Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > General Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2014, 10:34   #1
The Reaper
Quiet Professional
 
The Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,810
A-10 versus B-1 CAS

A-10s Saved the Day in Botched Afghanistan Raid

Low-flying jets better than bombers for supporting ground troops

https://medium.com/@warisboring/a-10...d-b78367f4fd0e

On June 9, five U.S. Special Operations Forces commandos died when a U.S. Air Force B-1 bomber mistakenly attacked their position in southern Afghanistan-presumably dropping JDAM satellite-guided bombs on the commandos from high altitude.

The accidental bombing comes as the Air Force is trying-with some success-to convince Congress to allow the flying branch to retire all 230 of its remaining A-10 Warthog attack jets, which specialize in low, slow attacks in close proximity to friendly troops.

The Air Force insists the high-flying B-1 and other warplanes can adequately replace the A-10. But the June 9 incident undermines the Air Force's case. Likewise, a similar incident seven years ago involving a B-1-"Bone" to the ground troops-and A-10s highlights the yawning differences between the two plane types and their pilots.

On Jan. 15, 2007, a force of 200 British Royal Marines and other troops including a Joint Terminal Air Controller, or JTAC, crossed a canal of the Helmand River in southern Afghanistan and attacked Jugroom Fort, a walled complex that was a key Taliban strongpoint.

The assault was a fiasco for the Brits. "The besieged Taliban fighters proved resilient, and sprayed the Z Company Marines with gunfire," The Guardianreported. "Within minutes the British force suffered four casualties, mostly gunshot wounds."

The British troops retreated. They were back across the river when the realized they had left behind a wounded man-30-year-old Lance Corporal Matthew Ford. The Brits radioed for help. Two A-10 pilots were flying nearby.
"Suddenly, our flight was re-tasked to support an allied commando unit and their JTAC," one of the A-10 pilots recalled in a widely-circulated written account. War is Boring agreed not to print the pilot's name, as his opinions contradict Air Force policy.

"We quickly checked in with the JTAC and received a standard situation update," the pilot recalled. "Using our old-school 1:50 paper maps, we hastily plotted the factor locations with grease pencil and quickly developed visual target reference points for us to use within our own flight."

We were given several known enemy firing positions to target north of the canal and we began hitting them with 30-millimeter [guns]. A B-1 bomber checked in with a full load of GBU-38 and GBU-31 JDAMs.

After we conducted the initial strikes, my flight lead sent me to the tanker to get gas first. While en route to the tanker, the JTAC gave the preparatory call for all players to receive the recovery game plan. I was forced off frequency to facilitate my tanker rejoin.

Once plugged on the tanker, I had the tanker pipe the frequency through the boom interphone so I could at least listen to the communications while getting gas.

The Royal Marines came up with a desperate and daring plan. Marines would strap themselves to the outsides of two British Army Apache gunship helicopters and dart back across the river to pick up Ford. They wanted the A-10s and B-1 to cover them.

"This is going to be a timed strike to cover the helicopter ingress," the British commander radioed. "The B-1 is going to drop four GBU-31s on the [Taliban positions] just prior to the helicopters crossing the canal. The A-10s will escort the Apaches in and lay suppressing fire on the enemy firing positions."
"Once dismounted from the helicopters, A-10s have overwatch," the commander continued. "Once we get our guy, we're gonna load him up, egress the area, and Bone and Hawgs are going to smash the place to bits."
"Jesus Christ," the tanker's boom operator muttered on overhearing the plan.
"The B-1 was now rushing to get the targeting solutions for the JDAMs," the A-10 pilot wrote. "The JTAC ordered a bomb-on-coordinate nine-line"-a detailed attack order in standardized format-"and the B-1 was frantically attempting to repeat the coordinates while plugging them into his targeting system."

"At the same time I was attempting to visualize where the coordinates were plotted, using just the verbal data alone-a skill set I learned from some experienced A-10 pilots," the Warthog flier recalled.

The more experienced A-10 flight lead was frantically doing the same-in essence, checking the JTAC and B-1 crew's work. The Taliban and the British troops-to say nothing of their madcap rescue force-were in very close proximity.
The B-1 is a high-flying, sluggish aircraft. Rather than maneuvering to attack down low based on visual cues, it lobs satellite-guided bombs to hit pre-designated coordinates. For a B-1 to hit the bad guys and avoid the good guys, the numbers have to be perfect.

"One set of coordinates made the hair on the back of my neck stand up," the A-10 pilot wrote. "I glanced at my canopy, where I had very similar coordinates written in grease pencil and circled with 'FDLY'"-code for friendly troops-"written on top. Before I could put two and two together, I heard the JTAC clear the B-1 hot for the four JDAMs."

"Immediately after the 'cleared hot,' I heard my flight lead interject."

"Abort! Abort! Abort!" the flight lead barked into the radio.

"State reason!" the B-1 crew demanded.

"Screw reason!" the A-10 leader responded. "God damn it, abort-you're about to kill friendlies!"

The B-1 waved off. Irritated, the British JTAC asked why his bomber had aborted.

"You passed your own coordinates!" the A-10 flight lead shot back.

"The JTAC disagreed with that assessment," the junior A-10 pilot wrote. "What I heard on the radio next still impresses me to this day. My flight lead asked the JTAC what GPS system he was using, then walked him through the page menus to confirm he was reading the system correctly."

"This took an amazing amount of prior self-study and composure during paramount stress."

The JTAC followed the senior Warthog pilot's directives. "Holy shit, mate," the air controller said. "You're right. We're spinning everything and we're re-setting this."

"Jesus Christ," the boom operator said again.

"Countless friendly lives were saved by a laminated Russian 1:50 map, a five-cent grease pencil and a dedicated and professional ... pilot with the experience and training to sift through the fog of both air and ground war," the A-10 pilot wrote.

The ground troops and their air support regrouped. The B-1 crew plugged in fresh-and this time correct-GPS coordinates and dropped four 2,000-pound bombs on the fortress.

The two A-10s, their gas tanks full, angled in to cover the Apaches. "We set up a close, low escort pattern to provide immediate firepower in defense of the helicopters," the pilot remembered.

As soon as they crossed the canal, all Hell broke loose from the canal banks and village. The Apaches began firing, we were calling out firing positions and shooting alongside them [via] close-range, low-angle strafe.

As I passed abeam one Apache, I glanced high left to see a man, leaning over the stubby helicopter wing, unloading his rifle on the enemy. We matched with 30-millimeter and rockets.

The B-1 held high as he was useless during this close attack phase. The Apaches, usually the escort birds, now found themselves requiring escort to make it in and out alive. Only an A-10 could have done that.

The Brits found Ford. He was already dead. The A-10s covered the Apaches on their return flight then helped the B-1 pulverize the fortress. "This time the JTAC had deferred coordinate generation to my flight lead."

"Ever since this mission I have fully embraced the unique and highly specialized skill of battlefield tracking," the pilot concluded. "It is a skill unique to the A-10 community, as we realize that [close air support] is more than simply dialing up a bomb for the ground commander."

The A-10 fliers-plus some very traumatized Royal Marines and B-1 crew members-may realize that. But Air Force generals apparently do not. They persist in believing a B-1 can replace an A-10.
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
The Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2014, 12:14   #2
JJ_BPK
Quiet Professional
 
JJ_BPK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 18 yrs upstate NY, 30 yrs South Florida, 20 yrs Conch Republic, now chasing G-Kids in NOVA & UK
Posts: 11,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
A-10s Saved the Day in Botched Afghanistan Raid

Low-flying jets better than bombers for supporting ground troops

...

The A-10 fliers-plus some very traumatized Royal Marines and B-1 crew members-may realize that. But Air Force generals apparently do not. They persist in believing a B-1 can replace an A-10.
Thanks TR,

Old School is better than new school toys, with-out brains..

__________________
Go raibh tú leathuair ar Neamh sula mbeadh a fhios ag an diabhal go bhfuil tú marbh

"May you be a half hour in heaven before the devil knows you’re dead"
JJ_BPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2014, 13:16   #3
Old Dog New Trick
Quiet Professional
 
Old Dog New Trick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Just above the flood plain in Southern Texas
Posts: 3,611
Not to derail but add a bit of older history to the discussion.

Any of you even older FOGs remember the 1st Special Operations Squadron, flying Douglas A-1 Skyraiders (Sandy)?

Low and slow with ample weapons stations to support ground troops. Or support SAR/CSAR as needed during the Vietnam war.

Concept was a predecessor to the A-10 (Originally an Army Air Corps) proposition the Air Force didn't want. AF generals have always had their heads high in the stratosphere since their inception. Unless you create a fixed wing aircraft then they feel it belongs to them.

From my Infantry days to Group and working SR as primary mission we did a lot of training in CAS and CSAR with everything from A-10s to B-1Bs. About the closest you could get to calling in CAS - Danger Close from a fast mover were F-15Es and some F-16s that wouldn't blow you up simply because they took the time to find you on the ground before plotting their own weapons release.

A-10s are hands down the best fixed wing for CAS, but the AH-64 Apache should if fuel and distance is not a factor in station time/response time be considered a close second.

Smart weapons are only as dumb as the human that programs them, until we can make humans fool proof I still prefer a second set of eyes.
__________________
You only live once; live well. Have no regrets when the end happens!

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Sir Edmund Burke)

Last edited by Old Dog New Trick; 06-15-2014 at 13:19.
Old Dog New Trick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2014, 14:10   #4
LarryW
Area Commander
 
LarryW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
Posts: 1,138
It's a matter of Boeing vs Fairchild Aircraft. The mission need is for a close-in support aircraft, and the A-10 has met that requirement better than others.

Quote:
Low-flying jets better than bombers for supporting ground troops

...

The A-10 fliers-plus some very traumatized Royal Marines and B-1 crew members-may realize that. But Air Force generals apparently do not. They persist in believing a B-1 can replace an A-10.
Spot on, TR & Old Dog New Trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEdy84YGf1k
__________________
v/r,
LarryW
"Do not go gentle into that good night..."

Last edited by LarryW; 06-15-2014 at 14:17.
LarryW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2015, 08:22   #5
BMT (RIP)
Quiet Professional
 
BMT (RIP)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
The Air Force’s Argument for Retiring the A-10 Makes No Sense

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015...seone_today_nl

BMT
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
BMT (RIP) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2015, 09:32   #6
TOMAHAWK9521
Quiet Professional
 
TOMAHAWK9521's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,209
Personally,I have yet to see how the B-1 does in the support role for ground troops. We were supposed to have a B-1 support us in Northern Iraq but the bird burst into flames shortly after landing in Qatar for an enroute refusing stop. Thankfully, the aircrew all escaped before the bird went up in flames. We ended up being supported by a sortie of F-18s instead.
__________________
"It is a brave act of valor to condemn death, but where life is more terrible than death, it is then the truest valor to dare to live." -Sir Thomas Browne (1605-1682)
TOMAHAWK9521 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2015, 17:20   #7
Badger52
Area Commander
 
Badger52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western WI
Posts: 6,973
First things first, to the Spad & Hawg pilots: SHIT HOT guys!


Well, it looks like the Marines will finally get the miniaturized bomb they want for their STOL capable variant of the F-35, which would of necessity (I mean these are Marines, right?) be forward and, presumably, doing what mission...? Well, by 2022 anyway.

Never fear, the F-35 will fix everything & make it all better.


Quote:
"I don't know that we have a full appreciation of everything we are going to be able to do with the F-35 until we start to actually use it," Pawlikowski said.
Did he just steal a line from Pelosi's assessment of ObamaCare?

Hawg: Go Ugly Early!
__________________
"Civil Wars don't start when a few guys hunt down a specific bastard. Civil Wars start when many guys hunt down the nearest bastards."

The coin paid to enforce words on parchment is blood; tyrants will not be stopped with anything less dear. - QP Peregrino
Badger52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2015, 20:30   #8
sefryak
Quiet Professional
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMT View Post
I'm honestly shocked that the military was capable of adopting a piece of equipment that so perfectly met the needs of it's end users.
__________________
Is dócha nach bhfuil seans ar bith ann?
sefryak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 07:22   #9
BMT (RIP)
Quiet Professional
 
BMT (RIP)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
McCain Vows to 'Reverse' A-10 Retirement Process

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...tml?ESRC=eb.nl

BMT
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
BMT (RIP) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 07:24   #10
BMT (RIP)
Quiet Professional
 
BMT (RIP)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
General: F-35 Will Initially Lag Older Aircraft in Close Air Support

http://defensetech.org/2015/03/06/ge...e-air-support/

BMT
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
BMT (RIP) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 07:42   #11
Badger52
Area Commander
 
Badger52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western WI
Posts: 6,973
Quote:
So which weapons will the airplane initially carry? The Marine Corps’ F-35B will enter service with Block 2B software, which lets pilots fire a pair of AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missiles, AMRAAMs, or drop a pair of satellite-guided bombs or laser-guided weapons — not exactly the armament of choice for close-in missions.
So... a really expensive derringer.
__________________
"Civil Wars don't start when a few guys hunt down a specific bastard. Civil Wars start when many guys hunt down the nearest bastards."

The coin paid to enforce words on parchment is blood; tyrants will not be stopped with anything less dear. - QP Peregrino
Badger52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2015, 14:04   #12
BMT (RIP)
Quiet Professional
 
BMT (RIP)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
U.S. Air Force Pilots Said Retiring the A-10 Will Put Troops in Danger

“I can’t wait to be relieved of the burdens of close air support,” Maj. Gen. James Post, the vice commander of Air Combat Command, allegedly told a collection of officers at a training session in August 2014.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the...0-c1ed3c23e807

BMT
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
BMT (RIP) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2015, 13:18   #13
Combat Diver
Quiet Professional
 
Combat Diver's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC/Baghdad, Iraq
Posts: 474
If the Air Force doesn't want to abide by the Key West Agreement of 1947, Congress should take that portion of funding away from the USAF and give it back to the USA. I'm sure the Army will build and maintain an adequate CAS fix wing aircraft.


CD
Combat Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2015, 13:59   #14
MR2
Quiet Professional
 
MR2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 4,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Diver View Post
If the Air Force doesn't want to abide by the Key West Agreement of 1947, Congress should take that portion of funding away from the USAF and give it back to the USA. I'm sure the Army will build and maintain an adequate CAS fix wing aircraft.


CD
Using only transgendered pilots...
__________________
The two most powerful warriors are patience and time - Leo Tolstoy

It's Never Crowded Along the Extra Mile - Wayne Dyer


WOKE = Willfully Overlooking Known Evil
MR2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 09:38   #15
BMT (RIP)
Quiet Professional
 
BMT (RIP)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Red State
Posts: 3,774
Two-star fired for 'treason' rant against A-10 supporters

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/m...ents/25569181/



BMT
__________________
Don't mess with old farts...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bullshit and brilliance only come with age and experience.
BMT (RIP) is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:22.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies