Scenario (fight in full gear w/ rifle in hands)

[Smokin Joe]

ROE: Unless you detect a deadly threat you cannot shoot the individual

Scenario: You are in full battle rattle with your M-4 in your hands. You have someone at rifle point there are no visible weapons on the individual but you have Intel that they just stabbed someone. Individual is very non-compliant with your verbal directions in fact they start throwing there hands in the air and challenge you to shoot them. Individual starts walking towards you while challenging you to shoot them. This escalates into a hands on fight, again the individual does not produce a weapon and you have a(n) M-4 (or AR-15) in your hands. What would you do?

Environmental factors: It is night time with limited visibility and your teammates are close but not close enough to assist you in the fight.

Reminders: No OPSEC violations and no super secret TTP's.

What I'm looking for: Dialogue on combative techniques while in full battle rattle with your rifle in your hands as well as efficient down and dirty techniques that will work on a range of individuals from half your size to twice your size.

If you would like to respond me by PM I will sterlize it and re-post it for you.

[aricbcool]

Smokin'

Have we fixed bayonets? Assuming full battle rattle, we can assume optional items like flashlights, knives, etc.?

I'm glad you posted this. These scenario threads are great.

Regards,
Aric

[CPTAUSRET]

We were taught to use the vertical butt stroke with the M-1 Garand, (same same M-14) which was sturdy enough to do serious damage, depending on how much force you put behind the blow.

I presume you could use the M-4 in a similar manner.

Terry

[Razor]

LEO or Mil? I ask, as I don't know if an LEO is allowed by ROE to muzzle strike the guy rapidly in the snoot a couple times to reduce his visibility/will to fight. If that's allowed, then do that, and depending on your battle rattle, you can transition from rifle to Taser or baton/ASP to continue educating him on his bad choices in life. As a non-LEO, I'd interpret the sudden rush at me as deadly intent and shoot him in the grape then and there.

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by Razor

LEO or Mil? I ask, as I don't know if an LEO is allowed by ROE to muzzle strike the guy rapidly in the snoot a couple times to reduce his visibility/will to fight. If that's allowed, then do that, and depending on your battle rattle, you can transition from rifle to Taser or baton/ASP to continue educating him on his bad choices in life. As a non-LEO, I'd interpret the sudden rush at me as deadly intent and shoot him in the grape then and there.

Razor:

I just presumed military, good point he may have looking at LEO.

Terry

[Smokin Joe]

LEO, MIL, PMC, or PSD doesn't matter to me; I purposely left it open as to not restrict the information or dicussion flow. We all know what we can and cannot do. So if you can or want drop kick the guy in the nuts I say "right on"; The only hard rule I would like on this scenario is that you cannot shoot them until you detect a deadly threat....interpet that however you would like.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by aricbcool

Smokin'

Have we fixed bayonets? Assuming full battle rattle, we can assume optional items like flashlights, knives, etc.?

I'm glad you posted this. These scenario threads are great.

Regards,
Aric

Whatever you would carry.

If you have a bayonet fixed then so be it.. however I don't know of any LEO agencies or SWAT teams that allow fixed bayonets also I haven't seen any photo's of Soldiers in the box walking around the streets with fixed bayonets so guage your own realism. If it is prossible and PROBABLE then go with it if not check yourself.

Also use what little info I have given you to sum up your answer. Because this will be all you would normally get in the real world (actually you would be luck to learn that the guy may have just stabbed someone )

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Perhaps now days, most LEOs would have a Taser and use it. If not the old kick in the gonads would do it for both LEOs and Military. Of course, there are the ASP type clubs too; however. with rifle/carbine in hand this isn't easy to do either.

Yes, the M-1 Garand or M-14 would be great for a butt stroke; however. I wouldn't trust an M-16 type weapon to do the same job as they would. I'd be more apt to use the muzzle pokes to the solar plexus or face/head.

Perhaps, we should think about fixing bayonets in the military, when on patrol in areas where close contact with people is common. Nobody likes the idea of getting stuck with the old "cold steel!"

Kicks are great; however, IMHO they often expose one to a lot of good defensive tactics by the subject.

There is also MACE or Pepper canisters that could be used; however, I have witnessed the use of these weapons many times, where the gas blew or bounced back into the face of the person using it. One has to be careful when using these.

Of course, there is always the 3 Cell Mag-light!

[VelociMorte]

OK, I've got good intel telling me he's a bad guy, and he's non-compliant....if he's half my size, I'm raming him in the solar-plexus or throat with my rifle muzzle a couple times. He'll comply when he starts having trouble breathing. If he's twice my size and coming at me, I'm not too keen on being disarmed and shot with my own weapon, so I'm inclined to disconnect his central processing unit, somewhere around C1, with a round through he face. I'm getting too old to be wrestling around with someone twice my size.

[aricbcool]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Whatever you would carry.

If you have a bayonet fixed then so be it.. however I don't know of any LEO agencies or SWAT teams that allow fixed bayonets also I haven't seen any photo's of Soldiers in the box walking around the streets with fixed bayonets so guage your own realism. If it is prossible and PROBABLE then go with it if not check yourself.

Also use what little info I have given you to sum up your answer. Because this will be all you would normally get in the real world (actually you would be luck to learn that the guy may have just stabbed someone )

Thanks for the clarification. The equipment part is where my lack of experience shows through. Keeping that in mind... here goes:

Muzzle strikes and kicks to the groin sound good to keep the guy at a distance. If he gets in close, I would adjust the grip on my rifle, using it as a striking/leveraging tool to bring him down. In close, the metal action area of the m4, or the muzzle area could work well to the face. Knees, elbows, and a transition to the knife if it gets real bad. One thing that hasn't been mentioned that I would think would come in useful would be a headbutt or two with the kevlar helmet I'd be wearing.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the above by the Pros is welcome and appreciated.

--Aric

[JPH]

“You have someone at rifle point”
“Individual starts walking towards you while challenging you to shoot them”

I ask how far away it the person and do I at ANYTIME confirm a weapon on his person?

Note: I have NOT been in a gunfight, so I am basing this only on training evolutions.

For myself if anyone is with in 15 meters of my person, and threatening me in any way, (especially if I am in full battle rattle where you would have to be motivated or insane or both to threaten me), I consider them a deadly threat.

I base this statement off a 7-meter knife vs. handgun drill we run at one of the training centers I attended for my PSD/EP training. The way the drill is ran, you set up your armed person with weapon holstered in concealment (daily carry mode), 7 meters from a B27E target then you set up your assailant with a paint stick with red dye, paint, or lipstick on it 7 meters to the 3 or 9 o’clock of the shooter on or 1’ behind the firing line. The shooter and the assailant start talking to each other then at any moment the assailant with out warning charges the shooter.

The goal and point for the demonstration is to show that only well trained persons can see a threat, decided to act, clear-web-draw-aim-engage with 2+ rounds before a attacker with a knife can start cutting them.

There is a name to this drill however at this time I have forgotten it, and there are other ways to do it but this is the simplest to describe in writing. If I can remember the name or think of any other details I might have left out I will edit or post them later.

With all that said I would take in to consideration that with M4 in hand draw time would be eliminated along with target acquisition time and so on. There for the attacker might get a few more seconds to live.

For half my size I would evaluate the person approach if I think I can take them with blunt or edged weapons fighting then I might attempt to end it that way. If the person seems to be acquiring a weapon on their approach or if the person dwarfs me then I would be more likely to engaging with my rifle, if/when the person was closer than 10-15 meters. There by eliminating the hand to hand fighting of your scenario…

The principle paid us to be there, my teammates are counting on me, and I want to go home. I may lose the job may never work again, may face criminal or civil suit? Who know what would happen OR what I will really do, but that’s what we are trained to do in PSD.

LEO and Military may take issue or have other ways to deal with this. I am low man on the pole in EP. I have not work out side the US only local jobs more as on the job training as of this writing as I am still in training and what I do not know would fill volumes.

but thats what I think i would do...


JPH out

[Huey14]

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Huey14

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

Just remember, you're responsible for that bullet until it comes to a complete stop.

[504PIR]

I'm assuming by the scenerio that the person is ether is within range of or coming within range of a muzzle strike to the head. Which is my course of action.

I was sent to a H2H course where we did do quite a bit of muzzle strikes. Even with the protective helemts on, a light strike to the head with a rifle barrel will clean your clock.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Huey14

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

Most LEOs are prevented by department regulations from using "warning shots." If a firearm is to be used, it should be fired at center mass or head shot if one suspects body armor.