Pissing on video

[SPEC4]

The outrage expressed by the media regarding the marines relieving themselves, makes me think how lucky most people are, to have lived such sheltered lives.

I have no issue with the act, war produces many unspeakable acts, this isn't one, in my opinion, the person publishing the video performed the "unspeakable act".
:mad:

[VAKEMP]

Do you have an article that you can reference?

I haven't heard anything about this. :confused:

EDIT:
Found it: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/11/video-marines-urinating-on-dead-sparks-investigation/

Video appears to show marines urinating on bodies, sparking military investigation

Published January 11, 2012

| FoxNews.com

The U.S. Marine Corps is launching an investigation into a video that recently surfaced online showing what appears to be several Marines in uniform urinating on corpses.

[kmgerhard]

The best discussion on the topic I've read to date; written by Mitchell Bell, USMC on The SandGram (http://www.thesandgram.com/2012/01/12/marines-urinate-on-dead-taliban-fighters/) today.

And from Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-afghanistan-usa-marines-unit-idUSTRE80B1MI20120112).

[greenlight]

Does not make me laugh - nor does it reflect well on this site to have this sort of comment placed here.

Eagle edit

That made me laugh

[DevilSide]

You know, it's probably not appropriate, I wouldn't do it myself or allow my men to do it, but our opposition has done much worse, so...

[kgoerz]

I was impressed that they were all able to piss in Unison. But U.S Soldiers/Marines are held to a higher standard. These Marines were weak and lowered themselves to a the standard of their Enemy. The USMC should just get rid of them. Plenty of ditch digging jobs out there.

[Roguish Lawyer]

This has got to be a UCMJ violation, no?

[alright4u]

I was impressed that they were all able to piss in Unison. But U.S Soldiers/Marines are held to a higher standard. These Marines were weak and lowered themselves to a the standard of their Enemy. The USMC should just get rid of them. Plenty of ditch digging jobs out there.

I know it can be tough to think when men you know were just killed, but; I recall we had about 5-6 sappers left in and around our wire in late 68 that recon killed. A month earlier, sappers got in on Sep 3, 68 just after CCN was hit hard. I had 6 dead yards then. This time they paid dearly. The bodies started smelling. It was bothering the CO's breakfast. We hauled the NVA by truck south of camp and buried them. Those men were soldiers, too.

[Eagle5US]

The outrage expressed by the media regarding the marines relieving themselves, makes me think how lucky most people are, to have lived such sheltered lives.

I have no issue with the act, war produces many unspeakable acts, this isn't one, in my opinion, the person publishing the video performed the "unspeakable act".
:mad:

Perhaps you are not looking at the big picture here - the retribution and hindrance of forward momentum for those teams working with the villagers on the ground. The validation of the enemies characterization of US Forces. The propaganda value that this film has provided to the bad guys is every bit as bad (if not worse) than Abu-Ghrab.

Yes, most folks do live sheltered lives. The military is at war, the public is at the mall, smart bombs must be able to be dropped in the middle of a crowded playground and kill ONLY the one bad guy who is dressed in a suit wearing the concealed explosive vest.

That, unfortunately, does not excuse this type of behavior by a PROFESSIONAL MILITARY.

Think about it...

[MTN Medic]

+1 Brother.

[plato]

This has got to be a UCMJ violation, no?

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" seems to stretch to cover everything.

[PSM]

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" seems to stretch to cover everything.

Gee, in my day it was OK, even encouraged, to pee on Marines. Is that wrong now? :confused:

Pat

[kmgerhard]

Perhaps you are not looking at the big picture here - the retribution and hindrance of forward momentum for those teams working with the villagers on the ground. The validation of the enemies characterization of US Forces. The propaganda value that this film has provided to the bad guys is every bit as bad (if not worse) than Abu-Ghrab.

Think about it...

Trust me, I have. It's the very thing that's been haunting me since it broke. The pucker factor on waiting at home for commo just got kicked up a notch.

Thank you for pointing it out; wish more were.

[Spitfire34]

I'm not surprised at all that they would piss on the bodies but it's shocking that someone decided to film it and post it on the internet. I am in no way saying that what they did is okay but at least try to keep it off the sky-line. This makes us all look bad. Just my .02

[CombatMuffin]

I can't comment on the horrors of wars, and what's right and wrong in a battlefield: haven't been there.

...But we've come a long way since carrying swords around and "pillaging the village" in respect to the military. Civilized countries around the world can now field professional armies, where each individual soldier contributes a much larger role.

What shocks me the most is the amount of damage this causes to the U.S. efforts in the region (let alone Afghanistan). I am assuming a lot of good men payed a very high price to improve relationships with the locals, and this type of behavior does not seem, at least to me, to honor those efforts.

That said, it is not for me to criticize the sentiments felt out there, so I'll limit my comment this far.

[fng13]

I'm surprised we don't see more of this type of stuff, with the reality that everyone has access to camera's, the internet etc.

Certainly I am not saying that I would expect our troops to do things like this. Rather with combining easy access to technology with the high emotions I am sure come out of a combat zone, I think it is probably a testament of the professionalism of our soldiers that we don't see more of this.

[NoRoadtrippin]

The SandGram article is definitely very well written and makes some excellent points. The final quote from the War College grad is the pivotal issue. As a PL, XO acting as Commander for a year, and now as a humble S1, I have spent days and nights trying to figure out how to effectively communicate to my Soldiers that this war cannot be won with the mentality that we are going to Afghanistan to kill people and, for our BDE, with the same "Iraq" mentality that they have been in on their last two tours.

Somewhere, leadership failed these Marines. Now before I get into this, I will say that as an officer, I have no misgivings about the fact that LTs, CPTs and beyond are capable of making stupid, impulsive decisions. . . That being said, young Soldiers will always be that much more likely to do the same and often to a greater degree. It's just simple math. They are younger, less time to grow up (emotionally and mentally. . .even if war has unnaturally sped the process in many after 10 years), and excluding the higher ranks of NCOs, will most often be less educated.

I am sure more details concerning these Marines will come out and we will learn their ranks and just how much experience and frustration has built up in these men. But it is the officer that failed here in my mind. The first line leader failed on the ground. Maybe PL or CO weren't even around. The officer failed weeks or months before these guys ever left the wire. If PL and CO had effectively trained and prepared these Marines then they would have understood what this does to our progress. They would understand story after story that has broken like this and how it keeps getting their buddies killed. The sheep in this country want to know why we've been in Afghanistan for 10 years and what do we have to show for it all? I say plenty, but its crap like this that makes it all much less worthwhile because we can't get ahead of the curve.

And the guy who filmed it...well if it was a fellow Marine then that guy is simply an idiot.

[Tweeder11]

This is the topic today around the water cooler, and what I find upsetting is hearing people, who have never been there and never been through the stress of combat, are berating these Marines and likening their actions to the overall US presense over seas.

IMH(Inexperienced)O the majority of us know right and wrong and where this stands, but leave the condemning of their actions to their fellow servicemen (past and present), their supperiors, and the protectors of the UCMJ.

I'm sorry if I'm out of my lane & I appreciate the oppurtunity to post on this.

Tweeder

[stfesta]

Was this done in poor taste...yes.
Will it be used as a propaganda tool by EVERYONE...yes.

The 1st mistake was having a camera there. How many of us did something while in group that we didn't want anyone to see? I am going to bet almost everyone. The reason you never see any pics or video of me while in 7th Group is I followed rule #1. No cameras. My memory will serve me fine.

Now, I did not write this next part, it was passed along to me by a friend but, it really started me thinking.

So if you pee on a crucifix, you are an artist. Pee on the flag you are a constitutionalist..but pee on a the Taliban?

A very simple statement with a lot of power.

Before anyone goes off on the tangent of how this will affect the military image...I got it, it was done in poor taste. Do I as a human being condone this behavior? Absolutely not.

That being said, read that statement again, strip it down to it's premise.

Did these men really do anything different than what was listed above? Did they do anything equal to or worse than what has been done to our Soldiers?

As far as the video being used for a recruitment tool, there is really no argument there. It doesn't matter what we do, it will all be used as recruitment tools. Right now the recruitment tool is that we are week. At least with this video the enemy will know that his soul will not be pure. It's not as if the Taliban were about to throw in the towel and go home until this video came out.

Those who scream the loudest for tolerance are the more often than not the most intolerant.

Those are my $0.02
sf

[Utah Bob]

..... I think it is probably a testament of the professionalism of our soldiers that we don't see more of this.

I agree. Alas, the harm that is done to the reputation of those good troops by this small group of individuals is way out of proportion. But that's the way these things go.

[Snaquebite]

Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

[tf999]

Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West



http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html


Great letter. +1

[greenberetTFS]

"Shut your mouth,War is hell".........:(

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.http

Enough said!!!.........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

[Gypsy]

Has anybody heard the media blaming Obama for this? You know, like they blamed Bush for Abu Ghraib?

Oh. Never mind.

Of course I am not saying what they did is right but stfesta brings up a lot of good points.

What I am saying is this is why you should never bring a video cam to a pissing match.

[hoot72]

This video isn't going to do anyone any good...more so US forces globally from a military and diplomatic point of view.

Common sense went out the window on this one.....

[twistedsquid]

this is a bye product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

[Sdiver]

this is a by product of the volunteer army....

Yeah, let's just go back to the draft. :rolleyes:

[Sarski]

The 1st mistake was having a camera there.
sf

Couldn't agree more. Same for Abu Ghraib, which should have been a secure environment.

[Sarski]

this is a by product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

I disagree, twistedsquid. We have the best military in the world, and it's professional, and volunteer at the same time.

Instead this is the product of mob mentality, albeit a mob of 4 (5 if you count the camera man).

Somebody thought up this idea, which seemed like a good idea at the time; or a way to take out some frustrations in the midst of combat. Instead of thinking, the others followed suit. Instead of questioning, all joined in (well, as far as we know based on what has been presented).

Easy to turn away from this and not be a part of it, more difficult to question or stand against it when you have to work, live and fight with these guys on a daily basis. No black sheep so to speak, no one to take a stand against what they all did because that path has its own consequences in a military unit.

[Sohei]

In its simplest form it was a total lack of leadership compounded by the fact that there was not one person in the group that had the "backbone" to stop it because it was right to do so. What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Someone should have stepped up to the plate, drew a line and stopped it in the planning stages. No leaders present there, just followers.

[Dozer523]

"Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West


Quote:
“ I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

You don't? Me neither, LTC (P). What I recall is righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu.

And you don't recall everyones outrage and condemnation of the killing, burning and hanging of the Blackwater security contractors in Fallujah?
What planet were you living on when that happened?

Talk about self-rightous, Sir.

[Dozer523]

As for the pissers; I'm wishing a strong breeze was blowing. We'd be laughing at four idiots pissing themselves.

With the perp IDs complete, I'll bet that's actually happened.:D

[Guymullins]

This incident illustrates exactly why terrorism needs to be fought tooth and nail and eradicated. Because terrorism is warfare without moral constraints of any kind, it has the tendency to destroy the moral fibre of those combating it. When your enemy has no rules he fights by, it is very easy to begin adopting the same mindset. In Southern Africa, we had a 30 year war against terror and it was very difficult to maintain civilised standards of behaviour among our armed forces over such a long period of being confronted with pure evil. At the end of the day, it is not really what you do to the enemy, but what you do to yourself. Is this how you want your armed forces to behave? I think self-respect is of overriding importance, particularly when fighting a quasi-religious war. Fighting from the moral high ground is a force multiplier that even Hitler's great war machine had to come to terms with.

[hoot72]

This incident illustrates exactly why terrorism needs to be fought tooth and nail and eradicated. Because terrorism is warfare without moral constraints of any kind, it has the tendency to destroy the moral fibre of those combating it. When your enemy has no rules he fights by, it is very easy to begin adopting the same mindset. In Southern Africa, we had a 30 year war against terror and it was very difficult to maintain civilised standards of behaviour among our armed forces over such a long period of being confronted with pure evil. At the end of the day, it is not really what you do to the enemy, but what you do to yourself. Is this how you want your armed forces to behave? I think self-respect is of overriding importance, particularly when fighting a quasi-religious war. Fighting from the moral high ground is a force multiplier that even Hitler's great war machine had to come to terms with.


I would suggest this is not an issue of fighting terrorism but rather fighting people of a different sort of mentality and "education" who are neither interested in democratic values nor our kind of social and family values.

I wouldn't disagree what they do is genuinely barbaric and "evil."

To them, fanatical islamic values and beliefs are far greater than anything else offered..and to accept anything else than sharia law and islam is unacceptable and against islam.

It's like trying to convince a republican Obama has a soft spot for the NRA...it will take a miracle for anyone to believe that.

[Paslode]

What Dr. Harry Edward a professor of Sociology might say about the Marines:

This a freedom of expression, a moment when the militaristic discipline is shed for the pure joy of personal achievement.

and/or

In 75 Seasons, a 1994 documentary commemorating the 75th anniversary of the National Football League, sociologist Harry Edwards offered this explanation for what he views as a strong connection athletes' celebratory stylings: "You have a situation where a individual has paid the price and has achieved success. But when that success is achieved, they find that the vehicles of expressing how they feel about that are insufficient, and so they begin to innovate. And so when you see this continual creativity coming from individuals -- the high fives, spiking the ball, dancing in the end zone -- what you are witnessing is the creation of a vehicle to express that joy for which there is no mainstream language."


The days of kicking someone ass and honoring your foe for a good fight have gone the way of dis-honoring your foe through trash talk and other physical spectacles.

This type of behavior is condoned every NFL Sunday and many other sports. Kids have been watching for several decades, and increasingly mimicking, and building upon the escapades of there heros.


FTR - I removed a couple references to race

[BigWave]

Thank you, Dozer. I can not think about the politically orchestrated disaster that was Somalia without feeling the anger rise in my chest. I have friends that work for Blackwater / Xe that still feel the sting of Fallujah. Another televised event that is forever burned into my mind.

It is unfortunate that the mainstream media would rather vilify these Marines than exemplify a unit as rigorously for doing good, but we all know what sells. It is too easy to be stupid for all the world to see these days with our instant ability to record and post video. I had to arrest what I thought was one of my best deputies once because of a video of him beating someone in cuffs. I never would have known except for the video, i was just lucky that the video never made it to the television.

I am not naive enough to think that this does not impact the mission, but I hope that those of you in the sand do not suffer additional consequences because of the irresponsible actions of these Marines.

Godspeed gentlemen.

[Dozer523]

What Dr. Harry Edward a professor of Sociology might say about the Marines:

This a freedom of expression, a moment when the militaristic discipline is shed for the pure joy of personal achievement. This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

[SF_BHT]

This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

Hay when a guy has to go he has to go....:p

[Tweeder11]

Originally Posted by Dozer523
This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

http://news.yahoo.com/perry-defends-marines-accused-urinating-corpses-201422122.html

"Suggesting that armed conflict can alter personal behavior, Perry noted that "there is a picture" of legendary Army General George Patton urinating in the Rhine River in Germany near the end of World War Two."

Tweeder

[Utah Bob]

"Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West


Quote:
“ I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

You don't? Me neither, LTC (P). What I recall is righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. And you don't recall everyones outrage and condemnation of the killing, burning and hanging of the Blackwater security contractors in Fallujah?
What planet were you living on when that happened?

Talk about self-rightous, Sir.

I believe the good colonel's memory is faulty. :rolleyes:I remember the outrage well.

[Paslode]

This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

Don't take this as me condoning the behavior, because I don't.

No it isn't exactly the same, but considering the Battlefield is the ultimate field of competition it is very similar and in that respect it should be no surprise that You Tube is the venue of choice for their Bad Ass Me exploits.

The point is this type of theatrics is widely accepted in our culture, we go as far as producing ESPN highlights promoting the Look at My Bass Self image and why the games are more about Shaq, Deon and TeeBow than they are about the teams they play with.

AND experts like Dr. Edwards can dream up ways to make insulting behavior acceptable.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Dozer523
This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

http://news.yahoo.com/perry-defends-marines-accused-urinating-corpses-201422122.html

"Suggesting that armed conflict can alter personal behavior, Perry noted that "there is a picture" of legendary Army General George Patton urinating in the Rhine River in Germany near the end of World War Two."

Tweeder
Welcome to PS.Com.
1. You don't have to re-type the entire quote. Just go the bottom of the post of interest and hit quote. loads it right into your reply.
2. You don't just post links, back it up with YOUR point. It is not always as self-evident as you might think.
Case in point: "These kids made a mistake. There's not any doubt about it. They shouldn't have done it. It's bad," Perry told CNN's "State of the Union" program. "But to call it a criminal act, I think, is over the top," said Perry, who faces a possible make-or-break performance in the South Carolina Republican presidential primary on Saturday.
Rick Perry? this guy? http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/16/4191211/perry-says-south-carolina-isnt.html
So what? And he said it was "bad". And he's wrong, it is a criminal act. In fact, it's a war crime.
3. Find the picture. You won't.
4. And then explain how it is germaine. We are not talking about pissing (I pissed this morning AND last night. gasp!!) The point is where. (I pissed in the toilet. big whoop)

[Tweeder11]

Roger that sir,

I posted the link becuase I found the allusion to the picture of Patton ironic and nothing more.

I do feel what they did was wrong, but being that I've never been in combat I do not feel I can rightfully judge the action of others in combat.

Thank you for your corrections sir,
Tweeder

[stfesta]

I don't know how to put a pic here. If it worked woo hoo. If not oh well.
sf

[Oldrotorhead]

There are other ways to make your point. Maybe "playing cards" with pictures of pigs or pork products left with the bodies. Maybe leaving then where they were killed and more of less using them for bait. Maybe just waiting until to they get ripe to notify family or ANA. This could be a long list. I don't think the Taliban respects civilized behavior, but they react to insults, and that behavior could be used against them.

The really dumb part was the video, no video very little or no problem to deal with later.

[Gypsy]

I don't know how to put a pic here. If it worked woo hoo. If not oh well.
sf


It worked...

[Paslode]

I don't know how to put a pic here. If it worked woo hoo. If not oh well.
sf

Hypocrisy. Thank you!

[PRB]

You Pee for me Marine!

[s]

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" seems to stretch to cover everything.

I'd lean more on an NJP. Article 15 would be their CO's friend. Misconduct, discredit thrown upon themselves and the USMC. In my environment they'd call it captain's mast. I've seen a few and an old man worth his salt definitely knows how to tear you a new one. A fine, extra duties ( it used to be pretty easy for people in non LE positions to see when someone on base had fu*%&d up as you'd see them in blue coveralls, wandering around with one latex gloved hand and a black trash bag picking up cigarette butts and other minor litter and of course followed by an E-5 or above who looked terribly pissed and annoyed. Let us just say that when they still did that, throwing a cigarette butt on the ground wasn't that big of a deal since you had to give those guys something to work on. Apparently now the blue coverall's detrimental for the individual's dignity... BS :rolleyes: ), . I don't know how liberty restrictions programs work when deployed.

Anyhow, I agree with who's saying that we should definitely look at the big picture with this one. Those guys absolutely did a huge favour to the plethora of local detractors of Uncle Sam. Not a case if a taliban leader immediately released a public statement piling on it and accusing the US military of countless unreported profanations of the same nature.

[Golf1echo]

From " The Daily Norseman"
I can't tell you how many times I've been asked that as a Vikings fan. Most people think it's just a common, Scandanavian greeting...and it is. It can also translate into bowl, as in drink from a bowl. And although there are varying opinions on how 'skol' came to be a greeting, this is my most favorite one. Let's see how we can tie these two disparate meanings--(bowl and hello) together.

Star-divide

Back in the Middle Ages, rampaging bands of Vikings were roaming Europe and kicking the shit out of people. From Lindisfarme to France it didn't matter. For about 500 years, the boogeyman would check his closet before he went to bed to make sure there weren't any Vikings in it.

Anyway, at the end of the battle, Viking warriors would decapitate the king or leader of the tribe/army they had just vanquished and that night would drink from his skull--spelled skoll--as a sign of respect for the fallen opponent. It was only then, Viking warriors believed, could an opponent who had fought valiantly be allowed into Valhalla.

In battle, Vikings would urge each other forward by yelling "SKOLL" to one another. By doing so, they were telling each other to keep it up so they could drink from the skull (and the top of a lopped off skull looks roughly like a..wait for it...BOWL!!) of the Vanquished that night.

These days, it just is a way to urge each other on to victory in an American football game, but if you piss us off too much, we'll put Packer Nation's head on a pole, parade it around, and then drink some Grain Belt from it, so keep one eye open bitches, because the Vikings can go medieval on you in a freakin' heartbeat.

So, at least mythologically speaking, both meanings originate from our Ancestors kicking the hell out of some poor bastard who was the leader of some hopelessly pathetic tribe that dared to give us the finger.

I mean, think about it...after a hard day of rampaging, killing, and pillaging, you're beat. You're dog-assed tired. All you want to do is sit around a campifre, drink some grog, and shoot the shit with your buddies. You're too freakin' tired to strike up a conversation, and as a warrior, you don't gush over someone when you see that they're still alive, so you come up with simple, one or two word phrases that capture the essence of the moment.

Today, it's "dude".

Back then, as the skull of the poor bastard (who hours before was some minor bigshot) is passed around, all you have the energy to do is give a wry smile over to a fellow warrior and say....skol. One word conveyed it all.

So skol has evolved from a battle cry of warriors to a common salutation or toast to friends, which in a way, it always was.

Only under much different circumstances.

And if it is just a myth, as many claim, well, it's one hell of a myth, and until someone can prove to me they DIDN'T drink from the skull of a vanquished opponent, then By God, they did. Because until then, it's just opinion, and I like this side of the story a lot better, because it's totally badass.

"May we always drink from the skulls of our enemies!"

Skol.

They can smoke you but they can't eat you....for the most part.
Cultures throughout history have celebrated victory over their opponents in war many different ways....What doesn't get said is that you can cartwheel someone with a 7.62 round but to pee on them....
If you wouldn't start nothin, there wouldn't be nothin.

[s]

Are you trying to say that the 4 marines were just putting in being their own version of some old viking after-battle honouring gesture? :confused:

[Marauder06]

this is a by product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

Could you explain that? AFAIK, we have both a military that is both professional and volunteer.

[Golf1echo]

Are you trying to say that the 4 marines were just putting in being their own version of some old viking after-battle honouring gesture? :confused:

I wasn't there and know nothing other than what I see in the pictures. What I am saying is this would not be the first time in history that something happened after foes were killed. I am saying this kind of ritual is as old as time. The reason? They may not even know. Maybe a result of lack of ritual maybe dominance, disrespect, after action celebration, etc...Maybe they were doing what they could, can you imagine if they were filmed harvesting a bowl. Personally I have bigger priorities of things I am concerned with. Bless our soldiers and their fight...

[PRB]

This is minor bullshit, who knows what the circumstances were.
Art15 (suspended) for doing something they should not do, and they know they should not do, and some xtra duty.
If the American public doesn't like who is fighting their wars then they can collectively get off their 99.3 percent asses and join up...that includes all of the talking heads children and the plotico's too.
The Senior leadership should get their collective heads out of their asses and put this in the proper perspective.
If you have not been in serious combat then maybe you will not understand. Period.

[twistedsquid]

Could you explain that? AFAIK, we have both a military that is both professional and volunteer.

"volunteer" and "professional" were used generically to identify a code of conduct...i should have been more clear in my statement...thanks

[plato]

I'd lean more on an NJP. Article 15 would be their CO's friend. Misconduct, discredit thrown upon themselves and the USMC. In my environment they'd call it captain's mast.

I wasn't thinking level of punishment on that, but tossing out the "cover-all" for "What part of the UCMJ covers that?".

As I recall, a reprimand or Article 15 could save a good man's butt, if someone higher in the chain of command tended to overreact to a particular offense or a particular group of soldiers. Seems that, once punishment was imposed, even the relatively "mild" forms, additional proceedings were a "no go".

[Dozer523]

This is minor bullshit, who knows what the circumstances were.
Art15 (suspended) for doing something they should not do, and they know they should not do, and some xtra duty.

The Senior leadership should get their collective heads out of their asses and put this in the proper perspective.
If you have not been in serious combat then maybe you will not understand. Period.Maybe PBR, But these guys are toast. The only question is how far into the loaf they are going to go before the power gets shut down. I' would not want to be in the first four level of leadership here.

[Team Sergeant]

Perhaps you are not looking at the big picture here - the retribution and hindrance of forward momentum for those teams working with the villagers on the ground. The validation of the enemies characterization of US Forces. The propaganda value that this film has provided to the bad guys is every bit as bad (if not worse) than Abu-Ghrab.

Yes, most folks do live sheltered lives. The military is at war, the public is at the mall, smart bombs must be able to be dropped in the middle of a crowded playground and kill ONLY the one bad guy who is dressed in a suit wearing the concealed explosive vest.

That, unfortunately, does not excuse this type of behavior by a PROFESSIONAL MILITARY.

Think about it...

Could not have said it better.

An ignorant move on the part of a few really stupid individuals.

[PRB]

Could not have said it better.

An ignorant move on the part of a few really stupid individuals.

Yup, they were wrong.
However, if you think this act will set us back greatly hearts/minds that's a consideration but I doubt it will have much impact after 10 years of war.
Won't affect the Taliban at all, they totally understand depridations as cutting of your head with a dull knife is more their style.
The population has experienced much worse at the hands of the Talib.
It's been blown out of proportion....if it were a common deal and sop yeah, an issue. Afghanis aren't as stupid as we seem to think they are.

[Sigaba]

The "hearts and minds" I am most concerned with are those in the United States. A persistent theme in civil-military relations is Americans' ambivalence towards the armed services. While public confidence in the armed forces is much greater than it was four decades ago, I dread that events such as the one depicted in the video will be used to swing the pendulum in the other direction.

As an added example, I would point to the ongoing coverage of Itzcoatl Ocampo. The local news media lead their stories about the man with the facts that [A] he was a Marine who [B] served in Iraq without establishing the connection between those two facts and the crimes for which he has been charged. Consequently, the implied argument is that A and B contributed to C because A and B proceeded C. This "logic" is already fueling comments in the blogosphere that demonize all members of the armed services, that question the professionalism of the armed forces, and that express skepticism about the utility of war as an instrument of national policy.

My $0.02.

[PRB]

4 young kids, that probably killed these guys, do something stupid and that should sway public opinion about the military.
If out public is that dumb then we are lost.
That 'logic' about crazed service people has always existed and always will. Most thinking people can see beyond the shallowness of that argument.

[Sigaba]

That 'logic' about crazed service people has always existed and always will.QP PRB--

With respect, the perception is not just about crazed service people but also about dysfunctional and anachronistic institutions staffed by men and women who are more interested in their personal and parochial interests than the defense of the country.Most thinking people can see beyond the shallowness of that argument.Since when is the ability to think in and of itself proof against bigotry?

[greenberetTFS]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/405797_151979038250975_100003166401318_197555_1959 237682_n.jpg?dl=1

Big Teddy :munchin

[ECUPirate09]

Update on the sitation. Two Marine sergeants to be court-martialed.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MARINES_URINATION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[CloseDanger]

I am certain there are worse videos of what has been done against them, So sure .

[Richard]

The Marine Corps case over the Afghan urination video that just won't go away.

And so it goes...

Richard

Fight Escalates Over Case Involving Marines Urinating On Corpses
S&S, 16 Nov 2013

Nearly two years after a video of U.S. Marines urinating on the corpses of suspected Taliban fighters in Afghanistan became an Internet sensation, the case has triggered a rare and escalating fight over the way the military sought to punish the servicemembers who were implicated.

Maj. James Weirick, a Marine lawyer assigned to the case, is taking on the chief of the Marine Corps, Gen. James Amos, alleging that the criminal investigation was compromised after the commandant demanded harsh punishment for the suspects before they had their day in court.

In response, Weirick says, the Marine Corps has retaliated by removing him from his job, seizing his personal weapons and ordering him to get a mental health evaluation — steps he and his supporters call character assassination.

This week, Weirick took the fight a step further, charging in a complaint filed with the agency that oversees classification of secrets that senior Marine Corps officials improperly classified material that could have assisted defense lawyers representing the Marines under investigation.

The case could hardly come at a worse time for the military justice system, which has come under searing criticism from activists and lawmakers who contend that commanders often exert undue influence in criminal investigations, particularly those involving sexual assault.

The urination scandal was among the embarrassing episodes for the Marine Corps during the last decade of war, calling into question the military's ability to adequately investigate war crimes. Its muddled handling comes as Afghan officials are debating whether to support keeping U.S. troops in Afghanistan after 2014, which would require Kabul to extend immunity from prosecution by the Afghan authorities to U.S. forces that remain behind.

The military dropped its case against Capt. James Clement, the sole officer charged in the urination case in September, shortly before Weirick was to testify about his concerns. Three enlisted Marines who appear in the video have pleaded guilty to a range of charges that include wrongful possession of unauthorized photos of casualties and failure to report mistreatment of human casualties. Five other Marines received non-judicial punishments.

With the criminal cases over, Weirick says he is now in a struggle for his career and livelihood.

"There won't be a Weirick and an Amos in the Marine Corps at the end of this," he said in an interview Friday night. "I'm not sure which one will remain, but it's not clear we can both coexist."

As the Defense Department inspector general reviews Weirick's allegations, several retired Marine lawyers and a few members of Congress are rallying around the embattled officer.

"This has a foul odor at the highest level," Rep. Walter Jones, R-N.C., who has met with Weirick personally, said in an interview Friday. "This is an effort at the highest level to discredit a man of integrity."

The Marine Corps says Weirick was not removed from his job in retaliation for being a whistleblower. The step was taken after Weirick sent an email to a colleague he believed was under pressure to cover up lapses by senior officers, asking him to "come clean" about his actions in the probe.

Col. Sean Gibson, a Marine Corps spokesman said, in an email that the message showed "poor judgement." There was some question as to whether the language in the email could be construed as threatening, according to military officials.

"The command is well aware of obligations to service members who have made protected communication to the Inspector General," Gibson said. "The command has and will continue to meet these obligations."

A spokesman for Amos said the commandant would not discuss the case.

"He respects the process by which the disputed issues will be sorted out, and he has full faith and confidence in his commanders to handle those matters within their purview," said Lt. Col. David Nevers, the spokesman.

The saga began on January 2012, when a video of four Marines laughing as they urinated on the corpses of suspected insurgents was posted on YouTube. The video alarmed U.S. military officials in Afghanistan because it came shortly after deadly riots in the country sparked by the revelation that U.S. military personnel had burned Korans.

Weeks after the incident, Amos met with Lt. Gen. Thomas Waldhauser, who had been assigned to oversee the prosecution. In their conversation, Amos told Waldhauser that he wanted those responsible "crushed" and separated from the service, Waldhauser wrote in a court filing in July.

Waldhauser told Amos that he was considering a lesser form of punishment for some of the Marines. Amos soon replaced Waldhauser with another three-star general, saying that he worried their conversation could have been construed as undue command influence.

As the case moved forward, Weirick and other Marine officials protested when senior officers argued that the video and an investigative report ought to be classified in order to prevent leaks that could stoke further controversy in Afghanistan about the case.

"Tensions were running high in Afghanistan in the wake of the Koran burning and civilian casualties, posing serious operational and strategic threats," Nevers said. "The decision to classify the materials was made in that crucial context."

A Marine expert on classification expressed alarm at the time, writing in a March 14, 2012, email to Weirick that the Marine Corps stood to look "like a box of buffoons" if the decisions to classify the video and report were litigated.

After Weirick started raising alarms about the way the case was being handled in the spring, he was reassigned. But he kept pushing the issue, he said, believing that the Marines under investigation deserved a fair proceeding. Beyond launching an inspector general probe, he said, the military has taken no action in response to his concerns, the major said.

This week, Weirick filed a complaint to the Information Security Oversight Office, which oversees classification procedures across the federal government. The former head of that office, J. William Leonard, endorsed his complaint.

"I am extremely concerned that the integrity of the classification system continues to be severely undermined by the complete absence of accountability in instances such as this clear abuse of classification authority," he wrote in a letter to the agency's directory, John Fitzpatrick.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/fight-escalates-over-case-involving-marines-urinating-on-corpses-1.253233