08-19-2005, 21:43
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#1
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Suburban Philadelphia, Pa. / MGRS 18SVK 11 05
Posts: 122
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Malfunctions...how do you remediate???
A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.
I've always used the standard:
Tap/Rack/Reload for an empty weapon...
Tap/Rack for a simple malfunction...
Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack for the more complex malfunctions.
I'm curious to hear how you guys do it. Anyone using anything different???
ER
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Endorphin Rush is offline
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08-19-2005, 21:49
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Endorphin Rush
A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.
I've always used the standard:
Tap/Rack/Reload for an empty weapon...
Tap/Rack for a simple malfunction...
Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack for the more complex malfunctions.
I'm curious to hear how you guys do it. Anyone using anything different???
ER
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I'm not sure what you're using for a combat handgun but if I was running through all those malfunction drills I'd be selling my combat handgun...... 
Why does everyone "tap" first, on a handgun?????
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Team Sergeant is offline
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08-19-2005, 22:02
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#3
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Because failure to feed is usually caused by not properly loading the mag into the weapon in the first place. I generaly don't have that problem. 
"Tap, rack, reload for an empty weapon"? Hell no! Just change mags and let 'er eat!
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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08-19-2005, 22:04
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#4
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Suburban Philadelphia, Pa. / MGRS 18SVK 11 05
Posts: 122
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TS,
Funny you should be the one to ask which handgun, ( I know where you stand on this) I'm using a 1911.
The good news is that I've only had ONE malfunction in thousands of rounds. However, I/we do train often with dummy rounds in our mags to assure proficiency in malfuntions remediation in the event it should occur whilst the shitis hitting the fan.
I've been taught, and always practiced, tapping the mag base plate first to seat a non-seated magazine. I've been taught that in some weapons, especially those in which the magazines are not drop-free, it would be difficult to assess and otherwise time consuming to do anything but fix the problem by simply tapping to reseat.
Please fire away with anything you can offer in regards to the "tap" issue, or otherwise.
Last edited by Endorphin Rush; 08-19-2005 at 22:06.
Reason: spelling
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Endorphin Rush is offline
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08-19-2005, 22:10
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#5
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,811
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I'm with NDD, you need to define your terms, because when I run the gun dry, I draw the fresh mag, eject the empty mag, slam the fresh mag home, release the slide (your choice of technique), and continue shooting as necessary.
Why tap and rack before reloading if you are empty and locked back?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-19-2005, 22:25
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#6
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Suburban Philadelphia, Pa. / MGRS 18SVK 11 05
Posts: 122
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NDD,
I am in agreement with your assessment of the failure to feed problem. And I've not had that particular problem either. 
I believe the drill (TAP/rack) was designed to cover all the bases and meant to correct most deficiences without the need for an on-the-spot assessment. I agree with the Team Sergeant that it should not be needed in handguns. The only explaination that was ever provided to me was that of someone unintentionally hitting the mag release on a non-drop- free weapon and unseating the mag slightly.
NDD, we train to clear all malfuctions the same, to include empty weapons, only because it is nearly impossible in total darkness to know if the weapon is simply empty or has malfuntioned. The idea is that, if the weapon is NOT empty, but has in fact malfunctioned, simply reloading and making her eat will not work (atleast in the event of a more complex malfunction). In the event that the slide is felt to be locked back upon attempting to rack, simply do a reload as Reaper describes above.
Keep it coming...
Last edited by Endorphin Rush; 08-19-2005 at 22:52.
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Endorphin Rush is offline
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08-19-2005, 22:34
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#7
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Suburban Philadelphia, Pa. / MGRS 18SVK 11 05
Posts: 122
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Appreciate all the replies, gentlemen!!
The reason I posted this thread was that a somewhat different drill is being taught by Jeff Gonzales. I won't go into any detail outside of PM, only because I'm not sure that he would want his stuff put out there for everyone on the Net. His classes are LE/and MIL only. Don't want to step on my dick with Mr. Gonzales.
In any case, please continue with any feedback or comments.
Reaper, TS, NDD, does my explaination of using Tap/Rack for an empty weapon make any sense???
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Endorphin Rush is offline
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08-20-2005, 08:13
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#8
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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ER,
If one learns to properly insert a loaded mag into a weapon it would negate the need to “tap” when there’s a problem. If a person cannot properly perform this simply task then he or she should not be going into harms way.
I've never taught anyone to “tap” the mag of a loaded handgun for a malfunction drill.
When I viewed your “Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack” I must admit I was laughing. (Did you read this in some "REAL COMBAT" magazine? )
Just for you, because you made me laugh, I’ll tell you what I’d do for all my malfunctions:
Handgun malfunctions; leave gun pointing out toward tgt, arm at full extension, turn gun 180 degrees so that the slide is “upside down” rack the weapon, turn gun “upright” and continue to fire. Takes about half a second when practiced.
I also agree with TR and NDD’s method, change mags!
If someone is teaching you to clear a handgun in the “upright” position all I’ll say is good luck.
K.I.S.S.
Team Sergeant
BTW, whom ever taught you this is more than welcome to come on here and discuss his merits of some of the methods you posted. I'd be more than happy to have a public chat with them.......
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Team Sergeant is offline
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08-20-2005, 10:07
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#9
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet
Posts: 1,495
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Failure to feed. I have noticed in the civilian world, magazine are ignored as if they have some sort life time maintainence design from the manufacture. I have only seen military folks talking magazines apart for cleaning, inspecting and lubrication. Magazines need love and care too!
I have seen magazine stick causing a failure to feed from improper maintenance, dirt, damaged or wierd loading (ie; jamming 22 rds in a 20 rd mag). The simpliest solution is what has been suggested, drop it, and insert a new mag.
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HOLLiS is offline
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08-20-2005, 10:11
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#10
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,205
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Seems like this is a very convoluted version of the LE method of TAP, RACK,BANG.
And TS is correct the TRB method is to tilt gun, rack, and start firing again. My apologies for not recalling who developed this method. TRB came about in LE when LE began issuing semi-autos.
I have also found that the TRB method also works when one is trying to employ a sucker punch to an opponent. Tap on his shoulder........draw back your fist.........and BANG
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CoLawman is offline
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08-20-2005, 10:14
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#11
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pacific NorthWet
Posts: 1,495
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Endorphin Rush
A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.
ER
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Opps, Endorphin Rush I forgot to ask about this combat course, was it civilian, LEO, or Military? First time I shot a LEO combat course, I did it the way I learned in the military..... Deffinately not the way they (LEO) wanted it done. Very different thinking.
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HOLLiS is offline
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08-20-2005, 13:35
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#12
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The state that can't count it's ballots.
Posts: 429
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Handgun malfunctions; leave gun pointing out toward tgt, arm at full extension, turn gun 180 degrees so that the slide is “upside down” rack the weapon, turn gun “upright” and continue to fire. Takes about half a second when practiced.
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TS, why would you turn the slide upside down?
__________________
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me".
-Isaiah 6:8
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Spartan359 is offline
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08-20-2005, 14:32
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#13
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 4,530
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I believe I understand ER's 'Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack' sequence (correct me if I'm wrong, ER). That is a clearance drill taught by some instructors for double feed malfunctions. Not sure about the first 'tap' ER cited for this drill, but since the mag doesn't always drop free with a double feed, you may have to pull the mag (the 'rip') out of the well. Before you can do this, though, you need to lock the slide to the rear so its not exerting pressure on the trapped round and hence the magazine. After the fouled mag is free, you rack the slide 2 or 3 times to clear the stuck round (hopefully), then feed a fresh mag, rack the slide the get back in the fight. The most important thing about this particular drill is that its conducted after moving behind cover, not standing out in the open since it takes so damned long to do.
Spartan, as for turning the pistol upside down, think gravity and clearing rounds from the chamber.
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Razor is offline
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08-20-2005, 14:41
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,811
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spartan359
TS, why would you turn the slide upside down?
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Do things fall up in your world?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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08-20-2005, 14:43
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#15
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The state that can't count it's ballots.
Posts: 429
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Razor
Spartan, as for turning the pistol upside down, think gravity and clearing rounds from the chamber.
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Roger that. I thought that's what it was for, but I figured I'd ask just in case it was for something else. Thanks Razor.
__________________
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me".
-Isaiah 6:8
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Spartan359 is offline
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