11-21-2007, 14:04
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#1
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lone Star
Posts: 2,153
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you loot, I shoot
saw these signs in New Orleans, but Joe Horn put this to practice in Texas. AM and TR discussed this exact scenario in a different thread.
Crime doesn't pay vs. trigger-happy.
LE folks & lawyers, what's your take?
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=5538780
(11/15/07 - KTRK/PASADENA, TX) - A dramatic 911 call from the Pasadena man who allegedly shot and killed two men accused of burglarizing his neighbor has been released. The dispatcher tried to talk him out of it.
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At about 2pm Wednesday, Joe Horn called 911 from inside his Pasadena home. He says he saw two men break into his neighbor's house. Horn tells police that he is armed with a shotgun.
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FULL 911 AUDIO
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"Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will ya? I ain't gonna let them go, I'm gonna be honest with ya," said Horn on the 911 call. "I'm not gonna let them go. I'm not gonna let them get away with this (expletive)."
Horn and the dispatcher spent more than seven minutes on the phone, much of that with the dispatcher trying to convince Horn not to go outside.
"I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot," said Horn.
"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" responded the dispatcher. "It's not worth shooting someone over this."
"I don't want to, but if I go out there to see what the hell is going on, what choice do I have?" said Horn.
"I don't want you to go out there. I asked if you could see anything out there," said the dispatcher.
Horn tells the dispatcher that he understands his rights and even makes reference to the September 1 expansion that gives homeowners greater protection from prosecution should they choose to confront someone breaking into their home.
Before he can be convinced otherwise, Horn tells police he sees the burglars coming out of his house.
"He's coming out of the window right now," said Horn to the 911 dispatcher. "I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window."
"Don't, don't , don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?" said the dispatcher.
"(Expletive), they just stole something," said Horn to the dispatcher. "I'm sorry. I ain't gonna let them get away with this. They got a bag of something. I'm doing it."
The dispatcher can't stop Horn, who takes the phone with him as he goes outside.
"Move, you're dead," Horn, who took the phone outside with him, could be heard saying to the suspects.
Then three gunshots could be heard.
Horn admits later on the 911 call that he did, in fact, fire those shots. The names of the two men shot have not yet been released pending identification and notification of their next of kin. Horn has not been arrested or charged with any crime. A police investigation is still underway. This case likely will end up in the hands of a Harris County grand jury.
__________________
"we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope" Rom. 5:3-4
"So we can suffer, and in suffering we know who we are" David Goggins
"Aide-toi, Dieu t'aidera " Jehanne, la Pucelle
Der, der Geld verliert, verliert einiges;
Der, der einen Freund verliert, verliert viel mehr;
Der, der das Vertrauen verliert, verliert alles.
INDNJC
Last edited by frostfire; 11-21-2007 at 14:15.
Reason: adding information
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frostfire is offline
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11-21-2007, 14:18
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#2
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SF Candidate
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On the Front Range, CO
Posts: 4
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Awesome
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/5309288.html
I don't think he did anything wrong except saying he was going to kill them before he actually did.
Good ol' Texas!
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"If you don't live for something, you will die for nothing."
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TtownBeatdown is offline
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11-21-2007, 14:34
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#3
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: OK. Thanking Our Brave Soldiers
Posts: 3,614
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Horms actions heroic
Just read the article. Outstanding IMHO.
This guy could be my neighbor anyday.
Americans have the right to defend themselves, and those around them.
Holly
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echoes is offline
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11-21-2007, 14:42
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#4
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,816
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For defense purposes, he sure made a lot of statements that could be used against himself.
Since the benefit goes to the person employing lethal force if they were defending themselves or their property, I think he should have been less macho and more fearful in his statements. In the transcript, he sounds eager to go out of his way shoot them.
If you call 911, the call is going to be recorded and every word you say is going to be analyzed. There is no point in talking to the dispatcher after reporting the location and nature of the crime, descriptions of the perps and yourself, that you are armed, concerned for your safety, and prepared to defend yourself.
If he had shouted something more along the line of "Oh my God, please don't hurt me!" before firing, and forensics showed that they were moving towards him when he fired, he would in all likelihood not be charged or sent before a grand jury in this jurisdiction. As it is now, he sounded eager to shoot, and is going to have to account for his actions in court. Even if he is acquitted, there will be significant legal costs to defend himself.
Not saying that they didn't deserve it, or that the shooting was not justified. Just pointing out that this does not help those who support the castle doctrine, and that your words can come back to hurt you.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-21-2007, 14:56
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#5
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Guest
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Yep, they sure do! They sting very badly. Why do you think while watching "COPS" at 1900hrs. EST on Court TV that when an officer Tasers somebody he is constantly yelling orders at the subject to comply or else? Now having Tasered people myself, what is really running through my mind while screaming commands is I am laughing my butt off. But that will never come out on the witness stand. 
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11-21-2007, 15:04
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Lot of turning away from the social contract lately...
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-21-2007, 15:54
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NC for now
Posts: 2,418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Lot of turning away from the social contract lately...
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Como?
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Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
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kgoerz is offline
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11-21-2007, 17:02
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#8
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: OK. Thanking Our Brave Soldiers
Posts: 3,614
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Question Sir
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
For defense purposes, he sure made a lot of statements that could be used against himself.
Since the benefit goes to the person employing lethal force if they were defending themselves or their property, I think he should have been less macho and more fearful in his statements. In the transcript, he sounds eager to go out of his way shoot them.
If you call 911, the call is going to be recorded and every word you say is going to be analyzed. There is no point in talking to the dispatcher after reporting the location and nature of the crime, descriptions of the perps and yourself, that you are armed, concerned for your safety, and prepared to defend yourself.
If he had shouted something more along the line of "Oh my God, please don't hurt me!" before firing, and forensics showed that they were moving towards him when he fired, he would in all likelihood not be charged or sent before a grand jury in this jurisdiction. As it is now, he sounded eager to shoot, and is going to have to account for his actions in court. Even if he is acquitted, there will be significant legal costs to defend himself.
Not saying that they didn't deserve it, or that the shooting was not justified. Just pointing out that this does not help those who support the castle doctrine, and that your words can come back to hurt you.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
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Greetings Sir.
Wanted to ask a question, and hope it is okay?
Suppose this is a learning tool...If confronted with similar situation, what would be the appropriate course of action? Variables being neighbor is not at home, elderly, etc...(Personally, if the situation were mine...I'd do the same thing.) But, is it the wrong response? 
Holly
Last edited by echoes; 11-21-2007 at 17:05.
Reason: smile-y
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echoes is offline
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11-21-2007, 17:37
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#9
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 365
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Horn
When a police dispatcher tells you to do something, you do it! No questions asked. They should be treated just like a uniformed officer on the scene. I have worked with various dispatch centers during my 10 years on our VFD and they are outstanding the huge majority of the time. These guys were slime, no question. But that is not a capital offense. How do you know they didn't stick their hands in the air and surrender? When the police are near at hand they are the ones trained to handle these situations, not crazy old farts with a shotgun. I live in Harris County.
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Dad is offline
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11-21-2007, 17:44
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#10
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,816
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Hmm.
Where I came from, and I was a dispatcher for several years, I was not sworn and could no more order people to comply than any other stranger on the phone.
What is their authority based on?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-21-2007, 17:55
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#11
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 365
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Authority
Depends where you are in the county. I'll admit, I am not certain about Pasadena. In Houston, the FD handles calls. Where I live, they ask the nature of the emergency and then either transfer you to the Fire/EMS dispatch or the appropriate law enforcement agency.
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Dad is offline
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11-22-2007, 09:12
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#12
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In transit
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgoerz
Como?
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I know that Wikipedia doesn't get the love around here that it appears to do elsewhere, but this is a pretty good intro to the social contract.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract
HTH
Books
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This is a dynamic business that is impacted by continuously changing variables complicated by human dimensions that are both unpredictable and fickle.
- Jack Moroney
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Books is offline
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11-22-2007, 09:25
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Greality, CO
Posts: 237
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I can't speak for Texas, but dispatchers in Colorado could just as easily be the people who call you during dinner and ask if you have a few minutes to fill out a survey. That being said....most are well trained and do a hell of a job.... a thankless job at that. Several of our Fire dispatchers are top notch. Calm, anticipate needs, communicate threats (and BS) quickly and efficently. They carry no authority though, and if I had a dispatcher on the phone while I watched someone ransacking my own house, I think I would have to hang up before I went and communicated my recorded intent to do bodily harm to another human being (in this instance I use the term HB very loosely).
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All men die .....not all men truly live.
Doug 
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Firebeef is offline
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11-22-2007, 09:44
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Books
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Not bad.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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11-22-2007, 10:41
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#15
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Area Commander
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cochise Co., AZ
Posts: 6,200
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An Army buddy of mine was selling a pickup in Pasadena, TX back in 1991. The prospective buyers killed him and stole the truck. They we never caught and the truck was never recovered.
I've listened to the tape of this incident several times and the dispatcher never told Mr. Horn that the police were on the way. If he'd known that the cops were, say, two blocks away, he might not have engaged the scum.
Pat
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PSM is offline
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