05-15-2005, 11:45
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#1
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
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Infantry in Action
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2005, 12:09
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#2
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Virginia
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very interesting
Very educational as well. Implementation to all units may be difficult though (i.e. not just combat arms units)...
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05-15-2005, 12:27
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#3
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Quiet Professional
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Why?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2005, 12:37
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#4
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Quiet Professional
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2005, 12:41
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#5
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Virginia
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Don't view my comment as an argument against it, far from it. For a long time I wanted combatives to be an integrative part of the training that my unit received, but being a bean counter in an ammo unit put us low on the list for this training (as told to me by my Grp commander during a question and answer session). Not only is it an important skill for all soldiers to have a working knowledge of, it provides quite a workout too (which is definitely needed in a lot of units). That is what I meant by implementation (FWIW)
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05-15-2005, 12:59
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#6
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Guest
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I like this. A lot.
Here's FM 3-25.150.
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05-15-2005, 13:13
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Why?
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For the same reason COSCOM doesn't teach Advanced Marksmanship to their soldiers. Lack of proper command emphasis.
BTW:
I was a student of Larson's program when it first started and it was a "kick-ass" program even then. I'm glad to see that it has gone as far as this. He is largely responsible for making this program what it is today. We need to see this become part of mandatory unit training just like basic rifle marksmanship.
Until then, squad leaders can emmulate what many SF Team Sergeants have done and implement it on their own small unit training program (as opposed to letting "Joe" go back to the barracks to play X-Box until something comes up during duty hours).
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Basenshukai is offline
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05-15-2005, 13:20
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#8
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Asset
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
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I specifically like how he implements the program into the daily training, so that it is constant, yet unexpected.
RLTW
EP
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3rd Plt (EarthPigs), A Co., 2/75 Ranger, '88-'89
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05-15-2005, 15:17
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
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Good stuff for everyone.
I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.
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05-15-2005, 15:18
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#10
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Quiet Professional
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kyobanim
Good stuff for everyone.
I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.
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That was my favorite part as well.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-15-2005, 15:23
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#11
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Moderator
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If someone gets close enough to where you need to take a swing at them then you didn't bring enough bullets.
I hope they're doing continuing education on this. Combatives falls into the "use it or loose it" category. Needs to be part of weekly training.
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"Are you listening or just waiting to talk?"
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
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05-15-2005, 15:27
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#12
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Quiet Professional
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I'd have to see the whole program to be fair, but I don't really care for it. It's too complicated, especially for level one. Too much, "Do this, and then do this, then move this leg here, then slide..." See what I mean?
I like, "Stop his foot! Gouge his eye! Hit him in the face with entrenching tool! Bronco stomp his head! Move out and draw fire!"
Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2005, 15:31
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#13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'd have to see the whole program to be fair, but I don't really care for it. It's too complicated, especially for level one. Too much, "Do this, and then do this, then move this leg here, then slide..." See what I mean?
I like, "Stop his foot! Gouge his eye! Hit him in the face with entrenching tool! Bronco stomp his head! Move out and draw fire!"
Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.
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Seemed too complicated to me as well.
A man who was trying to remember all of that while being choked out and who hadn't rehearsed regularly would be gone before he remembered what it was he was trying to do.
Looked like it was all BJJ, nothing more on the boxing, stick fighting, etc. that was on the video.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-15-2005, 15:42
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#14
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Quiet Professional
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The funny thing is they have a pic of the Colonel on their website. His philosophy on ground fighting for soldiers was pretty much "Get UP!" I don't really understand why they insist on something new. All they have to do is get Mr. Cestari or Damian Ross or somebody like that to train the trainers, then give them the tapes and copies of Get Tough. Like Cincy said, the O'Neil stuff was designed for the forerunners of today's Ranger Battalions. There are some good guys out there that have kept the stuff alive and would probably be more than happy to teach today's Warriors. I doubt you'll ever see Big O rolling around on the ground for very long or sitting on top of somebody without beating them to a pulp.
Still, we haven't seen the rest of it, and it is definitely better than nothing.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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05-15-2005, 23:07
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#15
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Area Commander
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.
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Oh I wish I could teach this to my Officers....but NO, "That's to aggressive" Freaking sissies.
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