Pvt. Danny Chen's Death Sparks Push for Military Hazing Review

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

The internet generation has never learned to interact with other human beings as children on a playground, as competitors (vs participants) on field of sport, had to fight to preserve their honor by the swing set, or were told "you LOST and therefor you DON'T get a trophy". It has spawned a generation of PUSSIES who do not know how to handle personal conflict or being told that they aren't "winners" just for showing up.

IMHO - THAT is the problem.

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

Did they acquit themselves honorably on fields of play and in other forms of competition?

[LongWire]

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

What do you tell them????.......Good Game!!!! Better luck next time, and if they keep competing, then they just may win.

Let's try and remind ourselves that this is the Army that we are talking about and not a knitting club. If you happen to be a part of the spear do we need a warning label that tells us we may get thrown at something, or should we be able to think that one through?

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

I was waiting on your reply...which I knew would come sooner or later. Unfortunately, I don't think your response was quite what I hoped for. To begin with, that generation, may or may not still be in uniform...hard to say since racial and gender discrimination and bias is as much a reflection of where you were raised, who raised you, and who you were raised with.

I'm from the South...I will always practice gender segregation and discrimination...my wife is actually fairly receptive to it as well. Likewise, I try and stay out of her kitchen.

[PRB]

When I grew up in the 50's-early 60's hazing and bullying were very common. I remember getting in fist fights over it and occassionally getting my ass kicked.
I don't remember ever getting parents involved, it was considered 'the way things were' and normal in the animal world.
It was much more 'in your face' than things are today in this PC world except for possibly the internet aspect.
I do not remember any kid ever contimplating or attempting suicide in my first 18 years.
My unscientific response is this.
We were also never 'overvalued' or told how special we were. We were to be seen and not heard unless it was 'important'. You treated adults as priviledged folks who had earned their bones as you had not yet done so.
Many of these 'suiciders' I suspect have gotten smiley faces on the report cards for nothing.
Got to be a part of the team even tho they sucked.
Were really 'special' all their live regardless of performance.
Their perspective is so fucked up that this 'hazing' or bullying drives their little protected selves over the edge.
Childhood is a kind of SFAS for life. Or it should be.

[PRB]

Sigba....not everything is a racial sexual issue. I jumped to the end of the thread but read backwards knowing you'd be there with that comment.
Man, are you predictable.
You'd last about a nano second in the most dangerous game.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

And what should be said about the generations of youths who came of age when America practiced openly racial and gender segregation?

Did they acquit themselves honorably on fields of play and in other forms of competition?

Racially, every ethnic group has at one time been enslaved, conquered, abused.
Sexually, yes, we played better years ago on the field of competition.
Women did not fight at school, it was not 'feminine'. Nowadays they do girl on girl 'beatdowns' and film it.
Opportunity for women has grown and that is a good thing, but much has been lost too.
OTOH, this has zero to do with the issue that was non racial and non sexual.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by 1stindoor

I was waiting on your reply...which I knew would come sooner or later. Unfortunately, I don't think your response was quite what I hoped for.

Maybe I should have stuck with the first version of the post in which I made my point by a reference to the House of Arteus.


Many Americans point to the 'good old days' of their youths and how their experiences as adolescents shaped their personalities and imbued them with traits that would serve them well in adulthood. These comments serve as launching points for comments about the perceived flaws of subsequent generations and how those flaws impact American institutions today.

To be clear, this post and my previous one are in reply to this sensibility, not to how the American Army should train, lead, and discipline its soldiers.

An autobiographical approach to the past is beneficial to the study of American history. It often reveals more reasons to appreciate and to respect people and to admire their accomplishments. However, such an approach to the past is risky. It often does not account for how other cohorts had to grapple with significantly different everyday experiences.*

That is, many youths in post World War II America benefited from established rules of the game that protected them from having to compete against all comers. Consequently, many did not need to be told they were special or valued above others because the dynamics of power protected their status politically, economically, socially, and culturally.

Yes, one can attempt to explain away the existence of such rules as a constant feature of human existence. But how does one then square such an argument with the concept of American Exceptionalism?

__________________________________________________ ___
* An open challenge to all interested parties. The next time you're in a decent library, spend a few hours skimming the biographies, autobiographies, memoirs, and histories of Americans who came of age at the same time as you or your parents did but pick subjects who lived in a different part of town, worshiped God differently, or had a different ethnic/racial background. At times, you may wonder if you're reading about the same America.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

It often does not account for how other cohorts had to grapple with significantly different everyday experiences.* .

So sigaba, in the nature-nurture-choice continuum, you argue that nurture overrides the other two? I did not grow up in the US. Through trial and error, hard-learned lessons, and grace/mercy/guidance of many, I managed to adopt the values embodied in the first few posts by the QP. Our past may shape us, but one still has the option/choice to change....for the better.

Still, I'm impressed by your latest post. I think I'll join you and stare up close at the trees

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Yes, one can attempt to explain away the existence of such rules as a constant feature of human existence. But how does one then square such an argument with the concept of American Exceptionalism?

American Exceptionalism.
Those of us living in this nation, at this point in time, live in a state of blessing unknown to most who have ever walked the face of the earth.

How we received such blessing isn't what matters.
What we do with the blessing is what matters.

If people are not allowed to bestow the fruits of their efforts on whomever they choose, they likely will not labor to create abundance.
I suspect that freedom is key to the riddle.

Some people get a head start in life.
So what?

Just because some people have it better doesn't mean others have it worse.
The least blessed among us still have it better than most who have walked the face of the earth.

How exactly does American Exceptionalism work?
Just like Star Trek's Heisenberg Compensators: very well, thank you.