you will probably never exceed the capability of in your use, unless you go into a benchrest career.

I did not like the old Leatherwoods, and consider anything less than the Leupold to be short on durability and quality. For a guy who is risking nothing but a typical deer kill, the lesser optics like the Bushnell and below are more than adequate, assuming that you test and zero them before taking them to the woods.

The Leupold M3s do give you the added advantage of a BDC that you can dial the range in on, though I do not believe that they make the M3 in the 4-14.5x.

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers, etc., have shot the S&Bs, Zeiss, and Swarovskis, and I personally think the sweet spot for value lies between the Leupold L/R T and the Nightforce.

The comments on the mounts are spot on as well. Larue or Badger will not let you down. The others, well, some are good and some are bad, and some brands can be both, depending on the day it was made. You can order them and have them installed locally, or call a good smith like George at G&A and have them mount the optic, install the base and rings, do a trigger job, a big bolt knob, and a basic accuracy package. Peregrino and I have a local gunsmith who is very talented as well.

My basic 700 PSS holds .5 moa with good ammo and nothing done beyond stock but a trigger job. Rumor was, that the first PSSes were shipped with Mike Rock 5R barrels. You/your designated instructor will need to shoot yours after set up to see how it holds, a high-end barrel may or may not be needed to extract maximum accuracy. My .300 WM 700 PSS would not hold 1.5 MOA till I had it worked on, even now, with a recut factory barrel, it is barely a sub-MOA gun. The .308 is a tack driver.

Then we can start a new thread on .308 ammo to feed your new baby. And maybe rifle cases, cleaning gear, spotting scopes, rangefinders, and other assorted accessories that always seem to be needed (and which will further lighten your wallet).

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Typically I just do what TR tells me to do, and for good reason. But let me dare to do the following:

LR1947 and Gene Econ, do you agree with TR's comments?

AngelsSix · 12-17-2008, 19:14

I personally have found TR's training, advice and judgement to be very sound. I actually teach CCH here and gladly pass on what he has taught me to my new students. Speaking of which, in the Spring I am heading out there for some well-earned rest and some training, so you had better start loading rounds now, Boss!!!

As far as the scopes go, I do not have any real experience with them, but have had experience with the folks that use them. It does indeed depend on what you will be using it for. Many of the guys have more than one scope for just that reason. I always go with the advice that you will have to decide on what will work for you. I have heard some awesome things about S&B, but they cost a few dimes. I personally would start with something less expensive and decide if I needed something better. But then again, I am only a student, so I am perpetually broke.

**Team Sergeant** · 12-17-2008, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

I personally have found TR's training, advice and judgement to be very sound. I actually teach CCH here and gladly pass on what he has taught me to my new students. Speaking of which, in the Spring I am heading out there for some well-earned rest and some training, so you had better start loading rounds now, Boss!!!

(

A6, let me know if you want some time behind a scope.

**Peregrino** · 12-17-2008, 20:55

A6 - If you want rifle time Saturday (1000 until), send me a PM. Weather permitting we're doing 600 and 1000 (I'm not into miserable so if the sunshine is liquid, I'm not playing).

frostfire · 12-17-2008, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinister

You'll want a sloped scope base (Badger, Near, or Nightforce) if you want to go all the way to 1,000 yards with a 7.62mm.

Quoted for truth. Went to Benning F-class once without a sloped base. Ended up holding 3 mil high just to touch the target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

The choice is up to you, I own some Nightforce 3.5-15xs, 5.5-22xs, Leupold Vari-X IIIs, L/RTs, M/RTs, M1s, M3s, and Ultras, Trijicons, Nikons, Bushnells, Tasco Super Snipers

Reaper Sir, would you mind sharing your perspective on the good and bad of the Tasco super sniper?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Illuminated reticles and MD vs. TMR are outside the scope of my enthusiasm tonight.

Peregrino, I would like to hear your take on the two. Gene Econ told me the following:
"The mil dot reticle is designed around upper torso targets. When the targets get smaller, the error gets increased in range estimation and holds. The TMR is a better choice as the tick marks give more precision in aiming. Also, the reticule pattern has tick marks on the outside of the reticle that are .1 MIL I believe so you have a more precise scale to use in your range estimation on small targets."

Sorry for the hijack RL. Not too often the masters pour their brains out on what I'm very passionate about: long range shooting. Nothing like seeing steel moves, hearing the hit confirmation, then the actual "ping" after a second or so.Here are some resources to flatten the learning curve (or in my case it helps to spend some time in study/simulation before range time). Hope you find them helpful.
All copy and paste
snipercountry.com/Articles/RealTruthAboutMilDots.asp by none other than Rick B/Longrange1947
shooterready.com/mildot.html
demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting

**Roguish Lawyer** · 12-17-2008, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostfire

Sorry for the hijack RL.

No worries, the purpose of this thread is to discuss scopes -- it's not just about my needs.

longrange1947 · 12-18-2008, 08:58

RL - Yes agree with TR on the scopes. I threw the S&B out there as you said you were price insensitive and figured you could go for the best. There are many lower cost products out there that will do you well. From Night Force higher end to Burris lower end. Most now have the ability to play in the BDC range with a bit of tape and a fine point pen.

The mil Dot scope is a scope used to range (Back up, not primary ranging device) hold for winds when they get real squirrelly on the range tactical environment the primary wind compensation device, holds for movers, and rapid correction for change in target or range. With some practice, accuracy for miling for range can be in the .05 range, our students do it all the time as do the instructors. Other reticles are merely a mid of the mil dot, some are great some are not as good. I for one do not like the illuminated reticles as it makes the reticle too thick and most of the time we shoot with NVDs. The illuminated reticle can and will wash out the target if care is not taken. Try off set vision and the reticle and target will come into view for the shot in lowered illumination. We have shot until after midnight with the day scopes and non illuminated reticles to 600 meters on a KD range. Unk distance is problem due to target recognition and blending in to the background. Over all the mil dot or the TMR is a tactical reticle and not usually used on the target range.

My two cents. and waiting for incommin...

**The Reaper** · 12-18-2008, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostfire

Reaper Sir, would you mind sharing your perspective on the good and bad of the Tasco super sniper?

It is a great scope for what it costs.

Not necessarily a great scope though.

Durable, but the glass and the coatings are not particularly good.

TR

bravo22b · 12-18-2008, 10:20

I will cautiously venture my opinion on the Tasco Super Sniper 10x42. I've had one on my .308 Remington 700 PSS for the past ten years or so, while waiting to be able to afford something better.

Firing Federal Gold Medal match ammo, I have consistently been able to shoot sub-MOA groups at up to 300 yards (the longest public rifle range in my area), so either the scope and rifle combination are capable of that accuracy, or I am just a lucky shot. Therefore, I have no complaints regarding the accuracy potential and repeatability of the scope.

My biggest complaint, and the reason why I will definitely trade up to a better scope, is the 1/4 MOA adjustments, and the action of the turret knobs themselves. The "click" that should accompany each increment of adjustment is totally unable to be felt, and is only audible in near complete silence, a condition not generally found while shooting. I have read that this is due to the O-rings that waterproof the knobs, and that it has been fixed on newer scopes, but I have no experience to back this up. YMMV.

As has been pointed out by others far more experienced than I, the 1/4 MOA adjustments are a hassle, and probably too fine an adjustment for tactical use when targets may have to be engaged at different ranges. Combined with the poor action of the turret knobs, it makes dialing in correct elevation for range far more difficult and time-consuming than it should be.

All that said, I'm not sorry I bought it for my first mil-dot scope, but I want something better. Anyone want to buy a used Tasco?

**Peregrino** · 12-18-2008, 10:44

FF - LR1947 and GE have more experience with MILDOT than I do. LR's last post will save me a lot of typing. I agree with GE about the TMR (and similar) but my reasoning is tangental. It's a training issue - as LR says MD is a back-up ranging device. It requires training and practice to maintain proficiency. I'm barely competent, even with a MILDOT Master (thanks for the suggestion/confirmation LR) because I don't spend enough time ranging unknown distance to maintain my skills (and my eyes are getting older

). (That's why I like LRFs.) IMHO the TMRs are easier to use for holdovers while still having a ranging capability. Most people never use the MILDOT feature for it's intended function anyway. WHAT FOLLOWS IS PERSONAL OPINION! I think holdover is easier to train on the TMR and requires less practice to maintain. If I need to explain longer range shooting to a novice, I rarely bother to discuss MILDOT ranging. Think of it as an "economy of effort" measure. It means less experienced or less "practiced" shooters can function at a DMR level with less resource investment.

I'm getting ready to demote my Super Sniper to one of my M1As. It's perfectly adequate on that platform; certainly one of the best "values" I've gotten in optics, but it's not on par with Leupold and competitors. FWIW.

Sinister · 12-18-2008, 11:17

I have a number of Leupold M3LRs (including one on a 700VS I use for hunting) and I'd recommend it for an all-around scope if you're not planning on abusing it. Jury's still out on how durable and how well it'll hold up on top of an AR-10T.

I have seen only one Leupold 4.5-16 (I think was the power range) with M3 turrets.

Looking through the M3LR (especially at dusk) after looking through Swarovski EL binos or Kowa ED glass spotting scopes all day the Leupold's glass looks almost yellow compared to really good glass.

The Nightforce's "Hollow" mil-dots are very handy. I've not used the TMR reticle.

We had LOTs of adjustment backlash problems with Leupold M1s at the Army Marksmanship Unit (for 1,000 yard competition), and the only M3LRs left are on student rifles. We'd dial in elevation or windage changes and get nothing. Dial in a second correction and get a huge jump.

Nightforce and Schmidt Bender both (quietly) offer military discounts.

Blitzzz (RIP) · 12-18-2008, 19:03

Not that anyone seems to care but 24 of the new Leatherwood M-1200s were purchased by a unit in the 3d BDE of the 101st for a reduced price and given a Life time warranty to boot.
I heard the comments about the Leatherwoods on this sight but I assure you the new ones are very fine and thus far dependable, as they were deployed to JRTC and then to Iraq and are still being used and the troops love them.
TS, the cams ride on a teflon ball and will not wear as the old ones did.
They've been tested with 50 cal rifles without problems.
They are the primary ranging device unlike the mildot and there is no unknown distance because you range thru the scope and it automaticlly elevates the cross hairs. just range and shoot nothing could be simpler Blitzzz

**Roguish Lawyer** · 12-18-2008, 20:26

Boy, I thought I was a reasonably smart guy until I tried to read this. Maybe this is why I didn't go to medical school . . .

OK, time to try again . . .