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Old 06-01-2011, 10:19   #1
Richard
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US Chopper Flights Whip Bavarians Into Fury

Lärmschütz - I used to have to deal with noise abatement issues with the Kreise u. Gemeinde in Nordrhein-Westfalen, Hesse, Rehinland-Pfalz, and Saarland when at the DAO-AmEmbassy and OACSCMO-21st TAACOM - some things I don't miss and some things never change.

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US Chopper Flights Whip Bavarians Into Fury
The Local, 31 May 2011

More than 500 complaints have been received by the city of Ansbach in Middle Franconia already this year – more than ever before – about the helicopter noise, which routinely goes until midnight, daily Süddeutsche Zeitung reported.

Katterbach houses the 12th Combat Aviation Brigade, which consists of 3,100 military personnel and more than 100 Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters.

When the Katterbach base was established in the 1970s, the commander supposedly made a “gentleman’s agreement” with the then mayor of Ansbach: the helicopters would fly as little as possible over populated areas and never at night.

But after a while, the Americans began to ignore the agreement, residents told Süddeutsche Zeitung. The city has pleaded with the Americans.

“And absolutely nothing has happened,” Mayor Carda Seidel told the paper.

The last meeting of the “Noise Commission,” a body made up of representatives of the US Army and the mayors of local towns and villages, ended without any concrete decisions. Letters have gone unanswered and protests ignored. The base’s commander did not respond to inquiries from Süddeutsche Zeitung.

The municipal officials are somewhat torn because they also depend economically on the base.

“For our mutual benefit, it is important that we take the Americans into account,” said Seidel, before adding, “At the moment they are not doing that for us.”

Meanwhile, an American community near the B14 road through Middle Franconia has attracted the anger of locals after the Americans built a large housing estate including a hotel and shopping centre on top of a bird and frog habitat. Barbed wire has been erected without permission.

Residents complain about the “occupiers” with “Rambo attitudes,” according to Süddeutsche Zeitung. Letters to the local newspaper demand “Army go home.”

Dieter Hiemer, 45, who has lived in the Obereichenbach area for 20 years, complained he was suffering sleep loss because of the helicopters.

The nurse, birdwatcher and nature lover branded the noise of the helicopters “hell” that “shakes the plates in the cupboard.”

On a piece of recycled paper, he had compiled a list of infringements on one particular evening: 10:23 pm “flyover”; 10:25 pm “ditto”; 10:26 pm “again.”

He measured one of those flights at 90 decibels, which is as loud as a jackhammer. Often the flights do not stop until midnight. Four years ago, Hiemer founded a citizen’s group, Etz langt’s, which has about 200 members. One of its mottos is: “Helicopters to wind turbines.”

The Ansbach City Council passed a resolution banning flights after 10 pm, but this is overridden by federal law. The Defence Ministry allows flights until midnight. In May and August, training flights are allowed until 1:30 am and in June and July they are permitted until 2 am.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110531-35375.html
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:44   #2
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OK

"................Letters to the local newspaper demand “Army go home.”............."

OK - I'm chilly with that.

Except for some refueling spots here and there maybe it's time to let the EU swim in the deep end of the pool without US floats.

Maybe NATO can do without the US. Let Turkey pick up the slack. Working pretty well in Libya right now.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:47   #3
ObliqueApproach
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Head East

Or how about we head east.....I bet the Poles would be willing to host us, regardless of the noise.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:10   #4
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No Nukes

No Nukes.

Since Germany is going "No Nuke" and puttling up giant wind farms I wonder how those mountain folks will like all those new transmision lines running through their hills?

Might make them long for the good old days.
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Old 06-01-2011, 12:01   #5
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Originally Posted by ObliqueApproach View Post
Or how about we head east.....I bet the Poles would be willing to host us, regardless of the noise.
Hungarians would have loved us to move East... Makes sense, closer to the AOR we seem to be focused upon.
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Old 06-01-2011, 19:38   #6
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In the early '80s at Stuttgart we had one aviation unit at Nellingen Barracks and an even larger one at Echterdingen Army Airfield. Nobody ever complained about the noise though because Stuttgart had a pretty big airport with plenty of traffic. Don't remember much night flying though. Wonder if the GWOT has Army aviation practicing more night ops. Moving any facilities to Eastern Europe definately would be cheaper for both the government and also personnel.

Last edited by mojaveman; 06-03-2011 at 18:25.
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Old 06-03-2011, 15:55   #7
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Stuttgart noise

we didn't hear much about aircraft noise except when the Bn was running a JM course at Malmsheim. Did hear lots of complaints about gunfire though for the little bedroom village that sprang up behind the range area. Most of the folks there were shown the properties when there was no firing going on, weekends etc. A big noise survey was conducted and it turned out the larger noise issue came from the Stuttgart International flight paths. Not sure how it ended after I left in 2008.

As to those Nieder Bayer (lower bavarians) I say yup time to move, lets see how the ecomony tumbles in the Graf area. Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving

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Old 06-03-2011, 21:22   #8
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I hear helicopters frequently at my home.

Someone who lives about 1 mile from my lands what I think is a Huey, at least it looks like what I see in Vietnam movies. It is much larger than a Bell 206 and he flys it weekly out of his yard. I deal with it fine, I think is pretty cool that he has the resources and skill to own something like that.

Last year, something flew over the house and shook it enough that I went outside to see what it was. These were the two rotor helicopters (Chinock I think) probably on their way to Fort Carson.
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:44   #9
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Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving

MVP
What may be bad for the economy is great for the housing market. It seems like the Army has been "leaving" Heidelberg for about 10 years now, so I'm still kinda skeptical
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:10   #10
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Originally Posted by MVP View Post
we didn't hear much about aircraft noise except when the Bn was running a JM course at Malmsheim. Did hear lots of complaints about gunfire though for the little bedroom village that sprang up behind the range area. Most of the folks there were shown the properties when there was no firing going on, weekends etc. A big noise survey was conducted and it turned out the larger noise issue came from the Stuttgart International flight paths. Not sure how it ended after I left in 2008.

As to those Nieder Bayer (lower bavarians) I say yup time to move, lets see how the ecomony tumbles in the Graf area. Heidelberg is now not happy the Ami's finally have/are leaving

MVP
I've been living in the area my whole life and I have to say that aircraft noise (neither U.S. C-130 / UH-60 or German C-160 / CH-53) has never been an issue. At least not for me. Although all of these aircraft, except for the Blackhawks, flew directly over my place when I was younger.
If there's any aircraft that can be annoying here- it's the police helicopters and the rescue helicopter from Leonberg.
On the other hand I've heard stories about residents complaining about helicopter noise from the Bundeswehr's Army Aviation Corps, a few years after the exact same choppers&crews safed their asses during the worst floodings in decades.
And hey, lower bavarians are, eerrr "special" people.......
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Old 07-16-2011, 16:55   #11
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Katterbach

from what I can find on that on the german media, there is a group of about 30 local residents out of the Ansbach/Katterbach/Illesheim area that are protesting and trying to get the helicopter flights after 10pm banned.
Seems like their chances aren't that great that it might actually happen.

http://www.br-online.de/studio-frank...9944367212.xml

But really, 30 people divided around 2 US military posts got riled up by some rather strange guy and write complaints and try to take it to the courts-and they probably really get bothered by the noise. That is not going to translate to any of you like Germany doesn't want to host US miltary, right?

Every time a post closes it is devastating for the economy in the area, and at least the cities that I live close to, are always struggling to keep the Army there.

By the way, I am sure around every post in the States you can gather up 30 people who have some complaint about noise or land development, etc.

---I do feel sorry for whoever has to deal with the paperwork, though
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Old 07-16-2011, 17:34   #12
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Every time a post closes it is devastating for the economy in the area, and at least the cities that I live close to, are always struggling to keep the Army there.
So true. Many German communities lost millions after the American military began closing installations there in the '90s.

I can remember a few years ago when someone in the U.S. Government casually remarked that there was a possibility that Ramstein could be closed. The local politicians in that area panicked and spent a whole bunch of money in an attempt to convince the USAF officals as to why they should remain there.

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Old 07-16-2011, 18:09   #13
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I was stationed @ Hahn AFB in the late '70s-early 80's. We flew F-4's and later transitioned to F-16's. During that time period the German military was flying F-104's Very easy to tell the difference, 104's also had a very distinct howl. We did not fly below 500', the Germans came down to 200-250' ; hell, they were flying training missions up the Mosel River valley. Each time a jet flew over in a low pass, the locals would shake a fist and bitch about the idiot Americans in their F-104's. I will also add that nearly every German WW II vet I spoke with, fought the Russians on the Eastern front. I lived off base and spent much of my off duty time with the Germans. I never had any problems with them, and felt very comfortable there.

It was interesting that NATO took great care in the color of buildings on base, "camo" they said. They did a lot of considering so as to make it more difficult to spot the bases from the air. Somehow they failed to consider baseball diamonds on base property, they were pretty easy to pick out. NATO run exercises had a history of not playing as hard at tea time and after dark. It was predictable, and we did everything we could to snag some night duty on NATO games.

Germany, Europe and NATO had a rather different approach to war-time footing from what I saw back then. The stance taken against the chopper flights leads me to believe that little has changed. I have returned to Germany several times since I have retired. Many bases are closed now. A large number of facilities in Bavaria have been returned to the Germans. Are we more amazed as to how things have changed, or how they have remained the same?

My $.02.

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Old 07-16-2011, 18:20   #14
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Other than the nuke deterrent, how important is it to have troop concentrations in Europe today?
Considering the lack of European military spending and the political situation why not just leave some FOB's lightly manned and pull out?
Man the HQ's..NATO etc, some airbases in Btitain and say FO.
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Old 07-17-2011, 04:15   #15
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I would be interested in an answer to PRB's question as to how important troop concentrations in Europe are...

As a German local I have more selfish interests in the posts staying open.
American families make up a part of my business. My house would lose significant value if the Army suddenly threw all that living space on the market, etc...

From what I understand the military seriously looked into moving posts from Germany to Poland, Rumania, etc... when Schröder refused to get Germany involved in the war in Iraq. Havn't heard much about that lately
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