The most important battle you've probably never heard of

[akv]

The most important battle you've probably never heard of

By Hugh Schofield
BBC News, Paris

Exactly 800 years ago on Sunday, in a field next to what is now the airport of Lille, a battle was fought which determined the history of England.

Today few people in the UK have heard of Bouvines. It has none of the ring of an Agincourt or a Crecy. Probably that is because England lost it. But the battle of 27 July, 1214, was just as significant as England's later victories over the French. Maybe more so.

"Bouvines is the most important battle in English history that no-one has ever heard of," says John France, professor emeritus in medieval history at Swansea University.

"Without Bouvines there is no Magna Carta, and all the British and American law that stems from that. It's a muddy field, the armies are small, but everything depends on the struggle. It's one of the climactic moments of European history."

The story of Bouvines begins with hapless King John, and his determination to retake the French lands he had lost in Normandy and Anjou. His opponent was the King of France, Philippe-Auguste, equally determined to establish French power and prestige.

King John had alienated most of the English nobility. The barons were angry at the way he extorted money, and excluded them from court. They refused to fight his wars. So for his campaign of reconquest in France, John forged a European alliance. He recruited other enemies of the French crown - the German Holy Roman Emperor Otto and the Counts of Flanders and Boulogne - and devised a two-pronged attack.

While King John landed in La Rochelle and advanced from the south-west, his allies - with an English contingent under John's half-brother William of Salisbury - were to attack the French from the north. In the event King John's advance in the south made little headway, though it did divert a good chunk of Philippe-Auguste's army.

The key confrontation was in the north, in that perennial European battle-zone - the fields of Flanders.

Today the village of Bouvines is a small community just outside the reach of the Lille conurbation and a few miles from the Belgian border. There is a bridge there over a small river called the Marque, today canalised but which 800 years ago sprawled over a large stretch of marsh.

King Philippe-Auguste's army had advanced east from Lille, planning to lay waste to the lands of Hainault which belonged to the Count of Flanders. Learning of the larger coalition army arrayed against him, the king turned back to Lille. But as his forces were crossing the bridge at Bouvines, the enemy caught up. They had come through a forest from the south.

The battle was fought on a hot Sunday afternoon and lasted four or five hours.
"It would have been a real scene of butchery. In these early medieval battles, archery had not been fully developed so the killing was up-close. And the leaders were in the thick of it," says local historian Alain Streck.

One of the main weapons used by foot-soldiers was a pike with a hook, which was used to pull knights off their horses. The French king was himself unhorsed by this method, and only saved by his bodyguard.

It was a close-run thing, but in the end the French prevailed. The Count of Flanders was captured. The German emperor fled. Afterwards 700 captured mercenaries from Brabant were put to the sword.

"What told in the French favour was their unified command," says John France. "The allies were a coalition army that had only got together for the first time four days before the battle. In those days coalition armies like that were inherently unstable."

What is Magna Carta?

Magna Carta outlined basic rights with the principle that no one was above the law, including the king It charted the right to a fair trial, and limits on taxation without representation It inspired a number of other documents, including the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Only three clauses are still valid - the one guaranteeing the liberties of the English Church; the clause confirming the privileges of the city of London and other towns; and the clause that states that no free man shall be imprisoned without the lawful judgement of his equals

The British Library has two copies of the 1215 Magna Carta
Source: The British Library

More from BBC History

King John was not at the battle. He was still in the south. But his dreams of reconquest were dashed. He returned to England, humiliated and impoverished. Less than a year later - his barons increasingly belligerent and the French now revealing their own designs on the English crown - he was forced to sign the Magna Carta, which limited his power and formed the basis of English democracy.

"The road from Bouvines to Magna Carta was direct and short," says Sean McGlynn, an expert in the period at the Open University. "Bouvines was the last straw. If John had won the battle, Magna Carta could have been avoided. But it was the decisiveness of the defeat. All his taxation had gone to waste. He was weakened, and the barons saw their opportunity."

John France adds: "If the English and their allies had won at Bouvines, John would have had the plunder and the prestige. The baronial opposition would have melted away. This was that rare thing: a battle that was genuinely decisive."

And not just for the English. In France the battle is remembered today for exactly the same reason that it is forgotten in England - because France won. What followed Bouvines was a golden era for the French monarchy - the Capetian dynasty, to which Philippe-Auguste belonged, was the dominant force in Europe for the next 100 years.

"If Philippe-Auguste had lost, the west of France would have been English, the north would have been Flemish, and the east would have been German," says Alain Streck. "But he won. The contours of the French kingdom were set, and the Capetians were able to start organising a state. It was really the beginning of French national consciousness."

In 1216 Philippe-Auguste's son Louis was welcomed in London, receiving the homage of a third of the English barons and of King Alexander of Scotland. In the title of Sean McGlynn's book, it was "The forgotten invasion of England," and an English King Louis I was a distinct possibility. But King John died, and the barons deserted Louis for the boy-king, Henry III.

Eight hundred years on, the village of Bouvines has been marking the anniversary with re-enactments and other events. On Sunday there is a church service, attended by a government minister and representatives from France's two rival royal houses.... (continues)

The battle of Bouvines looms particularly large in nationalist interpretations of French history.

After the defeat by the Prussians in 1870, there was a surge of French patriotism. The church at Bouvines was rebuilt with stained glass windows (now a national monument) recounting the story of the victory and in 1914 the 700th anniversary of the battle was celebrated with almost venomous anti-German sentiment.

"It is quite extraordinary that in the two world wars Bouvines church was in the hands of the Germans - but they never pulled down the stained glass windows showing the German emperor in headlong flight," says Alain Streck. "Maybe they did not look hard enough!"

This year's commemorations are built around the inoffensive themes of "Europe, peace and youth".

The trouble with Bouvines is that "it does not fit into the modern European narrative", says John France. "Nowadays the EU has a huge budget for academic studies, but they have to comply with the theme of Europe as a big happy family. That is why Bouvines tends to get neglected."

But Bouvines was a turning point for Europe, and above all for France and England. England withdrew to its insular priorities and began adapting its institutions to the new internal balance of power. The French monarchy emerged enormously enhanced and Paris became the centre of a national life.
In the words of the French 19th Century historian Ernest Lavisse: "The two nations set off in different directions. England headed towards liberty; France towards absolutism."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28484146

[glebo]

Thanks, very interesting...

[mark46th]

We should highlight the "No one is above the law including the king..." part and send it to the White House.

[The Reaper]

Frankly, I would propose that the Battle of Vienna is equally obscure and critical, perhaps moreso.

It is possible that the English monarchy might have transformed in some other way, but if the Ottomans took Vienna, it is highly unlikely that we would have the history or the freedoms that we have today.

The Polish forces saved Europe from the Muslims, if you were unaware of the outcome of the battle.

TR

[DIYPatriot]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Frankly, I would propose that the Battle of Vienna is equally obscure and critical, perhaps moreso.

And it gave us the croissant.

http://www.lagourmandise.net/history.htm

[Flagg]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Frankly, I would propose that the Battle of Vienna is equally obscure and critical, perhaps moreso.

It is possible that the English monarchy might have transformed in some other way, but if the Ottomans took Vienna, it is highly unlikely that we would have the history or the freedoms that we have today.

The Polish forces saved Europe from the Muslims, if you were unaware of the outcome of the battle.

TR

What I find interesting is how religious and intellectual conservatism also helped break the back of Ottoman expansionism.

So the Poles played a vital role in repelling and rolling back Ottoman/Islamic expansion in Europe.

The Poles played a vital role in cracking German Enigma crypto from 1932 until 1939 handing over their work to the UK/French, and Free Polish Forces.

The Poles played a vital role in shattering the communist Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the Soviet Union.

With a cultural pedigree like that, no wonder everyone loves GROM.

I actually can't remember the last time I heard a Polish joke....it would have to be a good 20 some years.

[akv]

Originally Posted by Flagg

With a cultural pedigree like that, no wonder everyone loves GROM.

FWIW, the Poles also fought valiantly at Cracow against the Mongols. They lost as did every other medieval army facing the Tumens, and possibly the only thing that saved Europe from an alternate history was the death of Ogedai Khan, which required the Mongols to return home for the succession vote.

But the Poles stood bravely, and its true the Mongol armies never came back to Europe after fighting the Poles...

From what I've read, Polish RAF squadrons were extremely aggressive and motivated during the Battle of Britain.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by akv

FWIW, the Poles also fought valiantly at Cracow against the Mongols. They lost as did every other medieval army facing the Tumens, and possibly the only thing that saved Europe from an alternate history was the death of Ogedai Khan, which required the Mongols to return home for the succession vote.

But the Poles stood bravely, and its true the Mongol armies never came back to Europe after fighting the Poles...

From what I've read, Polish RAF squadrons were extremely aggressive and motivated during the Battle of Britain.

The Warsaw Ghetto was the only place where the Jews really took on the Nazi's during WW2.

[BryanK]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

...To this day I am amazed how 10 million people calmly strolled to their death without fighting.

I am equally amazed at the number of Americans who would willingly go gently into that good night. I'm not sure if modern Americans by and large would resist a force that acted in a similar fashion. "Ihre papiere bitte".

Thank God for the sheepdogs that are still among us.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

They also took on tanks with horses charging into the fire with lances against the Germans.

This is a myth.

We used to tease a Polish immigrant that was in our LRSD Detachment in the 90's about this and he would get SOOOOOO pissed and tell us that they attacked an artillery unit, not tanks. I just looked it up and it said that they attacked an infantry unit and defeted them, then were attacked by armored cars with machine guns and were dispersed. Then later rumors crept out saying that had attacked an armored unit.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

The Warsaw Ghetto was the only place where the Jews really took on the Nazi's during WW2.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

To this day I am amazed how 10 million people calmly strolled to their death without fighting. 6 million Jewish people and the rest were other "sub humans" ie mental patients, Gypsies etc.

The Manhattan Project had no Jewish participants?

There were no Jews at all in the Allied and Soviet armed forces?

Jews did not attempt to escape from the Nazi dictatorship?

[uplink5]

Originally Posted by Flagg

What I find interesting is how religious and intellectual conservatism also helped break the back of Ottoman expansionism.

So the Poles played a vital role in repelling and rolling back Ottoman/Islamic expansion in Europe.

The Poles played a vital role in cracking German Enigma crypto from 1932 until 1939 handing over their work to the UK/French, and Free Polish Forces.

The Poles played a vital role in shattering the communist Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the Soviet Union.

With a cultural pedigree like that, no wonder everyone loves GROM.

I actually can't remember the last time I heard a Polish joke....it would have to be a good 20 some years.

Also, Polish resistance during WWII (known as the AK) was the largest resistance organization in Nazi occupied Europe of the war, and number an estimated 650,000 by 1944. It is most notable for disrupting German supply lines to the Eastern Front, providing military intelligence to the British, and for saving more Jewish lives in the Holocaust than any other allied organization or government.

[Jim72]

Originally Posted by uplink5

Also, Polish resistance during WWII (known as the AK) was the largest resistance organization in Nazi occupied Europe of the war, and number an estimated 650,000 by 1944. It is most notable for disrupting German supply lines to the Eastern Front, providing military intelligence to the British, and for saving more Jewish lives in the Holocaust than any other allied organization or government.

The polish parachute brigade led by Gen Sosabowski was an outstanding unit too, and he didn't much tolerate fools either so quite often ran afoul of allied command with his 'opinions'. It was a sad event (in my opinion) when the allies left the poles to their fate when they rose up against the Germans in Warsaw.

[Radar Rider]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The Manhattan Project had no Jewish participants?

There were no Jews at all in the Allied and Soviet armed forces?

Jews did not attempt to escape from the Nazi dictatorship?

I think that looking at the previous posts, there was no anti-Jewish intent nor questioning of Jewish strength and resolve. Especially in the case of the Holocaust, I think it was a statement that (combined with the other points) had the Jewish people been armed, it would have been quite a different result. But, don't forget that the turd Reich imposed national "gun control" on the law-abiding populace (law-breakers, by definition, break the law). Law-abiding Jewish citizens complied, and subsequently suffered the horrific results. I tend to believe that an armed citizen would react in a significantly different manner when the authorities start kicking down doors (especially when the neighbors have already been hauled away).

Let us take a look at Israel in May 1948. One day after being declared a sovereign state, five already existing Arab states attacked and subsequently had their asses handed to them by a new nation armed mostly with old remnant arms left over from the British. The existence of Israel proves Jewish strength and resolve. Sorry to derail the thread, if anyone feels that I have done so.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The Manhattan Project had no Jewish participants? The Manhattan Project was used against the Japanese.

There were no Jews at all in the Allied and Soviet armed forces? [COLOR="rgb(255, 192, 203)"][COLOR="rgb(255, 192, 203)"]There was a French Resistance, a Polish Resistance, the Free French battalions and the Polish Squadrons and Parachute Regiments but I don't recall that there were any Jewish equivalents.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
Jews did not attempt to escape from the Nazi dictatorship?

I said, take them on, not run away from the Nazi's.