The spec ops stretch

[x SF med]

Col Jack, TR -
You both beat me to the punch, c'est domage. I agree with your assessments, and would like to add some other comments:

The SF community is proud of the title "Quiet Professional", a screaming rock star ad campaign is the antithesis of the image we prefer to project. As specialized generalists we have to have more on the ball than any other force out there - medics can shoot and make commo; commo men can shoot and give an IV, weapons men can set demo and give IVs; demo men can make commo and collect intelligence - and each of the 12 men on a Team brings some other piece to the others due to the nature of each man's background. An SFOD-A is a force multiplier, as well as a force unto itself (when need be), 12 men who can create an army out of farmers; destroy an already trained army through harrassment and interdiction; gather intelligence, quietly; or rebuild areas of a country ravaged by war. We are teachers, diplomats, construction workers, health care providers, sanitation engineers, and above all else US Army soldiers. I would rather serve on a short Team with fully qualified, mature men than on an overstrength team of rock star, glory seeking teenagers with more balls than brains. Notice the use of capitalization for Team vs team - QPs will understand why I chose that distinction, give me a Team. Let the rockstars go to the SEALs or the Rangers, let the men come to SF, many good soldiers have not made it in the Q course and still been great soldiers, Special Forces is different and requires a different type of person - and no test can say what that type is, thus SFAS and the Q - trials by fire, to then go through the biggest trial by fire - your first year on a Team.

I'm not sure anybody that hasn't experienced this really understands what I just put down, but those that have BTDT are smiling a little.

CO Jack, TR - apologies for the rehash of multiple posts throughout the site, for some reason, I felt sorry for tag and decided to spoonfeed him.

[CoLawman]

You are absolutely correct, that is what leadership is all about. Accountability up and down the chain. But it appears that there are very few in the General Officer rank willing to shoulder that burden.

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Well actually isn't that what leadership is all about? It doesn't matter whether it is the SECDEF or the next individual above you in the chain of command. You have an obligation to your mission and your men to stand your ground and confront the issue head on. A Platoon leader who knows that an order is going to get his men killed and does not stand before the Company Commander and state his piece is wrong. If the order stands, then the only other option is to lead the platoon from the front and take the first round. Unfortunately this is not the case because the point of departure here is sacrifice of your career or the sacrifice of the men who are depending on you to do the right thing. People at the decision making level that are driving the show are not going to hear the first shot fired that is going to take out the first troop and it is hard for me to accept that anyone watching the battle unfold on HDTV shot from a drone can feel the agony of the guy on the ground if he did not have the balls to ensure that he did all he could to provide him with the right tools and mix of folks required to do the job. It doesn't take a special kind of person to do that it is expected of any commander who is supposed to look to his troops and his mission but then, for the most part, I will agree with you that it takes a special kind of person that builds his career at the expense of his subordinates regardless of the cost. Let me end this before I get wound up. Rant over.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by CoLawman

You are absolutely correct, that is what leadership is all about. Accountability up and down the chain. But it appears that there are very few in the General Officer rank willing to shoulder that burden.

You can't lay this entirely at the feet of the GOs-see the PM I sent you and if you would like to explore it a little more we can do it back channel.

[SF18C]

Okay I’ll start off with there is no love for Naylor, because I think he will (has) violate OPSEC to write a story, but I think he got this one pretty close to the truth.

The biggest thought on recruiting is SF ODA Team guys are not Rangers, they are not SEALs, they are not black Nomax and Velcro “Operators” SF Teams are a special breed with a very unique mission. You can’t walk off the street and be as 18 Series.

The only way they will get this many SF troops in this short time frame is (in my opinion): Lower the standards or start breeding SF babies in a special Warrior pre-school.

In 2005 the Q Course graduated 791 enlisted SF soldiers, according to Nye, compared with 282 in 2001. The goal from now on is to graduate a minimum of 750 enlisted SF soldiers per year.

SF has always had the challenge of getting the right guys to volunteer…hey if we were a dime a dozen then I don’t think we would be Special! SF candidates must be self-motivate, must have the maturity, and must be committed to the team and mission. Our society doesn’t hold those personalities traits as the gold standard…everyone gets a trophy for trying, everyone is Special – in their own way, it is not PC to tell someone they are not good enough!

A constant refrain of senior uniformed leaders in USASOC and SOCom over the past few years has been that any growth in Special Forces will not come at the expense of the traditionally high standards required to pass the Q Course. But there is widespread concern among SF NCOs, officers and retirees that the USASOC chain of command is already pressuring the cadre to lower standards.

To say they haven’t lowered standards is a complete crock…I’ve talked to too many SWC cadre.

18B…is failing FDC a releasable event?
18C…gotta calculator for the demo exam?
18D…can you name ALL those body parts and pills?
18E…how fast is that Morse code?

Does failing an exam twice get you sent to Korea or does it cause those committee OIC’s to “re-exam” the tests? To see if we are teaching the "right stuff" and validate the “we are not lowering standards” argument.

18X program…great idea on the small contingent of people in our society that would make a great SF team member but hadn’t considered the Army as a career choice. But it seems to me that is not what we are using it for.

In fiscal 2005, 375 of the 791 active-duty enlisted graduates of the Q Course were products of the 18 X-ray program. This year the equivalent numbers were about 280 out of 750, according to Nye, who noted that USASOC had reduced the 18 X-ray recruiting goal for 2006 and again for 2007.

My 2¢ is that if these Senior Commanders and politicians (really one in the same) keep up this mentality in 10 years SF will be an over glorified Ranger BN, in competition with the SEAL teams for mission, money and members!

I think every commander of SF troop or organizations should have the SOF Truths tattooed on his chest in reverse…that way he could review them in the mirror every morning while he shaves!

• Quality is better than quantity.
• Special operations forces cannot be mass produced.
• Competent special operations forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.
• Humans are more important than hardware.

Rant over...good luck SF!

[tag0885]

I apologize I was just thinking out loud of how to allow SF get larger without cutting down on standards. What I was trying to say is that we cannot control who chooses the 18x contract and the majority that do are probably from the ages of 18-24 (typically not the most mature age group). I was saying that by adding a prep program, an SF one and not a SEAL type, pt till you die thats all we care about, would help socialize these boys into men, instilling the beliefs and values SF (people are most easily socialized when they first join the military). You are right SOPC is still there, but it has been so watered down that it has lost some of its effectiveness (which is one reason 18x has turned into a floodgate) Also, the people who do the extra things or show that they are more willing to run, pt, learn languages, or whatever show that they have more dedication which in return generally means more mature. We could thus take these more mature/dedicated people and socialize them into qualified SF candidates, both mentally and physically.

I apologize I don't mean to sound argumentative in any way, just expressing ideas. Thanks for your time.

[SF18C]

Originally Posted by tag0885

I apologize I was just thinking out loud of how to allow SF get larger without cutting down on standards. What I was trying to say is that we cannot control who chooses the 18x contract and the majority that do are probably from the ages of 18-24 (typically not the most mature age group). I was saying that by adding a prep program, an SF one and not a SEAL type, pt till you die thats all we care about, would help socialize these boys into men, instilling the beliefs and values SF (people are most easily socialized when they first join the military). You are right SOPC is still there, but it has been so watered down that it has lost some of its effectiveness (which is one reason 18x has turned into a floodgate) Also, the people who do the extra things or show that they are more willing to run, pt, learn languages, or whatever show that they have more dedication which in return generally means more mature. We could thus take these more mature/dedicated people and socialize them into qualified SF candidates, both mentally and physically.

I apologize I don't mean to sound argumentative in any way, just expressing ideas. Thanks for your time.

Tag...CoL. Moroney and T.R. have alreay sounded the warning bell...a simple Roger out would do.

[tag0885]

sorry was just discussing the topic with you guys...roger out

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by tag0885

I apologize I was just thinking out loud of how to allow SF get larger without cutting down on standards. What I was trying to say is that we cannot control who chooses the 18x contract and the majority that do are probably from the ages of 18-24 (typically not the most mature age group). I was saying that by adding a prep program, an SF one and not a SEAL type, pt till you die thats all we care about, would help socialize these boys into men, instilling the beliefs and values SF (people are most easily socialized when they first join the military). You are right SOPC is still there, but it has been so watered down that it has lost some of its effectiveness (which is one reason 18x has turned into a floodgate) Also, the people who do the extra things or show that they are more willing to run, pt, learn languages, or whatever show that they have more dedication which in return generally means more mature. We could thus take these more mature/dedicated people and socialize them into qualified SF candidates, both mentally and physically.

I apologize I don't mean to sound argumentative in any way, just expressing ideas. Thanks for your time.

tag:

It would appear that you are not getting it. Let me break it down for you.

As I understand it, you have never been to any military training or served a day in SF. For that reason, your opinions are largely irrelevant.

How do you know that SOPC is watered down? Have you been there? We already have a prep program for young men who have yet to go to SOPC to mature and learn, it is called the United States Army.

Are you aware of the meaning of the acronym SA? You might do some research into "situational awareness", something we consider very important, pretty much essential in SF.

Now consider that you are new on this site, have a single digit post count, are very young, and have never served a day in the military, much less completed SF training.

Look at the people who are voicing opinions here. Hmm, what do the words Quiet Professional mean on this site? Better yet, who has the green bold user IDs?

The people you are giving your baseless opinions to have on average, over twenty years of service in SF. In case you missed the background, one is a former Training Group commander, who helped stand up SFAS (SFOT, back then), another has a total of over seven years in SWCS, several spent producing 18Cs. Another is currently a senior NCO on a Team.

What value is added by your comments, and who are you trying to impress here? Would you step into a conversation by several former and current NFL players to tell them how you think the game should be played?

I strongly recommend that you revert to listening silence, seek any answers you might need via the Search button, and limit your posts to wishing people Happy Birthday, unless you have a serious question that cannot be answered elsewhere, or significant expertise in the topic being discussed, like teenage fashion or pop culture.

Good luck.

TR

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by x_sf_med

Col Jack, TR -
You both beat me to the punch, c'est domage. I agree with your assessments, and would like to add some other comments:

The SF community is proud of the title "Quiet Professional", a screaming rock star ad campaign is the antithesis of the image we prefer to project. As specialized generalists we have to have more on the ball than any other force out there - medics can shoot and make commo; commo men can shoot and give an IV, weapons men can set demo and give IVs; demo men can make commo and collect intelligence - and each of the 12 men on a Team brings some other piece to the others due to the nature of each man's background. An SFOD-A is a force multiplier, as well as a force unto itself (when need be), 12 men who can create an army out of farmers; destroy an already trained army through harrassment and interdiction; gather intelligence, quietly; or rebuild areas of a country ravaged by war. We are teachers, diplomats, construction workers, health care providers, sanitation engineers, and above all else US Army soldiers. I would rather serve on a short Team with fully qualified, mature men than on an overstrength team of rock star, glory seeking teenagers with more balls than brains. Notice the use of capitalization for Team vs team - QPs will understand why I chose that distinction, give me a Team. Let the rockstars go to the SEALs or the Rangers, let the men come to SF, many good soldiers have not made it in the Q course and still been great soldiers, Special Forces is different and requires a different type of person - and no test can say what that type is, thus SFAS and the Q - trials by fire, to then go through the biggest trial by fire - your first year on a Team.

I'm not sure anybody that hasn't experienced this really understands what I just put down, but those that have BTDT are smiling a little.

CO Jack, TR - apologies for the rehash of multiple posts throughout the site, for some reason, I felt sorry for tag and decided to spoonfeed him.

At this very moment, I just witnessed yet another "ROCK STAR" ad campaign commercial for the Navy SEALs. GODSMACK playing loudly, and images of frogmen, rubber raiding crafts, HALO, patrolling, and a Maquire/STABO lift off. It's pretty easy to see who that demographic is targeted for.

Looks pretty cool, I think I'll join. do they take 42 year olds ??

X_SF_Med...............what is the quote from Col. Charlie Beckwith ?? "I'd rather go down the river with 7 studs than 100 shitheads" I believe the "QP's" refer to this as "Economy of force" ?

[Guy]

Originally Posted by tag0885

sorry was just discussing the topic with you guys...roger out

The "" don't cut it!

Sign up or STFU!

Stay safe.

[CoLawman]

Roger Out!

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

You can't lay this entirely at the feet of the GOs-see the PM I sent you and if you would like to explore it a little more we can do it back channel.

[MtnGoat]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The only possible way to enlarge the Army Special Forces is to reduce the requirements and to lower our standards. This has been done before to fill our ranks. (We’re still recruiting off the streets, allowing privates to attempt SFAS, I don't know about the officer side of the house. That should enlighten most intelligent individuals we CANNOT currently fill our ranks.)
The only way the US military could enlarge the Army Special Forces is to lower the standards to such a level that anyone just wishing to could earn the Green Beret.

If we dilute the Army Special Forces to the point we no longer intimidate or put the fear of allah into today's global terrorists IMO we will cease to be an extremely effective fighting force. What's worse it will cause high-quality men to leave and good men not to join.

Team Sergeant

Fully agree with this statement above and what SF18C wrote. Great information in Naylor’s story, will anyone listen. Probably not.

I was at SWC and saw the way standards may not have been dropped, but they were... lets say made better. BS

It started outside of SWC with Mother Army and Big TRADOC. No end of course exams and no double test of subjects. Well everyone knows SWC isn't a TRADOC course. That is right to a point, the only ones that are – the AIT courses. So the 18 Series are not AIT, there retraining. So the students are held to a different standard, then a standard TRADOC courses student is. SWC Standards.

Did we water down the standards... that’s for you to answer and your own .02

But everyone that said it’s the leaders fault, IMO, where the finger pointing is needed – your right. Its was mainly the leaders at SWC, most of whom will never go back to an ODA let alone a ODB, that made the changes and pass Students that should have never be on the ODAs that they are on now. At different level they are looking at their OER/NCOER so they don’t say a word. We can evaluate 400 students with 15 instructors, we can control 80 students on a live fire range. The Committee Chief yells but the SWTG command never listens, Get It DONE. Safety?? No problem as long and no one gets hurt or blown up.

I take it this way. When my Nephew went to Ranger School this year, at 7 months in the Army, his unit didn’t teach him how to land NAV. He failed and Ranger school held him back for a week to teach him how to land NAV. He got 4 out 5 points after three Land NAV tests, were before he was only finding 1-3 each test during RANGER School. They kicked him out, go back to FT Lewis and try again. Your young learn how to Land NAV and you can come back later.

When SWC had to produce 450 Green Berets we produced around 650 that year, the same for when we need to produce 650 we graduated something like 780. A year of 750 we did 820. Were there standards?? Yes, but how were they made? I remember a CAL PLACE Exam in 2005 where “we Failed 5 students on their first CAL/PLACE Exam…. That’s to high of a number”(according to BC). Back in 2003 we had class sizes of 35 to 45 with first time failures of 10-15 students. 5 students are too high in just two years?? I don’t have a problem with a calculator and the “DEMO card” – the old “hands-on-test” now that’s a different story.

It goes back to leadership, both at SWC, USASOC, and at the unit level. SWC and USASOC just needs to pull their head out of their 4th point.

Remember that you were taught about 70-80% of your job during the Q-course for you MOS. Medics, Engs, Communicators, don’t know weapons like a Bravo, just like everyone doesn’t know how to prime demo or start an IV. Engineers are never taught that 70% of their time will be doing PBO and supply crap on the team. Medics don’t get taught how to order medical supplies, the 18C will know how, or tell your BN MED section to get it. We all have stories about that and somethings are taught at the team level. But at SWC we must hold a higher Standard. The only standard that was held was the language testing and that standard was RISEN !! Why, because we are the only SOF language speaking force within the DoD as I was told.

I see 18Bs here, a combat zone, that don’t know the difference between SLAP and APL .50 cal round. That’s wrong, I see 18Cs that don’t know DEMO for requesting – Wrong, ETC/ETC/ETC Regular Army E-6 (8 to 16 year in-service time) that can’t think on his own two feet and can’t figure out how to out load for a mission. So what did we use to do… send him to the B-team. Now B-teams are fighting B-teams, so make them an AST. So he doesn’t mess up at your ODA, he messes up five others?? Once again Leadership, but this time at the ODA level.

Are the standards dropped??? – If you think they are well make the change at the level you’re at. Stop complaining about and it and fix the problem where you can. As the Col said, stand up and make your voice heard. The 18X are just like the "bad" guys we would get only 5 year ago, you train them to the standard of your ODA or you send them to the B-team or SIGDET/Arms room.

Rant is over

[82ndtrooper]

secondary post. No need.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

I believe that is known as "Economy of force"

Are you reduced to quoting and replying to yourself now?

TR

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Are you reduced to quoting and replying to yourself now?

TR

I edited to read as a question. "I believe the "QP's" refer to this as economy of force" ?

Your quote does sound as if I'm talking to myself. Roger OUT !!