Pistol Coaching Via Email

**Peregrino** · 07-08-2005, 19:32

Okay guys - This is a "cut & paste from a PM, sent to me by one of our "neophytes". He didn't feel that his "problem" warranted the attention of the general populace. I (naturally) disagree for a number of reasons:

1. I am a competent shooter and a capable shooting instuctor. I am not God's gift to pistoleros nor am I the "great guru". There are a lot of people (especially in here) who are equally competent - or better - who might be able to explain things with their own twist so that you grasp it better than if I were to attempt it. Denying them the opportunity to participate is depriving yourself of an invaluable resource.

Edited to add: And the rest of us a lot of fun!

2. Quality learning is a synergistic experience. The more input, the greater the benefit. It's like a chain reaction. Of course not everything you get will be valuable - some of it may be pure BS. However, with sufficient input from enough different qualified experts, the true BS is exposed and you are not led (too far) astray. And no matter where you go for learning, you are still responsible for what you learn and incorporate into your own technique. Life and learning is like an "a la carte" menu - smorgasbords are my definition of heaven. Single sourcing may be convenient, but it's very limiting.

3. I have no intention of posting the marksmanship training manual it sounds like you need/want. I can't remember everything off the top of my head, and I hate typing/writing. If we get enough participation, I won't have to and you will get the benefit of everybody's wisdom.

4. There is such a thing as dumb questions. All of us ask a lot of them in the course of a lifetime. I'm (mostly) a nice guy - I deleted your name to save a little embarassment. Say thank you and don't do it again. The questions you ask are fairly common. The answers will benefit more than just you. Sometimes you have to take one for the team. Next time suck it up and lay it on the line. (After you've checked to make sure your question has not been answered elsewhere!)

Nuff said. I will give my answers to your questions in a subsequent post. I'm tossing this out to let the rest of the guys chew it over while I answer - I type like pond water moves. Not very fast. FWIW - Peregrino

Peregrino,

I hope you don't mind me bothering you but I have a couple of shooting / handgun questions that have been troubling me for a few weeks. I am writing you a PM because I do not know if they warrant beginning a thread dedicated to my problems.

Here goes:
I shot every Tuesday almost exclusively indoors all winter. By May I pretty consistently shot a dead center 3 inch group at 25 feet. I had shot outdoors three or four times to see how I would do with cold hands, wind, etc. My groups always fell apart while outside and I attributed it to the temp. Once the weather broke I began shooting outdoors and I am horrible. If I avoid the outdoor range, and shoot indoors two or three times in a row my groups tighten up to where they should be.

This has me perplexed. It is disappointing to see myself shoot so inconsistently. I don't know what to do. I bought 1000 rds and plan on trying to shoot myself through the problem, but at the same time I don't want to spend 1000 rds doing the same things wrong. Is there something different about shooting outdoors?

Secondly, to expand on the problem, because it is never so easy as to be a single problem, I purchased a new handgun.

To be clear the first problem occurs with and is exclusive to me shooting my Glock 19 and occurred consistently before the new gun purchase.

I recently purchased a HK USP 45, not in small part to the rave reviews provided by TS. I suck with it. Plain and simple. The week before I bought it I shot hole in hole with a stranger's gold cup on an indoor range. I pick up the USP and almost all of my shots fall about 4 inches below where I am aiming and couldn't stick together it the teacher made them hold hands. After three or four magazines my hand got fatigued and it was down hill from there.

So I thought I knew the drill, I buy some snap caps and practice dry fire three nights a week, for two or three hours, for about three weeks in addition to a small amount of range time. Poof I step up on my next serious range day and shoot respectable groups with the HK. The problem is that it took almost 100 rds to get back to shooting tight groups with the Glock.

What can I do to reconcile the problems I am experiencing so that I can shoot both respectably with zero modifications to the firearms?

Put the two of these together on a bright sunny day after an entire winter of shooting accurately and consistently, and I am happy that no one is around to see me shoot. It is really a pathetic sight to witness.

What can I practice to correct my problems?

I hesitate posting this in public because a) the Indoor / Outdoor problem seems kind of flukey to me. Mainly because I am a novice compared to you and the other members and feel like a real super idiot saying that two months ago I was putting 15 rds in a three inch hole and now because of some sort of "vampirism" sunlight takes away my "super powers". b) TS's answer to my Glock HK resolution question would be to throw away my Glock. While that may still be a viable solution I was shooting the glock very consistently and never had problems shooting 1911 Kimber or Colt, Walther, M-9's, etc.

Thanks in advance for your time and any light you may be able to shed on my situation. If I am over reacting or over thinking the problems please tell me. For all I know I may just be in a slump or having shitty month and just need more range time.

Thanks again,

lksteve · 07-08-2005, 20:01

indoors you have constant light conditions, outside you have varying light conditions...indoors you have constant calm, outside you have varying wind conditions...indoors you have minimal distractions along your line of sight...i don't know about the outdoor range you fire at, but in my time i have inhaled bugs, seen birds fly across the firing line, heard sirens in the distance, etc...outdoors ain't indoors...you need to practice in both environments...

i suspect changing light conditions might be the biggest problem you face...try going from dark to light, shadows to sunlight, with the wind, against the wind, cross winds, varying conditions...it takes alot of practice...some, like TS, master shooting pistols...some of us are issued shotguns...they gave me the radio...

changing guns presents a challenge in and of itself...it would have been a better idea to isolate you problems in one environment without introducing multi-variable calculus to the problem...

**Team Sergeant** · 07-08-2005, 20:06

My first "important" question:

Did the "neophyte" that PM'ed you purchase any SFA raffle tickets from us?

Team Sergeant

**Peregrino** · 07-08-2005, 20:45

Part II

1. Have you ever had any FORMAL marksmanship training? Critical question. If you haven't go get it NOW! Otherwise, you're wasting ammo and building bad habits. Do not let your ego get in the way of quality training. That's why I find it easier to teach women to shoot - they listen and (usually) do what they're told. That and they don't have a lot of baggage and bad habits that I have to get out of them.

2. Find a mentor, hopefully somebody who can coach you (they have to know what they're doing). Find a shooting buddy. Find somebody who will go to the range with you. When you go to the range - train with a goal in mind. Work with your partner; practice perfection. A disciplined approach with feedback and charted progress is the only way to improve. Look at some of the PT threads here - the same principles apply.

3. IIRC - the fundamentals are: Stance, Grip, Sight alignment, Sight Picture, Breath Control, Trigger Manipulation, Follow-through, and Recovery. Learn what those words mean (I'm not rewriting the book - Google the Army Marksmanship Manual or the NRA/CMP pubs if you want to know more) and apply them. They are the foundation that all pistol marksmanship (from NRA Bullseye to CQB and combat survival) is based on. You don't learn to shoot like the TS (I've seen him - he is that good) without mastering the fundamentals first. Your PM sounds like you don't have a clue; not trying to be cruel, just factual.

4. Solve one problem at a time. Every time you introduce multiple variables, you have no idea which one is the base problem. By changing multiple factors at the same time you are essentially "stacking tollerances" (Mr. Harsey or FS can explain in detail) and you cannot isolate the problem to fix it.

5. Going from an indoor range to an outdoor range is the same as going from the lab to the field. One is sterile and isolated, the other is the real world with all of the distractors included. Quit running back to the indoor range and concentrate on marksmanship fundamentals on the outdoor range. You don't defend yourself on an indoor range, quit using it to establish your baseline. What you describe is fairly common - it's also mostly between your ears. Concentrate on fundamentals, nothing else matters. Keep allowing inconsequential details to affect your concentration and one of these days we'll read about you in the obits.

6. Either one of your pistols is adequate (neither is on my favorite list but I wouldn't turn them down either). Decide which one you want to be good with and learn to shoot it well. Different pistols will shoot to different points of aim. Changing grip angle (Glock vs. HK - BIG CHANGE) will result in a different point of impact (POI). Changing ammo will change POI. Trigger pull, lighting changes - etc., etc., etc. Decide which gun you want to shoot. Learn to shoot it well. When you've mastered the fundamentals with your primary pistol then you can try applying them to different pistols. You will be surprised how easy that is when you have mastery with the first one.

7. FWIW I consider a good shot group to be 4" at 25m fired rapid fire - 10 rounds, 10 seconds w/magazine change. I've gotten lazy, my group right now has grown to about 6". It requires practice (remember the lazy part) and a strict concentration on the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship. Add moving, reloading, using cover, communicating, and the myriad of other tasks required to survive a gunfight and it's easy to see why average LEO hit rates are as low as 15-18%. The guys who treat it like a martial art and learn it like their life might depend on it have hit probabilities exceeding 85-90% (which is damn good in a running battle).

Hopefully this gives you something to work with. Peregrino

mumbleypeg · 07-09-2005, 08:27

What glasses are being worn? Indoors? Outdoors? Check clothing as well. Small variations can and do make a great deal of difference.

I found Brian Enos "Practical Shooting" helpful. I think I will bow out now and enjoy the instruction. I keep hearing the phrase "ears open, mouth shut".

lksteve · 07-09-2005, 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumbleypeg

I found Brian Enos "Practical Shooting" helpful. I think I will bow out now and enjoy the instruction. I keep hearing the phrase "ears open, mouth shut".

yeah, but some of the big dogs are still on the porch...sitting here with my notebook and pencil and everything....

**Peregrino** · 07-09-2005, 10:08

I'm trying to stir the pot - everybody keeps sending me PM's. Keep that up and we'll never entice the big dogs off the porch. For you Southern boys - it's like catfishing. The big ones don't bother coming out of their holes unless the bait is really enticing (dead and smells awful). So quit sending me PM's. I'm not the "Mr. Manners" of the board. You've got to move out and draw fire.

If you're a "neophyte" and you have something to contribute - toss it out there. It's an excellent opportunity to practice people skills. Hopefully, if you get good at it, something that can save you having to use the gun skills. SA, risk management, and people skills are the preferred first line of defense backed up hard with Mr. Colt or equiv.

Win, win - if you're right and you don't draw fire we learn and you collect positive points. If you're right but you do draw fire, time to work on your delivery. If you're wrong - we get entertained and you learn a valuable lesson.

Still stirrin Boss, still stirrin!

Peregrino

Edited to add - Most responses are concentrating on minutia. Observations about lighting, wind, or other distractors - while true, are overlooking the realities of gunfighting. None of that stuff is important when the lead is flying. - P

**Team Sergeant** · 07-09-2005, 14:03

Quote:

I bought 1000 rds and plan on trying to shoot myself through the problem, but at the same time I don't want to spend 1000 rds doing the same things wrong.

This made me smile….. So with that train of thought, do you think that if you hit 1000 golf balls you could drive like Tiger Woods? You think Tiger just woke up one morning and said, “I think I’ll become the number one golfer in the world and I’m fully prepared to spend 30 minutes a day in order to accomplish this task.”

Anyone can pull a trigger, fire a pistol and launch a bullet, just as anyone can hit a golf ball, now where they go, consistently, is another story.

You are in good company, 99.5% of the people that shoot handguns don’t really understand pistol marksmanship. Most understand enough to be very dangerous. (Which makes me happy in some respects; I know the bad guys are relying on pure luck when they start a gunfight…) Yes, I said 99.5%.

Want to shoot like me? Let me know when you can do 100 push ups and 20 pull ups, non stop, and properly.

TS

72_Wilderness · 07-09-2005, 16:46

Could it be possible that the wrong kind of training is being done? Minutes, hours, and days spent training will only help if you are training in the correct fashion. Logically one should train in the manner that they intend to fight. Does it really matter how small of a group you can make, shouldn’t a shooter be more concerned about the placement of the shots.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com...ight=chest+head
“They go to the range. Put the target perfectly square to them. Then they proceed to slow fire the box of ammo into the absolute tightest shot group they can. Then they brag to their buddies they shot this tiny hole.

A professional trainer calls the phenomenon Marksmanship Maturbation. Why such a derrogatory term? Because the only reason they train that way is to make themselves
feel good.

You want to be like that guy at the end of the range by himself repeatedly clearing malfunctions with only his weak hand, then firing two to the chest, one to the head. Not fun training, good training.”

NDD can always get the point across.
I am not trying to argue with any QP’s, I just thought that I would mention that shot placement might be more crucial than the grouping size of your shots.

Peregrino might possible have qualified for some kind of award for being patient with us, neophytes.

72W

NousDefionsDoc · 07-09-2005, 16:51

Find a competent and professional instructor.

Pay him.

Listen and do what he says.

Repeat for the rest of your life.

I disagree with "self-diagnosis" in neophytes. And most people in general. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you could just stop it.

I don't know what "call your shot" means. I thought that was baseball.

**Peregrino** · 07-09-2005, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Find a competent and professional instructor.

Pay him.

Listen and do what he says.

Repeat for the rest of your life.

I disagree with "self-diagnosis" in neophytes. And most people in general. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you could just stop it.

I don't know what "call your shot" means. I thought that was baseball.

NDD - I'm pretty much with you. Shooting without a plan is plinking. Plinking is not training. That's why I said get instruction. Quality instruction gives value added to your ammunition costs. After somebody competent has taught you and drilled the basics, you can start spending money on additional training. Courses are the best learning method - direct instruction with feedback and mentoring. Books and videos are better than nothing, but only if you already have a solid foundation. Videos are better than books (personal opinion) because they let you see how the big boys do it. Just remember - most of them are competitors, not gunfighters. They are not usually concerned about tactics. (I still don't want one of them shooting at me!)

Self-diagnosis assumes you know what you're doing. If that were true there wouldn't be anything to diagnose. Even in the best shooters, it doesn't work well. That's why I said get a buddy and practice together. Have a plan and coach each other through it. After some basic training when you actually know the principles, coaching will improve both people; the shooter and the coach (you have to know what your doing first though). I do know what "call your shot" means and I don't use it for combat shooting exercises. It's best used during initial training while learning the fundamentals. By the time you move to combat shooting, it should already be internalized. What should be going through your mind is "front sight, front sight, squeeze!" (Hmm - Danger Will Robinson, Danger!) Learn to apply the fundamentals and everything else comes.

72-Wilderness - Nice search skills, and appropriate to the discussion. A point though - group size is important. Putting a pistol bullet where it will do the most good requires accuracy. It may also require multiple shots in the same area. Slow fire is a stepping stone towards that goal. What was being ridiculed was the guy who never leaves the start point yet still thinks he's accomplished something. Something for you to think about is the tradeoff between speed and accuracy. You can be very fast, or very accurate. Being both fast and accurate is a journey of a thousand steps. Start small. Go to the range, set up a blank piece of paper. Spraypaint a 4"-6" dot on it. Start between 3 and 7m. Practice firing 2 rounds into it as smoothly as you can. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. (Ancient mantra!) Keep all rounds inside the dot. Speed up until you are no longer keeping your group inside the dot. Improve your marksmanship until your group is again acceptable. Repeat, getting faster as time goes on. Add reloads, malfunction drills, weapon transitions, weak hand shooting, etc. following the same pattern. Use a shot timer to monitor progress. Have fun.

Okay - Somebody else's turn. Peregrino

NousDefionsDoc · 07-09-2005, 20:34

Excellent post

**Roguish Lawyer** · 07-10-2005, 08:39

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.

**Razor** · 07-10-2005, 08:58

So, what did you get for the TS?

NousDefionsDoc · 07-10-2005, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.

Geez man, it's just a pistol, not the Holy Grail...