Tri-ing for SF

[Big Chief]

Good Morning,

I know guys in 20th who say they all run marathons and guys from other groups who do Triathlons. I was considering training for a half-ironman as part of my rehab/gear-up fro SFAS (plus, PT and tons of rucking of course).

Is Tri training/marathoning good cross-training for SF?

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Big Chief

Good Morning,

I know guys in 20th who say they all run marathons and guys from other groups who do Triathlons. I was considering training for a half-ironman as part of my rehab/gear-up fro SFAS (plus, PT and tons of rucking of course).

Is Tri training/marathoning good cross-training for SF?

Do you see a lot of long distance swimming, biking, and running long distances without a ruck in your SFAS prep handbook?

Or would the time be better spent working on your APFT events and rucking?

I would say that if you already have a Beret and a Tab, it is a fine hobby.

TR

[Razor]

The principles of exercise--PROVRBS:

Progression

Regularity

Overload

Variety

Recovery

Balance

Specificity

[jatx]

Originally Posted by Razor

The principles of exercise--PROVRBS:

Progression

Regularity

Overload

Variety

Recovery

Balance

Specificity

Razor, I really like this. Where does it come from?

[Leozinho]

Originally Posted by Razor

The principles of exercise--PROVRBS:

Progression

Regularity

Overload

Variety

Recovery

Balance

Specificity

I think crosstraining is good. To be sure, rucking (and having the tough feet that go along with it) is by far the most important skill at SFAS and it should be your priority.

But running is also a component. (I have no idea how important it is, as some very slow, overweight guys in my hut got selected. They were noticeably thinner at the end, though.) No biking out there, of course, but cycling improves your legs' muscular endurance and your aerobic capacity. Swimming is a good workout, too.

It's not a perfect correlation between rucking and running, but there is a correlation from what I've seen. I was a pretty fair runner, and none of those slow runners outrucked me, that's for sure. (The wispy thin guys that run well tend not to be that good with the ruck, as you can imagine.)

And with the half-Iron, you are almost approaching gut-check distance, depending on your fitness level. That distance is a breeze for some, but probably you are going to have to suffer a bit in training and in the race, which can only be good for strengthening the ol' intestinal fortitude. As a civilian I've suffered more mountain climbing, running ultras and doing an Iron distance tri than I have in SOPC 1 and 2, Selection or Phase 2. (Sleep deprivation is one thing I never praticed before as a civilian.) I think all that experience has helped me so far in my short military career.

[jsragman]

Originally Posted by jatx

Razor, I really like this. Where does it come from?

It's in the Physical Fitness FM (FM 21-20)

Derek

[Razor]

Originally Posted by jatx

Razor, I really like this. Where does it come from?

The US Army Master Fitness Trainer course.

Leozinho, I agree that crosstraining is great for preventing overuse injuries, strengthening and stretching stabilizing muscles and connective tissue, and helping build or maintain overall fitness. However, if someone is training for a specific event (in this case, SFAS and the rucking involved), I wouldn't recommend diverting their training focus from the primary event they will be expected to perform, to events they won't. Some swimming, some running and some biking would be great adjunct activities to toss into the overall fitness plan, but to change the focus of training from humping a ruck cross-country to an unrelated sporting event is not a wise decision, IMO.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Razor is right on.

My encouragement to vary workouts with alternate events is to keep the program interesting.

Nothing wrong with it, as long as you don't lose focus. You still need to focus on the primary events (pass the PT test and RUCK all day while doing land nav).

Less stressful events (biking, swimming, etc) are good alternatives for light days and variety, especially while recovering from an injury.

[Detcord]

Originally Posted by Big Chief

Good Morning,

I know guys in 20th who say they all run marathons and guys from other groups who do Triathlons. I was considering training for a half-ironman as part of my rehab/gear-up fro SFAS (plus, PT and tons of rucking of course).

Is Tri training/marathoning good cross-training for SF?

No.

You've had surgery from doing too much too soon. Running 3-6 miles and rucking with heavy loads will be hard enough on the injured area, let alone doing half or full-length marathons.

Cycling now would be good to help maintain your aerobic power and general "health," while you lower extremities heal. However, cycling overall does not translate very well to running (lack of specificity) or rucking any more than swimming helps you hold 30 mph in a bicycle race.

Long runs will pound your lower legs beyond belief. How are you going to do lots of rucking along with half/full marathon training and expect the permanently weakened areas in your lower extremities to recover???

Additionally, "true" marathoners have very poor leg strength. Huh??? Don't legs have to be strong to run a marathon??? Not at all. Studies over the years have shown marathoners to have significantly lower leg strength that sedentary people who don't exercise at all. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes...




<"STRENGTH"-------------------------------------------------------"ENDURANCE">


Remember the number lines in grade school??? Strength and endurance are opposites just like positive and negative numbers. When you train for strength, endurance suffers, when you train for endurance, strength suffers.

As much as people try, the human body usually only does one thing well at a time. That's why you never see people who can squat 485 lbs run 2:30:00 marathons and vice versa.

In the above example, who's legs will support a heavy load the best???

Do short runs 3-6 miles fast (6.0-7 min miles) This will give you all the aerobic power you will ever need, and give you plenty of time to do your rucking. Once or twice a month, do a PT test in the correct order. Smoke the 2 mile run as fast as possible. Keep a PT logbook. Log pertinant data like time/distance/course, weather conditions, and other variables like sleep, recent injuiries, nutrition, etc.

Look back on your logs over time to see how much recovery you need to perform well. A logbook with detailed entries will serve you quite well in your overall growth as an athlete/soldier.

You won't make it if you can't support a heavy load. Most of the time, you should be rucking and developing thick callouses, since the short runs don't take very much time to complete. Also, not mentioned too often, you should be able to do at least 10-15 wide-grip pullups when you report for training as well. The more the better.

Most important are a heavy ALICE pack, broken-in boots and serviceable socks. There are no secrets or tricks that will help you pass except good overall fitness and using those three items regularly.

[Tubbs]

It seems that there is a major focus on SF training through rucking. Is this not a common thing in the Army? It seems to me that if you are active duty infantry you should already know how to hold your own on a ruck if you are think about SF. When I was in the Corps and we were doing workups we did at least one 12mi or more forced march a week. Foot movements of 6mi or more with full load were a daily occurence when on a field op. Of course my BN SgtMaj was there when Rome was sacked so that might have had something to do with it...

[NousDefionsDoc]

12 miles is a warm up on an A-Team...and the weights you will encounter operationally could cripple a Missouri mule. If you research preparation for WWII units, you will notice they all had one exercise in common - forced marches. Put your ruck on and follow the program. If you get the rucking right, running will be easier. In fact, everything will be easier. rucking is the King of the Hill when it comes to conditioning - that's why we do it.

[fusion94]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

...and the weights you will encounter operationally could cripple a Missouri mule.

I cannot emphasize how accurate this is. During the first Gulf War we'd run some clearing operations dismounted and between our flak vest, and LBE's fully loaded you're talking about 30-40 pounds just on that alone. Add a 120-140 pound rucksack on top of that and you're talking brutal weights.

.02 FWIW

[longtab]

Originally Posted by Razor

The principles of exercise--PROVRBS:

Progression

Regularity

Overload

Variety

Recovery

Balance

Specificity

Specificity is right on.

Want to improve your push-ups? Do push-ups. Want to improve ruck times? Ruck. Want to drink more beer? Drink beer!

Sorry to post so late... I just got here!

[NousDefionsDoc]

10. Marathon running damages the liver and gall bladder and alters biochemical markers adversely. HDL is lowered, LDL is increased, Red blood cell counts and white blood cell counts fall. The liver is damaged and gall bladder function is decreased. Testosterone decreases.

From Wu, Worl J Gastroenterol. 2004 Sep 15: 10 (18): 2711-4, "RESULTS: Total bilirubin (BIL-T), direct bilirubin (BIL-D), alkaline phosphatase (ALP), aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) increased statistically significantly (P<0.05) the race. Significant declines (P<0.05) in red blood cell (RBC), hemoglobin (Hb) and hematocrit (Hct) were detected two days and nine days d after the race. 2 d after the race, total protein (TP), concentration of albumin and globulin decreased significantly. While BIL, BIL-D and ALP recovered to their original levels. High-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) remained unchanged immediately after the race, but it was significantly decreased on the second and ninth days after the race. CONCLUSION: Ultra-marathon running is associated with a wide range of significant changes in hematological parameters, several of which are injury related. To provide appropriate health care and intervention, the man who receives athletes on high frequent training program high intensity training programs must monitor their liver and gallbladder function."

9. Marathon running causes acute and severe muscle damage. Repetitive injury causes infiltration of collagen (connective tissue) into muscle fibers.

From Warhol et al Am J Pathol. 1985 Feb: 118 (2): 331-9, "Muscle from runners showed post-race ultrastructural changes of focal fiber injury and repair: intra- and extracellular edema with endothelial injury; myofibrillar lysis, dilation and disruption of the T-tubule system, and focal mitochondrial degeneration without inflammatory infiltrate (1-3 days). The mitochondrial and myofibrillar damage showed progressive repair by 3-4 weeks. Late biopsies showed central nuclei and satellite cells characteristic of the regenerative response (8-12 weeks). Muscle from veteran runners showed intercellular collagen deposition suggestive of a fibrotic response to repetitive injury. Control tissue from nonrunners showed none of these findings."

8. Marathon running induces kidney disfunction (renal abnormalities).

From Neyiackas and Bauer, South Med J. 1981 Dec; 74 (12): 1457-60, "All postrace urinalyses were grossly abnormal...We conclude that renal function abnormalities occur in marathon runners and that the severity of the abnormality is temperature-dependent."

7. Marathon running causes acute microthrombosis in the vascular system.

From Fagerhol et al Scan J Clin Invest. 2005; 65 (3): 211-20, "During the marathon, half-marathon, the 30-km run, the ranger-training course and the VO2max exercise, calprotectin levels increased 96.3-fold, 13.3-fold, 20.1-fold, 7.5-fold and 3.4-fold, respectively. These changes may reflect damage to the tissues or vascular endothelium, causing microthrombi with subsequent activation of neutrophils."

6. Marathon running elevates markers of cancer. S100beta is one of these markers. Tumor necrosis factor, TNF-alpha, is another.

From Deichmann et al in Melanoma Res. 2001 June; 11 (3): 291-6. "In metastatic melanoma S100beta as well as melanoma inhibitory activity (MIA) are elevated in the serum in the majority of patients. Elevation has been found to correlate with shorter survival, and changes in these parameters in the serum during therapy were recently reported to predict therapeutic outcome in advanced disease."

From Santos et al Life Sci. 2004 September: 75 (16): 1917:24, "After the test (a 30km run), athletes from the control group presented an increase in plasma CK (4.4-fold), LDH (43%), PGE2 6.6-fold) and TNF-alpha (2.34-fold) concentrations, indicating a high level of cell injury and inflammation."

5. Marathon running damages your brain. The damage resembles acute brain trauma. Marathon runners have elevated S100beta, a marker of brain damage and blood brain barrier disfunction. There is S100beta again, a marker of cancer and of brain damage.

From Marchi, et al Restor Neurol Neurosci, 2003; 21 (3-4): 109-21, "S100beta in serum is an early marker of BBB openings that may precede neuronal damage and may influence therapeutic strategies. Secondary, massive elevations in S100beta are indicators of prior brain damage and bear clinical significance as predictors of poor outcome or diagnostic means to differentiate extensive damage from minor, transient impairment."

Other studies indicate confusion in post-event marathon runners.

4. Marathons damage your heart. From Whyte, et al Med Sci Sports Ecerc, 2001 May, 33 (5) 850-1, "Echocardiographic studies report cardiac dysfunction following ultra-endurance exercise in trained individuals. Ironman and half-Ironman competition resulted in reversible abnormalities in resting left ventricular diastolic and systolic function. Results suggest that myocardial damage may be, in part, responsible for cardiac dysfunction, although the mechanisms responsible for this cardiac damage remain to be fully elucidated."

3. Endurance athletes have more spine degeneration.

From Schmitt et al Int J Sports Med. 2005 Jul; 26 (6): 457-63, "The aim of this study was to assess bone mineral density (BMD) and degenerative changes in the lumbar spine in male former elite athletes participating in different track and field disciplines and to determine the influence of body composition and degenerative changes on BMD. One hundred and fifty-nine former male elite athletes (40 throwers, 97 jumpers, 22 endurance athletes) were studied. ...Throwers had a higher body mass index than jumpers and endurance athletes. Throwers and jumpers had higher BMD (T-LWS) than endurance athletes. Bivariate analysis revealed a negative correlation of BMD (T-score) with age and a positive correlation with BMD and Kellgren score (p < 0.05). Even after multiple adjustment for confounders lumbar spine BMD is significantly higher in throwers, pole vaulters, and long- and triple jumpers than in marathon athletes."

The number two reason not to run marathons,

2. At least four particiants of the Boston Marathon have died of brain cancer in the past 10 years. Purely anecdotal, but consistent with the elevated S100beta counts and TKN-alpha measures. Perhaps also connected to the microthrombi of the endothelium found in marathoners.

And now ladies and gentlemen the number one reason not to run marathons,

1. The first marathon runner, Phidippides, collapsed and died at the finish of his race. [ Jaworski, Curr Sports Med Rep. 1005 June; 4 (3), 137-43.]

Now there is a recommendation for a healthy activity. The original participant died in the event. But, this is not quite so unusual; many of the running and nutritional gurus of the past decade or two died rather young. Pritikin, Sheehy, Fixx, and Atkins, among many other originators of "healthy" practices died at comparatively young ages. Jack LaLanne, the only well-known guru to advocate body building, will outlive us all.




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[jbour13]

NDD.....thanks for the info. I wouldn't run it based on the fact it's called a..........marathon.

I ran my first and last marathon in Hawaii. I did it to get the 4 day pass my CO had promised all that did it. I spent that 4 day pass in the tub drinking and soaking the aches away.

Next Tuesday I showed up at work and took 4-5 minutes to tackle the stairs at BN HQ.

I miss D-quad and the rats that run across the ceiling at night.