Military Justice

QRQ 30 · 05-06-2005, 07:54

I see a lot of criticism of military justice both here and in general. It seems that the catch words are "cover up" and "Scape Goats"

RE:Abu Ghraib: So far 1 General( now a Col), 1 Col., 4 LTC., 3 Maj., 9 Cpt., 4 1lt., 2 2Lt, and 3 CWO have been charged. Some received administrative punishment and some are still awaiting Courts Martial. That is 26 officers. Soon the media will be crying that Karpinski was a scape goat. Not true, punishment was meted out all down the chain of command.

RE: Marines. There was fear that the marine that shot a wounded terrorist in a mosque would be sacrificed to the media. Not true. Yesterday the USMC board of inquiry found that the marine had acted properly and no charges will be filed.

I have said many times that the military is perfectly capable of policing itself and the media and general public needs to butt out!

Now I see that Tillman who is a hero is being used as a weapon against the Army. It is said that the Army "with held" information. There are big differences between "with holding for a proper time", with holding period, and covering up. I'd bet that Tillman is rolling over in his grave.

Manstein · 05-06-2005, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

I have said many times that the military is perfectly capable of policing itself and the media and general public needs to butt out!

Now I see that Tillman who is a hero is being used as a weapon against the Army. It is said that the Army "with held" information. There are big differences between "with holding for a proper time", with holding period, and covering up. I'd bet that Tillman is rolling over in his grave.

I agree with your above point.

As far as Pat Tillman is concerned, an Army report recently concluded that his uniform and body armour were deliberately destroyed before the Army got a chance to determine whether he was hit by American fire or not. Is it standard procedure for the Army to burn the uniform and body armour of a soldier a day after they are KIA? If not, then some people are going to be in trouble, and deservedly so. But back to your original point above, it should be dealt with privately.

http://premium.cnn.com/2005/US/05/04/tillman.death/

Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new Army report on the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year concluded that his uniform and body armor were burned a day after he was killed -- and before investigators had determined he was shot by his fellow soldiers.

The yet-to-be-released investigation results, first reported by the Washington Post, concludes that the burning of the clothes and armor amounted to destruction of evidence.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 05-06-2005, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manstein

I agree with your above point.

If not, then some people are going to be in trouble, and deservedly so.
http://premium.cnn.com/2005/US/05/04/tillman.death/

Why do you think that? While I will agree that hidding/covering up a criminal act or something caused by command negligence and breakdown should lead to "some people" getting into trouble I would not find fault with this action to preclude some kid from not being made the scapegoat for a case of "shit happens" There are, unfortunately, officers who make risk aversion a science to protect their ca-rears that place so many restrictions through ROE that the cost to avoiding casualties from friendly fire or during training actually leads to timidity on the battlefield and results in lives lost from enemy action that should never have happened. Technology has provided commanders with a false sense they can substitute being able to see the battlefield from the camera of a drone rather than thru their own eyes. It then becomes an easy call to make when you are away from the sting of the battle when something goes wrong.

Jack Moroney-believing that a good commander would always chose drawing his weapon over fingering a mouse to influence the situation

Manstein · 05-06-2005, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

Why do you think that? While I will agree that hidding/covering up a criminal act or something caused by command negligence and breakdown should lead to "some people" getting into trouble I would not find fault with this action to preclude some kid from not being made the scapegoat for a case of "shit happens"

Sir,
I feel that the man/men who ordered the destruction of his uniform and body armour should be held accountable for destroying evidence before the investigation of the death of a U.S. soldier could take place.

Whether they ordered his equipment destroyed because they wanted to protect their careers, or to spare a scapegoat status for the poor soldier who blew him away makes no difference (to me atleast). The investigation will show whether the soldier who took him out acted negligiently or not.

The reports I've read so far, including some first-hand accounts, claim that the Rangers were "less" than disciplined in their firing at Tillman. The same accounts also claim that Ranger Tillman didn't identify himself properly, and his 'hand signals' weren't a clear showing that he was a friendly. A clear case of "shit happens" as you said Sir. My point is that they should of let the investigation conclude that, without destroying evidence and further complicating the situation.

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 05-06-2005, 19:23

[QUOTE=Manstein]Sir,
I feel that the man/men who ordered the destruction of his uniform and body armour should be held accountable for destroying evidence before the investigation of the death of a U.S. soldier could take place.

QUOTE]

Whether you realize it or not you have just defined the difference between a manager and a leader. A manager will always do things right but a leader will do the right thing.

I am sure that everyone involved with this operation knows exactly what happened and have taken whatever actions are necessary to resolve the situation. As you have no ground experience in SOF I can assure you that they will eat their own when this stuff happens and no one outside the community will know what transpired. The kid that shot him will have to live with this for the rest of his life and nothing will ease the pain for those that knew or worked with Tillman. This is, and should be, an internal affair handled by the military and not tried in the media who have absolutely no idea of what goes on in situations like these regardless of how many seasons of JAG they have watched, video games they have played or paint balls that they have fired at one another on the weekends.

Jack Moroney-I always prefer to do the right thing

jasonglh · 05-06-2005, 20:13

If Ranger Tillman was killed by 50 cal fire to the head what possible evidence was destroyed with his uniform? The article I read said they destroyed it because it was a bio hazard. It would seem everyone on the ridge knew who was firing upon them so they didnt an investigation to figure that out. What may have led up to that is a different story.

Its amazing in wars past families never new how a loved one died at all. Now suddenly they are supposed to know all the details immediately?

Manstein · 05-06-2005, 20:36

Quote:

Whether you realize it or not you have just defined the difference between a manager and a leader. A manager will always do things right but a leader will do the right thing.

Jack Moroney-I always prefer to do the right thing

With all due respect Sir, I believe the "right" thing to do was to tell the truth to Marie Tillman, Ranger Tillman's parents, and his brother. Instead of illegally destroying evidence to cover someones behind (regardless if it is an officer's or the man who shot him). I think we both want to do the right thing, only our versions of "right" are deviating a bit

I feel for the man who killed Pat Tillman unintentionally. As you stated, he will have to live with that for the rest of his life. I'm not asking for a public lynching. On the contrary, I want the public out of it and the prosecution of the "evidence destroyers" handled internally, as many in the Military do.

Perhaps QRQ is right, and Ranger Tillman is rolling in his grave, knowing that certain men he served under flat out lied to his wife and family about how he perished.

**Peregrino** · 05-06-2005, 21:52

What is it about the American character that demands paroxysms of auto- flagellation? Now we have a news media engaged in a feeding frenzy to "prove" malfeasance on the part of somebody. God forbid - a coverup! The media with their overweening egos in their self appointed roles as "society's watchdogs" have once again mistaken liberty for license. The damage they do to the family, the Army and the nation as a whole by inflating this tragedy to the level of high drama is unconscionable.

Fratricide is a fact of life/death in war. Thank God a number of factors (mostly training, leadership & technology) have contributed to reduce blue on blue casualties to a level unimaginable in previous conflicts. Every servicemember has a DUTY to continue that trend. We will never arrive at zero - sadly shit happens. Now for the rant!

The investigation of this particular tragedy has taken a turn for the absurd! Personally I cannot fathom why his blood soaked uniform would be necessary to an investigation. He was obviously wearing an American uniform (again - I can't imagine a Ranger in a combat zone wearing anything else!). Any holes in his body went through his clothing to get there. What more is there? As far as I'm concerned, the only reason anybody cares about the destruction of his uniform & body armor is because some muckraker wants to be able to show an admiring audience of bobbing heads that the "investigation" (witch hunt, inquisition, etc. pick your favorite label) left no stone unturned. How many of us have seen "Lt. Fuzz types" assemble investigations with hundreds of exhibits - most of them with no direct bearing on the case - all lovingly collected, labeled, and displayed to prove the diligence of the investigating officer?

Everyone involved that day will bear the psychological scars for life. I am sure there were human errors that contributed directly or otherwise to Tillman's death. Some of them were probably preventable, some of them may even rise to a level of culpability. Hopefully a thorough and competent investigation has had the opportunity to dispassionately examine the facts and arrive at appropriate conclusions. I am sure that the results of any investigation will be acted upon and we can all be confident that at its conclusion the good of the nation will have been served (at least that's the principle we operate on).

What we should be concentrating on - what is being lost in this idiocy - is the fact that America has tragically lost a son who demonstrated levels of personal conviction and moral and physical courage that are sadly (personal opinion) lacking in the general population. Characteristics little different from what we witness every day among the companions of our chosen profession. What made him different was his ability to communicate (to his credit as a person - mostly by example) those values outside our insular community. The country lost someone who inspired others to rise above themselves and accept the duties and risks of defending our nation's ideals. As one less paragon setting an example others could aspire towards he was truely larger than life. He will be sorely missed. Those seeking to profit from his/our tragedy will not!

Oh - I didn't forget that they "lied" about how he was killed. Bad judgement (downright stupid), but not a capital crime. As someone else said: "in previous wars people never found out how their loved ones died." We - the Army - have to know so we can try to prevent a recurrence, the family most probably has a right to know - the nation as a whole, led by the damn press DOES NOT!

My .02 - Peregrino

12B4S · 05-07-2005, 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrino

What we should be concentrating on - what is being lost in this idiocy - is the fact that America has tragically lost a son who demonstrated levels of personal conviction and moral and physical courage that are sadly (personal opinion) lacking in the general population. Characteristics little different from what we witness every day among the companions of our chosen profession. What made him different was his ability to communicate (to his credit as a person - mostly by example) those values outside our insular community. The country lost someone who inspired others to rise above themselves and accept the duties and risks of defending our nation's ideals. As one less paragon setting an example others could aspire towards he was truely larger than life. He will be sorely missed. Those seeking to profit from his/our tragedy will not!
- Peregrino

I agree with everything Terry, Peregrino and Jack posted. I couldn't even begin to describe my thoughts and feelings any better. The above quote, IS what it is all about and the ONLY factor that truely matters!!

sf11b_p · 05-07-2005, 08:53

Quote:

I feel that the man/men who ordered the destruction of his uniform and body armour should be held accountable for destroying evidence before the investigation of the death of a U.S. soldier could take place.

Someone already mentioned it, but, as having had a medical MOS I'd say it likely it may have been something as simple as the medical personnel eliminating a (bloody uniform) bio-hazard without thinking of the material being needed for an investigation. It's not their mind set to think of LEO actions any more than they'd know what laying a machine gun means. Are you gonna fry a specialist or private for doing their job as per their SOP?

QRQ 30 · 05-07-2005, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by sf11b_p

Someone already mentioned it, but, as having had a medical MOS I'd say it likely it may have been something as simple as the medical personnel eliminating a (bloody uniform) bio-hazard without thinking of the material being needed for an investigation. It's not their mind set to think of LEO actions any more than they'd know what laying a machine gun means. Are you gonna fry a specialist or private for doing their job as per their SOP?

Here we go again. This is why I started this thread. Those not involved in the incident making defenses and cjharges. No one has been burnt yet and so far the military has done a good job of sorting things out.

Col. Jack probably best defined the situation.

As an aside: I never realized it was SOP to burn cloths. I always thought all of the smoke I saw over Vietnam was from exploding ordinance and the fires it started.

jasonglh · 05-07-2005, 10:57

Would a Ranger unit such as that carry body bags? I have zipped up some pretty mangled corpses and never had a leakage problem.

As far as Vietnam goes I wonder if Hep C will kill more vets in the end than Agent orange.

Pop says if you see smoke and a hovering Huey its probably a field of maryjane going up.

sf11b_p · 05-07-2005, 11:22

Quote:

defenses and cjharges

I wasn't making a defense or a charge and wasn't replying to your statement at all.

QRQ 30 · 05-07-2005, 11:35

Quote:

Are you gonna fry a specialist or private for doing their job as per their SOP?

My answer to the question is NO!! The military will get to the bottom of things and IF they followed SOP that will be the end of it. I was referring to those who presume someone will fry over this. Not always, but the military is usually realistic about such things.

BTW: We have PM facilities if we want to make this personal!!

sf11b_p · 05-07-2005, 12:23

First my apology QRQ 30, I'm not trying to get in your face. My second post was short but wasn't intended to insult.

I pretty much agree with your points. My first post was meant for Manstein, that there was a simpler reason for burning a bloody uniform than a cover-up or conspiracy. You and most on this board probably knew that, just making sure Manstein did.

Sorry bout that.