The Attempted Pussification of Our Armed Forces.

QRQ 30 · 02-18-2005, 23:07

Much is still being made of the trainee who died in Paris Island. They keep showing a film of the trainee's CO shoving "Hitting" him. All I saw was the CO placing his hand on the trainees chest and giving a light shove. I have several personal thoughts:

When recruits report for training, the doors should be closed behind them and nothing heard or seen from them until they complete training. Many of us have experienced what we thought were abuses at the time, only to laugh at or even appreciate the effectiveness later.

We used to joke about the marines having a 14 man squad since they had two PIO individuals with them. Based upon recent damaging photos and film when are they, and the rest of the military going to learn.

Believe me, the Marines or any other service are perfectly capable of handling their own investigatuins without the media's and the likes of KKKKATIE Curick helping.

Take off the kid's gloves. I made the transition from the old to the new army. For every soldier you can point out that straightened up and flew right because of non-judicial punishment, I'll show you ten who did so because of a few good ass whippings. There was a day when the PSG was the biggest and baddest dude in the platoon. And if he couldn't handle a particular individuall he and the other three PSGs could.

Let our soldiers be soldiers for crissake. Soldiers kill the enemy not ask permission to search their person.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 02-18-2005, 23:41

Preach on, Qmaster Q!

QRQ 30 · 02-18-2005, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Preach on, Qmaster Q!

Is that Qmaster as in Quarter Master?

QRQ 30 · 02-19-2005, 00:05

Let me clarify my last: "Let soldiers be soldiers".

We all see the movies of the Centurians, and Knights in shining armor and the ossifers in their finery and grand balls etc, and that is the way the public wants to think of our soldiers. Has anyone ever looked at the real battelfield, with maces, clubs, battle axes and swords? That's what soldiers do. Soldiers are violent people who drink, whore and fight. Sorry Mom, but it's a fact!!

**Roguish Lawyer** · 02-19-2005, 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

Is that Qmaster as in Quarter Master?

NO!

Huey14 · 02-19-2005, 06:56

Awesome.

Hooahman · 02-19-2005, 15:47

Hooah!!!! Q

Yep, the minute I read about it and started seeing crap on the news about it I thought to myself "Here we go". While going through Sea training at NTC we had SEALs doing the training and the ones who could'nt swim that well or not at all were f***ed with. When we did our tower jumps into the water with Kpocs (Life vests) on one guys head went under the water and he came up out of the water screaming "TRAINING AID, TRAINING AID!!!!" hahaha, the instructors who had long poles to pull people out were laughing so hard it took them a second to get him out. He took hell from us when we got back to the baracks.

As for this recruit. Its a shame yes but it happens and yes Q I remember when the Chief (PSG) was the one that handled it and if he could'nt for some reason then 3 would samething. and IMO the guys who really got an ass kicking derserved it. I agree also that once you get to BCT, NTC, Paris island, etc.. no one hears from you till your graduating (Except for mail).

just my .02

CPTAUSRET · 02-19-2005, 15:51

Got to agree with you, T.

QRQ 30 · 02-19-2005, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Preach on, Qmaster Q!

Darn RL. Sometimes I fear Alzheimer's is setting in. It just dawned on me you were referring to my screen name! Sharp as a tack, huh! Duh.

Now, as for the drowning. I must say that someone is going to be held accountable for that. In my five year tenure as a UWO instructor I have seen three students drown. Each was immediadely recovered and resusciitated and returned to training. One, a Thai student, drowned twice. He made up his mind he would die rather than quit. We had to relieve the tough little guy. Someone was always in control and we kept on top of things. Some Marine was lax and negligent and will pay. I have no doubt the Corps can and will handle this without media pressure.

**Pete** · 02-19-2005, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

In my five year tenure as a UWO instructor I have seen three students drown

I loved teaching Pre-SCUBA. I was the one who would demonstrate the weight recovery. I am very bouyant. I would bring it up and hold it in the air and then explain just what the students had to do with it and what they had to say. Then I would replace it on the bottom and exit the pool.

There is just no beating the look on somebody's face when they are talking as their mouth goes under and they then realize they need to breath.

Unless, unless it's the great big "ONE EYEBALL" that grows in the mask as somebody is bobbing and has just jumped off the bottom for the second try at reaching the surface. As they slow to a stop and then start sinking, fins come off the hands, arms and hands start thrashing, The one eyeball grows in the mask and the whole body wiggles as it slowly sinks to the bottom. Arms and legs grow still as the student drifts down to the bottom to hit tanks down. "OK boys, drag him out."

Man, when you get the SCUBA guys in the pool to demonstrate everything we made it look sooooo easy.

After one nasty moning in the pool I was telling of my very bad run in with a Sub and two guys packed their bags, walked out of the pool area and turned in their equipment.

The last easy day was today. It gets hard in the morning.

Pete

Note for those who have never done it. Bobbing is a fun exercise where you get to put all of your dive gear on. Your air is turned off and your regulator is stashed behind you. You are givin the command "Bob to the deap end". You bounce, or bob as we call it, from the shallow end to the deap end of the pool. As it gets deaper it gets harder to get to the surface. Once you get to the deap end and look about as comfortable as you'll ever get you'll come to the surface and an instructor will shout at you "Fins on your hands". As you are bobbing you remove you fins and place them on your hands and continue bobbing until your told "Bob to the shallow end." It really is fun.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 02-19-2005, 18:30

I would be interested in statements made to trainees who forgot to turn their air on.

**Pete** · 02-19-2005, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

I would be interested in statements made to trainees who forgot to turn their air on.

Air? What Air? Pre-SCUBA trainees got no air in those days. You just got to train with the equipment and do everything on one breath. When you got to the real school the insturctors would let you use air.

Ahhh, who didn't love to watch crossovers in the morning.

Pete

**Ambush Master** · 02-19-2005, 18:48

Since I was a certified "Water Safety Instructor", during the Bob and Travel training at USMA, I was assigned as a "Lifeguard". After I completed my traverse of the pool, I got out of my gear and stood by on the edge of the pool.

The "Bob and Travel" consisted of traversing the lenght of an Olympic pool while wearing basic combat gear. Fatigues, Boots, web gear (with a sizeable rubber block in the butt pack) and weapon (rubber M-14). The idea was, you went to the bottom, shoved off at an angle then took a breath, repeat etc. so that you could cross a body of water with equipment !!

One of my classmates had a bit of a problem, he made several attempts at reaching the surface but came up VERY short. When he settled to the bottom, the Instructors called for me to retrieve him. When I got to the bottom, he was totally out and was Dead Weight. I grabbed him, planted my feet on the bottom and launched for the surface. We didn't make it to the top. I started clearing gear off of him on the way back down and headed for the top a second time. Made it up and started mouth to mouth on the surface while I headed for the side. By the time we got him out of the water, he was breating on his own. Simple training can become VERY complicated !!

Later
Martin

**Pete** · 02-19-2005, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

When he settled to the bottom, the Instructors called for me to retrieve him. When I got to the bottom, he was totally out and was Dead Weight.

We told everybody on the first day that they needed to fix any problem they in the pool themselves. If we needed to come in after them we were going to wait until they quite wiggling. We'd pull they out quick after that, the Medics would pound on they a bit and work their magic and they guy would be as good as new. The we'd tell the guy "Get in the pool mister and recover your equipment".

It is much, much easyer to pull them out when they've passed out than when they're struggling. After the class saw one or two guys sink to the bottom the light came on and they said "These guys told the truth."

We did get to run one SCUBA school around 1983 down in Mobil, AL. The Reserve/NG guys wanted to run a bunch of their guys through SCUBA school but they didn't have enough slotes. Key West SFUWO sent up two guys with the POI and oversaw our training program. Frankie D. was the team sergeant of the combined team.

We ran it just like Key West except it was much, much harder on them. Due to the location they would finish PT, were handed a box "lunch" breakfast and they ate it on the way to pool training. The rubber boats, surface swims with the big gator and night compass swims in the bay were very, very hard on them. The ones that made it to the end got a very well deserved Combat Diver Badge.

Pete

QRQ 30 · 02-19-2005, 20:48

The last posts of AM and Pete illustrate my point. There is no need to criticize the training or the Corps. If a marine drowned in the pool it was because:

1: The OIC failed to allot and assign proper safety personnel and equipment or:

2. The safety personnel weren't paying attention, or:

3. Both.

The truth will be found out and those responsible will pay.