Multi CCW situations a danger?

Scimitar · 10-07-2015, 19:56

I have a colleague who argues that a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCWs is just a recipe for disaster.

I lack the experience to argue with him, but it does beg the question, be it that I am a novice in this realm, in my mind I see 3-4 non-coordinated civilian CCWs zeroing in on gun fire, and firing on each other instead? Tell me this hasn't happened.

Having dedicated CCWs in a closed environment like a school is one thing, they can know each other, but what about a strip mall situation?

Am I simply misunderstanding how a situation like this goes down?

S

Sohei · 10-07-2015, 20:01

Generally speaking, the weapon isn't the threat...the person holding the weapon is and subsequently, the person doing "bad things" with that weapon becomes the target.

Your mall scenario is one where maturity and training plays a great part. You don't want a mall full of CCW's who simply shoot at the guy with a gun just because he has a gun. That is where their training will play a major part in how they react in that type of situation.

Old Dog New Trick · 10-07-2015, 20:44

It can go one, two, or more ways: all bad. Too many variables, situation and location will determine whether it goes north or south. Also how fast it will turn into a shit sandwich, or be over.

The only thing the police have in their favor are uniforms (marksmanship is not any strong point for them either.) Every UC officer (should) understand he's a target running around in an active event and carry/conceal effectively or get shot.

Anyone who truly wants to carry and put themselves in a situation should take many courses and read much info on the subject to learn as much as possible before they think about being a hero, because it's just as easy to be a zero.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that the threat is neutralized and the event ends with the lowest loss of life. That's success.

If three to four CCW citizens are in a mall they will all see something different from a different POV/angle if you are one of them and engaging the bad guy with fire, it is very likely you may get shot by the guy who sees you as the threat. The threat may now, not be neutralized.

In a school/classroom situation it is more likely that everyone in the room knows the threat in the room with them...conversely those with CCW entering a room is an unknown to anyone in the room, therefore a new or continuing threat.

After that, stop shooting, put your gun away and prepare to be treated like a criminal until the smoke clears...then get a lawyer.

I always think about this everyday, everywhere I go: restaurant, movie theater, mall, my kids elementary school, grocery store, pumping gas, around the house, etc...and WORK. When I'm with my family, my eight year old son, they come first. On my time - it's my family first! At work - that's different but I can do no good if I become "neutralized" by a friendly.

The sooner the event ends and the closer it stays to where it started the better outcome for all involved. Better to end within a matter of seconds after it began or total chaos will ensue with tactical loss of control.

PSM · 10-07-2015, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scimitar

...but what about a strip mall situation?

Am I simply misunderstanding how a situation like this goes down?

S

Where has that happened? Even if it does, it still may save many more lives.

In the Gifford's shooting in Tucson, there was at least one, possibly two, guys carrying. They couldn't get a clear shot because of background civilians. How many were shot because of their hesitation. Not saying that they were wrong, I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger either, just saying that they couldn't know how much more damage would be done because they didn't. You play the hand that's dealt you.

Pat

**Team Sergeant** · 10-07-2015, 20:48

Couldn't be worse than two NYC cops shooting into a crowd and wounding 19 people while attempting to shoot one bad guy.

We've been carrying weapons for our entire history and that "recipe" has yet to manifest itself.

Your "colleague" is misinformed or uneducated in this area and not an expert by any means.

Old Dog New Trick · 10-07-2015, 20:58

Here, I'm going to rephrase what I said.

1) Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.
2) Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Identify and know your target, backstop and beyond.
4) Never point a gun at anything, anyone, you are not willing to kill or destroy.

Follow those rules and everything will end well for everybody but the bad guy.

Divemaster · 10-07-2015, 21:45

In an active shooter among sheeple assuming the fetal position, how the hell could it be worse than what would unfold with zero permit holders taking action?

Is it dangerous for "uncoordinated civilians"? Damn right it is. In 1892 there were four friendly KIA in Coffeyville, Kansas as the town pretty much wiped out the Dalton Gang.

If the good guns prevail, think of all the money it would save CNN. They wouldn't spend the money to fly their entire news organization to the scene to broadcast around the clock for days at a time. However, if there is even one friendly fire casualty the MSM will be pissing themselves in glee over the new story line. One person killed by a good guy will be the lead, ignoring the dozens saved from harm.

As for multiple CCWs, I've got three and they are well coordinated in my back pocket.

What's in your wallet?

**Box** · 10-07-2015, 21:58

multi CCW situations are no more of a danger than TRAINED POLICEMEN going into the wrong house and shooting each other....

...someone tell me again why I should even pretend to care about a "multi-CCW threat" when the cops that get paid to be awesome cant be trusted to act without endangering other people?

danger schmanger

Scimitar · 10-07-2015, 22:37

My buddy is as uneducated as I am on how a multi-CCW situation would go down.

But in my favor, I struggle to be aware of this occurring often if ever. Where a CCW in a situation gets confused for the bad guy, and chaos ensues.

I guess in most, "I'm a nut bag, I'm a criminal, or I'm a terrorist" situations, the bad guy is pretty obvious?

But under typical "combat" heart rate ramp up situations chance of error increases dramatically. I'm surprised this isn't a common occurrence.

But if there ain't a problem, don't fix it I guess? It would seem the current level of CCW training is enough to ward off the "multi CCWs screw up" situation."?

S

sinjefe · 10-08-2015, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scimitar

I have a colleague who argues that a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCWs is just a recipe for disaster.

That mentality is why there are problems. It boils down to one thing for your friend and people like him. They are afraid of their fellow humans. I would much rather have "a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCW" carriers running around than not. It is those carriers that will end up at the pointy end of the spear in an active shooter scenario, not cops. When is the last time you have heard of an active shooter going in and shooting up a police station (other than "The Terminator")?

sinjefe · 10-08-2015, 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scimitar

Where a CCW in a situation gets confused for the bad guy, and chaos ensues.

Yeah because that happens all the time, doesn't it? Don't you think the media would highlight those cases if they ever occurred to bolster their "only the police should have guns" nonsense?

Penn · 10-08-2015, 06:56

ODNT

Quote:

Here, I'm going to rephrase what I said.

1) Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.
2) Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Identify and know your target, backstop and beyond.
4) Never point a gun at anything, anyone, you are not willing to kill or destroy.

Follow those rules and everything will end well for everybody but the bad guy.

Thank you for stating 4 number 1 rules.
Should be a required mantra for every CCW holder.

Oldrotorhead · 10-08-2015, 07:43

if you are ever involved in an active shooter incident.

If you have a weapon visible when LE arrives the possibility of being shot is high.
As soon as the bad guy is down your cell phone is your friend if you hold it near your ear. Using Blue Tooth not so much.
If you are not doing first aid move away from anyone who who is down.

DanHeller88 · 10-09-2015, 00:32

In one of the Pistol courses I attended, taught by a CW4 I believe, he gave us a whole speech at the beginning that has forever stuck with me.

You walk into a convenience store and head to the back to get a soda. Upon getting to the freezer you hear someone come in. You grab your soda, then turn around to head to the register when you see the man who just entered with a gun pointed at the clerk. The clerk presses the silent alarm below the counter before raising his hands.

As you draw your weapon, the suspect shoots the clerk. You then follow up with shots on him. When the suspect goes down, you go in to assess the situation and make sure the threat is neutralized.

At the same time a police officer was arriving. As he exits his vehicle, he sees you closing in on a body gun drawn. The police officer then opens fire on you.

No matter who you find right or wrong is the situation, it is a pretty accurate description of how the chain of events seem to go. It certainly has stayed in my mind anytime I consider carrying a weapon.

PSM · 10-09-2015, 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHeller88

No matter who you find right or wrong is the situation, it is a pretty accurate description of how the chain of events seem to go.

Really? When has that actually happened?

Pat