Another "How do you do it"

[GackMan]

I was re-reading this thread I was thinking.... http://professionalsoldiers.com/foru...ead.php?t=2567

Do you strip your mag when re-loading? I'm talking about shooting a pistol to slide lock, not a tactical/top-off re-load.

I notice many people trust their mag to drop free. Has anyone ever went back to re-load and the empty mag is still in the gun?

Before the begins:

I'm a proponent of stripping the mag. Although allowing it to drop free is much faster, I'm a fan of surety over speed.

Shoot to slide lock (oh shit)
- Press mag release and release grip with support hand.
- Support hand passes mag well, grab and strip the magazine (if it falls free and is already gone then that is OK continue with the motion)
- Retrieve fresh fresh mag, index finger along front of mag and bring directly to mag well
- Vigorously seat magazine into mag well
- Reach over top and release slide (do not ride forward)
- Continue shooting bad guy as needed

[jbour13]

I went through a shooting course that preached grabbing the empty mag and manually removing it from the pistol in the reverse of which you draw a fresh one. Not saying that you place the spare in a mag holder, you just go to the full extent (chopping motion) and fling the mag away.

The instructor's justification was that if you trust it to be a drop free, it won't. If it does drop free and you fumble fook around with your spare and drop it in the heat of battle you may grab the first one you see. Or ram the spare into the one you trusted to drop out.

May be BS, but makes sense grip and force the empty mag since its of no immediate use if your shooting a threat. What kills this is if you remove and throw away the mag with rounds remaining. Not good to leave ammo behind. Kinda situation specific. Dump pouches make sense for scenarios like this.

I can see how some shooting sports like USPSA can screw this up in people that are trained to dropping mags to the ground. I'm unsure if this is a match rule for some other shooting orgs. USPSA penalizes shooters for this. IPSC, dump it and load a new one, fairly simple. Of course that's a game, but could still mess up that muscle memory (granted you've practiced enough to create it).

Interested in seeing other good methods people use.

[Team Sergeant]

GM,

I have never trained, or have had any related training to "stripping" an empty magazine from a handgun.

But then again I've never taught TAP-RACK-BANG, SLAP, SHAKE, RATTLE, PRAY and a few dozen other methods of handgun reloading or malfunction drills.

If you own a weapon that you would use in a defensive or offensive manner, and when empty, does not freely fall from the weapon with one press of the mag release, well, good luck to you sir!

Just as not all cars are designed for the Indy 500, not all handguns are designed for combat. A pen-gun will kill, but I would not carry one if my life might depend on it.
If one must "invent" techniques or tactics to make-up for a weapons lack of design, you have a pen-gun.

Team Sergeant

[The Reaper]

I have to agree.

Sounds like a problem for Glock owners, and old Euro pistoleros.

TR

[VelociMorte]

I got into the habit of pulling the mag with my support hand while holding a fresh one for insertion, with my first Glock 17. Good weapon, put the early mags didn't always drop free. I carry a G19 now. The mags always drop free, but the habit has stuck with me, and there is no wasted motion.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by VelociMorte

I got into the habit of pulling the mag with my support hand while holding a fresh one for insertion, with my first Glock 17. Good weapon, put the early mags didn't always drop free. I carry a G19 now. The mags always drop free, but the habit has stuck with me, and there is no wasted motion.

Trust me, if your hand is dragging a mag out of the weapon on the reload, it is losing to one going directly to the fresh mag.

I would train-out of that habit.

TR

[skibum]

I have never trained to strip the mag out unless necessary (it became necessary on a few occasions shooting the issued S&W autos when I was in the academy).

Recently, I heard what sounds like a very good rationale for NOT doing so, especially in training: when the magazine is manually stripped, it's held by the base, right? And if you drop it or fling it down, what's most likely to strike the deck first? The feed lips. In combat, you're unlikely to care too much about the condition of the feed lips of an empty magazine, but how do you train yourself to do that without many repetitions at the range, thereby damaging the feed lips? I don't really like the concept of "training" and "duty" magazines that much, because how am I to be confident in my duty mags without shooting them alot?

(Okay, I do have some crapped out magazines, clearly marked, with which to train malfunction clearing, but if I'm spending time at the range clearing unintended (and NOT operator-induced) malfunctions, it's time to re-evaluate my equipment.)

Bottom line, sounds unnecessary, and there's at least a decent reason for not doing so.

[G]

I was initially trained on the BHP to strip the mag out (circa 1993), but since, on the G19, no such thing - press the button and have your other hand on (or heading to) the spare mag.

I was also trained to take a look at the gun whenever it stopped firing - to ascertain the reason for the stoppage.

The look entails a quick tilt of the shooting hand to glance at the chamber and see if the slide is in battery, locked to the rear or somewhere in-between. Appropriate actions to get back into the fight follow.

BTW a failure-to-extract would require the operator to forcefully strip the magazine out.

Skibum: We use "duty mags" and "training mags", because we train under combat conditions, and as such, mags can (and do) get damaged. When they do get damaged, my guys learn pretty quick how to solve magazine related malfunctions. There is no problem however, with checking duty mags for function by putting however-many rounds through 'em. But when it comes to dropping them in the dirt / gravel, having guys step on them during movement exercises etc...etc....our choice was to keep the duty mags seperate.

Take Care...

G

[GackMan]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

If you own a weapon that you would use in a defensive or offensive manner, and when empty, does not freely fall from the weapon with one press of the mag release, well, good luck to you sir!

Just as not all cars are designed for the Indy 500, not all handguns are designed for combat. A pen-gun will kill, but I would not carry one if my life might depend on it.
If one must "invent" techniques or tactics to make-up for a weapons lack of design, you have a pen-gun.

Well, I can use any gun I want as long as it is a Glock 21 or 22.

I think the technique goes back to the days of generation 1 non-drop free mags... uh, not dropping free.

I had to learn the technique when I got here 4 years ago... 10 years of just hitting the mag release went right out the window. Now I'm re-programed. I pass my off hand along the mag well as I am reaching for my fresh one second habit now.

I've had to strip the mag in the past, but only a couple times. Each time it was after a good 6-8 hours at the range and the mags had been dropped, kicked, stepped on, etc. all day.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by G

BTW a failure-to-extract would require the operator to forcefully strip the magazine out.
G

A failure-to-extract on which weapon? A BHP?

A failure-to-extract is usually caused by by very few reasons. One is operator head space and the other is usually a catastrophic situation. Neither requires an operator to forcefully strip the magazine out.

TS

[G]

TS

Have seen a number of failures to extract in a number of different pistols over the years.

Failure to extract can be caused by a number of factors:

1. Broken Extractor (Catastrophic)
2. Damaged rim on the casing in the chamber
3. Excessive build-up of grime behind the extractor claw
4. For reasons I have been unable to determine (one-off incidents)

and the reasons you mentioned.

The condition of the gun would be such that a live round will be pushing against the empty casing in the chamber.

In this condition the magazine will not drop free.

Assuming you do not have a backup gun:

1. Depress magazine release.
2. Pull hard on magazine (this removes the round that was being pushed against the empty casing).
3. Slide will drop onto empty casing (in most cases - except for a broken extractor, the extractor will re-engage).
4. Reinsert magazine (or insert fresh magazine).
5. Rack slide (hopefully gets rid of empty casing, puts live round into chamber).
6. Get back into the fight.

The magazine does not need to be completely removed from the gun, just pulled down till the top round in the magazine clears the breech face and the slide drops.

This is far quicker to do then to type.

G

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by G

TS

Have seen a number of failures to extract in a number of different pistols over the years.

Failure to extract can be caused by a number of factors:

1. Broken Extractor (Catastrophic)
2. Damaged rim on the casing in the chamber
3. Excessive build-up of grime behind the extractor claw
4. For reasons I have been unable to determine (one-off incidents)

and the reasons you mentioned.

The condition of the gun would be such that a live round will be pushing against the empty casing in the chamber.

In this condition the magazine will not drop free.

Assuming you do not have a backup gun:

1. Depress magazine release.
2. Pull hard on magazine (this removes the round that was being pushed against the empty casing).
3. Slide will drop onto empty casing (in most cases - except for a broken extractor, the extractor will re-engage).
4. Reinsert magazine (or insert fresh magazine).
5. Rack slide (hopefully gets rid of empty casing, puts live round into chamber).
6. Get back into the fight.

The magazine does not need to be completely removed from the gun, just pulled down till the top round in the magazine clears the breech face and the slide drops.

This is far quicker to do then to type.

G

G

I've seen this happen only a few times, most times I've seen it, it was due to operator head space and timing; i.e. not cleaning the extractor claw, once or twice it was a bent extractor claw and as you mentioned a ripped case rim. Either way in a gun fight you’re pretty much fooked. This is not a malfunction drill I’d train for as it is so infrequent.

Also I would never view it as an “immediate” action drill but a “remedial” action. The difference being with this type of malfunction you are effectively “out of the fight” until the weapons is cleared, the reason is found, fixed and then back in service.

In any case forcefully removing the mag will do nothing to remediate the malfunction.

What I would do is:

1. Pull the slide to the rear with the non-firing hand.

2. With the firing hand ,turn the weapon upside down to allow anything to fall from the weapon and watch if anything does fall.

3. Bring the weapon back to the firing position. If the weapon does not fire it is time for remedial action.

TS

[G]

"This is not a malfunction drill I’d train for as it is so infrequent."

Agreed - something to keep in toolbox, just in case Murph is around.

G

[TXSWAT]

My mags usually drop free, but in the instance that it does not I use the pinky of the hand holding the fresh mag and use it to strip the empty before inserting the new one. Just another tool for the box.