View Full Version : US Chopper Flights Whip Bavarians Into Fury
Lärmschütz - I used to have to deal with noise abatement issues with the Kreise u. Gemeinde in Nordrhein-Westfalen, Hesse, Rehinland-Pfalz, and Saarland when at the DAO-AmEmbassy and OACSCMO-21st TAACOM - some things I don't miss and some things never change.
Richard :munchin
US Chopper Flights Whip Bavarians Into Fury
The Local, 31 May 2011
More than 500 complaints have been received by the city of Ansbach in Middle Franconia already this year – more than ever before – about the helicopter noise, which routinely goes until midnight, daily Süddeutsche Zeitung reported.
Katterbach houses the 12th Combat Aviation Brigade, which consists of 3,100 military personnel and more than 100 Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters.
When the Katterbach base was established in the 1970s, the commander supposedly made a “gentleman’s agreement” with the then mayor of Ansbach: the helicopters would fly as little as possible over populated areas and never at night.
But after a while, the Americans began to ignore the agreement, residents told Süddeutsche Zeitung. The city has pleaded with the Americans.
“And absolutely nothing has happened,” Mayor Carda Seidel told the paper.
The last meeting of the “Noise Commission,” a body made up of representatives of the US Army and the mayors of local towns and villages, ended without any concrete decisions. Letters have gone unanswered and protests ignored. The base’s commander did not respond to inquiries from Süddeutsche Zeitung.
The municipal officials are somewhat torn because they also depend economically on the base.
“For our mutual benefit, it is important that we take the Americans into account,” said Seidel, before adding, “At the moment they are not doing that for us.”
Meanwhile, an American community near the B14 road through Middle Franconia has attracted the anger of locals after the Americans built a large housing estate including a hotel and shopping centre on top of a bird and frog habitat. Barbed wire has been erected without permission.
Residents complain about the “occupiers” with “Rambo attitudes,” according to Süddeutsche Zeitung. Letters to the local newspaper demand “Army go home.”
Dieter Hiemer, 45, who has lived in the Obereichenbach area for 20 years, complained he was suffering sleep loss because of the helicopters.
The nurse, birdwatcher and nature lover branded the noise of the helicopters “hell” that “shakes the plates in the cupboard.”
On a piece of recycled paper, he had compiled a list of infringements on one particular evening: 10:23 pm “flyover”; 10:25 pm “ditto”; 10:26 pm “again.”
He measured one of those flights at 90 decibels, which is as loud as a jackhammer. Often the flights do not stop until midnight. Four years ago, Hiemer founded a citizen’s group, Etz langt’s, which has about 200 members. One of its mottos is: “Helicopters to wind turbines.”
The Ansbach City Council passed a resolution banning flights after 10 pm, but this is overridden by federal law. The Defence Ministry allows flights until midnight. In May and August, training flights are allowed until 1:30 am and in June and July they are permitted until 2 am.
http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110531-35375.html
"................Letters to the local newspaper demand “Army go home.”............."
OK - I'm chilly with that.
Except for some refueling spots here and there maybe it's time to let the EU swim in the deep end of the pool without US floats.
Maybe NATO can do without the US. Let Turkey pick up the slack. Working pretty well in Libya right now.
ObliqueApproach
06-01-2011, 10:47
Or how about we head east.....I bet the Poles would be willing to host us, regardless of the noise.:boohoo
No Nukes.
Since Germany is going "No Nuke" and puttling up giant wind farms I wonder how those mountain folks will like all those new transmision lines running through their hills?
Might make them long for the good old days.
Ret10Echo
06-01-2011, 12:01
Or how about we head east.....I bet the Poles would be willing to host us, regardless of the noise.:boohoo
Hungarians would have loved us to move East... Makes sense, closer to the AOR we seem to be focused upon.
mojaveman
06-01-2011, 19:38
In the early '80s at Stuttgart we had one aviation unit at Nellingen Barracks and an even larger one at Echterdingen Army Airfield. Nobody ever complained about the noise though because Stuttgart had a pretty big airport with plenty of traffic. Don't remember much night flying though. Wonder if the GWOT has Army aviation practicing more night ops. Moving any facilities to Eastern Europe definately would be cheaper for both the government and also personnel.
we didn't hear much about aircraft noise except when the Bn was running a JM course at Malmsheim. Did hear lots of complaints about gunfire though for the little bedroom village that sprang up behind the range area. Most of the folks there were shown the properties when there was no firing going on, weekends etc. A big noise survey was conducted and it turned out the larger noise issue came from the Stuttgart International flight paths. Not sure how it ended after I left in 2008.
As to those Nieder Bayer (lower bavarians) I say yup time to move, lets see how the ecomony tumbles in the Graf area. Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving
MVP
BigJimCalhoun
06-03-2011, 21:22
I hear helicopters frequently at my home.
Someone who lives about 1 mile from my lands what I think is a Huey, at least it looks like what I see in Vietnam movies. It is much larger than a Bell 206 and he flys it weekly out of his yard. I deal with it fine, I think is pretty cool that he has the resources and skill to own something like that.
Last year, something flew over the house and shook it enough that I went outside to see what it was. These were the two rotor helicopters (Chinock I think) probably on their way to Fort Carson.
Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving
MVP
What may be bad for the economy is great for the housing market. It seems like the Army has been "leaving" Heidelberg for about 10 years now, so I'm still kinda skeptical :D
we didn't hear much about aircraft noise except when the Bn was running a JM course at Malmsheim. Did hear lots of complaints about gunfire though for the little bedroom village that sprang up behind the range area. Most of the folks there were shown the properties when there was no firing going on, weekends etc. A big noise survey was conducted and it turned out the larger noise issue came from the Stuttgart International flight paths. Not sure how it ended after I left in 2008.
As to those Nieder Bayer (lower bavarians) I say yup time to move, lets see how the ecomony tumbles in the Graf area. Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving
MVP
I've been living in the area my whole life and I have to say that aircraft noise (neither U.S. C-130 / UH-60 or German C-160 / CH-53) has never been an issue. At least not for me. Although all of these aircraft, except for the Blackhawks, flew directly over my place when I was younger.
If there's any aircraft that can be annoying here- it's the police helicopters and the rescue helicopter from Leonberg.
On the other hand I've heard stories about residents complaining about helicopter noise from the Bundeswehr's Army Aviation Corps, a few years after the exact same choppers&crews safed their asses during the worst floodings in decades.
And hey, lower bavarians are, eerrr "special" people.......
eine_frau
07-16-2011, 16:55
from what I can find on that on the german media, there is a group of about 30 local residents out of the Ansbach/Katterbach/Illesheim area that are protesting and trying to get the helicopter flights after 10pm banned.
Seems like their chances aren't that great that it might actually happen.
http://www.br-online.de/studio-franken/aktuelles-aus-franken/landkreis-ansbach-fluglaerm-us-kampfhubschrauber-ID1309944367212.xml
But really:confused:, 30 people divided around 2 US military posts got riled up by some rather strange guy and write complaints and try to take it to the courts-and they probably really get bothered by the noise. That is not going to translate to any of you like Germany doesn't want to host US miltary, right?
Every time a post closes it is devastating for the economy in the area, and at least the cities that I live close to, are always struggling to keep the Army there.
By the way, I am sure around every post in the States you can gather up 30 people who have some complaint about noise or land development, etc.
---I do feel sorry for whoever has to deal with the paperwork, though
mojaveman
07-16-2011, 17:34
Every time a post closes it is devastating for the economy in the area, and at least the cities that I live close to, are always struggling to keep the Army there.
So true. Many German communities lost millions after the American military began closing installations there in the '90s.
I can remember a few years ago when someone in the U.S. Government casually remarked that there was a possibility that Ramstein could be closed. The local politicians in that area panicked and spent a whole bunch of money in an attempt to convince the USAF officals as to why they should remain there.
Red Flag 1
07-16-2011, 18:09
I was stationed @ Hahn AFB in the late '70s-early 80's. We flew F-4's and later transitioned to F-16's. During that time period the German military was flying F-104's Very easy to tell the difference, 104's also had a very distinct howl. We did not fly below 500', the Germans came down to 200-250' ; hell, they were flying training missions up the Mosel River valley. Each time a jet flew over in a low pass, the locals would shake a fist and bitch about the idiot Americans in their F-104's. I will also add that nearly every German WW II vet I spoke with, fought the Russians on the Eastern front. I lived off base and spent much of my off duty time with the Germans. I never had any problems with them, and felt very comfortable there.
It was interesting that NATO took great care in the color of buildings on base, "camo" they said. They did a lot of considering so as to make it more difficult to spot the bases from the air. Somehow they failed to consider baseball diamonds on base property, they were pretty easy to pick out. NATO run exercises had a history of not playing as hard at tea time and after dark. It was predictable, and we did everything we could to snag some night duty on NATO games.
Germany, Europe and NATO had a rather different approach to war-time footing from what I saw back then. The stance taken against the chopper flights leads me to believe that little has changed. I have returned to Germany several times since I have retired. Many bases are closed now. A large number of facilities in Bavaria have been returned to the Germans. Are we more amazed as to how things have changed, or how they have remained the same?
My $.02.
RF 1
Other than the nuke deterrent, how important is it to have troop concentrations in Europe today?
Considering the lack of European military spending and the political situation why not just leave some FOB's lightly manned and pull out?
Man the HQ's..NATO etc, some airbases in Btitain and say FO.
eine_frau
07-17-2011, 04:15
I would be interested in an answer to PRB's question as to how important troop concentrations in Europe are...
As a German local I have more selfish interests in the posts staying open.
American families make up a part of my business. My house would lose significant value if the Army suddenly threw all that living space on the market, etc...
From what I understand the military seriously looked into moving posts from Germany to Poland, Rumania, etc... when Schröder refused to get Germany involved in the war in Iraq. Havn't heard much about that lately
Team Sergeant
07-17-2011, 09:18
I agree with PRB, we're not facing any threats in Europe, time to bring the boys home. Leave some medical units and Air Force. We sure could use the cuts in spending right now....
Badger52
07-19-2011, 11:19
I would be interested in an answer to PRB's question as to how important troop concentrations in Europe are...
As a German local I have more selfish interests in the posts staying open.
American families make up a part of my business. My house would lose significant value if the Army suddenly threw all that living space on the market, etc...
From what I understand the military seriously looked into moving posts from Germany to Poland, Rumania, etc... when Schröder refused to get Germany involved in the war in Iraq. Havn't heard much about that latelyThe concerns (usually economic impact) are not unique to Europe but have been endured by many areas in the USA who've lost one or another iteration of BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure). A country has to do what it has to do.
Around here that F16 running low-level ingress routes, or the weekend music of 105's going off, is called "the sound of Freedom." Statewide, busine$$es call it something else, as they're already familiar with what's at stake. Most of the citizenry is supportive anyway because it's both in their makeup and it's their son/daughter that is going through their 3rd deployment and we watched their baseball practices, went to their school recitals when they were growing up, etc.)
To stay in an environment that isn't supportive, absent the threat that previously justified the presence, isn't going to carry economic water. I had this debate with the young "professionally-permanent" students at the Frei Universitat in the 60's. "Ami go home" ... fine. Let me know how that student mil-service deferment based on your pilgrimage to West Berlin works out for you.
Respectfully, it seems no one wants the Spartan on their fenceline until it cuts into their rice bowl. Plus ca change...
AFAIK Bases like Katterbach (not particually the Ansbach facility), Bamberg and Oberpfaffenhofen are safe to stay.
For Katterbach IIRC the bunker complex is unique and vital as is the Recce/Signal capabilities of Oberpfaffenhofen in order to furfill some (tbh a bit outdated) NATO Agreements.
Bamberg is said to be the 2nd largest US Ammunition Depot outside US soil and is a logistic key point for any operation in the middle east.
And look: Future Operations of the US, NATO or some Allies with US interests involved will probably take place in northern Africa. So Germany isn´t a particually bad place for stationing your troops. It´s one of the most secure and safe countries in the world, provides a very high standard of living and has an accomplished history with US Troops being stationed in the country. Very little personal conflicts besides this noise gibberish (which I can tell you also the Bundeswehr is constantly facing).
And I mean, even though it´s the military, you might check with your troops: Where would you rather spend some years of your service away from home: Germany or Romania/Hungary etc....
I myself was stationed in the US with the German Troops there. (for those who didn´t knew this: Germany has got 5 military Bases on US Soil). And well if it was not the United States I am sure I would have not enjoyed my stay as I did.
(for those who didn´t knew this: Germany has got 5 military Bases on US Soil).
I think Jas meant to say there are 5 American bases in the US where German military forces are routinely stationed for training - two of them are here in Texas (one in the SW for Heer training and one in the North for Luftwaffe training).
This is not any sort of NWO conspiracy. ;)
Richard :munchin
Shhhhhh ;)
We do sell that differently to the people here :D
Holloman AFB does actually have a real base even with german flight security personnel and air traffic management, that´s why we are flying there with german markings on the Tornados and under german flight security rules. The HQ Command US/CA is pretty independent too and for instance is not embedded in any other USGOV Institution or facility, as it is for the traffic&transportation Department at Dulles International Airport.
But anyway let me live on in my dreams that we made a fair trade instead of you having the best training areas in our country (Grafenwöhr and Baumholder) and us "occupying" some lifeless desert in the middle of nowhere.
Btw: NWO conspiracy? With Germany on Top? Wahahha yeah no... maybe if the US-GER-UK-F-I-J formed the USD - United States of Debt we´ll have some say in a NWO ;)
Greetings from sunny Airborne School Altenstadt
It's a kinda sorta thing...
http://www.holloman.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4364
FWIW - El Paso and Alamogordo are both good places to find great German food and conversation for those wanting to enjoy a taste of Germany and practice their language skills. ;)
OBTW - I sure miss Altenstadt. I remember when we were undergoing team HALO training there and one of the guys landed in a mist sump at a dairy near the DZ after a combination of a not so great 'spot' from an MC-130E and a breezy day - the riggers were pissed about their chutes and we made him hose down before that chilly ride back to Tölz in the back of the M35. :D
Richard :munchin