Pvt. Danny Chen's Death Sparks Push for Military Hazing Review

[calipanda23]

Hello all, did a quick search for a thread already discussing this, but no results.

Whoever's keeping up with this, any thoughts? Just curious what everyone has to say about this. Such a shame to still hear about these kind of incidents. Although I've probably heard all the Asian jokes in the world since BCT, none of it was actually animosity so I didn't mind the jokes which were just good-natured banter.




MANHATTAN — Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand is calling for the Defense Department to review hazing incidents within the armed forces and their ties to racism in the wake of the suspected bullying death of Chinatown soldier Pvt. Danny Chen.
In a letter to Dr. Joanne Rooney, the Acting Undersecretary for Defense for Personnel and Readiness, New York's junior senator called for an accounting of the incidents and any disciplinary and training measures taken to address them.

"While I am pleased to see that the Army is taking this very seriously and has moved to transfer and charge eight soldiers in the case," she wrote. "I am concerned that this case could be emblematic of a broader issue that needs to be closely reviewed and immediately addressed."

Chen was found dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound in Kandahar Province on Oct. 3. Allegations have since been made that Chen had been subjected to ethnic taunts, beaten with rocks and forced to do chin-ups with a mouth full of liquid that he couldn't spit out.
Eight soldiers have since been hit with a variety of charges including involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide and will face trial in Afghanistan.

"As you know, Private Chen’s case is not the first instance of alleged hazing of an Asian American serving in the military," Gillibrand wrote. "It is outrageous that any man or woman serving our country would be subject to discrimination or harassment."
Earlier in the year, Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, based in Hawaii, committed suicide after being subjected to hazing, Gillibrand said. That led to the court-martial of several soldiers in the incident.

"My deepest condolences go out to the Chen family,” Gillibrand said. “There is no room for discrimination and mistreatment in our military. We need to ensure that those responsible for this type of abuse are held accountable and we must take steps to prevent any more tragedies from happening.”


http://www.dnainfo.com/20111224/lowe...-hazing-review

RIP Danny

[Eagle5US]

Gotta blame someone...I guess there is no way in hell it could have been PVT Chen's, or LCPL Lew's fault that that they took their own lives. That they didn't utilize their chain of command, the chaplain, or any other of the dozens or resources that are available.

I don't think it has a damn thing to do with "Asian Jokes", "Black Jokes", "Jew Jokes", "Latino Jokes" or anything else.

The internet generation has never learned to interact with other human beings as children on a playground, as competitors (vs participants) on field of sport, had to fight to preserve their honor by the swing set, or were told "you LOST and therefor you DON'T get a trophy". It has spawned a generation of PUSSIES who do not know how to handle personal conflict or being told that they aren't "winners" just for showing up.

IMHO - THAT is the problem. THAT is why SGTs must ASK PVT Tentpeg to do something or he runs to any number of internal relief valves to register all means of complaints. Heaven help you if you hurt someone's feelings. Stand at ATTN there SFC while I read you your Field Grade ART 15 for "PVT Abuse"

Sucks that they are dead...sure. No ones "fault" but their own.

[18C4V]

People have to be held accountable for thier actions. Having spent time as a TL, SL, and WSL in a rifle infantry platoon as a 11 Bravo and time on the trail as an IET Drill Sergeant. There's corrective training and hazing. I've done both, but I've never beaten my joes with rocks or put liquids in their mouths or push my joes to commit suicide. You figure you got enough to worry in a combat zone to play stupid reindeer games. Now the rest of the NCO's in that unit have to pay the price for the actions taken by those eight soldiers.

[calipanda23]

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

Gotta blame someone...I guess there is no way in hell it could have been PVT Chen's, or LCPL Lew's fault that that they took their own lives. That they didn't utilize their chain of command, the chaplain, or any other of the dozens or resources that are available.

I don't think it has a damn thing to do with "Asian Jokes", "Black Jokes", "Jew Jokes", "Latino Jokes" or anything else.

The internet generation has never learned to interact with other human beings as children on a playground, as competitors (vs participants) on field of sport, had to fight to preserve their honor by the swing set, or were told "you LOST and therefor you DON'T get a trophy". It has spawned a generation of PUSSIES who do not know how to handle personal conflict or being told that they aren't "winners" just for showing up.


Sucks that they are dead...sure. No ones "fault" but their own.

It's true with the internet generation comment..but it's pretty harsh of you to assume its their fault for committing suicide when we still don't know the complete story. It's still only apparently a self-inflicted gunshot. All the Soldiers charged were NCOs plus one 1LT too. Hard to go through your chain of command when the people who are supposed to be guiding you are the ones bullying you like it's high school.

Originally Posted by 18C4V

People have to be held accountable for thier actions. Having spent time as a TL, SL, and WSL in a rifle infantry platoon as a 11 Bravo and time on the trail as an IET Drill Sergeant. There's corrective training and hazing. I've done both, but I've never beaten my joes with rocks or put liquids in their mouths or push my joes to commit suicide. You figure you got enough to worry in a combat zone to play stupid reindeer games. Now the rest of the NCO's in that unit have to pay the price for the actions taken by those eight soldiers.

Agreed.

[LongWire]

Originally Posted by calipanda23

It's true with the internet generation comment..but it's pretty harsh of you to assume its their fault for committing suicide when we still don't know the complete story. It's still only apparently a self-inflicted gunshot. All the Soldiers charged were NCOs plus one 1LT too. Hard to go through your chain of command when the people who are supposed to be guiding you are the ones bullying you like it's high school.

Life's not fair sometimes. I don't condone discrimination of any kind, but all the facts are not in. Was he stoned and hazed? If he was, was it because he was of asian descent or because he was a substandard soldier who highlighted himself in some manner?

One mans corrective discipline is another's hazing. Stoning seems excessive, but the media knows how to deliver the news that sells.

None of us was there to accurately say. I've been on a few different sides of that coin and sometimes none of them make sense, but I will say that suicide is not the answer. Suicide is never the answer.

Did his chain of command fail him? More than likely the NCO's directly involved did. Did the LT? Hard to say, but he is on the blame line so of course he is charged and will more than likely fall. I find it hard to believe that it was racially motivated, but I won't say that it wasn't.

At any rate, we can't bring the dead back and someone is going to pay whether deserved or not. Tragic.........

[Richard]

Sadly, some people just need a sympathetic pat...on the head...with a hammer.

And so it goes...

Richard

[sinjefe]

Originally Posted by LongWire

Stoning seems excessive

Ya think?

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

The internet generation has never learned to interact with other human beings as children on a playground, as competitors (vs participants) on field of sport, had to fight to preserve their honor by the swing set, or were told "you LOST and therefor you DON'T get a trophy". It has spawned a generation of PUSSIES who do not know how to handle personal conflict or being told that they aren't "winners" just for showing up.

IMHO - THAT is the problem.

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

Did they acquit themselves honorably on fields of play and in other forms of competition?

[LongWire]

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

What do you tell them????.......Good Game!!!! Better luck next time, and if they keep competing, then they just may win.

Let's try and remind ourselves that this is the Army that we are talking about and not a knitting club. If you happen to be a part of the spear do we need a warning label that tells us we may get thrown at something, or should we be able to think that one through?

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

I was waiting on your reply...which I knew would come sooner or later. Unfortunately, I don't think your response was quite what I hoped for. To begin with, that generation, may or may not still be in uniform...hard to say since racial and gender discrimination and bias is as much a reflection of where you were raised, who raised you, and who you were raised with.

I'm from the South...I will always practice gender segregation and discrimination...my wife is actually fairly receptive to it as well. Likewise, I try and stay out of her kitchen.

[PRB]

When I grew up in the 50's-early 60's hazing and bullying were very common. I remember getting in fist fights over it and occassionally getting my ass kicked.
I don't remember ever getting parents involved, it was considered 'the way things were' and normal in the animal world.
It was much more 'in your face' than things are today in this PC world except for possibly the internet aspect.
I do not remember any kid ever contimplating or attempting suicide in my first 18 years.
My unscientific response is this.
We were also never 'overvalued' or told how special we were. We were to be seen and not heard unless it was 'important'. You treated adults as priviledged folks who had earned their bones as you had not yet done so.
Many of these 'suiciders' I suspect have gotten smiley faces on the report cards for nothing.
Got to be a part of the team even tho they sucked.
Were really 'special' all their live regardless of performance.
Their perspective is so fucked up that this 'hazing' or bullying drives their little protected selves over the edge.
Childhood is a kind of SFAS for life. Or it should be.

[PRB]

Sigba....not everything is a racial sexual issue. I jumped to the end of the thread but read backwards knowing you'd be there with that comment.
Man, are you predictable.
You'd last about a nano second in the most dangerous game.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

Did they acquit themselves honorably on fields of play and in other forms of competition?

Racially, every ethnic group has at one time been enslaved, conquered, abused.
Sexually, yes, we played better years ago on the field of competition.
Women did not fight at school, it was not 'feminine'. Nowadays they do girl on girl 'beatdowns' and film it.
Opportunity for women has grown and that is a good thing, but much has been lost too.
OTOH, this has zero to do with the issue that was non racial and non sexual.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

I was waiting on your reply...which I knew would come sooner or later. Unfortunately, I don't think your response was quite what I hoped for.

Maybe I should have stuck with the first version of the post in which I made my point by a reference to the House of Arteus.


Many Americans point to the 'good old days' of their youths and how their experiences as adolescents shaped their personalities and imbued them with traits that would serve them well in adulthood. These comments serve as launching points for comments about the perceived flaws of subsequent generations and how those flaws impact American institutions today.

To be clear, this post and my previous one are in reply to this sensibility, not to how the American Army should train, lead, and discipline its soldiers.

An autobiographical approach to the past is beneficial to the study of American history. It often reveals more reasons to appreciate and to respect people and to admire their accomplishments. However, such an approach to the past is risky. It often does not account for how other cohorts had to grapple with significantly different everyday experiences.*

That is, many youths in post World War II America benefited from established rules of the game that protected them from having to compete against all comers. Consequently, many did not need to be told they were special or valued above others because the dynamics of power protected their status politically, economically, socially, and culturally.

Yes, one can attempt to explain away the existence of such rules as a constant feature of human existence. But how does one then square such an argument with the concept of American Exceptionalism?

__________________________________________________ ___
* An open challenge to all interested parties. The next time you're in a decent library, spend a few hours skimming the biographies, autobiographies, memoirs, and histories of Americans who came of age at the same time as you or your parents did but pick subjects who lived in a different part of town, worshiped God differently, or had a different ethnic/racial background. At times, you may wonder if you're reading about the same America.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

It often does not account for how other cohorts had to grapple with significantly different everyday experiences.* .

So sigaba, in the nature-nurture-choice continuum, you argue that nurture overrides the other two? I did not grow up in the US. Through trial and error, hard-learned lessons, and grace/mercy/guidance of many, I managed to adopt the values embodied in the first few posts by the QP. Our past may shape us, but one still has the option/choice to change....for the better.

Still, I'm impressed by your latest post. I think I'll join you and stare up close at the trees